Payment Complaint troubles with the Virtual group

[SMaster]

Soon will be a year since I requested withdrawals from several casinos of Virtual group. 15-20k in total.

Virtual Group just avoids to withdraw.
They initiated "game check" for "near up to 2 months" period, but this so called "check" lasted over a half year.
Just warning to any potential gamblers. They may avoid payments without ANY reason.

In fairness, I would like to inform that until I had several unpaid delayed withdrawals, this casino group regularly paid me according to my requests.

Complaint didn't help at all. As for Casinomeister's PUB I'm greatful to them, but the fact- near to zero help at this time (this situation soon will be another thread's theme) appealing to so called "industry standards" that casino's check can last even more than a half year... Veeery passive position of a Mediator / Arbitration, that speaks about big problems in "industry"... + we don't even know for sure if did they finish so called checks or no. I think this is strange and alarming.
Virtual group Representative first responded couple times, but now she ignores my messages. So Virtual Group management also excelled in courtesy and tact. Not responding to a client who has over 15k balance to be withdrawn for 10 months is just "top-notch service" in the "industry"...

I'm sure the "checks" have been completed long ago and no violations have been found (since I know for a fact I haven't violated anything), but since they don't want to fulfill their obligations, they're simply keeping quiet. For how long? That's the question.

 

[maxd]

Hello @SMaster ,

Firstly let me say that if you are going to complain in public about issues that have been explained to you many MANY times you might at least have the courtesy to speak truthfully about the circumstances.

The truth is we’ve handled quite a few cases for you over the past year or so, and yes some of those were for the Virtual group. At no time did we ever say that we were in love with that group or their casinos. The troubles with that group date back a LONG time — admittedly less so at times and more so at others — and you just happen to have encountered them recently. May I suggest you do a little research to find out what you’re dealing with here.

Now, to your cases: when you submitted your Virtual cases we were immediately informed by the rep that the game provider was investigating you across their entire network and that was going to have a detrimental effect on your cases. Specifically we told you very clearly that when a provider is investigating a player they hold all the cards and that nothing will happen at the casino or with your complaints until they are finished and release the cases back to the casinos.

We told you this and explained it to you more times than I can count, not to mention the rep having done the same. And why did we have to do that? Because you simply ignore whatever it is that you don’t want to hear and bang on about “standards” and “industry corruption” and a lot of other stuff that has no effect on casinos with weak or non-existent licenses.

You say "Virtual group Representative first responded couple times, but now she ignores my messages.” Yes indeed, and so would we if you ignored every word we said, paid no attention to the explanations given, and repeated the same insulting attacks day after day after day, as you have done with the rep in question. At some point anyone in their position would conclude that since you have no respect for the time they take explaining things to you they simply won’t bother anymore and do the only thing that makes sense: end the conversation.

Above you say that we took a "Veeery passive position of a Mediator / Arbitration”. Again, we explained the situation to you many times: we are not the police, we are not the courts and we are not The Global Force Against Bad Things Happening. We are arbitrators and what we do in the PABs is “arbitrate”:

arbitrate,

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​

: to act as

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upon (a disputed question) : to settle (a dispute between two people or groups) after hearing the arguments and opinions of both.​

In other words to do what we do we need to hear from both parties, if one party does not provide their arguments there is nothing to arbitrate. Since the provider made it clear that they’d respond to the relevant casinos in their own time — a month, 6 months, a year if that’s what they decided to do — then you, us, and anyone else involved can either wait it out or take the matter into their own hands as best they could. The fact that you chose the latter path is your business but please spare us the defamatory comments when there was clearly no path available to us for proceeding with the arbitration of your issue.

In a situation where all your issues are in the game provide's hands you, we and anyone else in the case simply has to sit on their hands until the provider is done whatever it is they are doing. You complained bitterly about this, even to the point of doing so here, but when we asked you what you might suggest we do over and above what we were doing — because we knew full well there was nothing we could do to force your issues to conclusion — you had nothing to say. Obviously that would've been your response because there is nothing to be done in that circumstance: the providers work beyond the control or influence of pretty much anyone, unless you want to take your chances and try to pursue them in court.

So we flatly reject your criticism of our arbitration process. In fact I’ll point out that you’ve had no less than 6 PABs with us over the last 18 months; all casinos with fake licenses or unlicensed, and exactly the success rate with those that you might expect: zero. To put it bluntly “that’s a you problem”: pick better casinos and your chances of having satisfactory resolutions to your cases will increase dramatically.

That said, given your disparaging attitude toward us after our many hours of working on your cases, we will no longer be accepting PAB complaints from you and all your cases that were in progress are hereby closed. No doubt you’ll find somewhere else that suits you better and good luck to you with that.

Regards,

Max Drayman
Complaints & Player Arbitration (PAB) Team Lead

 

[SMaster]

Hello @maxd

First, I must confidently deny that my statement in my previous post about "passivity" in any way implied "corruption". It also in no way related to previous cases. Since we're talking about previous cases, I'll explain a bit, otherwise it might create the mistaken impression that I'm ungrateful and even a simple-minded amateur. Besides Virtual Group Casino, there were only four of them – and two of them eventually paid out (which I notified PAB about), despite the cases already being closed. One of them didn't even respond – the casino was in a slightly complicated situation, clearly misinterpreting its own rules to its advantage, and I was skeptical about that case from the start. And here's the fourth case: Electricwins – they're clearly scammers with a fake license and numerous complaints about scams and even fake games. But there weren't any complaints back then – it was a new casino, and of course, it was my choice and my mistake. Except for the last one, all of them had licenses and fairly high "ratings" on some websites. In any case, I was sincerely grateful to PAB (which, by the way, I always reported) for their work and time, regardless of the case's outcome. Of course, I appreciate the advice on choosing better casinos, but considering I've played at dozens of casinos and my monthly deposits and withdrawals often exceeded several tens of thousands, these cases represent a very small percentage (well, with the exception of Virtual Group, which doesn't pay me for several casinos at once).

About the Virtual Group case.
-The casino refuses to pay an amount close to 20,000 for over 10 months.
-The casino has been reporting third-party (provider) checks since September last year.
-The casino's rep does not responded to my inquiries 2 months.

-I was informed by PAB, that there are no time limits for third-party checks according to gambling industry standards.

This situation may look like a deadlock, which could actually give the casino an advantage. Therefore, given that almost nothing depends on the PAB in this case, I admit that my criticism of passivity was subjective.
Was it subjective or may be even totally wrong opinion, but it's far to be called called "disrespect" or even more "slander" here.
So repeat: I didn't mean PAB "inaction", "casino favoritism", moreover "corruption".

In any case, the lack of deadlines in any process is a major problem and a clear flaw in the industry. In fact, I know firsthand that clearly fraudulent casinos with fake licenses exploit this—they don't block you or withdraw funds from your balance for a long time, but they can cite audits as justification for their fraudulent actions for years—that's a fact. I think I'll name two that might be useful: Ocean-breeze-casino and Electricwins. I wouldn't like to compare Virtual Group, with its million-strong customer base, with fraudulent sites, but sadly the situation is very similar.

Just to be objective and I don't wish any user take my posts wrong. So I appreciate the work PAB does- be it for me ir for another gambler. I see that PAB helps many people to receive their money, even in situation when they don't have much instruments. Some cases are really hard to review. F.E. I saw some cases concerning self exclusion- to my surprise I found out that PAB was able to help people to receive money that gambler with addition problem lost playing- I guess that's at least worth something.

Regards

 

[SMaster]

So, over a YEAR has passed since my first withdrawal requests from the Virtual Group casino.
I remind to gamblers- a Casino Group (a respectable and old enough to be trusted as I thought) didn't pay my balance amounts at several casinos at total estimate amount near to 20000$.

There's also a dispute going on on another website regarding a debt owed to me by one of the Virtual Group casinos: Rubyslots. A respected representative there is reporting on a certain "global casino security network" that is supposedly investigates the "case." It's good that there was the game Provider before, but again, the reference to a third party is highly inappropriate in this dispute and shows only one thing – a pathetic attempt to justify payment delays. Does anyone know who this "global casino security network" is, or do they exist only in the Astral World of the Virtual Group?

Hey, @TawniVirtualAce, you are a big casino group with over 15 years experience - what investigation is your rep in LCB talking about? Sounds like a nonsense.
And what about the CIA and MI6 – maybe they can help you sort this situation out faster?

 

[maxd]

… And what about the CIA and MI6 – maybe they can help you sort this situation out faster?

Unlikely, to say the least.

In my experience, anything taking as long as a year or more is probably going nowhere. There is a point where “investigation ongoing” is a euphemism for “not gonna happen”.

 

[SMaster]

Unlikely, to say the least.

In my experience, anything taking as long as a year or more is probably going nowhere. There is a point where “investigation ongoing” is a euphemism for “not gonna happen”.

Sure. I see.

If the casino really had grounds for delaying payments, they would have publicly announced it and blocked my profiles. Because I've dealt with dozens of casinos, and I've encountered scammers also. 2 outright scammers—BOTH with fake licenses—both obvious fraudsters. And only these two, besides Virtual Group, reported ongoing investigations. This is clearly a scammer's signature method—it's the method adopted by casinos that are universally recognized as scams. So what's the difference between Virtual Group and them? I was fearing exactly this scenario when I complained about the lack of time limits on "investigations."
I still expect Virtual Group to resolve the issue soon, since I did have a positive experience with them for some time. Otherwise, another month or two of delay will give me complete grounds to call them scammers—after all, if a casino doesn't pay and they have no reason to, it's simply fraud. This is an indicative post regarding Virtual Group.

The bad thing is that, based on experience, being confident in the casino's honesty, I got involved and started playing with many of this group's casinos, and as a result, the amount to be paid, from several months gameplay was already somewhere around two tens of thousands (by the way, I was so confident in them that even after the suspension of payments and the statement of an "investigation" by the representative, I still played in the group's casinos for a couple of months).

@TawniVirtualAce I repeat, I still hope you will be constructive. I am open to any of your questions, providing any material, documents, and explanations if needed. If you've noticed even the slightest "red flag" during this nearly year-long "investigation," please let me know. If my response will seem less than 100% comprehensive, I publicly acknowledge that your delay is justified—even if it's a minor detail or an indirect suspicion. You can write me a private message—after all, you could be on the wrong track, and one answer could resolve everything, unless, of course, your goal isn't simply to rip me off.

 

[X-Raided]

To the OP, I wish you "good luck" in your "endeavor" on "retrieving" your "funds" that are "owed" to you by Virtual Group.

 

[maxd]

… If the casino really had grounds for delaying payments, they would have publicly announced it ...

In my experience that is not true. There are many reasons a casino won’t talk about a case publicly, not the least of which is fraud or exploits. They have every reason not to broadcast such things and, unsurprisingly, they typically don’t.

 

[SMaster]

To the OP, I wish you "good luck" in your "endeavor" on "retrieving" your "funds" that are "owed" to you by Virtual Group.

I understand the sarcasm; I've also read a lot of horror stories about them (by the way, mostly from noobs hunting for free spins), but I'll let you in on a secret: they've been paying out my winnings reliably for a couple of years, and my experience has been generally positive, except for the long payout periods.

So, my own experience, unlike the horror stories, so far gives me hope that everything will be resolved fairly.

 

[sperron]

hiya.

not sure if i should post here or make a new topic... I won money with rubyslots months ago but they refused to take my bank statement as proof of address and my utilities are included with my accommodation so i was a bit stuck for what to send them...

i messaged the rep for the group but haven't heard back, is this at the point where I should open a complaint?

thanks,

sara

 

[SMaster]

In my experience that is not true. There are many reasons a casino won’t talk about a case publicly, not the least of which is fraud or exploits. They have every reason not to broadcast such things and, unsurprisingly, they typically don’t.

Well, it's a matter of choice. Then for me, like the most of others who read this topic, it will mean the withdrawals were refused without reason or justification. In other words, it's simply a rip-off of their client. I don't think a scammer's reputation is beneficial to any large casino group. +It's not about 100-200$ even not 1000-2000$.

As for the reason for starting "checks," it was a mind-bogglingly ridiculous, especially considering that they usually delay withdrawals for a month or two: "several pending withdrawals over a couple of months". Sometimes I have that many withdrawals in a week from different casinos. But the fact is, that is the only reason the representative gave up to this day.

 

[SMaster]

hiya.

not sure if i should post here or make a new topic... I won money with rubyslots months ago but they refused to take my bank statement as proof of address and my utilities are included with my accommodation so i was a bit stuck for what to send them...

i messaged the rep for the group but haven't heard back, is this at the point where I should open a complaint?

thanks,

sara

Hi. I think, yes, you should open a new topic.
I also find it strange, however that they don't accept bank statements like other casinos. I remember I should have to send to a casino of their group an official translation of an utility bill translated by a licensed certified translator (as bill wasn't in English). I would venture to assume that they may accept your lease agreement in your case. You may contact representative @TawniVirtualAce . I guess she doesn't respond only to my messages.

 

[maxd]

... I guess she doesn't respond only to my messages.

Nope, we have troubles with that too.

 

[sperron]

Nope, we have troubles with that too.

me too I sent a mail a week ago

 

[andysbetting1187]

Nope, we have troubles with that too.

Max, just a QQ but if this is the case, is it not possible to throw some form of rocket at them or remove them from the site?

They know they are being tagged and have been viewing the forum so if reps can't at least acknowledge an issue/querey then they should not be on here (in my opinion)

 

[maxd]

I hear you, but it’s not a black and white thing. They are handling most issues, eventually.

So what do you do in a situation like that? Kick them off the site and fling poo? Yeah, that’d largely deserve it BUT we are helping players, many are getting paid, as much of a PITA as it may be to get there.

Our thought is that that throwing the baby out with the bathwater is probably not in the best interests of our readership. So here we are.

Obv that’s not necessarily ideal for anyone. So let us know your thoughts, what better could be done?

 

[andysbetting1187]

I hear you, but it’s not a black and white thing. They are handling most issues, eventually.

So what do you do in a situation like that? Kick them off the site and fling poo? Yeah, that’d largely deserve it BUT we are helping players, many are getting paid, as much of a PITA as it may be to get there.

Our thought is that that throwing the baby out with the bathwater is probably not in the best interests of our readership. So here we are.

Obv that’s not necessarily ideal for anyone. So let us know your thoughts, what better could be done?

Fair enough mate - if they are responding eventually then its better than nothing.

I suppose its hard getting the balance - ideally you would want it to be within the T&C's (or whatever is used for the reps) that they have to respond within a certain timeframe, but when they are giving up their time for free its a difficult one

 

[SMaster]

I see offers to ban the representative. Sure ignoring messages isn't the best option, but ban won't help anyone.

What I'm about to write may seem strange, but I have to do, because when I feel losing objectivity, I feel losing self-respect together whith it. Virtual Group's reputation, judging by the reviews, is terrible. I'm afraid this thread is also seriously damaging it. It's time to talk about the good stuff, too, so readers don't get the wrong impression of Virtual Group despite the fact that I certainly have good reasons to write about problems with payments. Therefore, guided by objectivity, I responsibly and honestly express my unbiased opinion, backed by thousands of hours of experience across dozens of resources.

SO:
Virtual Group Casinos is one of the best online casino groups all over the global network. At the same time, it's one of the most underrated. Perhaps even the most underrated.

Now I'll explain why. And yes, I can discuss this with any experienced gambler.
Well, the simplicity of the interface and the virtual absence of bugs throughout my entire experience with them are a small plus. And most importantly: they're at least in the top 5 in promotional offers in whole network all over the world. Of the 100+ casinos I've played at, I can count on my fingers the ones that offered similar promotions. This means that a player using bonuses from Virtual Group has a significantly higher chance of winning than at 95% of other casinos (if we take only sticky bonuses). I think the most important criterion for any gambler is how high the odds of winning are given the totality of the terms offered by a given casino. By the way, I'll give you a specific example: most of the money the Virtual group owed me was won through a promotional offer during the last summer months with only 10x the wagering requirement and no limits on max bet or max withdrawal (!). (As it was a good offer, and I had free time, so naturally, I won several out of several dozen deposits.) Many will probably be surprised, but they also had 1x wagering promotions! And again, no limits... I first saw this with Virtual Group, before I encountered a couple of other casinos with similar promos. But I think they were pioneers in this.
As for withdrawals, I repeat, they paid me regularly from their group's websites within 2 years, even though withdrawals sometimes took a month—but they did pay.

Regarding reviews about them, I've looked at many at trustpilot or specialized resources and the vast majority are whining about why they weren't paid a thousand$ or two for free spins or why the bonus was removed from their balance. In other words, most of them are empty whining from people who simply don't read the rules (of course, I don’t rule out that there were cases where Virtual Group was unfair and wrong).

I dare say that with such "aggressive" marketing in terms of promotional offers, they not only have a couple hundred thousand visits per month to each of their sites, but also a much higher payout percentage paid to gamblers from their total revenue than the most of other casinos, which is why they're more cautious about withdrawals.

Yes, their policy of silence and disregard for opinions is infuriating. But my case is probably an unfortunate misunderstanding rather than the norm. And I still hope that they will resolve the situation soon. If they delay it any further, I might be harsh, but... In any case, no matter the outcome, this post will remain an unbiased (the most unbiased, given the situation) opinion about Virtual Group casinos.

 

[maxd]

Please remember that we have 20+ years of working with, for and against the Virtual group in a variety of phases of the company. There have been criminally bad stretches and actually quite promising times scattered across those years. I know the rep personally and I’ve met with company executives on more than one occasion. We know pretty well who they are, what they do, how they justify that to themselves, and what they will and will not listen to from outsiders.

What I say or have said about them is not trivial or misinformed stuff. You may have experiences with them as a player, I have decades of experience with them as a casino group operating in and out of the shadowy parts of the industry. That may not be as complementary as they’d like to hear but given the countless hours, days and years that we’ve had to wrestle with them over basic player service issues it is, I’m certain, 100% justified. FYI.

- Max