Winner Casino is not paying. Who played recently?

[dresden]

Since it was only BJ that seems to be a problem, was there a really obvious mistake with the paytable? (that could give the player the advantage they claimed).

If you are asking if a dealt blackjack paid 2:1 or something the answer is no. I noticed nothing strange when I was playing.

 

[boobear]

bad casino

I received the same email along with a $25 amazon.com gift certificate. Big deal that does not replace the $925 in winnings That weren't paid to me. WOnder what can be done?

 

[spearmaster]

9. RESERVATION OF RIGHTS

9.1 We reserve, at our sole discretion, the right to:
9.1.2 refuse to accept any wager on the Online Casino;

9.3 In the event of any dispute regarding a wager or winnings, our decision will be final and binding.

9.1.2 is entirely irrelevant - they already accepted the wagers. If they want to refuse to accept a wager they should do it before the wager occurs - what they are now doing is refusing to accept the RESULT of a wager.

9.3 is the coverass term that every casino probably has - and it should be applied VERY sparingly - otherwise as soon as the casino says "I don't like your play" or "I don't like the fact that you won" they have the right to not pay and the decision will be final and binding? I don't think so.

As a programmer, I can tell you that it is not that difficult to program a blackjack game - and they admitted that they KNEW the software was corrupt, but allowed it to run anyhow. They should thus be fully responsible for the results - and they should also have been monitoring the situation from the very first minute, not waiting more than a week to fix it.

I need to see more data and information - but based on what I have seen here, I am not satisfied with the explanation. And I am not affected at all by this issue as I am neither player nor affiliate so everyone can rest assured that I will call it like I see it (as if I ever called an issue any other way... LOL...)

 

[sirius]

I have gone through this thread looking for the obvious point that I made not long ago on this forum when I noticed Casino4Aces in the redemption section. The point nobody has mentioned is that Casino4Aces and winner.com are definitely related to CasinoBar which was proven by wizardofodds to have been using rigged software. Casinomeister was saying they had new owners who he has met. Now it's also revealed they owned Playtech casinos in the past. Which Playtech casinos were these?

What's incredible is that this explanation is obviously bogus as any corruption would normally lead to the game not working at all and would not possibly have given any unnoticeable player advantage unless the game was rigged in the first place to be adjustable. These casinos have been dumped for years on my site but I've had at least two advertising submissions on my site from these people requesting to advertise on my site in the last few months!

I wrote this in another thread not long ago:

Casino4Aces is definitely a rogue operation despite you knowing the owners. They have the same registrant address, same servers and same affiliate program as casinobar. The affiliate program is at www.winneraffiliates.com and only features casinoonair, casinobar and casino4aces. Winner is the newest name for them, it seems.

They have gone to strange lengths to hide their past in the matter of a few months since I posted the message about them (this was some months after Casinomeister met the 'new' owners). I mentioned winneraffiliates.com only featured their casinos including Casinobar but now that rogued casino is missing from the affiliate program and also the affiliate site now redirects to winneraffiliate.com instead of winneraffiliates.com! What was the point of missing the s? They have now tried to move away from their bad reputation by using another name for their casino (using 'for' instead of '4' in the name) but these names, including casinofouraces too, were registered many years ago. They are just choosing to use another name. They are still on the same servers as Casinobar!

 

[Linus]

You must be kidding! These are the terms that **watches words carefully** casinos-which-don't-rank-at-the-very-tippity-top-for-stellar-performance-and-general-player-satisfaction use to disallow winnings. We all know, and have for a long time, that this clause is disregardable as it applies to casinos which DON'T fall into the above bracket. If and when such a casino were to unjustly apply it, into that bracket will they go.

You will never see an honest casino unfairly implementing that term. Something is clearly up here.

Casino T&C's are caricatures of real-world contracts. They're not anything that would be upheld in any real-world legal system. But it doesn't matter, because casinos don't operate in the real world, or in any legal system whatsoever.

What's really going on is that casinos can keep all your winnings at any time, for any reason, because they operate outside the rule of law. Not because they put a phoney "we can do whatever we want" condition in their T&C's, that somehow makes it "legal."

The "we can do anything we want" T&C describes what happens when you send off your money to an unregulated internet casino. That's all.

The only protection players have is to blacklist/refuse to play at casinos that actually use this condition.

Otherwise, players may as well give up the ghost, and just accept that they're the casino's bitches.

BTW, I forgot to mention - by reading this post, you agreed to give me your unborn children.

Have a nice day!

 

[chesterp]

I can't believe this is happening. They are stealing $4000 from me. In return, no explanation of what the glitch was, and a $25 gift certificate. wtf!
before, i'd never cashed out at either casino, but was down $1000. are they going to give that back? no. when the casino had an advantage, it was perfectly normal for them to make $1000 off me. but when i supposedly had the advantage, my $4000 profit is voided.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Game Logs?

Can players get the Blackjack game logs for the disputed period?

If so, I would suggest cut & paste away to preserve the evidence. If the casino comes up with an excuse, but "accidentally" loses the play logs, it will be possible to analyse them to see if there really was an advantage situation due to subtle rule errors. The logs should then be tested collectively to see if the rigged qualities exposed by the wizard are evident in the card falls, but were weighted (rigged), too lightly for the rules.

I would find a lack of a damn good explanation reason enough to repopen the long standing question of "is the BJ random or is **** casino cheating?"

The fact that the software is proprietry also makes it hard to restore trust after this, as no corroberation is possible. (how the &*^% do you spell correberation! )

 

[Pinababy69]

(how the &*^% do you spell correberation! )

Corroboration....you were close.

 

[GrandMaster]

(how the &*^% do you spell correberation! )

Type it into google and it will helpfully suggest "Did you mean: corroberation".

 

[thelawnet]

They are the same as Casino4aces, which last April CM said:

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/casino4aces-warning.7728/?mode=threaded

Casino4aces.com is one to avoid - emails are bouncing - complaints have been filed concerning accusations of player fraud and glitchy software.

Oops - just realized they are connected to Casinobar/casino-on-air. They should be in the rogue section.

Avoid at all costs...

(they have not been added to the rogue list unfortunately)

They have been ripping people off for two years or more
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/casino4aces-doesnt-pay.3421/
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/casino4aces-com.3855/
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/casino4aces-got-me-real-good.4982/

Casino4Aces we then know is crooked. No question.

And who owns Casino4Aces?

Why, none other than Winner Casino

Link Removed (Old/Invalid)
Link Removed (Old/Invalid)

So they are crooks.

They are linked to crooked software:

Link Outdated / Removed

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

https://www.casinomeister.com/rogue-casinos/

What has happened is a number of bonus hunters hit the site's bonus, all playing blackjack, as bonus hunters will tend to do.

This site's bonus was posted to rpoints on March 13th. This would have caused quite a few bonus hunters to sign up, and play blackjack. Other bonus hunters complaining: Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

So they decide that the software was faulty March 14th-21st, void their winnings, and since they appear to be using cheating software, the next step for them is obvious.

The explanation of corrupted software is risible. Corrupted software would not work at all, or give errors. It would not magically start paying the player too much. Why should we believe the word of a casino already described by Bryan as rogue when the explanation looks and smells like bullshit?

You'd be mad to play at this place when it's abundantly clear that it is bent.

For the players who have had your winnings reset, I fear the next step is to lose the balances returned to your account.

Let us know how it goes.

 

[thelawnet]

Just in case anyone was wondering:

Casino 4 Aces.com this new casino is really not in the "cool" category because it is being operated from the notorious Casino Bar and Casino On Air servers out of Nicosia in Cyprus. The 14 game download and Flash software appears to be the same although the owners are listed as Cyprus based Alpinia Limited. There's a VIP Club loyalty program, 24/7 tollfreed Support and a range of financial options that includes PrePaid ATM, NetTeller, Firepay and 900Pay. Interestingly they are offering a thirty percent High Roller Bonus, a matchplay signup of 30 percent up to a max of $300 on first deposits below $400 and $1 000 max on first deposits above that. With a 15 percent D and B wagerthru' requirement! A further ten percent is available on all future deosits subject to the same x15 wagerthru'. 20 percent of the first deposit of all referred friends is also available. Generally an average site at best, but the experienced players will avoid it due to the Casinobar reputation.

This was January 2003, https://www.casinomeister.com/static/news/january2003.html

And here's a good quote I found

since my last post here i have lost consistantly at this place to the point where i decided never to do them again.

it is also noted that their software Alpinia is manipulateable.

Manipulateable = RIGGED.

You cannot manipulate the payout of blackjack. It comes from the rules you choose to implement.

It's well documented that they can turn the riggedness on and off, from the CasinoOnAir case, so they might be telling the truth in terms of setting the payout wrong, as they do appear to be running crooked software that lets you set the payout.

So there are actually three plausible scenarios:

1. casino accidentally set payout too high (>100%). Conclusion casino is crooked and rigged - fair software CANNOT have a payout adjusted for table games. But they would be telling the truth - they did do something to the software, and that something was setting the payout too high, but this in itself is damning proof that they are crooks.
2. casino accidentally didn't rip off the players, and set payout at 99%+ instead of a lower amount. Conclusion, as above, the software is manipulateable, casino is crooked.
3. casino does not cheat most of the time, but the influx of bonus hunters annoyed them and they need to reset their balances and flick the cheat switch.

Whatever way you look at it, this casino is a dump. Note that casino4aces is actually in the rogue section, but under observation.

It's pretty fair to say that this debacle should send them both into permanent roguedom.

 

[caruso]

What has happened is a number of bonus hunters hit the site's bonus, all playing blackjack, as bonus hunters will tend to do.

This site's bonus was posted to rpoints on March 13th. This would have caused quite a few bonus hunters to sign up, and play blackjack.

So they decide that the software was faulty March 14th-21st, void their winnings, and since they appear to be using cheating software, the next step for them is obvious.

That's a very neat little bit of detective work - that the software became "faulty" exactly ONE DAY after the rpoints posting is a laughable coincidence.

I agree, the conclusions are obvious: cheat-switch off (proven possible), casino gets hit up by BHers so resets all balances and rams the cheat-switch into top gear.

Not that any of this matters much, since we now know this is a CasinoBar operation. This is the most famously notorious casino group one out there.

 

[dresden]

I guess I don't know enough about the casino industry. Here are some questions:

1. Casinoforaces was supposedly owned by new people. The software was newly designed, I was informed. Couldn't the new owners simply have purchased the name? It's not really the same name either as Casino4aces. Unless in the past the name Casinoforaces.com was in play. I don't know....

2. Why would a casino have cheating software but not implement it always? To attract customers and then to turn it on after they had a base? As a safety precaution against to many winners?

3. Former Playtech people own this place from what CM says. I wish I had known that beforehand but that is neither here nor there. In any case, though some Playtechs have some history of trying to wriggle out of payment based on their own unique T&C understandings, I've never heard of Playtech software being rigged, as is the speculation in this case. I know this software isn't Playtech but it would seem an odd departure for Playtech people to start a casino and decide to concoct cheating software. Or maybe I'm naive....

Edit: I see thelawnet answered most of #2 in a post a couple above.

Edit #2: And would a truly dirtbag operation be sending out apology $25 gift certificates? Though it's a token and represents the cash value of 1.5% of my casino winnings, it seems like a scam site wouldn't even bother. This is not to say I am in any way happy out receiving one.

 

[adha]

Edit #2: And would a truly dirtbag operation be sending out apology $25 gift certificates? Though it's a token and represents the cash value of 1.5% of my casino winnings, it seems like a scam site wouldn't even bother. This is not to say I am in any way happy out receiving one.

Have you tried the $25 gift certificate though? Mine does not work, nor will they let me cash out my original $100 yet.

 

[kenneth2816]

It's pretty fair to say that this debacle should send them both into permanent roguedom.


Thelawnet:

let us hope so.

 

[The Dude]

I guess I don't know enough about the casino industry. Here are some questions:

1. Casinoforaces was supposedly owned by new people. The software was newly designed, I was informed. Couldn't the new owners simply have purchased the name? It's not really the same name either as Casino4aces. Unless in the past the name Casinoforaces.com was in play. I don't know....

Casino4aces - casinofouraces - it's all the same thing. These are all run by Win Technologies, all on the same server. Licensed in Curacao

2. Why would a casino have cheating software but not implement it always? To attract customers and then to turn it on after they had a base? As a safety precaution against to many winners?

I don't think that in this case it's a situation of cheating software. I tend to believe it was a major screwup. Games such as blackjack are easy to write, and there are a number of people out there that keep companies like this in check. Michael Shakelford for one (who did the original expose of COA). In most cases, software that is considered "cheating" is simply poorly designed. Most experienced casino operators know that they have the edge in the long run. There is no need to cheat anyone. Long term satisfied players are a casino's dream, this is where the bread and butter lie.

But then, there are always the exceptions...

3. Former Playtech people own this place from what CM says. I wish I had known that beforehand but that is neither here nor there. In any case, though some Playtechs have some history of trying to wriggle out of payment based on their own unique T&C understandings, I've never heard of Playtech software being rigged, as is the speculation in this case. I know this software isn't Playtech but it would seem an odd departure for Playtech people to start a casino and decide to concoct cheating software. Or maybe I'm naive...

One thing about this industry is that it's somewhat like a plate full of speghetti. You have ex-crypto people working at Playtech establishments, you have Playtech at MG. You have ex-MG people working Crypto and Playtech. You have some people working for a number of places and move around a lot. It's incestuous at times.

This software has nothing to do with Playtech. The operators have a pretty high profile in the industry and would have a lot to lose if anything scandalous would occur. This is why I tend to believe it was a major screwup and not something done on purpose.

 

[dresden]

OK CM. Thanks for that.


Perhaps the most scandalous parts of this situation then are the acclerating machinations by spurned players who grasp recklessly in the dark for ANY reasonable explanation. People naturally will assume the worst when nobody will talk to them.

Are they talking to you at least?

 

[thelawnet]

OK CM. Thanks for that.


Perhaps the most scandalous parts of this situation then are the acclerating machinations by spurned players who grasp recklessly in the dark for ANY reasonable explanation. People naturally will assume the worst when nobody will talk to them.

Are they talking to you at least?

The spurned players just seem to want their money. The people suggesting the casino is not above board are not the players.

 

[dresden]

You're saying this place is 100% rogue, right? Casinomeister is saying the people involved are established and have their reps. at stake. I just want to know the truth.

I'm a player. I want my money. I also want to know if this place is a scam. I don't think they are mutually exclusive.

 

[thelawnet]

You're saying this place is 100% rogue, right? Casinomeister is saying the people involved are established and have their reps. at stake. I just want to know the truth.

CM has said they are rogue on several occasions before, as I posted, whether that has changed I don't know. The case for them doesn't look too good.

 

[jetset]

The deception that appears to be ongoing here convinces me that there is a strong rogue element at work, and I have a definite perception now that the casino is not being completely honest.

The speculation on the possible reasons for the casino wanting to *reset* everyone are at present just that; there probably was bonus hunting action, but we do not at present know that for sure or that it was the motivation for the casino's action. Nevertheless, I think it was good sleuthing on thelawnet's part to put the two together, and it is certainly a possibility.

What we do know is that:

1) There are definite associations with Winner Holdings and Casino On Air and Alpinia, and anything to do with Casino on Air/ Casino Bar has to be looked at with great suspicion bearing in mind the shocking history this crowd have.

2) It looks to me as if this is not a case of new owners and new software at all, or is at best an updated iteration of the old Casino Bar proprietary software. There is also a strong liklihood that the COA folks are still the ones pulling the strings of managers who have perhaps innocently (perhaps not) failed to disclose the full ownership, history and detail here.

3) There is insufficient detail on the alleged software fault and its effects for us to be sure (and shame on the casino for not coming forward with that) that the casino is telling the truth regarding the reason for the re-set of player accounts. Almost unanimously, those in the forum with the requisite technical knowledge have doubts about the casino's claims. The antecedents of this group would immediately make me suspicious, though and perhaps that is why this is not being disclosed.

4) The operators worked for a Playtech operation at one time (Club Dice) That does not mean that Playtech is involved in the present mess.

5) The T&C's that the casino claims justify it's action are tenuous and indicative of a lack of real cause and evidence. The dependence on that catch-all clause alone casts them in a bad light and fuels suspicion.

For me, this all points to a very bad pattern of behaviour on the casino's part and that will impact their business. It is not too late for the management to conduct a pragmatic re-assessment of their position and the right course of action regarding their players.

But time is running out.....

 

[jetset]

Interesting edit

That's an interesting edit - why would these *managers* be so nervous about having their forenames mentioned???

 

[The Dude]

That's an interesting edit - why would these *managers* be so nervous about having their forenames mentioned???

I don't know, but as a moderator (and administrator) I felt obliged to honor their request.

 

[wernerw]

I received mail from Taylor Waters. I asked him to:
- let me withdraw my money
- tell me based on which term they refuse to pay my winnings and
- tell me what kind of bug there was.

He transferred the money back to my Neteller account and it is already there. So at least they did not steal my deposit (something that was already suspected here in this thread).

He also told me that the action taken was justified by term 4.4.
4.4 WE DO NOT WARRANT THAT THE SOFTWARE WILL BE NON-INFRINGING OR THAT THE OPERATION OF THE SOFTWARE WILL BE ERROR FREE OR UNINTERRUPTED OR THAT ANY DEFECTS IN THE SOFTWARE WILL BE CORRECTED, OR THAT THE SOFTWARE OR THE SERVERS ARE VIRUS-FREE. IN THE EVENT OF COMMUNICATIONS OR SYSTEM ERRORS OCCURING IN CONNECTION WITH THE SETTELMENT OF ACCOUNTS OR OTHER FEATURES OR COMPONENTS OF THE SOFTWARE WE WILL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU OR TO ANY THIRD PARTY FOR ANY COSTS, EXPENSES, LOSSES OR CLAIMS ARISING RESULTING FROM SUCH ERRORS. WE FURTHER RESERVE THE RIGHT IN THE EVENT OF SUCH ERRORS TO REMOVE ALL RELEVANT GAMES FROM THE SOFTWARE AND THE WEBSITE AND TAKE ANY OTHEHR ACTION TO CORRECT SUCH ERRORS.

I think the relevant part in their eyes is the one I put in bold. My opinion however is that there was no system error and of course no communication error. It was a normal software bug. System error as a technical term does not include such bugs.

And he simply ignored my question about the nature of the bug.

So, I have my money back and will personally give up unless of course there is any news here.

 

[jetset]

I suspect that they are hoping that the majority of winning players prejudiced by this affair will do just that - give up and be content with their deposits being returned as a "better than a kick in the ass" solution.

The way I see this, players had monies in their accounts which they had legitimately won and regardless of the alleged software glitch these should be paid.

There is still no detail from this *new* operator on the glitch so that the many IT experts on the forum can make a judgement, and I find their T&C argument doubtful.

I have to say that in my opinion this management is exhibiting an alarming short view mentality that could cost them dearly. COA has already been in the spotlight with its software over the Wizard's assessments of it, and their legal tactics at that time will long be remembered. Now we have another software issue where players have lost out.

That doesn't leave these casinos with an attractive reputation for either software or looking after their players, and in the long term that will have repercussions that they may not like.