RTG software backend issues - RTP etc.

[plasticnote]

Hi DogBoy:
Thank you for all the information you provided, much appreciated.
I am a long time RTG slots player and enjoyed alot of its australia style slots.
I play alot RTG slots every week and still do.

In recent years (after 2008), I have had more and more "bad playing sessions" across all RTG casinos I played.

From the information you provided, the RTP is based on schedule.
Do you have any deep understanding of RTG software package(System)? Is it possible that some third party software( or maybe done by RTG itself ) sitting in between the RNG and RTG software, which alter or block certain type/amount of wins.

Many RTG slots do not play like it used to. For example Derby Dollar, I have hit 6 RJs on this slots till 2008, so you can imagine how many spins I have done on this slots. This game has behaved so different (worse) recently.

Sorry for my level of English.
Thank you

 

[DogBoy001]

Thanks for the response - Can the Coupon percentage be set? Coupons are obviously not unique to any individual but rather distributed freely.

Nate

No, this is effectively still the same thing.

It would still require interchangeable RTP set to a specific player, on the basis of play on a particular coupon.
This would lead to multiple interations of play on the same game on the same casino on different RTP's, which is not how the system is designed.

Woooof

 

[DiamondGeezer]

I think the suggestion that independent people such as forum members devote some time to mapping reel strips is a worthy one.
Even without reference to variable elements such as "pick a prize" features, and variations made to free game feature reel strips (which are almost exclusively improved, not declined), this should give a pretty clear picture of RTP being 91% or greater.

Woooof

Well that sounds like advice we should implement .

My only question is that bonus rounds and the RJ contribution would add up to a sizeable % of RTP. The RJ element has been stated I think but I don't think we know the bonus round RTP percentages for 91, 95 and 97.5% games.

How would we be able to overcome this exactly? Bonus round percentages of RTP will vary according to the variance of the game I guess. This is a pure guess but the base payout from mapping the reels might be say 75-80% so it wouldn't leave us any clearer I think.

As I see it a 2m spin analysis in free play would be the better option. Some systems return the results without graphics display which would make it a lot quicker, I don't know if RTG has this option though. A lot of people wouldn't trust/believe free play is exactly the same but I am not in that camp and believe what you said about freeplay being the same.

 

[DogBoy001]

Hi DogBoy:
Thank you for all the information you provided, much appreciated.
I am a long time RTG slots player and enjoyed alot of its australia style slots.
I play alot RTG slots every week and still do.

In recent years (after 2008), I have had more and more "bad playing sessions" across all RTG casinos I played.

From the information you provided, the RTP is based on schedule.
Do you have any deep understanding of RTG software package(System)? Is it possible that some third party software( or maybe done by RTG itself ) sitting in between the RNG and RTG software, which alter or block certain type/amount of wins.

Many RTG slots do not play like it used to. For example Derby Dollar, I have hit 6 RJs on this slots till 2008, so you can imagine how many spins I have done on this slots. This game has behaved so different (worse) recently.

Sorry for my level of English.
Thank you

No, there is no 3rd party middleware.

I'm not certain why you'd be experiencing major changes in Derby Dollars. The feature hit rate, for instance, averages at 1 in 76 for the top RTP and 1 in 82 for the bottom.
Base games yield almost identical RTP.

Derby Dollars is actually a fairly low variance slot, so it's unusual that you've experienced large fluctuations over a prolonged period.

Well that sounds like advice we should implement .

My only question is that bonus rounds and the RJ contribution would add up to a sizeable % of RTP. The RJ element has been stated I think but I don't think we know the bonus round RTP percentages for 91, 95 and 97.5% games.

How would we be able to overcome this exactly? Bonus round percentages of RTP will vary according to the variance of the game I guess. This is a pure guess but the base payout from mapping the reels might be say 75-80% so it wouldn't leave us any clearer I think.

As I see it a 2m spin analysis in free play would be the better option. Some systems return the results without graphics display which would make it a lot quicker, I don't know if RTG has this option though. A lot of people wouldn't trust/believe free play is exactly the same but I am not in that camp and believe what you said about freeplay being the same.

Random jackpot RTP is stated in the rules pages at being no more than 1.5% (it's less than that level) of the total.

As feature reel strips are almost universally either the same or better than the base game reel strips, mapping the base game on many will give a baseline for the total RTP through extrapolation.

Woooof

 

[4 of a kind]

No, this is effectively still the same thing.

It would still require interchangeable RTP set to a specific player, on the basis of play on a particular coupon.
This would lead to multiple interations of play on the same game on the same casino on different RTP's, which is not how the system is designed.

Woooof

Your statement above specified that coupons couldn't default to different RTP levels for different players at the same time since the system was not designed to handle more then one RTP setting at a time and I would assume for each individual game. I have heard this more then once that whatever a particular game is set at, all players must share the same setting.

Since this is not how the system was designed, is it possible to even design such a possibility? If it were possible what would be involved in creating such a option? Could an option like this coupon default be designed and game programmers not have any idea it even exists?

It's obvious when you go to Atlantic City and lets say you see a row of seven triple diamond machines which are standing alone and separately. (and of course not interconnected for some mega jackpot) the player has no idea if he's going to choose to play a 83% setting or a 95% setting. Since online slots don't have this option of individual standing games to balance things out and are forced to have all players at the same time share the same setting lets say in this case at 95%, wouldn't this be a huge disadvantage for online gaming? Of course if they have thousands of players playing 24/7 it wouldn't matter. Yet, I doubt this is the case since it appears they are endlessly pursuing depositors with bribes of bonuses.

You also mentioned in the past that the bigger the bet being placed the better the chances are for that person betting bigger would have for hitting the random jackpot. Would that in itself be considered a different RTP setting for the $100.00 dollar spinner when compared to the 5 cent spinner?

Is it possible for operators to even have the power to lower settings less then 91%? Even if everyone playing on that machine are sharing the same setting?

 

[Nifty29]

OK, so now we have a dilemma or sorts.

On the one hand, we have 4OAK's anonymous 'source' who tells him that not only can RTG operators increase the house edge to as much as 80%, but they can also do it on a per-coupon or per-player basis.

On the other hand, we have a software engineer, who works/worked with RTG games and helped design them, who states that this is not possible.

Unless this mysterious person comes out and provides some evidence or explains it to us in detail like Dogboy has, I just don't see who we can give 4OAK's claims any creedence at all - it is just hearsay, and possibly from someone with an agenda of some kind. Do I know that for sure? Well, no, because we don't know who it is. At this point, it is just 'some guy' who told someone some things that cannot be substantiated by anyone.

I was willing to keep an open mind when the claims first surfaced, but I must admit it seemed very unlikely at the time and, now that Dogmeister has stated it cannot happen, it's about as likely as Virtual Casino paying in 24 hours.

We sometimes overlook the fact that casinos need winners. Who goes back to a casino where they 'never win' (NB this is not the same as 'never cashout').

Someone else also mentioned (in another thread AFAIK) that if these kinds of underhanded and dishonest activities were being carried out on a regular basis as some suggest, then surely after 10 years there would be hundreds if not thousands of p*ssed off ex-employees who would jump at the chance to bring down the people who sacked them - and yet we hear virtually nothing at all. Just a few whackjobs like CasinoJack(ass) and others who couldn't lie straight in bed.

I'll take the word of someone who has established some credibility and respect around here over some unknown person from who knows where any day of the week.

@4OAK - you do keep saying you don't have any proof. Why not ask your 'contact' for some? Surely they could provide something without identifying themselves. Copy of some kind of owner manual etc, or something like that. I really find it hard to accept that there is absolutely nothing concrete available that would validate what you say.

 

[DogBoy001]

You also mentioned in the past that the bigger the bet being placed the better the chances are for that person betting bigger would have for hitting the random jackpot. Would that in itself be considered a different RTP setting for the $100.00 dollar spinner when compared to the 5 cent spinner?

No, RTP is constant, as the probability to trigger is proportional to the increase in wager.

1) A prize of $1000 to a player betting $1 is 1000x bet, and they have (for ease of argument), a 1 in 100,000 chance of hitting this jackpot per spin.
Their RTP = 1,000/100,000 = 1%

2) A prize of $1000 to a player betting $100 is 10x bet, and they have (for ease of argument), a 1 in 1,000 chance of hitting this jackpot per spin.
Their RTP = 10/1000 = 1%

The proportional increase in trigger odds versus relative value of the prize versus wager makes this a constant RTP scenario.

Woooof

 

[4 of a kind]

I am only relaying to others what I've been told. Since online gaming operates in the dark with no way for anyone to actually know what the rules are that they must abide by, if there actually are any rules being enforced, online gaming and yourself should be willing to debate accusations if even they are wrong.

DogBoy who no doubt is a technician, has never posted anything other then words.

Posting access to unauthorized files would be followed up with endless serious consequences to include federal charges, copyright infringements, etc. just to name a few and would not be worth the trouble for any person.

Online gaming decided to remain anonymous leaving themselves open for such debates even if they are ridiculous.

 

[DogBoy001]

On the other hand, we have a software engineer, who works/worked with RTG games and helped design them, who states that this is not possible.

Just to clarify:

1) I'm not a software engineer, I'm a game designer (I do the design and mathematics, other people do the implementation)
2) Our company designed/designs and QA's the reel series slots on an ongoing basis

Woooof

 

[4 of a kind]

Thanks DogBoy for your input, and my comments above about just words being printed were not intended to be derogatory towards you.

 

[silcnlayc]

Just to clarify:

1) I'm not a software engineer, I'm a game designer (I do the design and mathematics, other people do the implementation)
2) Our company designed/designs and QA's the reel series slots on an ongoing basis

Woooof

Have you played the games you designed for any length of time to see how it was implemented by others?

When did you first start to design these games for RTG?

So, being privvy to the back end after implementation is not one of your duties or to check to see if games are playing as intended?

.

 

[DogBoy001]

Have you played the games you designed for any length of time to see how it was implemented by others?

When did you first start to design these games for RTG?

So, being privvy to the back end after implementation is not one of your duties or to check to see if games are playing as intended?

.

The first reel series games went live in 2004

And yes, the games are played extensively (though occasional bugs do creep through, mainly obscure display glitches)

Multi-batch spin tests for the different RTP's are also used to verify mathematical accuracy (as tests such as this can quickly show any problems with the theoretical maths)
Taken together, these provide a pretty good picture of how things have been implemented.

Woooof

 

[Nate]

OK, so now we have a dilemma or sorts.

On the one hand, we have 4OAK's anonymous 'source' who tells him that not only can RTG operators increase the house edge to as much as 80%, but they can also do it on a per-coupon or per-player basis.

On the other hand, we have a software engineer, who works/worked with RTG games and helped design them, who states that this is not possible.

Unless this mysterious person comes out and provides some evidence or explains it to us in detail like Dogboy has, I just don't see who we can give 4OAK's claims any creedence at all - it is just hearsay, and possibly from someone with an agenda of some kind. Do I know that for sure? Well, no, because we don't know who it is. At this point, it is just 'some guy' who told someone some things that cannot be substantiated by anyone.

I was willing to keep an open mind when the claims first surfaced, but I must admit it seemed very unlikely at the time and, now that Dogmeister has stated it cannot happen, it's about as likely as Virtual Casino paying in 24 hours.

We sometimes overlook the fact that casinos need winners. Who goes back to a casino where they 'never win' (NB this is not the same as 'never cashout').

Someone else also mentioned (in another thread AFAIK) that if these kinds of underhanded and dishonest activities were being carried out on a regular basis as some suggest, then surely after 10 years there would be hundreds if not thousands of p*ssed off ex-employees who would jump at the chance to bring down the people who sacked them - and yet we hear virtually nothing at all. Just a few whackjobs like CasinoJack(ass) and others who couldn't lie straight in bed.

I'll take the word of someone who has established some credibility and respect around here over some unknown person from who knows where any day of the week.


@4OAK - you do keep saying you don't have any proof. Why not ask your 'contact' for some? Surely they could provide something without identifying themselves. Copy of some kind of owner manual etc, or something like that. I really find it hard to accept that there is absolutely nothing concrete available that would validate what you say.

Ahh Nifty... ever the Kangaroo - Real befitting avatar

No offence, but why do you JUMP all over matters that could be ignored if you feel that they are not justified? 4OAK said he can't prove it... its just that...

You do not need to accept anything he says. He doesn't ask anyone to challenge it either. He has an opinion (be it hearsay). You can't prove or disprove anything Dogboy001 or 4OAK is saying without your own evidence.
Dogboy001 has explained to you in detail but has not afforded evidence that what he says is in fact true... How can you take his comments at face value and discredit another forum member even though no evidence was supplied by Dogboy001 (No disrespect intended here).

If Dogboy001 has posted screenshots of the RTP settings, please direct me to them... I will take note and it will justify why you dont need evidence to back his posts.

With regards to disgruntled employees, I do not believe that what they are doing is 'illegal'. I do believe that whatever adjustments take place are in the best interest of the Casino and NOT the player. It is in the interest of maximising profits and minimising losses. It is in the interest of offering a game at the lowest possible returns to push up revenue wherever possible... No conspiracy here for 1000's of employees to come out and scream. As pointed out in a previous thread - There is a 'SuperUser' account that is available. Normal employees do not have access. i suppose this cuts the 1000's to under 10?

@Dogboy001

My post is intended to point out that no evidence was supplied from either end, yet forum members are continually discredited for their posts while others are thanked...

Can you kindly elaborate on the Product design. After you have designed the game and it is mathematically sound - Who implements the game into the RTG Software Package and programs the options for changes in RTP?

Nate

 

[silcnlayc]

@Dogboy001

My post is intended to point out that no evidence was supplied from either end, yet forum members are continually discredited for their posts while others are thanked...

Can you kindly elaborate on the Product design. After you have designed the game and it is mathematically sound - Who implements the game into the RTG Software Package and programs the options for changes in RTP?

Nate

Thank you Nate, for asking my next question. Once it leaves the QC (Quality contol testing), do you have any other interaction with the product once it is received by the entity that will launch it? The reason I ask this is because, as a computer/laptop builder...I know how much testing is involved in a product to make sure it is 99.9% bug free before giving it to the enduser.

Now, once I configure the product to the request of the person using it , I have NO control on how the enduser will adjust the configuration to perform the way they want it by adding/removing some features that I have installed for it to work the way it was INTENDED.

What I would like to know, once the product reaches the destination, and it is out of your hands, how can you be sure they have not continued to tinker with it just a tad more for their benifit (this relates to all the obvious updates)? Do you actually go back as an enduser and play these games after releasing them to the owners to make sure nothing has been changed and they play as they were intended? Would you have access to the "backend" after releasing the product to check to make sure "nothing has changed" between your creating/testing and releasing vs their acceptance and launching?

I have a set standard for each computer/laptop to show the exact configurations ...so I would know just what was modified if the product fails at any given time. Do you keep this on hand when re-testing your product as an end user to see if anything was modified?

I still believe, that many things have been changed in the last few years. To say they haven't , I ask how you would know this without being privvy to the "backend" at this time after launching without the specs you set the product at and comparing it from the testing and releasing stage.

.

 

[RedAndi]

Been following this discussion, interesting.

Just want to add on the issue of ex employees not speaking out-
I have to assume people who have access to certain delicate information likely have to sign confidentiality agreements.
I doubt many former employees will risk legal retribution from these companies (not to mention probable blacklisting within their industry which will more or less kill future job opportunities) just to come to an online forum and start dropping bombs.
Any company that has uniquely designed/engineered products makes you sign these, would imagine a place like RTG does also.

 

[DogBoy001]

Can you kindly elaborate on the Product design. After you have designed the game and it is mathematically sound - Who implements the game into the RTG Software Package and programs the options for changes in RTP?

There are simulation tests conducted prior to integration, just based off the theoretical mathematics.
However, spin testing and most of the QA happens after integration by RTG, not before.

Woooof

 

[all4greed]

There was an issue with display of non-picked prizes, where it was apparently showing non-picked prizes using an even distribution chance, rather than the actual pick prize chance.
This should have been fixed though, and non-picked prizes should use the same probability table as the picked prize.

As with most pick prize features, in order to balance RTP there is not always an equal chance of awarding each possible outcome (e.g.: If a pick may award 2, 3, 5, 10 or 100 free games, it's pretty likely that the chance to get 100 free games is much lower than the chance to get lesser amounts).

Texan Tycoon is in this category.
For a 3 scatter trigger, for instance, there is a much higher chance to get 8, 10 or 15 games versus the 25.
This changes if triggering on 4 scatters, with no chance to get 8 free games, and a good chance to get 25.
On 5 scatters you will always get 25.

Woooof

So if 3 scatters show up and I pick 8 spins and the other two scatters reveal say a 15 and a 25, could I have actually chosen the 25 by picking that specific scatter?

Sorry for being technically dense...

 

[vinylweatherman]

Been following this discussion, interesting.

Just want to add on the issue of ex employees not speaking out-
I have to assume people who have access to certain delicate information likely have to sign confidentiality agreements.
I doubt many former employees will risk legal retribution from these companies (not to mention probable blacklisting within their industry which will more or less kill future job opportunities) just to come to an online forum and start dropping bombs.
Any company that has uniquely designed/engineered products makes you sign these, would imagine a place like RTG does also.

This is why it seems SO ODD that there are all these "insiders" emerging from the woodwork to make these claims of dark practises within RTG and it's operators. A CREDIBLE employee would NOT breach his own contract, and the employee of a rogue operation would worry about extra- judicial repercussions (such as having their legs broken).

 

[4 of a kind]

Dogboy001,

Based on your knowledge there are 3 different RTP settings available and of course with minor variants. If a casino changed the RTP setting lets say from 95% to 91%, how long would it take for a technician to verify the change was successful and the 91% RTP change is accurate?

Since it would be obvious when an operator is altering and mixing up the 3 settings the RTP would fall somewhere between 91 and 98%. So during testing is the only requirement for RTP ratings is to fall somewhere between 91 and 98%?

Putting aside what any software provider might want their highest setting to be; (like RTG we know would be 91%) do you by chance actually know what any online regulators would actually allow the highest settings to be?

Since as far as you know RTG’s highest setting is 91%, is their any chance what so ever beyond your knowledge that their could be a higher one available your not privy too?

If an operator were in fact able to set their RTP below 91%, and decided to run a coupon special for a weekend and use this lower setting, but return it back to 91% on Sunday evening after it expires how could anyone to include technicians know this took place? Even if a player hit the Random Jackpot during this time that wouldn't matter as far as the quick income goes for the casino from the coupon special since that money pool was never theirs anyway. The amount of spins over one weekend would never be enough to confirm anything.

 

[4 of a kind]

This is why it seems SO ODD that there are all these "insiders" emerging from the woodwork to make these claims of dark practises within RTG and it's operators.

How many different insiders are you aware of ?

 

[RedAndi]

Someone else also mentioned (in another thread AFAIK) that if these kinds of underhanded and dishonest activities were being carried out on a regular basis as some suggest, then surely after 10 years there would be hundreds if not thousands of p*ssed off ex-employees who would jump at the chance to bring down the people who sacked them - and yet we hear virtually nothing at all. Just a few whackjobs like CasinoJack(ass) and others who couldn't lie straight in bed.

I'll take the word of someone who has established some credibility and respect around here over some unknown person from who knows where any day of the week.

@4OAK - you do keep saying you don't have any proof. Why not ask your 'contact' for some? Surely they could provide something without identifying themselves. Copy of some kind of owner manual etc, or something like that. I really find it hard to accept that there is absolutely nothing concrete available that would validate what you say.

Actually VWM I posted about signing the confidentiality agreements in response to this post by Nifty, I should have quoted him to make it clear to all (quoted it here though).
Anyway, just saying that is probably why you are not seeing any former employees jumping out in the open waving proof around.
Not saying there ARE or AREN'T people who may or may not have information, just saying IF someone does they may be trying to pass it along very, very, very, VERRRRY discreetly.
I dunno, just posing "what ifs"....carry on all

 

[plasticnote]

No, there is no 3rd party middleware.

I'm not certain why you'd be experiencing major changes in Derby Dollars. The feature hit rate, for instance, averages at 1 in 76 for the top RTP and 1 in 82 for the bottom.
Base games yield almost identical RTP.

Derby Dollars is actually a fairly low variance slot, so it's unusual that you've experienced large fluctuations over a prolonged period.

Thanks Dogboy for the information. much appreciated.

I knew this is a low variance slot, and so it can give me fair chances on hitting RJ with Larger bets (10 or 20 per spin).

Also for a low variance slot, RTP will be much stable, however, this is where I start to suspect based on my many years of playing on this game.

If the option turbo play is switched off on this game(In old days, there was no such option), the reel is spinning slowly,You could see the second reel clearly. The feature is triggered by scatter landing on 1st and 2nd reel. In old days, if you got scatter landing on the 1st reel, you will be able to tell if or not you get the feature triggered by looking the second reel spinning. A lot of long time RTG players can do this too.

However, I still remembered, there was an update in year 2009, suddenly, I could no longer tell if or not I get the feature by looking at 2nd reel. The scatter will sometimes fall off more than I expected. Hence the trigger rate is reduced by IMO 30 ~ 40% (I counted myself, number of times I think I will get the feature but in fact I did not get).

I can understand regardless RTP switch between 91%, 95% and 97% , it will not bring so much big changes to the feature trigger rate onto this low variance game.

So one possible situation is:
centain logic or middleware(in between the RNG output and slots game input) blocked or altered the outcome of RNG. therefore,even if the schedule of slots is 91% RTP,
the actual RTP could be lower. for example, by playing 20$ per spin, you would never get 5 scatters. if you do, then let 's change it to 4. this kind situation was called
"Session Hijacking" or not I could not remember.
This is my guess only, no proof, and never will be any proof without knowledge of source code.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DogBoy your job is dealing with slots design and providing interface/API in order to integrate with RTG or other game system.
Are any slots you designed self-containing RNG module within slot package itself? thank you for the answers again, much appreciated it.

Anyone has similar experience on this game? or maybe other games you often play? Please do let me know.

Thank you

 

[felicie]

Could this be the end of Bickersville? I doubt it but a damn good start. Good thread. But I'm still not playing at RTG's cause something's up.

 

[XOXOXOXOXOX]

oooooppps - posted in wrong thread

 

[DogBoy001]

So if 3 scatters show up and I pick 8 spins and the other two scatters reveal say a 15 and a 25, could I have actually chosen the 25 by picking that specific scatter?

Sorry for being technically dense...

These pick features work in 2 ways.

In this particular game, and with the majority of on-line products, the result is determined irrespective of where you pick, and the "non-picked" prizes are pretty much eye candy.

In other games, mainly B&M ones, each selectable area generates its own result from the probability schedule before the pick is made. In these games the choice will make a difference.

Woooof

 

[DogBoy001]

However, I still remembered, there was an update in year 2009, suddenly, I could no longer tell if or not I get the feature by looking at 2nd reel. The scatter will sometimes fall off more than I expected. Hence the trigger rate is reduced by IMO 30 ~ 40% (I counted myself, number of times I think I will get the feature but in fact I did not get).

I can understand regardless RTP switch between 91%, 95% and 97% , it will not bring so much big changes to the feature trigger rate onto this low variance game.

It would be interesting if you could request your logs from the casinos you play at, just to see what the average number of spins per feature turned out to be.

Long-time play logs would be able to show whether there was anything outside the realms of variance.

DogBoy your job is dealing with slots design and providing interface/API in order to integrate with RTG or other game system.
Are any slots you designed self-containing RNG module within slot package itself? thank you for the answers again, much appreciated it.

No worries re the responses.

However in relation to A), slots are rarely designed to be a stand-alone operation unto themselves (in any server-based system, B&M stand-alone machines are a different kettle of fish).
RTG's system, as with the other major providers, uses server-driven results to all games.

Woooof

 

[deucebag]

Just a note: I have from what I consider a credible source (that I cannot name), that some of the RTG video slots can be set to 86%. I confirmed with Dogboy001 via PM some time ago that his company did not make those slots, so he has no knowledge of them.

 

[Papa-ya]

Lots of good discussion here to chew on, but I am wondering why if you do a fresh download of an rtg, log in and then it logs off for a newer version of the casino.
How is there a version newer than a fresh download?
Why does this happen? Some casinos do this nearly everytime you open while others rarely do this. Why the difference?

 

[Nifty29]

Just a note: I have from what I consider a credible source (that I cannot name), that some of the RTG video slots can be set to 86%. I confirmed with Dogboy001 via PM some time ago that his company did not make those slots, so he has no knowledge of them.

Yes I believe dogboy is involved with the real series slots only.

I'm not sure anyone has referred to anything other than the real series slots in this thread as the 'other' slots are totally different animals AFAIK.

Based on my own experience of those other slots it wouldn't surprise me if they were set lower.

 

[DogBoy001]

Lots of good discussion here to chew on, but I am wondering why if you do a fresh download of an rtg, log in and then it logs off for a newer version of the casino.
How is there a version newer than a fresh download?
Why does this happen? Some casinos do this nearly everytime you open while others rarely do this. Why the difference?

Heya,

It's unusual to have a fresh download followed by a newer version update.

Typically the "newer version" will happen whenever there is a new game release (which happens pretty much every month).
The lobby addition of this new game to the menu system requires the "new lobby" update.

Woooof

 

[slotjunkie]

Heya,

It's unusual to have a fresh download followed by a newer version update.

Typically the "newer version" will happen whenever there is a new game release (which happens pretty much every month).
The lobby addition of this new game to the menu system requires the "new lobby" update.

Woooof

I don't understand, because this happens all the time, even when there is NOTHING new(that I can see anyway)!

 

[vinylweatherman]

How many different insiders are you aware of ?

There have been a small number of those who claim to either work for, or used to work for, the less reliable RTG operators. They have given out "explosive" information about the inner workings of these operators, and it has made the RTG stable look VERY bad.

Of particular note were phyqster (ex Virtual), and Casinojack (playfair/casino33).
There have also been others who have NOT posted as the above pair, but who have passed information to CM members to reveal on their behalf, but without risking their employer, or RTG, finding out who they were.

When 4OK revealed information from HIS discreet source, RTG took it VERY seriously indeed, and confirmed this was a GENUINE insider, who had revealed GENUINE information that RTG did NOT want in the public domain, which was a screenshot of the operator console in "rtp setting mode". The problem is that this mode is not even supposed to exist, because we are told that such requests have to go through RTG, and can no longer be done by the operator.

I too have received the occasional bite of "inside information" from sources who have asked not to be identified (so I won't). I have then looked at this information, and used it alongside my own observations to see if it "holds water".

These pick features work in 2 ways.

In this particular game, and with the majority of on-line products, the result is determined irrespective of where you pick, and the "non-picked" prizes are pretty much eye candy.

In other games, mainly B&M ones, each selectable area generates its own result from the probability schedule before the pick is made. In these games the choice will make a difference.
Woooof

Given the level of mistrust, would this not have been a better option to use online. The first option was prone to bugs, where the "eye candy" does not work from the same probability table as the actual result, making the game look rigged from the players' point of view.

Heya,

It's unusual to have a fresh download followed by a newer version update.

Typically the "newer version" will happen whenever there is a new game release (which happens pretty much every month).
The lobby addition of this new game to the menu system requires the "new lobby" update.
Woooof

This explains ONE of the "new lobby" updates each month, what about the other five

Players are NEVER EVER given a set of "release notes" for these updates, which you WOULD get with any other piece of software. This then leads to suspicions that these additional updates are not something the casino wants to tell us about, such as implementation of RTP changes. The frequency with which this happens DOES fit the idea of RTP being changed regularly to cater for differing coupon promos, even if this is totally wrong.

 

[Papa-ya]

There have been a small number of those who claim to either work for, or used to work for, the less reliable RTG operators. They have given out "explosive" information about the inner workings of these operators, and it has made the RTG stable look VERY bad.

Of particular note were phyqster (ex Virtual), and Casinojack (playfair/casino33).
There have also been others who have NOT posted as the above pair, but who have passed information to CM members to reveal on their behalf, but without risking their employer, or RTG, finding out who they were.

When 4OK revealed information from HIS discreet source, RTG took it VERY seriously indeed, and confirmed this was a GENUINE insider, who had revealed GENUINE information that RTG did NOT want in the public domain, which was a screenshot of the operator console in "rtp setting mode". The problem is that this mode is not even supposed to exist, because we are told that such requests have to go through RTG, and can no longer be done by the operator.

I too have received the occasional bite of "inside information" from sources who have asked not to be identified (so I won't). I have then looked at this information, and used it alongside my own observations to see if it "holds water".



Given the level of mistrust, would this not have been a better option to use online. The first option was prone to bugs, where the "eye candy" does not work from the same probability table as the actual result, making the game look rigged from the players' point of view.



This explains ONE of the "new lobby" updates each month, what about the other five

Players are NEVER EVER given a set of "release notes" for these updates, which you WOULD get with any other piece of software. This then leads to suspicions that these additional updates are not something the casino wants to tell us about, such as implementation of RTP changes. The frequency with which this happens DOES fit the idea of RTP being changed regularly to cater for differing coupon promos, even if this is totally wrong.

Thank you Dogboy001 for your answer and I can see where this would be the case for new game releases, as has been stated though, if this is happening more than once a month, what does it mean?

As VWM states here, it tends to lead to suspicion of the software and fair gaming, when some rtg casinos will do this newer version thing on every login.
Recently I played a free chip at a casino, not recommended one, ahem, for the heck of it and it logged me off 3 times for an update before I was able to proceed playing the free chip. Have experienced these "updates" on all rtg's, just some more than others.

I have not experienced this will other types of software such as microgaming or english harbor group.

 

[ksech]

Forgive my ignorance, but I didn't really see an answer to a question that has been plaguing me for a while now...
When I was playing (this happened at both RTG AND MG), the casinos would add new games, which would end up with an updated lobby upgrade. Why, when a casino does one of these upgrade things does it force you to reupload ALL of the games? I'm on a shoddy, very expensive satellite internet connection which has a Fair Access policy. When the casino would do one of these upgrades, it would cause me to exceed my 200mg/day download allowance (which then puts you at a slower rate than dial-up)

I do also know, that sometimes when MG did these silly updates, you would log in and there would be NOTHING there at all...

I'm just curious, and apologize if this has already been covered!

 

[DogBoy001]

This explains ONE of the "new lobby" updates each month, what about the other five

[/B]Thank you Dogboy001 for your answer and I can see where this would be the case for new game releases, as has been stated though, if this is happening more than once a month, what does it mean?

Patches and new game updates to casino lobbies would, on the averages, occur a couple of times a month (games are sometimes switched on at different times, toolbars are being progressively added to some of the older games, menu systems get updated and so on)

The key point to any lobby upgrade is:
It's all occurring on the client side, and what happens on that end has no influence over generation of results for the games.

Since ALL results are generated on the server-side, this makes it moot as to what is happening on the user interface/lobby side.

Woooof

 

[Papa-ya]

Thanks Dogboy001, I can accept and understand your explanation. Guess it's like keeping an engine oiled and maintained, can't just run it till it seizes up.

 

[takethemoney]

Me thinks that RTG software will go down as rogued in the end. There is just too much experience out there, as well as bits and pieces of information that help more of the astute players formulate the opinion that this software has been programmed to provide a less than honest gaming experience. It's not working and soon this platform and all associated with it will become as extinct as the T-Rex.

 

[Deeplay]

Been following this thread which has a stack of info and view points on both sides. 1 way that RTG could cut through the crap would be to have all RTG operators display the % payouts of there slots. And even like wager works who disiplay the % of each indvidual slots which do differ from casino to casino. At least then the player could make an informed choice no matter what the % was set to.

The very fact RTG have not done this when its now well known that RTG casinos can change the settings is cause for concern. Would it not be in the interest of both players and the casinos for them to simply say and display the % payout ?

 

[gloria460]

They're not going to do that bc then people would go from casino to casino to see who has the highest percentage and play there.

I really wish something would happen as I do love the games but the losing streaks and poor wins are horrid.

I believe Maxx said it best. The casinos and the people that play are stuck between a hard place and a rock. They've reduced percentages to increase their profit line and the players have reduced their deposits to not lose their shirts. There has to be a happy medium somewhere or I do believe they will go by the wayside.

 

[De Beuker]

There is one thing that still puzzles me on the Fruit Frenzy issue.

I remember the guy who first saw it about 1.5 years ago said he had never seen that double pear before.
Same goes for me, I played that game alot and its not something you easily overlook, definately not if you're an experienced player.

I also remember looking at the RTG 'secret pages' that the lowest RTP setting displayed was 95%, (95% and 97.5%) so I assumed back then that the double pear indicated a 95% setting.
So the change made to FF was made after the game was first released.

Are there any other games that had the 91% setting added afterwards?
And what about the new games?

 

[vinylweatherman]

There is one thing that still puzzles me on the Fruit Frenzy issue.

I remember the guy who first saw it about 1.5 years ago said he had never seen that double pear before.
Same goes for me, I played that game alot and its not something you easily overlook, definately not if you're an experienced player.

I also remember looking at the RTG 'secret pages' that the lowest RTP setting displayed was 95%, (95% and 97.5%) so I assumed back then that the double pear indicated a 95% setting.
So the change made to FF was made after the game was first released.

Are there any other games that had the 91% setting added afterwards?And what about the new games?

I think they ALL did, unless they had it to start with. There must have been a REASON for this, and this might be that operators asked RTG to add this extra setting to those games initially released with only the two "online" variants. The pages originally produced were not then updated.

The apearance of the "2 pear" variant seems to have coincided with the increased feeling among players that "RTG have tightened up the slots".

Despite a campaign of denials from operators, we now know this to have been TRUE all along, and some operators have moved to the lower 91% setting "for business reasons". It is a change that is hard to prove explicitly, but is one that an experienced player "feels". The design cock-up on the 91% Fruit Frenzy variant is so far the ONLY piece of CONCRETE evidence that the 91% setting has been in use online. There is now no way back for RTG as a brand, we know the 91% setting exists, and is in use. There is no way this particular genie is going back in the bottle, and when players "feel" a casino has tightened up recently, they will assume that is has been a change to the 91% setting that has caused it, unless the casino can PROVE that they are using the 95% setting.

 

[silcnlayc]

I would like to know why all the casinos think that a $0 bonus round is ok? Why even have a bonus round if that is what you will get? There are so many more casinos that are opting for this kind of return to the player...why? Do they think it is a fair offering to a player after playing hundreds of dollars to catch this "coveted" bonus round only to get nothing or maybe a buck or two?

Who thought this up when creating the changes? It really would be interesting to find out why they have reverted to doing this. This, too, was not the norm but has become one and no one will say why they feel it is a fair return.

RTG, Rival and 3Dice are extremely guilty of this. Just my personal view and experience.

.

 

[Nifty29]

I would like to know why all the casinos think that a $0 bonus round is ok? Why even have a bonus round if that is what you will get? There are so many more casinos that are opting for this kind of return to the player...why? Do they think it is a fair offering to a player after playing hundreds of dollars to catch this "coveted" bonus round only to get nothing or maybe a buck or two?

Who thought this up when creating the changes? It really would be interesting to find out why they have reverted to doing this. This, too, was not the norm but has become one and no one will say why they feel it is a fair return.

RTG, Rival and 3Dice are extremely guilty of this. Just my personal view and experience.

.

Unfortunately it's one of those variance things.

If you want to be able to hit the 500+xbet bonus rounds you have to live with the ~0 ones too. You can't have it both ways.

The only way to avoid them is to have some kind of minimum win from the bonus round - but that would mean probably either less regular game wins or much lower maximum wins. When I talk about minimum wins I mean 30x+ as 10x isn't much better than 0 anyway.

It sucks but that's how it is.

 

[gambler777]

Caught AGAIN Tut Tut.......

Maybe detailed analysis of the reelstrips will blow RTG's cover on this.

BoDog may have the slots in their original 2007 reel strip configurations, and these can be taken as "before", and the same slots checked at casinos where players feel the payouts have been reduced to see if there is supporting evidence for this in altered reelstrips.

It would also be worth taking a "now" snapshot at some RTG casinos, and then some time later check again to see if any changes have been made.

Both iNetBet and Club World have stated that they have NOT messed with the RTP settings, and have always taken the games as delivered by RTG, which is the middle setting of around 95%.

Can we trust them enough to use their casinos as a "control" by assuming the reelstrips there represent the mid setting of around 95%.

I know this will cause some controversy, however, I have only been playing at Inetbet and CWC this year, and I have had more cashouts than I have ever had in the 5 years I have been playing online. Yes, I have noticed that my deposits more often seem to disappear without hitting anything, but when I get a streak, I seem to be able to cashout. And I very seldom cashout for anything less than 500.00. So I have been happier with them than most years. Still haven't hit a random jackpot but still have hopes. lol I am no expert on slot machines, I can only give you the result of my experiences. Have a great day.