2+2=evil?

[jstrike]

cleverly weaving their brands and offers into otherwise 'kosher' posts and blogs, or using their hosts to attack another information site where they may have fallen foul of the mods.

I don't think I've ever hidden the fact that I represent my own project, here or anywhere else. I'm not trying to be "sneaky" about it, I'm proud of my work. Says right here I'm a rep, and I think it's good for everyone else to know that, so they know my opinions about some things are gonna be biased. I don't get into conversations that criticize other casinos unless I can weigh in with real information, and I try to leave my personal opinions out of it.

CM is a forum where reps and players can interact for everyone's benefit. Putting the reps in front of the players, with fair rules and referees, adds to the sum total of self-regulation and responsibility in the industry -- including the not-yet-Accredited, Costa Rica, brand-new-site side of the industry, whose actions reflect on everybody, like it or not. I'm glad to have the chance to be down on the field, even if I'm just picking up bats. And I think it's a wise philosophy that accommodates the new and the unexpected rather than shunning it. For me, the complaints and thoughts I read in this forum literally dictated how a site should be built and how it should be run. I've gotten incredible amounts of valuable advice from both players and reps here, and I've translated that into my little league project in Bitcoin. I've never advertised, and moreover we have -zero- depositors who came to us from CM. There's no overlap between players here and Bitcoin. When we're ready to try out for the big leagues, we'll go through the appropriate process. But I really couldn't have made certain decisions without support and encouragement and criticism from this community.

Likewise, I learned a lot about poker law from talking with the lawyers on the 2+2 forums. And I dealt with a lot of necessary pessimism and disbelief that toughened me up, even though I never showed anyone there my project. Mainly, it convinced me not to take US players, a year before that decision was made obvious by the recent FT/PS shutdowns. But while 2+2 pretends to be many of the things this site is, it's actually not. Most of all, the instant I actually had a site open, it viewed me as a threat, and banned me without warning, as opposed to engaging in any kind of dialog about what rules I now needed to follow, let alone welcoming a new effort and offering constructive criticism about what I should improve on.

And I'm not trying to "use" CM as a base of attack against 2+2. I'm not launching ad hominem attacks on 2+2's owners. I made my case here about what they did to me, and why I think it was unfair. As far as I know, MM is the top and if he says you're out, you're out. 2+2 never told me otherwise. If there was a process to PAB about another forum here, I would have used that. As it is, I think it's a legitimate complaint, that's led to a good discussion here of what's acceptable and what isn't both as far as user behavior and the right (and wrong) ways for mods to deal with stuff they don't want on their sites.

I've been a mod in one form or another since I ran my first BBS in 1994. I'm not insensitive to the issues a mod faces. But I've never banned anyone without giving them a fair hearing. Especially if they were willing to accept they'd crossed a line and have the offending post deleted.

Whatever the rules are in a given forum, I'll abide by them. The problem is that there was nothing on there that indicated I'd be in trouble for posting what I did, because they don't advertise that it's all done on a payola system. And if that's all there was to it, why not just delete the offending post and send me an advertising cost sheet? Why the hostility? Why not just deal with the person who took the time to write these responses and who tried to set things straight?

Had there been warnings and/or communication with Jstrike, we probably would not be having this discussion.

We would definitely not be having this discussion if they'd dealt with me as a human being. I don't care if they want to remove my post. Or even if they can't have me on their site. The thing that put me over the edge and made me so mad was that they treated me like trash on top of it.

''date ban will be lifted: Never''. There was no 'please contact us to have this ban lifted and/or explained' message.

That's the same thing mine said.

Had jstrike not posted his experience mine would never have come to light here. I wonder if there are many others like us out there.

And...glad I did. A forum can be a place for healthy discussion and airing things out, bringing things to light...or it can be a plae where users are treated with no respect, and are just a commodity to be sold to advertisers. 2+2's like a bar I went to sometimes for a year and a half, but not my regular bar. It's a bar where people talk about gambling and other things. If I walked in there one night wearing a Hard Rock shirt and they threw me out and banned me for life because it turns out they had a secret arrangement with the Palms, first thing I'd probably do is go to my regular bar and tell people about it.

It turns out that at least a lot of my posts are still around. So people can see the whole history behind this. Nowhere did I mislead, and never did I say the name of my site or give a link to myself during over a year on the board. I ain't gonna post there again either way, but if there's some question that I'm misrepresenting how I acted there or what happened, then anyone can see for themselves what I wrote there:

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[IanO]

If you decide not to use the forum because one moderator made the wrong snap decision, then who's missing out? Worth putting this down to an accidental indiscretion I'd have thought.

If I feel (and I do) that a forum is more motivated by it's bottom line that providing the best service to it's members, then it's those members that are missing out, not me. I'll still keep an eye on the forum, but dont intend to actively participate or contribute, and will make sure I take everything I read with a pinch of salt. So I'm not really 'missing' anything myself. The mods actions did deny the other members the assistance of an active rep however.

I take your point though, and agree that it's possible to see this from both sides. I technically broke the rules, and those rules were enforced. Human nature is what it is, and people make mistakes in judgement. Myself and Jstrike are just a pair of dolphins in a tuna net. It's the way the rules were enforced and their initial reaction to an appeal that really bugged me.

 

[Simmo!]

By the way @Jstrike and @IanO: I hope you don't take my comments as aimed at you guys...not read the history on 2+2, just putting a view over And yes it is an interesting discussion.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I have as much love for spam as anyone else, and was posting as a rep to correct an error and open lines of communication. Now that I'm at a new IP I can get back on and have reviewed my post. I really dont think anyone could deem it 'commercial'. My punishment for trying to help was a pop up announcing a lifetime ban when I came back the following day. It clearly said:

''date ban will be lifted: Never''. There was no 'please contact us to have this ban lifted and/or explained' message.

The Mod could have changed my username (or requested I do so) as that was the reason they cited for my ban. (not for spamming or being abusive)
The Mod could have awarded me a temp ban or the infraction points pokeraddict mentioned.
The Mod could have left the posts following mine which explained why I was likely banned - but I was informed by another affiliate monitoring ther thread that they were simply deleted. Why their posts but not mine?
The mod could have posted in the thread themselves, explaining why I was 'temp-banned', so that people still accepted my post as genuine. The banning makes it look a lot less so imo.

In a forum with dozens of different mods caring for different areas I appreciate a central policy can be hard to maintain. Thats why common sense is so important a trait for any of the mods to possess. In both mine and JStrikes case it seems like the response by the mods was an over-reaction and in both cases was made more frustrating by the initial reply suggesting we resolve the issue by purchasing advertising.

Their responses and the way the whole matter was handled left me with little respect for the forum and unincliuned to participate there further, so I simply let the matter drop. Had jstrike not posted his experience mine would never have come to light here. I wonder if there are many others like us out there.

This seems designed to prevent the poster from figuring out why they got banned, or get any advice on how to appeal. A banned user can still view public threads, and this would be the most obvious place to look first for some kind of explanation.


Jstrike has a history of participating in that forum, and thus the mods would know that he is a regular contributor; yet he was life-banned for a minor violation of the rules, no warning, no "temporary vacation", all WITHIN the forum rules. It was an immediate use of the "last resort", supposedly reserved for the worst offenders.

It seems to show that the need to protect the income stream is by far the MOST important consideration at 2+2, and ensuring balanced discussion and "educating" members that cross the line is considered ONLY when it does not harm the income.

A forum that is a slave to the income stream can NEVER be unbiased, as it is vulnerable to "threats" from paying sponsors and advertisers who can say "do this.... or we will pull out".

The reps surely knew that Jstrike had his own project, yet failed to take the trouble to contact him with a "how to" when it came to participating in threads that concerned his own project.

It also appears that one cannot become an operator rep on 2+2 with an identifiable username unless payment is first made, a rule that is vigourously enforced regardless of the content of postings, even where the rep has only signed up to act as a point of contact with players, rather than to promote the brand. It seems to be a punishment for a crime you might do in the future because of your profile, rather than one you have already done (such as posting a blatant advert for the site in a post).

I am sure many used to argue that the CAP forum was a genuine free exchange of information, yet as it turned out the information was controlled by payments to the forum owners, and dissent against a paying program was silenced. Given what happened at CAP, it is easy to see the same underlying control structure apparent at 2+2 leading to potentially the same kind of problems as was seen at CAP, driven by numerous conflicts of interest. We just don't know what deals are done in private between 2+2 and sponsors, and the same was true of CAP, so we can't trust that 2+2 will escape such problems, whilst CAP was unable to.

 

[pokeraddict]

Out of curiosity I looked up jstrike's post history. I don't mod the forum where the post was so I don't know the context but I see that he did not have a post since January before that. I can see why the mod would not have given you the benefit of the doubt when your first post in 8 months was self promotional. I may have done the same thing and I have not banned anyone besides first post spammers in years.

If anyone feels slighted by how they were treated by a mod at 2+2 then go here:

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I have had mods of other forums come to me after I have banned or infracted someone and said "This poster is great in my forum, will you reconsider?" 100% of the time I have said yes. I would imagine most are that way.

 

[jetset]

It seems to me that comments like "You guys are the North Korea of gaming forums," other accusations made in post #16, and indeed the title you chose for this thread, constitute an attack as well as a complaint on your treatment, jstrike.

That said, and the reasons for the ban aside, I reiterate that judging by your account the manner in which you were banned could definitely have been improved, and hopefully pokeraddict will pass that on to his fellow mods at twoplustwo.

There clearly is an appeal procedure, although I think you may have prejudiced your chances of that being successful.