Rogue casino using well established software providers -- Any chance of rigged games?

[WolframBeta]

If a rogue casino is using a well established software (Such as RTG), can I assume the game is fair? Can I assume the slots will have same RTP as the same slots of other casinos who use this software provider?

Today I encountered a rogue casino, Captain Jack of Ace Revenue group. They offered me a free chip so I figured why the hell not, otherwise normally I don't bother with rogues. The WR isn't too outrageous and includes blackjack and video poker, so I decided to take a look at their video poker pay tables.

What a bunch of shit. Even Jacks or better single hand is 8/5 and usually from my experience if a casino has even semi decent video poker payouts, it would have 9/6 jacks or better.

But yet, far from the other video poker payouts. Their joker poker 100 hands is 100.1% return!! This sets up a huge red flag for me. Abnormally high RTP game from a rogue casino. Trap?!?!?!

I couldn't believe it when I saw it. I triple checked to make sure absolutely nothing was fishy about the pay table. I uploaded a screenshot so you guys can all see for yourselves as well.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

So here's the dilemma then. If the game is fair then this return table is indeed 100.1%. If they rigged the game then good luck...

So the question comes down to. Does RTG give them any power to rig the game at all? Or should I believe as long as they are provided by RTG everything is fair? If so, then I must also assume this casino is rogued for purely reasons other than crooked software and cheating?

 

[Dinahnana]

If a rogue casino is using a well established software (Such as RTG), can I assume the game is fair? Can I assume the slots will have same RTP as the same slots of other casinos who use this software provider?

Today I encountered a rogue casino, Captain Jack of Ace Revenue group. They offered me a free chip so I figured why the hell not, otherwise normally I don't bother with rogues. The WR isn't too outrageous and includes blackjack and video poker, so I decided to take a look at their video poker pay tables.

What a bunch of shit. Even Jacks or better single hand is 8/5 and usually from my experience if a casino has even semi decent video poker payouts, it would have 9/6 jacks or better.

But yet, far from the other video poker payouts. Their joker poker 100 hands is 100.1% return!!

I couldn't believe it when I saw it. I triple checked to make sure absolutely nothing was fishy about the pay table. I uploaded a screenshot so you guys can all see for yourselves as well.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

So here's the dilemma then. If the game is fair then this return table is indeed 100.1%. If they rigged the game then good luck...

So the question comes down to. Does RTG give them any power to rig the game at all? Or should I believe as long as they are provided by RTG everything is fair? If so, then I must also assume this casino is rogued for purely reasons other than crooked software and cheating?

The answer to your question RTG software is not rigged and cannot be manipulated by the casino operator.
Ace Revenue is currently on probation https://www.casinomeister.com/on-probation-casinos/ They were rogued in the past for slow pay/no pay issues and bad casino practices but not rigged software.

 

[spoton]

I posted a bit here i found on wikipedia about some video poker in vegas having a RTP on over 100%. The contributing factor is ofcourse the big sum paid on Royal Flush with 5 coins. The thing that comes into play is the variance, and that noone has the unlimited ammount of cash that is needed to chase the royal flush with 5 coins forever. So it doesen't have to mean that the casino is rogue just cause of that.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I posted a bit here i found on wikipedia about some video poker in vegas having a RTP on over 100%. The contributing factor is ofcourse the big sum paid on Royal Flush with 5 coins. The thing that comes into play is the variance, and that noone has the unlimited ammount of cash that is needed to chase the royal flush with 5 coins forever. So it doesen't have to mean that the casino is rogue just cause of that.

This was 100 hand, the variance is lower. The real problem is that it's a 100.1 RTP game that seems to be allowed for bonus WR. This may well be a trap if after playing within the terms, the casino voids the winnings because you played an allowed game that they didn't expect you to actually play.

Closer inspection may reveal it isn't 100.1 RTP after all, perhaps because it can re-deal discards (had this before with a different software).

 

[WolframBeta]

Closer inspection may reveal it isn't 100.1 RTP after all, perhaps because it can re-deal discards (had this before with a different software).

So it is rigged?

 

[Simmo!]

I posted a bit here i found on wikipedia about some video poker in vegas having a RTP on over 100%. The contributing factor is ofcourse the big sum paid on Royal Flush with 5 coins. The thing that comes into play is the variance, and that noone has the unlimited ammount of cash that is needed to chase the royal flush with 5 coins forever. So it doesen't have to mean that the casino is rogue just cause of that.

The RTP of iNetBet's Joker Poker (also RTG) used to be over 100% - not sure if it still is. You will generally find that means higher variance though.

I believe RTG used to allow their operators to pick from one of 3 set RTP settings (for their Real Series games at least) but they had to provide written justification if they wanted to change it. Those were 91.5%, 95% or 97.5% going from memory.

Most game platforms will force the RTP on the operator from the server but there are instances where casinos have bought source code and could potentially have modified it. Very unusual but I remember Bodog did this with RTG. Afaik, they were the only ones though and it primarily allowed them to integrate games from other providers, most notably WGS.

The first potential anomaly is Playtech. They run their own casinos and they also develop games in ranges, typically from 88% - 96% so it wouldn't surprise me if you found some casinos had one range and others had another but they don't publish the RTPs so we may never find out. Even then though, you'd expect the RTP to be centrally controlled.

The other potential anomaly is IGT who also own their own casino and also produce their games in ranges (typically 91% - 96%). Where they differ slightly to Playtech is that they publish the RTP range and sometimes the exact RTP itself. These games are also likely to be centrally controlled although they did issue early versions of Cleopatra, WoF, Monopoly and Cluedo that were stand-alone. The stand-alone version of Cleopatra (for example) usually shows the same RTP as the centrally run (RGS) version (95.01%) and if it doesn't, it only shows it as 95.02% LOL.

 

[suzecat]

If a rogue casino is using a well established software (Such as RTG), can I assume the game is fair? Can I assume the slots will have same RTP as the same slots of other casinos who use this software provider?

Today I encountered a rogue casino, Captain Jack of Ace Revenue group. They offered me a free chip so I figured why the hell not, otherwise normally I don't bother with rogues. The WR isn't too outrageous and includes blackjack and video poker, so I decided to take a look at their video poker pay tables.

What a bunch of shit. Even Jacks or better single hand is 8/5 and usually from my experience if a casino has even semi decent video poker payouts, it would have 9/6 jacks or better.

But yet, far from the other video poker payouts. Their joker poker 100 hands is 100.1% return!! This sets up a huge red flag for me. Abnormally high RTP game from a rogue casino. Trap?!?!?!

I couldn't believe it when I saw it. I triple checked to make sure absolutely nothing was fishy about the pay table. I uploaded a screenshot so you guys can all see for yourselves as well.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

So here's the dilemma then. If the game is fair then this return table is indeed 100.1%. If they rigged the game then good luck...

So the question comes down to. Does RTG give them any power to rig the game at all? Or should I believe as long as they are provided by RTG everything is fair? If so, then I must also assume this casino is rogued for purely reasons other than crooked software and cheating?

If memory serves, way back in the day of VIRTUAL DANNY .... CSR/PROMOTIONS MGR. ... the RTP could be changed on the fly, so to speak.

 

[vinylweatherman]

So it is rigged?

Technically speaking, no. It's a valid variation of Video Poker, but one not commonly used. Where used, it can mislead players because they are not expecting this variant because it is hardly ever seen.

It WOULD be considered rigged if the rules gave the impression that discards were not dealt.

I recall this happening at Mansion casino, and it was explained as an unfortunate error. It occurred on one of their multi hand games, where a player spotted some discarded cards being dealt again on the draw.

It would be easy to spot this variant, whether intended or not, simply by playing a sample of hands and logging which cards were discarded, and which reappeared on the draw.

What makes a game set at over 100% TRTP hard to accept is that it means a guaranteed win for the player, even without any bonuses. Because of this, there is bound to be suspicion that the game is somehow rigged so as not to deal at "natural odds". It has often been the case that casinos offering games that look over 100% TRTP have later been found to have been cheating.

The highest non cheating TRTP VP I know of is Microgaming All Aces. It is something like 99.9%, higher even than Classic Blackjack. It was launched without autoplay, and often does not count for WR, and is even banned in some casinos when a bonus is in play. It is also very high variance. I do not "know" that I can trust RTG because unlike MGS, the games are configurable, and many operators rogue.

 

[WolframBeta]

So is RTG not an well established fair game maker then? If like you said operators can just rogue the game as they wish. How would I even know the blackjack I played was fair?

 

[vinylweatherman]

So is RTG not an well established fair game maker then? If like you said operators can just rogue the game as they wish. How would I even know the blackjack I played was fair?

They are not fair in the sense that they can use 3 different RTP settings, and keep this secret from the player. Because of this, a player cannot compare like with like when deciding which RTG casino to play at. With Microgaming, you can compare because you know that no matter what casino has a particular game, it is identical in all respects, so it is possible to compare the casinos in terms of offers and WR.

The other factor is that RTG is registered in Costa Rica, so there is no real oversight into what it gets up to, and we only have their word for it when they claim that a given casino will open with a given RTP setting, and then stick with it.

Before this was known about RTG, there were many players claiming "RTG slots are much tighter than they used to be", but it was all explained away as them only remembering the good times, spells of bad luck, too short a sample, or it's the human brain trying to form patterns in random events.

Now we have another explanation, that RTG casinos dropped the RTP down a setting as times got tough, knowing (they thought) that players would never spot it. Unfortunately, human error on one slot (Fruit Frenzy) made it possible to detect that the RTP had been changed. It later turned out that it was evidence of the use of the 91.5% setting, information that RTG and casinos tried to keep from us as before this, there was some debate about it being an increase to the 97.5% setting.

With all this secrecy and doubt, along with the fact that these options exist, I cannot trust RTG to always play fair in terms of the games presented to players.

RTG casinos have to be compared using criteria other than offers and WR as the RTP cannot be assumed to be a constant between the casinos being compared.

 

[Nifty29]

This was 100 hand, the variance is lower. The real problem is that it's a 100.1 RTP game that seems to be allowed for bonus WR. This may well be a trap if after playing within the terms, the casino voids the winnings because you played an allowed game that they didn't expect you to actually play.

Closer inspection may reveal it isn't 100.1 RTP after all, perhaps because it can re-deal discards (had this before with a different software).

Well the only thing that's 100.1% here is that you're making stuff up again. There is absolutely ZERO evidence that RTG uses discards in the draw. It's absolutely ridiculous and does nothing for your credibility IMO.

Here's a hint why the RTP is so high.....look at the value of the top paying hand.....still I guess that's too hard compared to inventing farcical theories.

FWIW, the poker that you refer to in the old Cryptologic software absolutely DID employ discards...and absolutely DID make this fact abundantly clear in the rules. So it's a terrible example of "rigging" etc, primarily because it was NOT rigged at all.

These days I'm just letting you go on pretty much unchallenged as I've got bigger fish to fry, and spending hours pointing out the inaccuracies and outright fiction in many of your posts is not a constructive use of my time. However, this one required clarification for the benefit of newer members and players.

 

[homerbert]

i can give you lot of russian casinos which have clones of novomatic games, and also netent + playtech

 

[jshort]

Just thought Id make a point that having a game being really high variance shouldnt afford a casino to raise its TRTP anymore than a low variance game. Its true that more players will walk away losers after playing the high variance game, but if the game is 100.1, then the casino is still going to lose money to its player base from it. Afterall a few people are still going to get that Royal Flush!

Whats that you say?.......Youve seen some casinos lower the paytable for their 100-hand video poker; I have too (well I saw it on Bodog). I dont know why they do this and can only imagine its to motivate players to play their lower TRTP games instead.