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Proprietary Software

Discussion in 'Ask the Meister' started by unbelievable, Apr 21, 2003.

  1. unbelievable

    unbelievable Dormant account

    Don't know much of anything about online software these casinos use. Can I assume proprietary means they developed the software themselves and own all rights? Can casinos control their programs on any given day to pay or not pay? For instance, in Vegas, certain machines are "set" to pay. Can online casinos do the same? Also, is there really something called a Random Number Generator? I saw a program on TV a few months back that basically was saying "no". The program was about a person who was arrested because he worked in Vegas on programming and was cheating to win. Thanks.
     
  2. casino_surfer

    casino_surfer Dormant account

    New to forum.

    My questions are similar to 'unbelievable', but I do have other questions as well.

    Where can I read up on these software programs: Microgaming, RTG, Boss & Playtech, etc.?

    Are there others and where would I find this programs?

    I really appreciate if you can help me.

    Thanks in advance.
     
  3. jigga

    jigga Dormant account

    From my little research on the subject it seems that a program can never be truly RANDOM since it is programsed. And the nature of randomness is that there is no program directing its randomness. That's why most proessionals call RNG's, "pseudo-RNG's".

    As to whether casino's program specific games to win, i don't think that is the case. i think they all run off of a central gaming engine (with their RNG), and each particular game uses it accordingly. ALl games however, created to their expected spec...but what the hell do i know.
     
  4. thetest32

    thetest32 Non-Gambler

    As far as I know, you are partly correct with regards to the RNG - basically a computer holds millions of numbers in a list, but that list is so long the results appear random. The computer will cycle through that list as numbers are needed. However, they a pseudo-random because if entry 10,000 on the list is 0.24 and 10,001 is 0.62 this is always the case.

    However, it is possible to create true random numbers by monitoring some atmospheric condition. For example, I know a program that monitors the white noise (background noise) from a computer's sound card. This is then the basis of random number generation in its true form (as the white noise would be considered random). If a casino's server worked on this kind of setup then the results could be considered true random numbers thus resulting in true randomness when drawing a card, rolling a dice etc.

    Finally though, even if a perfect RNG is used, it is still possible to manipulate a game played on a computer because every game simply follows a set of instructions (the code). If the code is programmed to bust you if you bet over $50 on BJ, then that's what will happen.
     
  5. jigga

    jigga Dormant account

    i agree with you on that last point Ben. Since the RNG is told what to do, then it would bust when programmed to bust on a bet over $50, but it would have to do that every single time - and that would be a dead giveaway.
     
  6. thetest32

    thetest32 Non-Gambler

    Jigga,

    Thanks for the message - you are correct that such a setup would be so obvious. However, I was just making the point that it is possible to fix - if it was programmed to bust under much more complex rules then it would be harder to spot. The point is that with a computer you are correct in saying it can always be fixed - a computer simply follows the code it's told to.

    Ben.
     
  7. jpm

    jpm Dormant account

    I've read that many of the online casinos use a geiger-muller tube random number generator. This is basically a radiation detector tube that is monitoring background radiation and using the reading as a seed for the random number generator. Since background radiation is apparently random, then this is probably as close to a random number generator as you're likely to get. Its a similar concept to the one benroles described previously.
     
  8. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

  9. glodge

    glodge Banned User - dodgy back stabber

    Don't want to sound like a wet rag, as benroles pointed out it is still possible to manipulate the outcome of the RNG, yes/no?

    It is my understanding that casino RNG's are run from a seperate server, thus basically spitting out random sequences that are stored on that server, to be called for by the particular game.

    In a crude picture, having them parrallel to the games server, having to spit out a random sequence each time a player rolled a dice, spun a wheel, slot or card; considering the number of players and hands, it wouldn't be able to keep up.

    I read something alone these lines somewhere, not about casino RNG's but RNG's in particular. Something to do with the amount of numbers each version of RNG unit, can spit out per hour.
     
  10. thetest32

    thetest32 Non-Gambler

    Glodge,

    I think the point you are making is that because RNGs spit out numbers at a very fast rate and to many people it makes it hard to fix? If so, the following may help.

    A RNG may well spit out thousands of numbers every second. However, these numbers are useless unless there is some code to interpret what to do with the numbers. Hence the code is the key to how casinos can cheat. Consider the following:

    RNG spits out: 4 6 2 7 3 7 9 3 2 5 7 8 etc.

    The code may read:

    If RNG = 4 then card = 4 clubs
    If RNG = 6 then card = 6 clubs etc.

    So the code links the numbers generated randomly to an outcome in a game.

    However, the code may have a line in it that says something like:

    If RNG = 6 and bet = 50 then bust

    Hence the code says if a specific card is dealt and the bet amount is a specific number then bust the player. This is only a very crude example, but the point is that a RNG may be perfect but a casino is only as honest as the code that interprets what to do with the random numbers generated. A true casino will simply allocate cards / dice rolls etc. to specific numbers. However, a crooked casino may enter code that causes unfair outcomes (i.e. not random) leading to unrandom game outcomes.

    However, a clever coder could come up with a much more hidden cheat. For example, if a certain bit of code made the player bust in BJ if the bet was over $200 and the time was xx.xx.56 (i.e. 56 seconds) it would be much more difficult to spot.

    Hope this helps.

    Ben.
     
  11. jigga

    jigga Dormant account

    Ben,

    That is interesting. So, essentially, it means nothing how good or truly random a RNG actually. Rather the stress of a casino's Randomness evaluation should be in the simplicity of their code as it translates RNG results. Is that correct? So for the game of roulette, the code of a genuinely fair casino would have to divide the total possible outcomes of RNG values and divide it evenly by 37 (assuming single zero) to achieve truly random results for their roulette game. Anything more complex would obviously be tampering with fairness. If that is the case, RNG testing is pointless. That also leaves little to do to approve genuinely fair casinos. Am i on the right track?
     
  12. thetest32

    thetest32 Non-Gambler

    Jigga,

    Yes! You are correct - a RNG can be perfect but a fair casino is only as fair as the interpreting code. So the only way to know if a casino is genuinely fair would be to analyse the code to see how the RNG ouput is translated into casino game outcomes.

    However, good casinos not only allow evaluation of their RNG but also give percentage payouts on games (such as Microgaming). Whilst this is still not perfect, if a percentage payout was way lower than expected questions would be asked.

    But until casinos offer their code 'open-source' (i.e. allow people to read the code line by line) their is no 100% check for fairness than can be employed by us players!!

    Cheers,
    Ben.
     
  13. jigga

    jigga Dormant account

    Ben,

    That's sounds like it won't be happening anytime soon. If all casinos made their code Open SOurce, Everybody and their grandmothers will be launching internet casinos. I don't think that will happen soon. And even if thrid party auditors were established, i am sure it will take a hell of alot of convincing both players and the SW developers that they are competent, fair, and confidential. Is here anyone out there like that?
     
  14. rainman

    rainman Dormant account

    that is what fhte crpto casinos are using. I cannot get over a certain amount no matter how hard i try. I know alomsot to the letter when I am going to lose.
     

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