RTG Casinos

[emily_hanson]

I am sorry Cipher but I do not see your last response has anything to do with the point in question; furthermore your attempt at sarcasm is somewhat misplaced if not wholly inappropriate when we are genuinely endeavoring to respond to a serious allegation.

I am not questioning whether your 'cipher' can log accurately a passage of play, I am quite sure it can, as for that matter can any other inexpensive piece of software that is readily available on the open market.

What I am questioning however is statements such as:

I seriously hesitate to provide any information that would in any way identify this particular casino as I would not want people running there and getting clobbered in a real play mode. It should suffice to say that this strand is as wild as they come while at the same time being totally unbelievable. Have a good one.

Then followed by your attachment of 'cipher' stating with 99% certainty that the distribution is not random, which I presume implies there is something untoward with the randomness of the game.

All statements made with such certainty and finality and all from 30 odd hands.

I hesitate to think that there may be an underlying hidden agenda here, however when I read the above statement regarding iNetBet made on the same day as you state that you see nothing untoward at Phoenician it raises alarm bells.

However that is as it may be, you are nevertheless correct, you will see no impropriety at Phoenician and you will also see none at iNetBet, we both use the same software, as do 50 odd other RTG powered Casinos.

As to player logs, I know of no such cases other than of course the infamous case of The Pirate the reasons for this you may know more about than I.

I cannot speak for the management of any other Casino, I can only state that ANY play from ANY session or indeed ALL sessions from ALL play is always readily made available on request and is supplied within hours of a request being received by our support.

My apologies to all the other posters and readers here it was not my intention to monopolize this thread or turn it into the iNetBet show, I simply want all the readers to know clearly and concisely our position in regard to any implications of unfairness, I want no ambiguity to exist.

I repeat, without some degree of trust in this online world of hyperspace gambling we have nothing, it is all too easy to erode away the good work that many are endeavoring to achieve by voicing with such finality facts that are totally unsubstantiated.

Thank you once again to The Meister for allowing us to respond.

Regards
Emily

 

[dickens1298]

Thank you, Ms. Hanson, for taking the time to read and respond to the original post.

The adage that "perception is reality" is true more often than not. The fact is that a poster had noted that he had an extremely poor session once the software was upgraded; others then chimed in and offered similarly poor results.

In my (relatively) short time here at Casinomeister, I have noticed that the posters here are incredibly fair and equitable - they have no problem in supporting a casino if an attack on the casino was unwarranted and/or unjustified. Given that, the absence of support for the new RTG software is deafening in its ramifications.

You dislike the talk of a "boycott" or the "99% certainty" claim that a game is "rigged" based on a small sample? Your defense is no less anecdotal and flawed, relying upon your casino's six years of experience and your own reputation to vouchsafe a product. You attempt to poke holes in the argument, rather than provide quantitative evidence. But do you expect players to be willing to commit funds simply based on your words - especially given the current prevalent opinion (regardless of how wrong or right it is)?

This, by the way, demonstrates the need for third-party regulation, Ms. Hanson.

 

[Freudian]

I have a hand history of 1715 (splits count as two hands) hands from my last try at a RTG casino.

Out of the 5$ hands:

Hands lost: 870 (51%)
Push: 128 (7%)
Player wins: 719 (42%)

Result -740$ (bets of 5$ and 10$, avg bet 7.45$, so about 100 units down).

In all fairness I ran pretty good before all the weird stuff started happening (lots of 4 or 5 cards 20s or 21s when the dealer needed it etc).

I am not saying I am 100% certain the software is rigged. But I know this for sure. I feel I am so unlucky at RTG casinos that I will not set my (virtual) foot in one until I am 100% certain the game is fair. And I am far from it.

 

[dickens1298]

I have a hand history of 1715 (splits count as two hands) hands from my last try at a RTG casino.

Out of the 5$ hands:

Hands lost: 870 (51%)
Push: 128 (7%)
Player wins: 719 (42%)

Result -740$ (bets of 5$ and 10$, avg bet 7.45$, so about 100 units down).

In all fairness I ran pretty good before all the weird stuff started happening (lots of 4 or 5 cards 20s or 21s when the dealer needed it etc).

I am not saying I am 100% certain the software is rigged. But I know this for sure. I feel I am so unlucky at RTG casinos that I will not set my (virtual) foot in one until I am 100% certain the game is fair. And I am far from it.

Is it safe to assume that you're playing perfect basic strategy - or do you modify it?

And at what point did you start seeing the "weird stuff"? Was it in the middle of a win streak...or did it prolong a losing streak... or did it occur when you increased your wagers?

 

[Freudian]

Is it safe to assume that you're playing perfect basic strategy - or do you modify it?

And at what point did you start seeing the "weird stuff"? Was it in the middle of a win streak...or did it prolong a losing streak... or did it occur when you increased your wagers?

Pretty much basic strategy. The odd standing on 5 card 16 vs dealer 7. But nothing that would alter the advantage in any significant way.

It started when it looked like I was about to clear the bonus while being up quite a bit. Last 500 hands were brutal. Down 430$.

Anyway, bad sessions happen. And by avoiding RTG casinos in the future I think I will reduce the chance of that happening to me more often than chance would cause. I would expect RTG casinos disagree with me of course.

 

[cipher]

Then followed by your attachment of 'cipher' stating with 99% certainty that the distribution is not random, which I presume implies there is something untoward with the randomness of the game.

All statements made with such certainty and finality and all from 30 odd hands.

Regards
Emily

You can presume whatever you like Emily, but the fact is simply this, there was no mention whatsoever from me about the 99% factor for the plain and simple reason that the sample in this case was too small.

For some reason you've come in here and some how taken great personal offense at the data I've offered. Though I don't know much about you other than the occassional email back and forth this just does not seem to be the typical manner in which you carry yourself.

I will close by saying this. I did not intend to convey any offense to you or I-Net-Bet for that matter.

 

[GrandMaster]

These are the attachments for I Net Bet

The sample size is too small for the chi squared test to be valid. You need the expected frequency to be at least 5 in each group, which would mean 65 hands, but even that is marginal. You would really want the expected frequency to be at least 10 in each group.

The correct interpretation of the chi squared test is not that the data is not random with 99% probability, but that if you take random samples from a population with a given distribution, the probability that the distribution of a sample deviates from the expected distribution by that much or more is less than 1%.

The biggest term in the chi squared value comes from the dealer having too many 6's as up card. This would be a very odd way of rigging the game.

 

[pokeraddict]

Well...............

I just had my 11th losing RTG blackjack session in a row.

I am usually 1 for 3 when I play online. I feel that the RTG I played has the best service ever but the software has left me feeling that I did not get a fair game for 5+ times.


By fair I mean the disgusting amount of dealer suckouts into 4-5 card hands and the fact I have hardly even gotten above my buyin. In my last sessino though I played 2 hands and got a blackjack on 2 hands at once, I guess there is some promise there as to fairness.

I have no stats to back my "feeling" up but I do know that no matter what if you play somewhere that has left you doubting the fairness of a game the last 5+ sessions either something is up or your luck is so bad you need to move on.

I will never play at another RTG again unless they overhaul the software and somehow prove it has become legit again.

I have had 2 very large wins in the last 3 months on RTG and many other times I got up and blew it, I have not had a large win or a big win I blew in WAY TOO LONG!

 

[cipher]

I've attached the Cipher strand data on a session of play from this morning at the Phoenician casino and though you've got to watch out for all the A's-2's-3's-4's and 5's money can be made.

 

[m249a]

I agree with pokeraddict on this one, (btw very intersting web site about Papa johns...cold day in hell before I buy another pizza from them)...Look, as a rule most gamblers are superstious (spelling??) by nature. Just look at the granny's dropping their social security checks @ the slot machines on any given day of the week. They have their little trolls, rabbits feet, lucky charms ect...go to a bingo parlor and you will see even more crap spread out on the tables with little prayers ect...My point is most of us, me included, will play basic strategies, maybe with slight varaitions based upon "gut feelings". The feeling I have recently with RTG's new/upgraded software is very bad. I did not track my play with any scientific accuracy, but my kneejerk reaction is something is very wrong here. I have seen some amazing pulls by dealers in the past, but the sheer number of 5-6 card wins by the RTG dealers lately is outlandish. So my "gut" say's get going before I get sucked in even farther. I will admit I am guilty of trying to chase down losses with good money. Doubling a bet after the dealer pulls a 21 mostly. Its a zone you get into when gambling, the whole I just know the big score is comming, I can hit it if I play hard. That of course is the allure of gambling to me, the emotional highs and lows is something I live for and man is it great when you hit the big one. I just don't see the real possibilty of hitting the good run with the upgraded software. Mathmatical probibilty (spelling) or not.

 

[cipher]

Cipher strand for free play session at I-Net-Bet on 6-29-04.

Exceptional win/loss ratio showing net profit of $357.50 in 58 hands.

Clumping wins for House and Player are nearly identical

 

[pooter1]

I have requested logs of my playing at an RTG casino. It was in play mode and not sure if they will have them from playmode.

I played probably a couple thousand hands and should be a good set to get stats off. If I receive them I will see if someone wants to look them over since I have no clue on how to tell if they are cheating or not.

From today, the play session went very well to a point. I went from 100,000 up to I think 120,000 and then it fell apart quick. I lost almost 50,000 dollars down to around 74,000 in very short order.

Same thing happened yesterdays session too. For the longest time I stayed even or above then things went south in a hurry. I dont know if I got tired and started making the wrong bets or what but seems odd that it happened 2 days in a row.

I had basic stratejy on screen beside me and stuck to it as best i could most times. (a few wrong button pushes here and there though )

Like I said I will see if anyone wants the logs when/if they send them to me and you can judge yourselfs.

 

[Black21Jack]

I wouldl ike to see if you get your logs from play mode because I just played and had the worst play I have ever had. I did not keep track formaly, thats why I want to get logs but it was unbelievable. I did not win one single hand on double on 10 with dealer 2 - 9. Everytime I got 20 total on double 10 the dealer would total 21. This happened atleast 8 times that I counted. When I would get 19, dealer would get 20, 18 me deler 19, 17 me dealer 18 and so on. This was the worst session I have had.

 

[cipher]

I wouldl ike to see if you get your logs from play mode because I just played and had the worst play I have ever had. I did not keep track formaly, thats why I want to get logs but it was unbelievable. I did not win one single hand on double on 10 with dealer 2 - 9. Everytime I got 20 total on double 10 the dealer would total 21. This happened atleast 8 times that I counted. When I would get 19, dealer would get 20, 18 me deler 19, 17 me dealer 18 and so on. This was the worst session I have had.

Which casino were you playing at? I don't know for sure but I don't think RTG will forward player logs from FREE PLAY mode.

 

[Black21Jack]

Which casino were you playing at? I don't know for sure but I don't think RTG will forward player logs from FREE PLAY mode.

This was at Leopard Rock. They probably don't have logs for fun mode but I would love to get them for the session I had, I want all of you to see how strange it was and get your opinions. Is there some kind of software available on the net that can record BJ gameplay? I urge everyone to download Leopard Rock and try it in free mode and give me your opinions. Maybe it was just a bad run but it was crazy. I am not bad mouthing Leopard Rock, but I will post my experience, and Leopard Rock has been the oddest gameplay of all the RTG's that I have been trying lately since the software change. Again I must note that this is my opinion and I am in no way saying stay away from Leopard Rock, or that there is any solid proof the software is unfair.

 

[pooter1]

I got the logs back no problem. I dont wanna say who the casino was though.

like I said before I did real well untill a certain point then started losing like crazy. I had quite a few 8 or 9 losses in a row. If anyone wants to try and figure it out I can send them a portion of the log after I clear out my user name and casino name.

 

[cipher]

This was at Leopard Rock. They probably don't have logs for fun mode but I would love to get them for the session I had, I want all of you to see how strange it was and get your opinions. Is there some kind of software available on the net that can record BJ gameplay? I urge everyone to download Leopard Rock and try it in free mode and give me your opinions. Maybe it was just a bad run but it was crazy. I am not bad mouthing Leopard Rock, but I will post my experience, and Leopard Rock has been the oddest gameplay of all the RTG's that I have been trying lately since the software change. Again I must note that this is my opinion and I am in no way saying stay away from Leopard Rock, or that there is any solid proof the software is unfair.

Cipher strand from 90 hand Leopard Rock session as of 11:30 AM (pst)

 

[Black21Jack]

I have had enough of this. I have done enough playing and testing to know 100% that I no longer like the RTG software and I am posting this to get the message to all RTG casinos. I will not be putting a dime into any RTG casino. This is such a shame because they were my favorites and I always truted them. This may be the end of my online gaming days as I do not like any other softwares. The hands being dealt over the last month since the RTG software changes are just unreal. I am not stupid, and I can clearly see the difference. That is why I kept playing and testing. Its not a coincidence that I started this thread after the software changes, and before the changes I always praised RTG. Bad runs do happen but this is consistently every day for me. This is my concern, my opinion and I am not trying to influence anyone to boycott or stop playing at RTG. Players will see in time. I am through with RTG.

 

[RTG_MMcMain]

RealTime Gaming's Blackjack Statement

The only change we made to the latest release is when playing more than one hand at a time. As you may know our software, like all others, shuffle the shoe after each hand is completed. When playing two hands at a time you get two hands before a reshuffle (meaning you can potentially get farther into the shoe). This has the potential to give the player a slight advantage on really long draws but we felt that was statistically neglible and still allowed the casino an adequate house edge.

Therefore, RealTime Gaming has not changed the odds, the deck or the way the cards are dealt for Blackjack in any way. I haven't looked at the statistical samples posted here. Seeing comments on them, however, indicate to me that the sample set is way too low. Someone mentioned 1000 hands but that is not nearly enought to draw a conclusion. You would need a sample set in the millions to see if your "string of bad luck" is statistically sound.

I am currently out of the country but when I return I will do an internal review of a large statistical sample set from BJ across multiple licensees and post those findings here. That will likely not change anyone's mind since gamblers by their very nature tend to be superstitious. Still we will make an effort to show all of you that the game plays as it has for years.


I will be back in the office on July 5th.

 

[cipher]

Good to see you back on the boards Michael. I'm looking forward to your comments. Have a safe trip.

 

[spinslot]

It's amazing to see the screenshot of Cipher. I have been dreamed about this kind of software. Is it available for sale?
The win/loss clumps is just like "Level II". Charting (MA,RSI etc) would help also. What a pity I know nothing about programming.

Hi Pooter; Thanks for your interest. Myself and another individual co-wrote the Cipher program some six years ago now and I've used it ever sense. We are currently re-writing Cipher in .net and I'll let you know when its finished.
Have a good one.

 

[pooter1]

Ok, here is 2700 hands of play money, flat betting 500 dollars per hand (fake money so why not?

Maybe one of you guys can critique it and let me know. There are a huge amount of losing streaks towards the end.

I changed everything I could so as not to show the casino, even the hand numbers.

 

[cipher]

Ok, here is 2700 hands of play money, flat betting 500 dollars per hand (fake money so why not?

Maybe one of you guys can critique it and let me know. There are a huge amount of losing streaks towards the end.

I changed everything I could so as not to show the casino, even the hand numbers.

Hi Pooter; What program did you use to compile this information. I'm not able to open it.

 

[pooter1]

It is microsoft excel. 9.0.270

 

[ueber_alles]

I really don't understand this thread. I see no difference between rtg now and before. Of course, I've always noticed that the dealer gets a lot of 20 and 21's(especially 4-7 card variety). I will never play rtg blackjack...which means I won't play in an rtg casino. They have and always have had the worst blackjack.