This is getting out of hand

[Renegade]

Internet gaming guide shut down in Washington state

A Washington state online gaming guide was shut down by its operator recently despite the fact no illegal wagers were being accepted by the site. According to officials, the website violated Senate Bill 6613, the new law passed in the state last month which made online gambling a felony and prohibits using the Internet to transmit gambling related information.

Tom Boutte, the Bellingham, Wash., man who ran the site, is a former Wal-Mart employee who launched IntegrityCasinoGuide.com as a casino review. The guide advised readers on the best Internet casinos via articles, links and advertisements.

Boutte didn't think his site was in violation of Senate Bill 6613 since no actual wagering was taking place. However, after reading an article in the Bellingham Herald where officials said IntegrityCasinoGuide.com was in fact illegal, Boutte shut his site down and is now attempting to find an out of state buyer to take it off his hands.

Users of the site will now find a "This Account Has Been Suspended" message written across the top of the screen after logging in, along with a prompt that urges players to "Please contact the billing/support department as soon as possible."

Rick Day, the director of the state's gambling commission, said the content featured on Boutte's site assisted people in committing a felony because it provided guidance on where and how to gamble online through the use of promotional links and articles, which itself warrants a criminal charge according to the new law.

Similarly, publications containing regular "how-to" poker columns, such as The Seattle Times which features "Card Shark" by poker pro Daniel Negreanu, could fall victim to the new regulations if links or online gambling information is included in the article.

To avoid any unpleasant encounters with the law, Day suggests editors remove any advice or links relating to online gambling from the columns.

THIS IS BS!!!!


These little hilter bastards are so worried about online gambling yet Porno and child porno is all over the internet and they could care less about it!!!!


Please tell me I'm not alone here!!!!!!

 

[Tdoggy]

Got to agree

What a load of crap. The USA just keeps on taking rights away from people. Wasn't it bad enough when it all started with credit cards being declined at casinos and sportsbooks. Then paypal jumped on the band wagon and declared no "Gambling transactions" for the USA!!! And now this crap....What is the world coming to... You are borrowing money to pay for items from your credit card and when the bill comes you pay it. But no gambling!! lol God for bid you want to place a bet or place a wager at an online casino!!! The Credit card company is telling you what you can and can not spend your money on. What a crock!!! This is getting out of hand...

p.s. Did i just read an e-mail from Intercasino that says Congress is trying to ban online poker now???? Good Lord!!!

Internet Porn and child porn are way out of hand, I totally agree. Any 5 year old kid these days can sit at a computer and access some kind of internet porn in a matter of seconds these days...Very SAD!!

Anybody see the specials on t.v. these days with the under cover people busting these online Pervs showing up at the "setup" house expecting to have sex with minors...Horrible.

 

[Renegade]

Anybody see the specials on t.v. these days with the under cover people busting these online Pervs showing up at the "setup" house expecting to have sex with minors...Horrible.

That is on the evening news!!

Rick Day, the director of the state's gambling commission, said the content featured on Boutte's site assisted people in committing a felony because it provided guidance on where and how to gamble online through the use of promotional links and articles, which itself warrants a criminal charge according to the new law.

Similarly, publications containing regular "how-to" poker columns, such as The Seattle Times which features "Card Shark" by poker pro Daniel Negreanu, could fall victim to the new regulations if links or online gambling information is included in the article.

So it's safe to assume by the quote above that public Libraries will be violating the law if they have gambling books!!
Poker Magazines are against the law according to the above.
And any newsletters coming from a gambling portal will also be against the law!!
Even a newsletter from this great site!!

Wonder how many will be arrested and sent to prison because they have movies that have gambling scenes in them!!

Or sent to prison because they we're watching the World Poker Series on ESPN!!!!!!

I swear these politicians need a kick in their arse so hard they'd have to drop their pants to chew their food!!

 

[Mousey]

I'm hoping the public outrage will cause some changes. I mean, come oooonnn!

 

[GrandMaster]

What happened to the freedom of speech?

 

[dickens1298]

Some comments that are more contrarian (at least - to this forum).

First, the initial post in this thread noted that the OPERATOR decided to shut down the site. He wasn't coerced nor forced, but merely did so out of fear. It was his choice not to do so, pure and simple. And for those posters so eager to support his web site, the article does mention that he has site up for sale...

This also isn't too dissimilar to credit card companies prohibiting the use of their cards on gambling web sites. Did the online gaming community raise a similar uproar?

Personally, I'm in the category of those individuals who do not care one way or the other. Neither my livelihood nor my entertainment is solely dependent upon online gaming, and I find it ironic that some who would admit to a gambling problem would also be the most vitriolic in their protests against this legislation.

Instead of protesting this legislation, and using such rhetorical arguments as "why doesn't the gov't pursue online molesters instead" and "this is a trampling of our individual rights", the online gaming community might be better served to propose ways in which online gaming can be better regulated. Rogue casinos, age verification, seized accounts - these are all issues that plague online casinos, but which most players seem to shrug off and indicate that it's not a problem (until it becomes THEIR problem - much like a recession is only a depression when YOU are the one out of work...). By seeking a resolution to these issues, the online gaming community has a much better chance of surviving.

 

[dominique]

Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)



Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

 

[Renegade]

Personally, I'm in the category of those individuals who do not care one way or the other. Neither my livelihood nor my entertainment is solely dependent upon online gaming, and I find it ironic that some who would admit to a gambling problem would also be the most vitriolic in their protests against this legislation.

Are you saying that because I oppose the Federal Government in overstepping their bounds that I have a gambling problem??

You really have no idea of what these bills will do to our rights!!
You already admitted that you could care less about online gambling, that's fine, but I think you need to take a closer look at this issue as it goes beyond gambling.

These bills impact a hell of alot more then just online gambling!
If your not part of the solution then your part of the problem.

 

[dickens1298]

Are you saying that because I oppose the Federal Government in overstepping their bounds that I have a gambling problem??

You really have no idea of what these bills will do to our rights!!
You already admitted that you could care less about online gambling, that's fine, but I think you need to take a closer look at this issue as it goes beyond gambling.

These bills impact a hell of alot more then just online gambling!
If your not part of the solution then your part of the problem.

Easy, Renegade. My words were that SOME posters here have already admitted to a gambling problem, and yet have claimed that such legislation is unjust. I was not implying you by any stretch of the imagination.

Ok - so let's take a look at this issue "beyond" gambling. According to various sources inside and outside of the US, online gambling has been identified as the primary catalyst for the rise in gambling addicts. So if you're Joe Public, wouldn't your reaction be supportive of such legislation, primarily because others seem to be harmed if such legislation isn't passed? And what amendment is being violated if such legislation were to pass?

Put another way - if gambling addiction is a concern with legislators, and if the unregulated nature of the industry is another factor in this legislation, what have YOU done - aside from complaining here - to combat such legislation? Have you sought to purchase the gambling web site (the closure of which kicked off this thread) and challenge the legality of the Washington law in court? Have you spearheaded efforts to regulate the industry, cleaning up such issues as underage gambling and rogue casinos? Or have you preached to the same choir?

I would argue that the last option is essentially the same as sitting back and doing nothing.

 

[Renegade]

what have YOU done - aside from complaining here - to combat such legislation?

I have emailed my State reps on this issue a total of 17 times since I have learned of it.
I have been trying to spread the word about this and get others involved so they may also email, call, or write thier state reps.
I have gotten my local Newspaper involved in this.

As far as buying that site, I don't need it, I have my own casino.
And will have my own poker room in serveral months.

As far as the deeper aspects of these bills???

Again, I take it you have not read these bills, or if you have, you failed to read between the lines and see the big picture.

Either way, Im not going to get into a discussion on this issue with you because You've clearly stated that you don't care either way and I'm not going to waste my time beating my head against the wall.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but honestly, if you believe that these bills are designed to help online gamblers with a gambling addiction, ......Well, we'll just leave it at that.

 

[The Watchdog]

Its really sad

So many efforts on avoiding gambling and thousands of other things that should be taken care off first.

But, you know how it works... They need to avoid US dollars to leave the country and "harm" the american economy.

Priorities: Oil, keep the money to ourselves and remember.. Freedom and Democracy before anything.

No further comments

 

[dickens1298]

I have emailed my State reps on this issue a total of 17 times since I have learned of it.
I have been trying to spread the word about this and get others involved so they may also email, call, or write thier state reps.
I have gotten my local Newspaper involved in this.

As far as buying that site, I don't need it, I have my own casino.
And will have my own poker room in serveral months.

As far as the deeper aspects of these bills???

Again, I take it you have not read these bills, or if you have, you failed to read between the lines and see the big picture.

Either way, Im not going to get into a discussion on this issue with you because You've clearly stated that you don't care either way and I'm not going to waste my time beating my head against the wall.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but honestly, if you believe that these bills are designed to help online gamblers with a gambling addiction, ......Well, we'll just leave it at that.

I guess we agree to disagree.

It's interesting - this morning I was perusing the various posts on this web site with my girlfriend. When you read about the various tactics used by some online casinos, and when you read about some of the gambling control problems some of the posters have, it's sometimes difficult to talk about the "good" things about internet gambling.

Regardless of my failure to see the "deeper aspects" of this, my question still stands - what part of the proposed legislation actually violates our constitutional rights? And regarding your role in combating this legislation - were your communications along the lines of "this is grossly unfair" or were there more proactive points of action - such as how to best regulate online gambling, et al?

 

[bossplayer]

Easy, Renegade. My words were that SOME posters here have already admitted to a gambling problem, and yet have claimed that such legislation is unjust. I was not implying you by any stretch of the imagination.

Ok - so let's take a look at this issue "beyond" gambling. According to various sources inside and outside of the US, online gambling has been identified as the primary catalyst for the rise in gambling addicts. So if you're Joe Public, wouldn't your reaction be supportive of such legislation, primarily because others seem to be harmed if such legislation isn't passed? And what amendment is being violated if such legislation were to pass?

Put another way - if gambling addiction is a concern with legislators, and if the unregulated nature of the industry is another factor in this legislation, what have YOU done - aside from complaining here - to combat such legislation? Have you sought to purchase the gambling web site (the closure of which kicked off this thread) and challenge the legality of the Washington law in court? Have you spearheaded efforts to regulate the industry, cleaning up such issues as underage gambling and rogue casinos? Or have you preached to the same choir?

I would argue that the last option is essentially the same as sitting back and doing nothing.

Yeah, wtf ever. Instead, all US citizens should lose their money in the state they live in. That would be sooo much better... and playing games (ie lotteries, slots) that give them a great chance to win too!!!

Wake up...

 

[soflat]

How come it seems like ti is always the guys who own casinos and poker rooms, or those who work for them telling us how important it is and that we should take action and write our Congressmen?

 

[The Dude]

How come it seems like ti is always the guys who own casinos and poker rooms, or those who work for them telling us how important it is and that we should take action and write our Congressmen?

I've been preaching this for years, and I don't own diddly squat except this site. The banning of online casinos will only open the door to the scaggly dodgy-ass clip shot joints that will take anyone's money and say "eff you" when you have a complaint. It's definitely in the player's interest to get their politicians to see the light: regulation not prohibition.

If there is a ban, you can kiss playing at most legitimate sites goodbye - and you might as well bookmark the PAB page

And my traffic would probably go up - so ban away! Yee-ha!!

 

[dominique]

I've been preaching this for years, and I don't own diddly squat except this site. The banning of online casinos will only open the door to the scaggly dodgy-ass clip shot joints that will take anyone's money and say "eff you" when you have a complaint. It's definitely in the player's interest to get their politicians to see the light: regulation not prohibition.

If there is a ban, you can kiss playing at most legitimate sites goodbye - and you might as well bookmark the PAB page

And my traffic would probably go up - so ban away! Yee-ha!!

That is exactly what is likely to happen.

When you make something criminal, criminals will take over.

 

[Tdoggy]

mafia

Organized crime must have a big smile on their faces right now

Mafia..what Mafia..There is no Mafia....I'm just a man blessed with many friends....

What is the price of gas these days???? lol the Gov't trying to regulate something...I'm cracking up....


Why not just tax it to death??? Wouldn't that make the gov't more happy :notworthy

 

[Renegade]

The State of Washington is trying to ban all publications about poker and gambling.
From Books, to magazines, to newsletters, to websites, to newspapers...
What does all these have in common?????
There are all forms of FREEDOM OF SPEECH.
Thus, their laws violates our constitution and again, very few people see this.

When will people start to wake up?
When Washington Officals start ransacking the local Barnes & Noble to remove all gambling related materials?????

I started this thread not as a casino owner, but as an American concerned about our Rights & Liberties.

Our Rights & Liberties are once again being threatened and violated, yet alot of people cannot see nor understand that this is happening.
I find it ironic that people will go and spend hundreds of dollars on their state lottery, not realizing that their odds of being struck by lightning while sitting on the couch watching tv and drinking a pepsi are better then winning a state lottery.
And yet, many people think that the sate lotteries have "FAIR ODDS" when in fact, the odds are stacked far more against people then any online casino could ever hope to do.

 

[soflat]

I've been preaching this for years, and I don't own diddly squat except this site. The banning of online casinos will only open the door to the scaggly dodgy-ass clip shot joints that will take anyone's money and say "eff you" when you have a complaint. It's definitely in the player's interest to get their politicians to see the light: regulation not prohibition.

If there is a ban, you can kiss playing at most legitimate sites goodbye - and you might as well bookmark the PAB page

And my traffic would probably go up - so ban away! Yee-ha!!

Sure, there are a few people with no financial interest that are totally up in arms about losing the ability to play slots and poker online. It just seems like the most vocal about us losing our rights are the operators and employees.

I don't know as much about the industry as you. I don't really see why lack of US regulations would open the door to clip shot joints. Can't the UK regulate the business? Or France? I'm not arguing, I just don't get it. Isn't it already illegal?

The State of Washington is trying to ban all publications about poker and gambling....

I don't live in Washington so don't expect me to go march on Olympia for you.

Anyways, if you are really mostly worried about freedom and book bannings, then you hurt your cause by tying it to support of online casinos.

We didn't have casinos in Florida until very recently. I never felt the govt was treading on my constitutional rights by prohibiting them.

The ability to enter a casino in any state has never been a Constitutional right.

 

[dickens1298]

The State of Washington is trying to ban all publications about poker and gambling.
From Books, to magazines, to newsletters, to websites, to newspapers...
What does all these have in common?????
There are all forms of FREEDOM OF SPEECH.
Thus, their laws violates our constitution and again, very few people see this.

When will people start to wake up?
When Washington Officals start ransacking the local Barnes & Noble to remove all gambling related materials?????

I started this thread not as a casino owner, but as an American concerned about our Rights & Liberties.

Our Rights & Liberties are once again being threatened and violated, yet alot of people cannot see nor understand that this is happening.
I find it ironic that people will go and spend hundreds of dollars on their state lottery, not realizing that their odds of being struck by lightning while sitting on the couch watching tv and drinking a pepsi are better then winning a state lottery.
And yet, many people think that the sate lotteries have "FAIR ODDS" when in fact, the odds are stacked far more against people then any online casino could ever hope to do.

And where, pray tell, do you read that Washington is trying to ban ALL gambling material? According to your first post, the only sites that would be pursued would be those with links to online casino sites.

It's interesting to note how quickly vitriol and venom can intensify. You somehow imply that Washington would be prohibiting all literature on gambling, then talk about trampling First Amendment rights. Unfortunately, that's the only way you can link the legislation to any sort of violation of our rights - which are enumerated in the Constitution, save for those under penumbra - and that link is tenuous at best.

 

[Kosop]

Taking our rights? Not so sure about that. Borrowing em a bit, probably. Oral intercourse is illegal in most states, but I am not really going to march on Washington and tell them to update the books. When they put an 'Agent John Smith' in my bedroom to monitor how I am doing it to the wife, I daresay it will become a greater issue for me.

Just out of curiosity, how many folks have been tried/fined/imprisoned regarding the new laws? How many have been tried/fined/imprisoned for gettin a hummer?

Is it dreadfully hypocritical of any goverment to pass a law such as this? Oh baby yes! Could they be better spending their time elsewhere? Most definetely. Can I drive 5 minutes and go to a casino from where I am sitting right now? Why yes I can. But, I can't play there in nothing but my underpants. To be fair to my local casino, I have never asked them if I could play in only my underpants...so the answer to that might be yes.

The US Goverment has been sticking its nose in wayyy to many things that it should stay out of. They regulated Cable TV. Microsoft antitrust. Severe firearms/ammunition restrictions. The list goes on. For our purposes, the goverment does not have a problem with gambling, it has a problem with gambling tax-free. That is the gist of it. They can't tax it, you can't do it. Leave morality out of it and at least call it what it is.

Say the entire US changes it mind and endorses online gaming. What now? Will it be clean? Probably. Will it be fair? Yup. Will it have massive corporate sponsors? Indeed. Will it be taxed to hell and gone? You know it. Try and cash out your 2400 dollar win now and you get 1300 of it.

This is not an issue of protecting americans from themselves, it is an issue of money.

 

[Renegade]

On June 7th, the new law in the state of Washington criminalizing online gaming and poker took effect. While this hasn't seemed to slow down the residents of the Evergreen State from playing in the 300 or so online poker rooms that are scattered across the Internet, the legislation is stretching its reach to extend into another very delicate area: poker information sites.

In an article in the Seattle Times by Danny Westneat on June 17th, it is reported that a poker information site has come under fire from the state. The site, called Integrity Casino Guide, is basically an information site for other Internet users which culls different information on the poker rooms on the Web and offers other pertinent details. The owner of
$1,000,000 freeroll at paradise Poker
the site, Todd Boutte, was concerned about the new law but, since he wasn't taking any wagers on his site, figured that all would be OK.

In a chilling sequence that could be compared to an Orwellian scenario from "1984", the state has said that he is still in violation of the new law in Washington. Because the site contains advertisements, links and information about poker rooms, it is viewed in the same manner as the offshore sites themselves. This could earn Boutte charges punishable with a Class C felony in Washington, which (as we have previously detailed here at PokerNews) is punishment usually reserved for serious criminals. For now, Boutte has shut down his site and is attempting to possibly restart it at sometime, albeit housed outside of the state.

Later in the article, Westneat also points out that his own newspaper publishes poker professional Daniel Negreanu's poker column on a weekly basis and wonders if they are violating the new law. According to the report, the state gambling commissioner, Rick Day, advises the columnist to advise his paper to quit publishing the Negreanu articles and also states that the commission is attempting to hire an investigator whose sole purpose would be to aggressively move on the new state law. All of this should anger poker players not only in Washington but across the United States and around the world.

There is an inherent right of the states to enact laws that govern their citizens. This same right extends up into the federal government and down to the local ones as well.
What is bafflingly surprising and upsetting about Washington's approach here is that this is an attack on SPEAKING about the online game. One of the basic tenets of freedom in the United States is the ability to speak out about pretty much anything, no matter how offensive it may be.

Another thing that is tremendously interesting about this legislation is that the person who sponsored it, Senator Margarita Prentice, has refused interviews from a multitude of media outlets to speak about the law that she brought to reality. Another part of the American system is the right of the people to challenge their legislators and/or guide them on their legislative paths. By denying access to what her thoughts were regarding this piece of legislation, Prentice could be seen as directly violating her duty as an elected official.

So what's next in the state of Washington? Are you going to head into the local Borders or Barnes & Nobles in each city across the state and eradicate the poker books and magazines from the shelves? It is a startling turn of the cards (yes, pun intended) when situations such as this are happening and should serve as a warning and perhaps that kick in the backside that poker players across the United States and particularly in the state of Washington may need to drive to action.


I never asked anyone to jump on a band wagon.

What is happening in Washington is but a taste of what is coming.

Why do I get the feeling that because I am trying to show people what is happening, that I am coming under fire????

IF some people enjoy going through life with their heads buried in the sand, I have no problem with that, but please, if what is taking place in Washington doesn't bother you, stop posting.
Likewise, if the anti-gambling bills also doesn't bother you, please stop posting.

 

[soflat]

IF some people enjoy going through life with their heads buried in the sand, I have no problem with that, but please, if what is taking place in Washington doesn't bother you, stop posting.
Likewise, if the anti-gambling bills also doesn't bother you, please stop posting.

So we should only post our views on Casinomeister.com if we agree with you?

I thought there was some pretty good constructive criticism of your argument, but you don't want to hear it.

 

[Renegade]

Where do you get that idea?????
I swear some people out there are really strange!!!!
Read what you want into it....
Beleive what you want to believe.
I was trying to alert people on what IS going on, but it seems like I'm wasting my time.
I'm done, I have far better things to do then to try and pull your heads out of your asses.

It seems like there is no concern here until the government really does start sending people to jail over this....but hey, guess what?! When that does start to happen....IT'S TOO LATE TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Kosop]

When they start kicking in doors to take our guns, then it is about too late. Until then, we can always fire em ( the goverment ). Honestly bro, if you do not like the way things are going, start campaigning now. If you want to change things, get elected.

If you would like to forcibly eject the present goverment and install one that is more friendly to the less puritan among us, take up arms, convince 51 percent of the population you can do a better job, and make it happen.

I am content to let things go as they are because the goverment has no hope at all of enforcing its legislation. It is illegal for me to do it now, but I do it anyway. When they pass the new laws, will it make it more illegal? Will they monitor my keystrokes to see where I am going while on the internet? Do you think they can? Aside from what we see in the news, I believe that most legislators are intelligent. They are well aware of their own limitations and the limitations of the police state they are trying to create. They know how much they can push the population before the population pushes back. They are giving lip service to a bill which they know they have no hope of enforcing.

Remember prohibition? Well, not personally but the fact that it did happen. Did America stop drinking?

 

[dickens1298]

If you really wish to combat such legislation, you really need to rally public support. Claiming that our civil rights are being trampled or painting some sort of Orwellian picture wouldn't do to muster such support - heck, if you're having difficulties getting support HERE, imagine gathering support among the NON-gaming community.

If you peruse the news articles, the media seems concerned about the following vis-a-vis online gambling:

(1) the increase in gambling addictions
(2) under-age gambling
(3) the lack of regulation leading to possible involvement by organized crime

You can pooh-pooh such concerns all you want, but these concerns become adopted by the public at large. And since it is the support of the public you would need (would any legislator really care that the operator of an online gaming site is complaining about her legislation? One squeaky wheel does not a constituency make), addressing those concerns would be my main line of attack.

You may also want to heed the anti-smoking laws before tackling civil rights. The premise of the public good overriding individual freedoms lie at the core of that issue, and its success - witness the fact that smoking is outlawed within any building in California - shows that legislators ARE willing to "trample" individual rights if they feel that the public is threatened. You may scoff at the ethos of that, but keep in mind that your right to gamble - or smoke, for that matter - is not assured ANYWHERE in the U.S. Constitution.

 

[Tdoggy]

money

What it comes down to is money. The gov't is tired of sitting back and not collecting. Can we say Tax!!! The gov't wants their cut.

Yeah the gov't tried to bank drinking once upon a time...but who got involved and made a fortune "organized crime"

I can't see how the gov't would want to do away with such a profitable business. I can see them taxing it for sure though

But if you tax online casinos do you then tax land casinos??? Even if you win small amounts???

 

[sarahlynn59]

Well as we all know if the government can not profit in anyway from it, then why should we be able to enjoy it.

Our government needs to take a hard look at the preditors they set free on the streets that continually attack our children and scour the internet for victims. These people are forbidden from using the web for such practice. WHO IS WATCHING THEM????

My granddaughter was a victim and it took months of hounding the various law officials before we finally had an arrest and conviction.

Wise up Washington online gambling is the least of your worries.....Try protecting our children from senseless crime before you worry about me depsoiting MY OWN CASH in an online casino.....

 

[Linus]

Every legal casino in the US is licensed by the state where it's located. It pays income taxes on its income, property taxes on its real property, and employs local people - who in turn pay taxes themselves.

Those taxes go to pay for things like roads, courts, schools, and national defense.

Casinos also pay for the licenses themselves - the licenses that make them legal in the first place. Those licenses - as well as state regulatory authorities - help ensure that customers won't get ripped off and that the games will be fair.

If you want to argue that internet gambling should be legal in the US - which it's not, and never has been - you need to answer this question:

Why should The PepperMill or the MGM Grand - US companies who employ Americans and pay US taxes - have to obtain licenses, but not foreign-owned companies in Gibraltar, or Antigua?

 

[Linus]

Also, Renegade, there's a difference between speaking about something, and promoting it. Just something to think about.

 

[lots0]

but keep in mind that your right to gamble - or smoke, for that matter - is not assured ANYWHERE in the U.S. Constitution.

Your totally wrong. Have you ever read the Constitution?

Amendment IX to the Constitution of the United States.

“The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.”

From The Declaration of Independence.

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”


If playing a few hands of poker or gambling makes me happy and I am not hurting anyone (like second hand smoke does)... Then the government should keep its damn nose out of it and that is in the Constitution...

 

[Awai]

until fairly recently you had to pay a tax in a betting shop in the UK when you placed your bet - you could choose to pay it at the time or have it deducted from your winnings. either way that situation has been reversed and it certainly hasnt lead to a host of people battering down the doors to place their weekly earnings on the nags.

Of course there will always be people who push the mark further than everyone else and sadly that will always have concequences be it good or bad. But banning something because of the unfortunate minority seems very heavy handed. The subject of this thread worries me slightly with the pressure applied, specifically in washington, beginning to sound like the "state running peoples lives". And thats something i hoped i'd never see or hear of...

 

[dickens1298]

Your totally wrong. Have you ever read the Constitution?

Amendment IX to the Constitution of the United States.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

From The Declaration of Independence.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


If playing a few hands of poker or gambling makes me happy and I am not hurting anyone (like second hand smoke does)... Then the government should keep its damn nose out of it and that is in the Constitution...

Perhaps you ought to check Constitutional law again.

First off, the Declaration of Independence is NOT the Constitution. The latter is the law of the land - the former was actually drafted over a decade before the Constitution was even ratified.

Secondly, Amendment IX notes the "enumeration" of certain Constitutional rights as not conflicting with "others" retained by the people. This can be read to mean that an amendment is binding insofar as that it does not abridge the Constitutional rights of others.

And THOSE rights - the rights you claim include your right to smoke and gamble - are NOT specified. As for the sanctity of your so-called rights, you may want to remember that Prohibition was passed as a Constitutional amendment, and was removed NOT because a court judged the amendment unconstitutional (or in violation of Amendment IX), but due to a subsequent amendment.

If Amendment IX is generally construed to mean what you claim, then the right to drink would also fall under that category, rendering the Prohibition Amendment null and void.

 

[lots0]

Secondly, Amendment IX notes the "enumeration" of certain Constitutional rights as not conflicting with "others" retained by the people. This can be read to mean that an amendment is binding insofar as that it does not abridge the Constitutional rights of others.

It can also be read to mean that Rights not listed in the Constitution are still retained by the people. I do believe that is the way most ‘experts’ read it. So just because the Right to Gamble is not listed in the Constitution does not mean the Right in question is not guaranteed.

And THOSE rights - the rights you claim include your right to smoke and gamble.

You should re-read what I wrote. I never said anything about smoking being a ‘Right’. Smoking hurts people other than those that smoke, no one has the right to hurt others.

Prohibition was passed as a Constitutional amendment, and was removed NOT because a court judged the amendment unconstitutional (or in violation of Amendment IX), but due to a subsequent amendment.

The Courts can not remove or change a Constitutional Amendment. It is impossible for the courts to make something ‘un-Constitutional’ when it is in fact in the Constitution. The Courts have no say over that, never have, so your argument is moot.

In retrospect, most all Constitutional ‘experts’ believe that Prohibition was against the letter and spirit of the Constitution, that is one reason why they have not tried to make a Constitutional Amendment to make some drugs or Gambling illegal.

It always amazes me how some people use the Constitution to try to take away freedoms and Liberties from the people, when in fact it is there to guarantee those freedoms to the people and restrict the actions of Government.

 

[dickens1298]

It can also be read to mean that Rights not listed in the Constitution are still retained by the people. I do believe that is the way most experts read it. So just because the Right to Gamble is not listed in the Constitution does not mean the Right in question is not guaranteed.

You should re-read what I wrote. I never said anything about smoking being a Right. Smoking hurts people other than those that smoke, no one has the right to hurt others.

The Courts can not remove or change a Constitutional Amendment. It is impossible for the courts to make something un-Constitutional when it is in fact in the Constitution. The Courts have no say over that, never have, so your argument is moot.

In retrospect, most all Constitutional experts believe that Prohibition was against the letter and spirit of the Constitution, that is one reason why they have not tried to make a Constitutional Amendment to make some drugs or Gambling illegal.

It always amazes me how some people use the Constitution to try to take away freedoms and Liberties from the people, when in fact it is there to guarantee those freedoms to the people and restrict the actions of Government.

Could you kindly direct me to those experts who believe that Prohibition was against the spirit of the Constitution? I'd like to see that for myself.

As for the courts' role, my point was that the Prohibition Amendment was not contested on the grounds that it violated Amendment IX, which should have rendered it void since it violated individual rights, in this case the right to drink.

As for online gaming - I am not using the Constitution as an excuse to ban online gaming, but I dislike alarmists who raise a hue and cry that we are approaching a totalitarian state merely because the government wishes to eliminate it. These online gaming supporters would prefer to attack the government and/or the legislation, instead of identifying weaknesses and/or possible rationales for such a government ban (eg concerns over money laundering, underage gambling, gambling addiction).

 

[lots0]

Could you kindly direct me to those experts who believe that Prohibition was against the spirit of the Constitution? I'd like to see that for myself.

Harvard Law Review

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These online gaming supporters would prefer to attack the government and/or the legislation, instead of identifying weaknesses and/or possible rationales for such a government ban (eg concerns over money laundering, underage gambling, gambling addiction).

I think you forgot to mention the other side of the coin, the benefits of legalizing and regulating online gambling, things like jobs, taxes collected and a boost the economic factors and a reduction in the trade deficit.

Sounds to me like you just want to discuss why online gambling should be 'outlawed' and not reasons why it should be legal and regulated.

The same arguments that are used against the online casinos now have been heard for ages by the ground based casinos... Most all of the arguments have been beaten to death over the years. Most of the evils of gambling that are so feared by people that want to outlaw online casinos have been delt with by the ground based casinos and have not been proven to be as evil as predicted, even after hundreds of years of ground based casinos.

 

[dickens1298]

Harvard Law Review

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I think you forgot to mention the other side of the coin, the benefits of legalizing and regulating online gambling, things like jobs, taxes collected and a boost the economic factors and a reduction in the trade deficit.

Sounds to me like you just want to discuss why online gambling should be 'outlawed' and not reasons why it should be legal and regulated.

The same arguments that are used against the online casinos now have been heard for ages by the ground based casinos... Most all of the arguments have been beaten to death over the years. Most of the evils of gambling that are so feared by people that want to outlaw online casinos have been delt with by the ground based casinos and have not been proven to be as evil as predicted, even after hundreds of years of ground based casinos.

No mention of the Prohibition in your referenced document - so I'd still love to see the legal opinions you had noted earlier.

As for my stance regarding online gaming, posters like yourself and Renegade can label me whatever you wish (ironic to claim that I am against online gaming, since I play at various online casinos myself), and speak of whatever rights are being trampled upon, but until the lightning rod issues that the legislators are purporting are the reasons to outlaw online gambling are addressed, there is more of a chance of such legislation being passed than not.

The bottom line is that this has been coming - and everyone knew it. Most credit card companies disallow online casino transactions because of this gray area, and the major casinos have shied away from the online gaming market for the same reason(s). Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if such legislation DOES pass.

So - my question to you is - what would you do? Continue to harp about your rights being violated, and hope for the best should online gamers begin to be prosecuted (which is unlikely, however...)?

My suggestion is simple - find the reasons why the legislators would want such a law to be passed, and address those concerns. It may not avert the inevitable, but it's certainly a worthwhile approach...

 

[lots0]

So - my question to you is - what would you do? Continue to harp about your rights being violated...

You better believe it. I am going to yell and scream from the roof tops, till I live in a world where you can do what you want and I can do what I want, as long as we don’t hurt anyone doing it. Of course I do believe I will die long before that happens.

My suggestion is simple...

And not viable.
When Chicken Little is running around the barn yard, yelling and screaming that the sky is falling, its perdy hard to stop em and try to convince em that the sky is in fact not falling, but that some bird really just craped on his head.

The same thing with the online casino biz, all the ‘Concerns’ of those that want to outlaw online gambling are the very same concerns that the people who wanted to outlaw ground based casinos voiced... Money Laundering, Prostitution, Drugs, Drag Queens, Elvis Impersonator Invasion, Herpes, Gay Marriage and Organized Crime etc.

These are all non-issues, if the biz is Regulated... Just to prove my point, look what has happened with the ground based casinos. All those so called ‘issues’ never really came to become problems (all except for the Elvis Impersonators and Drag Queens... ).

In other words, there are other reasons why online gambling is being targeted than the ones you and others keep repeating... So addressing the problems you site is like trying to stop Chicken Little and telling him the sky is not falling...

Want to know what I think.... I think.... all the Native Casino Money in the pockets of the Sponsor and Co-sponsors of this bill might be the ‘real’ reason this bill has gotten as far as it has and if the money keeps flowing and the Repubs still feel the need to show everyone how ‘Moral’ they are (and they do), this bill is a sure bet to pass in the House. Thats what I think.

 

[lots0]

No mention of the Prohibition in your referenced document

“Statutory Speech Bubbles, First Amendment Overbreadth, and Improper Legislative Purpose”

I think what your looking for is in the “Improper Legislative Purpose” section.

 

[dickens1298]

Statutory Speech Bubbles, First Amendment Overbreadth, and Improper Legislative Purpose

I think what your looking for is in the Improper Legislative Purpose section.

Actually, the "Improper Legislative Purpose" section addresses the use of the First Amendment to test suspicions about illicit government purpose. The Prohibition Amendment was never alluded to in the document.

 

[dickens1298]

You better believe it. I am going to yell and scream from the roof tops, till I live in a world where you can do what you want and I can do what I want, as long as we dont hurt anyone doing it. Of course I do believe I will die long before that happens.

And not viable.
When Chicken Little is running around the barn yard, yelling and screaming that the sky is falling, its perdy hard to stop em and try to convince em that the sky is in fact not falling, but that some bird really just craped on his head.

The same thing with the online casino biz, all the Concerns of those that want to outlaw online gambling are the very same concerns that the people who wanted to outlaw ground based casinos voiced... Money Laundering, Prostitution, Drugs, Drag Queens, Elvis Impersonator Invasion, Herpes, Gay Marriage and Organized Crime etc.

These are all non-issues, if the biz is Regulated... Just to prove my point, look what has happened with the ground based casinos. All those so called issues never really came to become problems (all except for the Elvis Impersonators and Drag Queens... ).

In other words, there are other reasons why online gambling is being targeted than the ones you and others keep repeating... So addressing the problems you site is like trying to stop Chicken Little and telling him the sky is not falling...

Want to know what I think.... I think.... all the Native Casino Money in the pockets of the Sponsor and Co-sponsors of this bill might be the real reason this bill has gotten as far as it has and if the money keeps flowing and the Repubs still feel the need to show everyone how Moral they are (and they do), this bill is a sure bet to pass in the House. Thats what I think.[/QUOTE

The legislation is going to pass. Why? Not enough people care to protest it. And those who DO care would rather talk again and again about civil rights issues - and not realize that their talking points are not being heard.

 

[pacers31]

yep, it's gonna pass the house, and all we can do is hope that the senate doesn't follow suit, or they run out of time in this session of congress. If the morality police have their way, all us gamers will probably have to have a giant "G" sewn onto our clothes to identify us as gamblers!! They wouldn't want to do something really useful like figure a way out of the lousy war or helping our own citizens out here, that would be too "compassionate" for these conservatives!

 

[lots0]

...and not realize that their talking points are not being heard.

Ya it is rather hard for our elected officals to hear a few talking points about civil liberties when Native American Casinos are filling their pockets with money...

In American politics, money talks LOUD...

 

[Auditor]

More unreal stuff out of Washington State this weekend:
Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

 

[Renegade]

I've been reading and will only make a few comments.

I saw a comment about guns, something to the effect of when they start taking away our guns.....

Ummm, they have been taking away our guns for awhile now. Why do you think 90% of all laws are Felonys????
Because if someone is convicted of a felony, they lose The Right To Keep and Bare Arms.

If this bill passes, All bank accounts of every american will be monitored.
I hear O' they can't monitor that....If they couldn't, it wouldn't be in the bill.

Just as all internet activity will be monitored. Every website that someone visits, you will be watched.

And if they think you are a gambler, your phones will be tapped.

For those that believe that they can't do this, for whatever reason, It's time to wake up and smell the coffee.
They can do it, and they WILL DO IT.

 

[Chatmaster]

Renegade, I believe you are spot on.

The main concern here is the access to privacy by government. This is to be regarded as a VERY serious step into a wrong direction for the entire internet community. There are some HUGE privacy issues. Essentially this gives legal access to things government already have access to. That is the only logical assumption one can make! It is also an international issue not just for the US people! They are completely ignoring the WTO still! Nothing has happened. This is a cheap shot at getting some legal access on infringing on peoples privacy.

If this had anything to do with the protection of the US citizens they would have opt for legalizing and controling it. Now once again they are pushing it underground! If and I say once again If! they had good intentions I am sorry to say then we have a more serious problem here. Then it means there are reps in the HR that are of very low intelect!

 

[Renegade]

The sad truth is, it's not for the benefit OF THE PEOPLE.
It's another form of control.

How many people have that Onstar thing in their cars??????
Do they really believe that the Onstar helps them?????
That is just another way for them to know where you are at all times.

Onstar can start your car, ever stop to think that if they ever wanted you they could also turn your car off?????

What about that great ploy about finger printing your children????
Do you honestly believe that fingerprinting an 18 month old is going to help them find that child if the child is missing????

Hell no, it's another means to control. Now they have your children's finger prints.

Sad....People really are gullible.

How many know of history???
When everyone in France, with the exception of the elite, was thrown into prison???
Everyone was in prison before France finally woke up and smelt the coffee.
This did not happened once, but TWICE!!!!!

Wake up and smell the coffee.

The Internet was suppose to be the one place where people of the world could come together and meet without fear of governments.
Now the (USA) government wants control of it.
They want to know where you are going, what you are doing, what your children are doing, what your spending your money on, who your talking too, what your writting, and if a household visits a site deemed to be illegal by the powers that be, look out, because the entire household is now red flagged and tagged.

And Oh, remember when the teachers and the schools was telling the children that if they see their parents doing something illegal, the children was to report it to the school????

Food for thought.