Winnings Denied By Top Casino. Unfair?

[ggray89]

Hi, I wanted to change casinos as the only one I was using had a bad reputation, so I followed a link to one of the top Casinos that are advertised on this site, got some luck, and finished their instant play bonus with about 350 profit. I called support to withdraw when they told me they also had a download casino bonus, so I deposited for that one too.

It's Boss software apparently. Anyway it kept on crashing and when I finally got it to work, it had automatically withdrawn my 400 deposit and I was only left with the 200 bonus in there. It wouldn't let me redeposit my 400 so I called support. They couldn't fix the problem, but said I could start with the wagering of the bonus, as I wouldn't be able to withdraw without completing their rollover anyway, so if I bust out later that week, I would have to redeposit to complete the rollover, by which time it might work. This all sounded logical so I continued to play.

Anyway I got some more luck and finished on several hundred after completing the rollover without having to redeposit.

After withdrawing I was told my instant play and download casino winnings had all been confiscated as I had broken their terms, and that only my inital deposit amount would be returned to me!

After complaining to their rep on this forum I was able to get my instant play winnings back. I offered to deposit and do the rollover again on the download if I could get my winnings back, but the rep said no.

I may be biased, but I think that I should at least be given another chance to complete the rollover, seeing as I done exactly as their support asked, and there was no way I could have gained an advantage by only playing the bonus, as I wouldn't have been able to withdraw any money until I completed their rollover anyway!

Am I right? Hardly a way to treat a new player? It was the only bit of luck I have had in 6 months of playing too!

 

[The Dude]

Please read the forum rules on posting complaints. Thank you.

 

[NewOrleans]

Here is why u should get ALL of your winnings

Take the free money just take it come on we know u want it lol
See the live chat operator offered you the 2nd bonus right ...They do keep records of live chat sessions therefor you could blame it on the live chat rep for making you break terms.If you would of claimed one bonus then downloaded the other one on your own to claim the other bonus which is probably against their terms it would of made a difference but seeing the live chat op sucked you into it this makes you exempt and your winnings should be paid to you unless you "bonus abused" but claiming the second bonus wouldn't be considered abuse since their live chat op told u to take it in this case the live chat op should get fired for not paying attention to the terms and conditions and you should get paid your money and this should not happen again. keep fighting and request that live chat session be looked upon

I know that I am right and they know they are wrong but the means being justified is up to you.

 

[ggray89]

Take the free money just take it come on we know u want it lol
See the live chat operator offered you the 2nd bonus right ...They do keep records of live chat sessions therefor you could blame it on the live chat rep for making you break terms.If you would of claimed one bonus then downloaded the other one on your own to claim the other bonus which is probably against their terms it would of made a difference but seeing the live chat op sucked you into it this makes you exempt and your winnings should be paid to you unless you "bonus abused" but claiming the second bonus wouldn't be considered abuse since their live chat op told u to take it in this case the live chat op should get fired for not paying attention to the terms and conditions and you should get paid your money and this should not happen again. keep fighting and request that live chat session be looked upon

I know that I am right and they know they are wrong but the means being justified is up to you.

Ok thanks.

I spoke to them on the phone, so not sure if they have a record of it.

I'm not sure what you mean by "bonus abused" If you mean claiming the bonus more than once, I haven't done that.

Well the second bonus is advertised on their site and I was fully eligible for it. The only problem they are saying is that I played with the bonus money and not my cash. But...

1. I wasn't able to deposit my cash after it automatically had taken it out of the download casino (I didn't withdraw it)
2. I was told to continue playing with it.
3. There was no possible advantage I could get by playing with it, as I had to complete their rollover regardless (as per their terms)

 

[ggray89]

Please read the forum rules on posting complaints. Thank you.

Sorry just read it.
I am not able to start a new thread in that forum. Can you move this thread?

 

[NewOrleans]

This section you posted in is not for casino complaints but this is a valid and most interesting complaint I would move it on top of the complaints section but not remove it

 

[bet4fun]

We have all been burned

Ok thanks.

I spoke to them on the phone, so not sure if they have a record of it.

I'm not sure what you mean by "bonus abused" If you mean claiming the bonus more than once, I haven't done that.

Well the second bonus is advertised on their site and I was fully eligible for it. The only problem they are saying is that I played with the bonus money and not my cash. But...

1. I wasn't able to deposit my cash after it automatically had taken it out of the download casino (I didn't withdraw it)
2. I was told to continue playing with it.
3. There was no possible advantage I could get by playing with it, as I had to complete their rollover regardless (as per their terms)

Nothing is perfect in this world, let alone online casinos. I have only been playing for about a year online and was burned a few times, number one it was money I could afford to lose and number two I just cut my losses and went on to the next casino, now I have my favorites and they have been good to me so far

 

[vinylweatherman]

Use the PAB service, there is enough to make it seem that incompetent CS mislead you into doing something you should not have done, and this was only possible because of a technical failure that was mishandled by the CS agent, resulting in the wrong advice being given.
The crediting of the bonus is very odd, since the deposit was not there, and this to me looks like some kind of technical failure.

The correct advice for CS to have given would have been to wait until the problem had been resolved, and the deposit credited BEFORE commencing play.

The "abuse" is that you have played and won with the bonus, but the casino didn't have your deposit in your account, so you could never have lost had play gone against you. You had a chance to win, but the casino didn't.

To gain the right to post in complaints you need to be an established member here. There is an exact list of criteria needed, and I believe it is one month membership, 50 rep points, and 10 posts. I cannot off-hand find this, but I believe it is in the email sent to confirm your registration to the forum.

 

[ggray89]

The "abuse" is that you have played and won with the bonus, but the casino didn't have your deposit in your account, so you could never have lost had play gone against you. You had a chance to win, but the casino didn't.

Thanks for your reply, but this isn't strictly correct.

My money was in my account all along, just not in their download casino software (by no choice of mine) If I lost the 200 bonus, I would have had to put more money into their download casino as their terms say I am not allowed to withdraw any of my money until I had completed their rollover.

So it made no difference whatsoever whether my money was in there or not.

Went to PAB, but then found the rep on here who dealt with my issue. Shall I PAB again? Would this site let me PAB about Bwin?

 

[vinylweatherman]

Thanks for your reply, but this isn't strictly correct.

My money was in my account all along, just not in their download casino software (by no choice of mine) If I lost the 200 bonus, I would have had to put more money into their download casino as their terms say I am not allowed to withdraw any of my money until I had completed their rollover.

So it made no difference whatsoever whether my money was in there or not.

Went to PAB, but then found the rep on here who dealt with my issue. Shall I PAB again? Would this site let me PAB about Bwin?

If you are happy with how the rep dealt with this, then no need to PAB. There is no reason NOT to PAB if you are not happy that support got you into this mess in the first place, by giving you the wrong advice, and telling you something was OK when it was not. If you could not withdraw the deposit in any case, until all WR were met, then there is no clear case for abuse. There would be an exploit if you could play the bonus, but somehow not have your deposit held to WR if you failed. I am not familiar with how the Bwin system works, but it seems overly confusing, and you shouldn't get into trouble for not understanding it if CS didn't understand it sufficiently to give you the correct advice.

 

[bwin]

Hi,

I have to say that I am a bit surprised about your posting here GGray, because the last message I sent you was on April 3 and I never received a reply - but now I have to see your thread here - started about 2 weeks later and bringing the topic to the public.

I am more than happy to share details about this case with the casinomeister reps and I am certain they will acknowledge that bwin treated you in a more than fair way and was actually quite generous. The fact that you violated the terms and conditions of the Download Casino Welcome Bonus without knowing is no excuse, but we only took away the illegitimately gained bonus winnings from the Download Casino and refunded you your deposits and the winnings from the Instant Play Casino, reopened your account and asked if this is a satisfactory solution for you. The feedback I get now, 2 weeks later, is this thread

regards,

Ben

 

[vinylweatherman]

Hi,

I have to say that I am a bit surprised about your posting here GGray, because the last message I sent you was on April 3 and I never received a reply - but now I have to see your thread here - started about 2 weeks later and bringing the topic to the public.

I am more than happy to share details about this case with the casinomeister reps and I am certain they will acknowledge that bwin treated you in a more than fair way and was actually quite generous. The fact that you violated the terms and conditions of the Download Casino Welcome Bonus without knowing is no excuse, but we only took away the illegitimately gained bonus winnings from the Download Casino and refunded you your deposits and the winnings from the Instant Play Casino, reopened your account and asked if this is a satisfactory solution for you. The feedback I get now, 2 weeks later, is this thread

regards,

Ben

GGray seems to be alleging it was your CS giving the wrong advice that caused the problem. Players should be able to rely on what CS tell them - this is the mark of a good casino. We do, however, only have a detailed account from one side in this, and in order for you as the rep to give your balancing view you would need the permission of GGray to share details of what actually happened, and in what order.

How exactly did a bonus managed to get credited in the download casino with no matching deposit? This looks like some kind of technical error, yet GGray alleges CS said to "start with the wagering of the bonus" rather than hold off.
Earlier, GGray says support mentioned there was also a download bonus. If GGray was no eligible for this, having played the instant one, why would CS be mentioning this at all, as surely there would be the danger the player would take this as an invitation.

If there are records kept of these calls, they should throw light on what was said, and when.

Whilst Bwin do not allow the taking of both the instant and download bonuses, this is by no means standard, and each casino has different rules, and it is the responsibility of CS to answer questions correctly, and if they do not know, say so. Given the nature of what lead up to this, the software crashes and vanishing of the deposit, this looks like a situation of CS not knowing the answer, but trying to bluff their way through rather than refer the matter to tech support.

The Bwin solution may well be more than fair when it comes to dealing with the wrongful use of the download bonus after already playing the instant one, it was Bwin CS that mentioned the download casino as having the bonus, and then adding it to the account. This was compounded by what seems to be the way CS handled an unusual technical problem that lead not only to the bonus being credited, but the deposit being removed from being at risk and CS saying it was OK to play "risk free" with the bonus.

Misunderstandings like this can be the downfall of any business, and angry customers who feel wronged, and cannot seem to make progress through normal channels will often resort to going public. There is the risk now that a few other agrieved players will jump in with their own simmering issues, spurred by one player having set the ball rolling.

There is a tendency for businesses who treat customers badly to suddenly "see the light" once an issue goes public, and this behaviour, repeated over the years, has taught consumers that often the best path to redress IS to go public with an issue, be that to a Television consumer program, or one of the bigger internet meeting places for like minded consumers of the product. Consumer empowerment has, in some cases, reached the stage where the tables have been turned, and consumers can blackmail or "screw over" businessess. Consumers and providers in businessess that have no real regulation for the most part are particularly vulnerable to rogue behaviour on each side of the relationship.

 

[bwin]

Hi,

Just for clarification: we do allow to get both, the Instant Play AND the Download Casino bonus, but to release each of them you have to wager real money and meet 2 different wagering requirements - like clearly stated in the terms and conditions of these two bonuses. So the advice regarding the Download Casino Bonus was correct, but the customer should be self responsible enough to also check the terms of conditions of that second bonus as well before he starts using it. I think there is no point in reading the terms and conditions of a bonus to customers over the phone.


So GGray did obviously not read/understand the Download Casino welcome bonus terms and conditions, because if she did, there would never have been a "problem".

And the fact that she went public with this does not change anything in our position and casinomeister reps can access my PMs whenever they want to follow the conversation I had with GGray and verify that bwin was very cooperative in sorting this out. But instead of getting back to my last PM (were it looked that we sorted it out and she was quite happy with the way we handled it), GGray decided to get public in the forum - 2 weeks later.

I will not publish any more details about this incident here - but I am more than happy to share all the information I have with a casinomeister rep and let them decide wheter bwin did something wrong or not.

Regards,

Ben

 

[vinylweatherman]

Hi,

Just for clarification: we do allow to get both, the Instant Play AND the Download Casino bonus, but to release each of them you have to wager real money and meet 2 different wagering requirements - like clearly stated in the terms and conditions of these two bonuses. So the advice regarding the Download Casino Bonus was correct, but the customer should be self responsible enough to also check the terms of conditions of that second bonus as well before he starts using it. I think there is no point in reading the terms and conditions of a bonus to customers over the phone.


So GGray did obviously not read/understand the Download Casino welcome bonus terms and conditions, because if she did, there would never have been a "problem".

And the fact that she went public with this does not change anything in our position and casinomeister reps can access my PMs whenever they want to follow the conversation I had with GGray and verify that bwin was very cooperative in sorting this out. But instead of getting back to my last PM (were it looked that we sorted it out and she was quite happy with the way we handled it), GGray decided to get public in the forum - 2 weeks later.

I will not publish any more details about this incident here - but I am more than happy to share all the information I have with a casinomeister rep and let them decide whether bwin did something wrong or not.
Regards,

Ben

GGray - to pursue this, you can go through the PAB (Pitch a Bitch) process, which is effectively what Bwin are suggesting.

One thing that I am not entirely happy with based on what has been made public is the fact that Bwin APPEAR to be making it the customer's responsibility to understand what their CS do not when it comes to terms and conditions. I disagree, the customer should READ them, but where clarification is needed, or problems encountered where the software does NOT follow what the T & C say it should, then it is the responsibilty of CS to CLEARLY advise the player as to how to proceed. NO casino whose CS cannot correctly understand the rules cannot expect the player to be able to.

If I contact CS at a casino on a matter, I EXPECT to be given the correct advice, and if CS screw up by giving INcorrect advise, I expect the CASINO to take the hit, not me. For this reason, GGray should PAB so that a full investigation can take place, and Max can see the WHOLE issue as it unfolded, not just the selected, and potentially biased, highlights presented here by GGray.

Bwin must also take a look at the technical issues experienced by GGray, so that if other players experience them, correct and helpful advice can be given. Ordinary players often do not have the expertise to correct these issues, and Microsoft simply will NOT assist, all they will do is blame the software vendor, and leave it up to them. Microsoft are often wrong though, and in many cases it is a bug in Windows, but it can be a devil of a job tracking it down, as only a small number of specific configurations may be affected, and it may also be down to software conflicts.

It once took me MONTHS to figure out a bug with Microgaming software, but I got there BEFORE Microgaming did I don't put much energy into Playtech bugs though, because it seems 99% of them "hate" British players, so I don't play any Playtech casinos at present.

 

[ggray89]

And the fact that she went public with this does not change anything in our position and casinomeister reps can access my PMs whenever they want to follow the conversation I had with GGray and verify that bwin was very cooperative in sorting this out.

I'm not denying that, thanks for your help, I just didn't agree with your outcome, hence my pm's to you saying I should at least be given another chance to do your rollover, with my winnings so far.

But instead of getting back to my last PM (were it looked that we sorted it out and she was quite happy with the way we handled it)

The PM conversation had finished, I had stated my position clearly - That I felt I had been treated unfairly - and your last message to me was "This is the absolute maximum I can do for you and actually it is already more than we normally do." It was quite clear we had disagreed on the outcome and there was nothing more to add as far as I was concerned, as your position was quite clear

GGray decided to get public in the forum - 2 weeks later.

Again, there was nothing more to add, therefore I'm not sure what your problem is with me posting my experiences in the forum. Isn't that what the forum is for? For people to decide for themselves? I'm not sure why you have a problem with this anyway if you feel you have acted fairly.
Also, I didn't mention your casinos name until I had got some feedback from other forum members regarding my issue, as I was unsure whether my obvious biased was effecting my judgement. All I can say is though, is that I have posted all the facts exactly how it happened.

It looks like other forum members agree I have been treated unfairly.

The feedback I get now, 2 weeks later, is this thread

Sorry, do you not like open discussions about your casinos practices? Looks like you get a lot of publicity through this site, what's wrong with members having all the information regarding how you operate? It may help some people to not make the same 'mistake' I made too, so I don't see what the problem is..

The fact that you violated the terms and conditions of the Download Casino Welcome Bonus without knowing is no excuse

So if you sneaked in a term saying "Players now have to jump through 5 hoops before being paid out" Do you think this would be enforceable? Common sense prevails over terms and conditions. Bank penalty charges are in the banks terms and conditions, but thousands of people are claiming them back as they are unlawful/unfair.

As I stated before, I may have breached your terms in the strictest sense, but...
1. I never withdrew any money from your download casino, it was automatically done when it crashed - Please check your records.
2. I was told to play on by your customer service - Please check your records
3. It has been proven there was no advantage from me playing with your bonus, as I had to complete your rollover anyway.

 

[bwin]

Hi,

I have no problems with an open discussion, but I don't want to share all details about your gaming behavior with the public, which should also be in your interest - and this is also not how complaints/PIB here normally works.

As a final sign of good will I credited you your intial welcome bonus of 200 euro again. which must be wagered 40 times (normally it is 20 times deposit+bonus) which is lower than the normal wagering requirements.

I hope that closes this case. The reason why I am doing this, is that I can not tell wheter our customer support gave you a misleading information or not.

Kr,

Benjamin

 

[ggray89]

Hi,

I have no problems with an open discussion, but I don't want to share all details about your gaming behavior with the public, which should also be in your interest - and this is also not how complaints/PIB here normally works.

As a final sign of good will I credited you your intial welcome bonus of 200 euro again. which must be wagered 40 times (normally it is 20 times deposit+bonus) which is lower than the normal wagering requirements.

I hope that closes this case. The reason why I am doing this, is that I can not tell wheter our customer support gave you a misleading information or not.

Kr,

Benjamin

Ok thanks.
I don't mind people knowing about my gaming behaviour. If this thread highlights what can go wrong at casinos to just one person and prevents them from making a mistake, then it will be worth it.

It's not exactly what I feel I was entitled to, as I would have won that money even without the bonus, I was several hundred up, bonus or no bonus.

Nethertheless, thanks for your help, I am prepared to draw a line under it now and I will continue to use your casino.

Thanks

 

[jerrylee]

Hi,

I have no problems with an open discussion, but I don't want to share all details about your gaming behavior with the public, which should also be in your interest - and this is also not how complaints/PIB here normally works.

As a final sign of good will I credited you your intial welcome bonus of 200 euro again. which must be wagered 40 times (normally it is 20 times deposit+bonus) which is lower than the normal wagering requirements.

I hope that closes this case. The reason why I am doing this, is that I can not tell wheter our customer support gave you a misleading information or not.

Kr,

Benjamin

bwin, when you slammed ggray89 earlier I gave a thanks because I was thinking, finally a casino rep who tells it like it is and calls out a potential fraudster (bonus abuser I bet). I'm kind of disappointed you went soft on the player under public pressure
Oh well...

 

[Pinababy69]

bwin, when you slammed ggray89 earlier I gave a thanks because I was thinking, finally a casino rep who tells it like it is and calls out a potential fraudster (bonus abuser I bet). I'm kind of disappointed you went soft on the player under public pressure
Oh well...

Potential fraudster/bonus abuser? Fraudulent players and advantage players are two entirely different things, if that's what you're referring to when you use the term bonus abuser. I seriously doubt that if the OP were a fraudulent player, Bwin would have credited the 200 for him to have another go at clearing the bonus. To imply that the Ggray is a fraudulent player is way over the top. You continually make generalized posts that defend casinos and slam players....which casino exactly do you work for? You've hinted before that you are employed "within the industry"...if you are a casino rep, why aren't you listed as such here on the forum?

Perhaps Ggray is an advantage player, but bottom line (if his facts are true), he was told by CS to play on......and being an advantage player does NOT make him guilty of fraud. Come on..get real.

 

[RobWin]

bwin, when you slammed ggray89 earlier I gave a thanks because I was thinking, finally a casino rep who tells it like it is and calls out a potential fraudster (bonus abuser I bet). I'm kind of disappointed you went soft on the player under public pressure
Oh well...

Potential fraudster/bonus abuser? Fraudulent players and advantage players are two entirely different things, if that's what you're referring to when you use the term bonus abuser. I seriously doubt that if the OP were a fraudulent player, Bwin would have credited the 200 for him to have another go at clearing the bonus. To imply that the Ggray is a fraudulent player is way over the top. You continually make generalized posts that defend casinos and slam players....which casino exactly do you work for? You've hinted before that you are employed "within the industry"...if you are a casino rep, why aren't you listed as such here on the forum?

Perhaps Ggray is an advantage player, but bottom line (if his facts are true), he was told by CS to play on......and being an advantage player does NOT make him guilty of fraud. Come on..get real.

I totally agree Pina, jerrylee has a history here of these types of posts and I myself have also questioned his motives about such before, only to have him disappear for another month or so with never bothering to answer. Also jerrylee your comment regarding "ggray89" being a "potential fraudster" was totally uncalled for here especially after you had obviously read the Bwin Reps response and I believe you owe her an apology!

Also jerrylee, I believe that your comment, "potential fraudster" regarding ggray89 could also be considered as flaming toward the OP. I also do not believe that the Bwin Rep "slammed" the OP as you state either. No professional Casino Rep would want to be viewed in that regard on a public forum as popular as Casinomeister, as to publicly "slamming" their own players.