UK analogue industry under threat?

[kidgloves]

When I read this I had to double check is wasn't April 1st. If this becomes reality the UKGC will have gone way beyond the line and killed off a large portion of the UK provision.

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[Webzcas]

Well if this is truly the case, arcades up and down the country will be left with a load of machines that they will no longer be able to use.

Complete madness if you ask me.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Honestly, I'm torn on this. What we're talking about here are compensated machines from the 'bad old days' of near enough wild west style 'regulation' (such as it wasn't), many of these machines are running code that's 20, 30 or even 40 years old - and whilst any arcade that still has these machines on site will almost always be running late rechips that took out the most egregious emptiers, manipulators, methods etc, all of the worst characteristics of compensated machines will still be present and correct.

However, in the context of retro arcades that are preserving history and making these machines available to play, in adults only environments, as long as those attending the venues are made aware of what they're playing, for me that'd be good enough.

So you have a sign up in the entrance to the venue that reads along the lines of - 'MANY MACHINES IN THIS ARCADE ARE COMPENSATED AND DO NOT ADHERE TO CURRENT GAMING STANDARDS, THEY ARE PROVIDED FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES AS LEGACY DEVICES. THEIR BEHAVIOUR IS HEAVILY CONTROLLED AND COMPENSATED, AND THEY MAY PRODUCE RESULTS THAT ARE UNEXPECTED OR UNFAIR.'

 

[dunover]

The glass and metal/wire recycling industry will have a boom then. Those compensated machines, with terrible low RTPs and the high possibility of being fleeced by one having been 'done' before you get there are responsible for a lot of addiction misery both now and historically. Yes, for some of our generation they may invoke 'fond' memories and even a timeline to our social lives as games and jackpots changed, but ultimately they were and are compensated therefore discriminatory.

I think therefore DIF that @ChopleyIOM and others play the simulators at is the best place for them, the graveyard. There really isn't a place in the modern world for compensated games. I know those who exploited flaws and emptying or streak tricks will disagree vehemently but nowadays they are anachronistic, like 2-stroke engines and Sodastreams. They are probably bad for the environment, the power they consume and waste in standby attract mode, compared to 40-50w for a screen cabinet.

I say torch them in all in the Drax wood burning power station to power a few homes for a month and then leave the ROMs on simulators as a kind of online museum where the aficionados can still get their harmless fix.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Just for the record, this is the sort of thing we're talking about, this was a £25 jackpot compensated AWP that was out in the wild back in the day (2004 or so), it had a bug in the code and you could get the machine caught in a loop where it'd keep paying jackpots it didn't want to if you knew the trick. However, it was recording the jackpots against its percentage and once the player had taken all the money out of it and deliberately broken the loop, the compensator would then actively seek out its target percentage.

It did this by 'blocking' all wins of over £4 for as long as it took to get there.

In the emulator I demonstrated the machine wanting over THREE HUNDRED AND FIFTY POUNDS to get through the £4 block.

As dunover notes above, we need to be mindful of not getting all dewy-eyed about nonsensical shit like this, that was sometimes steeped in corruption as well.

 

[dunover]

Just for the record, this is the sort of thing we're talking about, this was a £25 jackpot compensated AWP that was out in the wild back in the day (2004 or so), it had a bug in the code and you could get the machine caught in a loop where it'd keep paying jackpots it didn't want to if you knew the trick. However, it was recording the jackpots against its percentage and once the player had taken all the money out of it and deliberately broken the loop, the compensator would then actively seek out its target percentage.

It did this by 'blocking' all wins of over £4 for as long as it took to get there.

In the emulator I demonstrated the machine wanting over THREE HUNDRED AND FIFTY POUNDS to get through the £4 block.

As dunover notes above, we need to be mindful of not getting all dewy-eyed about nonsensical shit like this, that was sometimes steeped in corruption as well.

I think the most horrific example was your excellent video on (F)Aliens £70 jp when you trapped it into the jackpot and then it proceeded to go just over 70 spins at £1 before it would even board again. Ugly, wrong and plain evil - imagine you were an innocent punter, you would put your bar stool through it but not only that, you'd never play one again, a kind of self-destruct for the industry. This perversion needs binning off for ever, only existing in cyber archives like DIF.

 

[Webzcas]

Honestly, I'm torn on this. What we're talking about here are compensated machines from the 'bad old days' of near enough wild west style 'regulation' (such as it wasn't), many of these machines are running code that's 20, 30 or even 40 years old - and whilst any arcade that still has these machines on site will almost always be running late rechips that took out the most egregious emptiers, manipulators, methods etc, all of the worst characteristics of compensated machines will still be present and correct.

However, in the context of retro arcades that are preserving history and making these machines available to play, in adults only environments, as long as those attending the venues are made aware of what they're playing, for me that'd be good enough.

So you have a sign up in the entrance to the venue that reads along the lines of - 'MANY MACHINES IN THIS ARCADE ARE COMPENSATED AND DO NOT ADHERE TO CURRENT GAMING STANDARDS, THEY ARE PROVIDED FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES AS LEGACY DEVICES. THEIR BEHAVIOUR IS HEAVILY CONTROLLED AND COMPENSATED, AND THEY MAY PRODUCE RESULTS THAT ARE UNEXPECTED OR UNFAIR.'

There are also lots of places which features 'antique arcades' - Folly Farm in Pembrokeshire West Wales is one such place. Great fun playing on all the old games and in the main harmless!

Will these have to be scrapped as well?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I think the most horrific example was your excellent video on (F)Aliens £70 jp when you trapped it into the jackpot and then it proceeded to go just over 70 spins at £1 before it would even board again. Ugly, wrong and plain evil - imagine you were an innocent punter, you would put your bar stool through it but not only that, you'd never play one again, a kind of self-destruct for the industry. This perversion needs binning off for ever, only existing in cyber archives like DIF.

Yeah Alien and clones were really bad, Barcrest had four attempts at rechipping that and it was still doable even on the last rechip. However there was a really weird very late rechip that we're still not sure was an official Barcrest chip or not, but to get itself out of the jackpot trap it would give a 'HINT' that said the next hi/lo number would be 0, on a 1-12 hi/lo reel, to ensure that the next gamble lost whatever the player chose.

Incredibly scummy, and it was definitely out in the wild on real machines.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

There are also lots of places which features 'antique arcades' - Folly Farm in Pembrokeshire West Wales is one such place. Great fun playing on all the old games and in the main harmless!

Will these have to be scrapped as well?

Aren't they in some sort of free play configuration though?

The thing with the retro arcades is many of them are running some later compensated machines with the bigger jackpots of £70 or even £100, the compensators on some of these were absolutely mental and they were capable of taking massive amounts of cash.

I can sort of understand where the UKGC is coming from, £100 jackpot fruit machines can be set to £1 per play, set as low as 70% payouts (with no requirement or even ability to display this information), and are hardcore gambling devices, they're really not 'a bit of vintage fun'.

 

[Webzcas]

Not at that particular establishment, no.

 

[JGslots]

There will be a way to make reel based machines comply.

I would expect the likes of Concept to fit an external unit to fruit machines that control the safer gambling measures and limits.

Concept have successfully managed to implement TITO into analogue machines so it seems likely this can be done too.

Rob

 

[ChopleyIOM]

There will be a way to make reel based machines comply.

I would expect the likes of Concept to fit an external unit to fruit machines that control the safer gambling measures and limits.

Concept have successfully managed to implement TITO into analogue machines so it seems likely this can be done too.

Rob

I imagine cost would be a limiting factor, how much money are arcades going to want to invest in making an old £6 jackpot AWP compatible with modern gambling legislation?

 

[JGslots]

I totally get what you’re saying, however the businesses which operate these machines are generally geared to towards catering for this specific market.

Take Mr P’s, I’m sure he would bend over backwards in order to make them compliant.

The information coming through is still very vague. My guess would be that classic slots may be allowed under a special legacy category due to the reasons outlined. If you remember they already have a legacy category which allowed outdated technical standards. This is what Bacta should be pushing for, but my fear is that they won’t care about such classic games as the industry is controlled by 2 big players and they only want digital stuff end of.

 

[jasonuk]

It's tough to tell what exactly is going on given they don't cite the source of the "pre-consultation". The UKGC doesn't link to a recent or current one (the last in February 2024) and the closest government consultation I can find from earlier this year barely touched on this topic either.

So trying to predict the split here, we have two types of machines

• Those under the legacy technical standards (last updated in 2007) - which would cover most AWPs up to and including the £25 era.
• Those under the current technical standards - which includes all £35, £75 and £100 machines.

The ones in the latter category could be at risk - because the technical standards provide the foundations for what is being talked about (firmware management, TITO etc), but the companies behind the machines are long gone.

If such a drastic decision is to be made, I would anticipate the payment mechanisms to take the brunt of it - we've seen arcade machines converted that can both apply credits (by swiping a game card) and award tickets (instead of the paper variety), and similarly we've seen fruit machines converted to award tickets (a £5 jackpot machine that awards 500 tickets, but at 30% RTP). So it's possible the same could be considered here - but it would be incredibly convoluted and expensive.

 

[Jono777]

Would be VERY sad to see these machines outlawed completely, hoping it does not come to that.

Bit of a ball ache to set up and get going but would work long term IMO. A simple membership form issued by the arcades with a sort of 'disclaimer' (many hardcore / seasoned players would not even need to read it) explaining what punters are "getting in to"

Signed, arses covered.

Thing is with UKGC, the simple and common sense routes are seldom followed.

 

[slot_zombie]

Great. So a "compliant" modern Equinox terminal, with compensated £100 jackpot games like Boogie Nights, capable of taking £500+ for one jackpot if caught at the wrong time is absolutely fine..

..Suicidal 'red bag' spins that can destroy a month's wages in one visit are fine..

..But a classic Road Hog £6 jackpot 20p play absolutely must be thrown in the skip because "technical standards".

Just when I thought the UKGC couldn't possibly get more demented.

 

[dunover]

Look, BACTA is like the TV license - pointless, anachronistic and is ready for abolition. It would be best closure if the whole compensated industry was put on a 3-year notice along with BACTA. Tidying up for the modern age. It's like still having analogue mobile phones.

If you look at accounts of arcades and operators of them, most of them have a cabinet capital asset value of £1 on their books. You could get a small 'scrappage' fee from the govt. of say £10 for each unit, probably far more than they are actually worth.

Every consumer item becomes an antique one day.

 

[Jono777]

Look, BACTA is like the TV license - pointless, anachronistic and is ready for abolition. It would be best closure if the whole compensated industry was put on a 3-year notice along with BACTA. Tidying up for the modern age. It's like still having analogue mobile phones.

If you look at accounts of arcades and operators of them, most of them have a cabinet capital asset value of £1 on their books. You could get a small 'scrappage' fee from the govt. of say £10 for each unit, probably far more than they are actually worth.

Every consumer item becomes an antique one day.

Some of the older machines are worth in excess of £1,000, for example a Barcrest Crystal Maze would set you back approximately this figure.

Some of the older 80's machines fetch even more.

 

[dunover]

Some of the older machines are worth in excess of £1,000, for example a Barcrest Crystal Maze would set you back approximately this figure.

Some of the older 80's machines fetch even more.

wow! They were worth 80-200 quid about 10 years back.

 

[Reelsoffun]

I sold a barcrest “Golden award” MPU3 £3 token jackpot about a decade ago to a collector for £1,450 and £850 for a Road hog £6 MPU4 token which was probably on the low side but he only had £2,300 cash on him LOL

There is some serious money to be had from collectors for legacy fruit machines of that era. Sadly I have none left to sell now, and my theatre of magic pinball went as well, for silly money I might add nearly 4k but I had restored it to near mint

 

[Reelsoffun]

wow! They were worth 80-200 quid about 10 years back.

No mate you’re a bit out of touch, legacy machines have been getting silly money for over a decade, esp if it’s on the rarer side.

 

[jasonuk]

The number of working machines continues to decline - many got smashed up in the 90s and 2000s, the rest will be cannibalised over time to keep machines operational. The reelfruits workshop series on youtube is pretty interesting for this, how much work goes into keep machines running...

With more retro arcades pushing up the demand compared to a decade ago - desirable machines will demand some decent money (as others have mentioned, in excess of a thousand pounds) although less desirable ones will still be peanuts. I don't think anyone will be paying a grand for a betcom

 

[dunover]

The number of working machines continues to decline - many got smashed up in the 90s and 2000s, the rest will be cannibalised over time to keep machines operational. The reelfruits workshop series on youtube is pretty interesting for this, how much work goes into keep machines running...

With more retro arcades pushing up the demand compared to a decade ago - desirable machines will demand some decent money (as others have mentioned, in excess of a thousand pounds) although less desirable ones will still be peanuts. I don't think anyone will be paying a grand for a betcom

By the punters by any chance?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I sold a barcrest “Golden award” MPU3 £3 token jackpot about a decade ago to a collector for £1,450 and £850 for a Road hog £6 MPU4 token which was probably on the low side but he only had £2,300 cash on him LOL

There is some serious money to be had from collectors for legacy fruit machines of that era. Sadly I have none left to sell now, and my theatre of magic pinball went as well, for silly money I might add nearly 4k but I had restored it to near mint

I don't understand the prices of old fruit machines when they're all available to play, perfectly emulated, and generally with really good 'DX' layouts that look just like the real machine.

(NERD NOTE - Emulation is not the same as simulation, so when dunover refers to the 'simulator' that's not correct, MFME is an emulator that runs the original ROMs, exactly the same as the real machines.)

I get that real machines have a certain presence to them, and look cool in a darkened room, and so on, but they're such a faff to look after and keep running. As for pinball, I owned a couple of pinballs back in the early 2000s (a Twilight Zone and an ST:TNG), they were great but fuck me stuff on them just kept breaking, and rebuilding the flippers on the TZ wasn't my idea of a fun day.

Also, eventually you completely master them, even with tables that have complicated rulesets like those two.

I'm quite happy just playing the official licensed recreations in Pinball Arcade/Pinball FX (which run emulations of the original ROMs). And for fruit machines MFME is the stuff of dreams, the world's biggest arcade, on your PC!

 

[sweetvict0ri@]

Is it true that Gaming Associates are leaving the United Kingdom? I heard it this morning from one of my networks, and I would like to know if there is any information about this.