Play 'n go - Different RTP at different sites!

[Mr Wild]

With Thunderkick, AFAIK, the RTP was lowered for all provicers. At least one casino dropped the game, and Videoslots never gave me any pop-up at any time to tell me it changed.

There was an update though in the news at Videoslots

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

. A popup might have been better will pass on that feedback.

 

[Jasminebed]

There was an update though in the news at Videoslots

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

. A popup might have been better will pass on that feedback.

That specific one was the game provider's choice, not the casino operators as far as I understand. I'm guilty of not reading the news regularly unless there's a promo on. Maybe just a pop-up when you enter a game for the first time after a change?

I admire VS's transparency. I'm not hugely happy about them offering slots at less than 93%, but they've not hidden it. And to be honest, there are not that many that I've noticed.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Play'n GO certainly made some changes, what exactly we'll probably never know all of it.

One change that i do not like and think it is pretty despicable from an RG point of view is that their initial bet setting when opening a game went from $0.10/0.20/0.50 to $1.00/2.00. Why would you need a high bet as starting value? In my view that is the hope or result of some research that players will not pay much attention or are too lazy to change the value etc etc. and spin at higher values increasing their revenue.

 

[Chipkin9]

Play'n GO certainly made some changes, what exactly we'll probably never know all of it.

One change that i do not like and think it is pretty despicable from an RG point of view is that their initial bet setting when opening a game went from $0.10/0.20/0.50 to $1.00/2.00. Why would you need a high bet as starting value? In my view that is the hope or result of some research that players will not pay much attention or are too lazy to change the value etc etc. and spin at higher values increasing their revenue.

To be fair to PnG all Major developers have a high starting incremental value. NetEnt is usually 5 times the minimum bet size, "Micro" Gaming is usually set at 10x the minimum spin value.

At least with Microgaming when you reopen the game at a site you've currently played the game on, the value you last had it at sticks, unlike the previous 2 mentioned.

I think it could be casino based though.

As nearly everywhere I see a Casino with Raging Rhino, the spin value is always at 0.40 by default. However there are 2 or 3 casino's where I have seen Rhino set to £$€2 default.

So who knows whether it is Developer or Casino?

Despicable either way, as you say!

 

[Jasminebed]

Play'n GO certainly made some changes, what exactly we'll probably never know all of it.

One change that i do not like and think it is pretty despicable from an RG point of view is that their initial bet setting when opening a game went from $0.10/0.20/0.50 to $1.00/2.00. Why would you need a high bet as starting value? In my view that is the hope or result of some research that players will not pay much attention or are too lazy to change the value etc etc. and spin at higher values increasing their revenue.

Even worse if you hit max bet expecting to bet 50 cents, when the coin size is now 20 cents instead of a penny. Or 3 cents for me on Book of the Dead, now 20 cents.

Not PlaynGo, but Yddrassil's Vikings Go Wild and Golden Fish Tank had a start up screen that says press anywhere to continue. And if you are not patient enough and hit the spinning spot twice intead of top right say, you have a spin at $2.50 instead of the quarter you wanted to play.

There are also a very large number of slots across multiple providers where your balance and bet size is very tiny, espcially if you are playing on a mobile platform.

Most of the "mistakes" I've made recently have been at VS, where I'm playing without a bonus.

But there's a complaint elsewhere in the forum where a player was using a bonus and winnings were voided on a slot where's not entirely clear just how much you were betting.

Even MG opens a new 30 liner at 8 coins, or $2.40.

You don't need a tin foil hat to see they want us to gamble more.

 

[QueenBee]

I forgot about that casino you talked about now that extreme low RTP, so its 2 danish casinos which both lowered RTP but not to the same RTP that actually very strange.

Yes, I found that too when checking all my casinos last night. We are talking about two Danish casinos now, one with the RTPs around 91, and the other with RTPs around 94. All others have the high setting of around 96.

Play N Go lets all their casino providers choose from 3 different RTP's from their casino porfolio.

Its something like this (numbers are circa!) 89% / 94% / 97%. Then slots are around that number.

Thank you for letting us have that information.

It has been offered to Videoslots, videoslots currently offer the highest RTP to all countries. Most casinos do.

Thank you again. I wish I had known this before. I wonder if you would tell us if this also applies to other providers? Who can we trust?


Thank you all for information and opinions on this matter. I think the whole thing is disgusting, and it should not be legal.
Thoughts like " This slot suddenly plays differently" or "I can never win at this casino" suddenly become very real and no longer call for tin foil hats...

This is really sickening...

Oh, and thank you Harry for the multi-quote lesson

 

[dunover]

OK Petter has cleared this one up for us!

Hi D,
Yes indeed, we’ll be at ice. Please drop by and ask for me and say hi!

So, all our games comes in a default RTP of 96%. As an example, Book of Dead has 96,21%, 7 Sins has 96,28% and Holiday Season has 96,51%.

Depending on which market and jurisdiction the client want to use/launch the game, we’ve added different RTP levels.

So Play’n GO releases the games with 96.xx% by default, then the client can change to another config if they chooses to do so. So each operator act on their own.

Each game and it’s RTP is certified for ALL regulated markets and controlled by NMi as a test house.

BTW, all providers offers different setups for their games and so does Play’n GO to be up to date with all markets and regulations.

Best Regards and see you at ICE,

Well, now we know! Some diligence is due by players here, and I really hope the operator(s) actually change the RTP figure in their casino rather than leaving the developers (higher) default in the rules while offering a lower version! We need eyes up our asses here!

 

[Chipkin9]

OK Petter has cleared this one up for us!

Hi D,
Yes indeed, we’ll be at ice. Please drop by and ask for me and say hi!

So, all our games comes in a default RTP of 96%. As an example, Book of Dead has 96,21%, 7 Sins has 96,28% and Holiday Season has 96,51%.

Depending on which market and jurisdiction the client want to use/launch the game, we’ve added different RTP levels.

So Play’n GO releases the games with 96.xx% by default, then the client can change to another config if they chooses to do so. So each operator act on their own.

Each game and it’s RTP is certified for ALL regulated markets and controlled by NMi as a test house.

BTW, all providers offers different setups for their games and so does Play’n GO to be up to date with all markets and regulations.

Best Regards and see you at ICE,

Well, now we know! Some diligence is due by players here, and I really hope the operator(s) actually change the RTP figure in their casino rather than leaving the developers (higher) default in the rules while offering a lower version! We need eyes up our asses here!

So all our worst fears have been confirmed then, and there was no need for our Tin Foil hats.

All this time we actually have been getting fucked (Sometimes) by Casinos manipulating the RTP and it was all hush hush and "They can't do that, they make enough off the 96% RTP".

As if having an 96% RTP isn't enough for the Casino to make a decent profit, they all also have the choice to lower RTP to increase profits. Greedy scandalous Cunts!

Every single operator will deny having tweaked the RTP too. And there is no way to prove it otherwise. We as players just have to take it up the bum from them and believe what they tell you.

If you're (Not you personally Dunover) not as outraged at this as I am, then you need a kick up the hole.

Sad thing is, not one of us can do a single thing about it.

Best case scenario now is complete RTP transparency from operators and developers alike.

Time to hang up the boots I think!

EDIT: I wonder if the client platform comes with a bonus Enable/Disable option Hmmmmmmmm

 

[goatwack]

Play'n GO certainly made some changes, what exactly we'll probably never know all of it.

One change that i do not like and think it is pretty despicable from an RG point of view is that their initial bet setting when opening a game went from $0.10/0.20/0.50 to $1.00/2.00. Why would you need a high bet as starting value? In my view that is the hope or result of some research that players will not pay much attention or are too lazy to change the value etc etc. and spin at higher values increasing their revenue.

Who knows their motives but I can envisage operators setting the default so high so that 'newer' gamblers view it as the standard betting size, and may not even know that altering bet sizes is a thing.

I think they're attempting to normalize higher bets, filthy bastards

 

[Naok777]

One change that i do not like and think it is pretty despicable from an RG point of view is that their initial bet setting when opening a game went from $0.10/0.20/0.50 to $1.00/2.00. Why would you need a high bet as starting value? In my view that is the hope or result of some research that players will not pay much attention or are too lazy to change the value etc etc. and spin at higher values increasing their revenue.

Most annoying one in that regard is probably Netent, got some freespins? Once they are over the slot reloads and increases the bet from min to whatever

 

[The Dude]

Here is an excerpt from Microgaming's product page:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Business Solutions

"Business Solutions is designed to help our customers become more efficient and profitable. Our powerful platforms give operators control over key aspects of the player experience, including player support, marketing and incentives, business intelligence, and banking and game management. This functionality is available across our entire product range, including Casino, Poker, Bingo, Quickfire and Land-based, allowing operators to manage every step of the player journey."

...

I've spoken with Microgaming about RTP several times in the past - the RTP is set at the development stage and cannot be changed once the game is launched. So the above excerpt doesn't apply to RTP settings - there aren't any.

But for any software provider to place this capability into the hands of operators is short-sighted and is not taking player needs into consideration. It is conducive for claims of conspiracy and back-handedness (take this thread for example). And that's the last thing that the online casino industry needs.

RTPs should be set in stone and published on the game's payout page.

 

[Tropicana50]

The big worry when it comes to different RTP settings is the ability to have a dynamic scale. If a provider has a game available which fails to display the RTP value how would a player ever know if a RTP setting had been automatically switched up or down due to previous play. Giving the client full control over these settings is pretty scary stuff.

Its all about profits. If they can score bigger profits using a dynamic model without breaking the law, they will.

Time for me to take a break from slots for a while. This is the same feeling as finding a fingernail in your steak. I love steak but once I get the feeling its toxic, I will go hungry.

- T

 

[sledge13]

This is an abs scandal, while the Uk Gambling council worry about auto spin buttons, the Casinos are blatantly taking the pi55 and shafting us more than we ever knew...OMFG!

Might explain why i'm £1000+ down on Playboy on .60p spins at 32 Red, 97% rtp, more like 0%!

 

[goatwack]

This is an abs scandal, while the Uk Gambling council worry about auto spin buttons, the Casinos are blatantly taking the pi55 and shafting us more than we ever knew...OMFG!

Might explain why i'm £1000+ down on Playboy on .60p spins at 32 Red, 97% rtp, more like 0%!

We've all tossed away a lot on MG slots, not just Playboy. Although it is particularly hard to beat when it's tight

 

[Chipkin9]

I've spoken with Microgaming about RTP several times in the past - the RTP is set at the development stage and cannot be changed once the game is launched. So the above excerpt doesn't apply to RTP settings - there aren't any.

But for any software provider to place this capability into the hands of operators is short-sighted and is not taking player needs into consideration. It is conducive for claims of conspiracy and back-handedness (take this thread for example). And that's the last thing that the online casino industry needs.

RTPs should be set in stone and published on the game's payout page.

Precisely

In no uncertain terms should RTP manipulation be allowed or tolerated. It should be like you said, set in stone from the very beginning.

I don't think this revelation comes as much of a shock to many of us, but it's the fact that it's been "Classified" and brushed under the rug until now. If the Slot Developers and Casino valued their player base at all there should have been transparency on this issue from the very beginning.

But with profits booming and gullible people dreaming of that big Jackpot (They love advertising their Jackpots, don't they?) why would they...

I feel that the integrity of many many reputable and accredited casinos has been lost due to this.

 

[lotusch]

OK Petter has cleared this one up for us!

Hi D,
Yes indeed, we’ll be at ice. Please drop by and ask for me and say hi!

So, all our games comes in a default RTP of 96%. As an example, Book of Dead has 96,21%, 7 Sins has 96,28% and Holiday Season has 96,51%.

Depending on which market and jurisdiction the client want to use/launch the game, we’ve added different RTP levels.

So Play’n GO releases the games with 96.xx% by default, then the client can change to another config if they chooses to do so. So each operator act on their own.

Each game and it’s RTP is certified for ALL regulated markets and controlled by NMi as a test house.

BTW, all providers offers different setups for their games and so does Play’n GO to be up to date with all markets and regulations.

Best Regards and see you at ICE,

Well, now we know! Some diligence is due by players here, and I really hope the operator(s) actually change the RTP figure in their casino rather than leaving the developers (higher) default in the rules while offering a lower version! We need eyes up our asses here!

This makes me want to check all casino's I play at...And ask them straight forward what RTP% they have on their PnG slots.
If they use the lower version and advertising the normal basic RTP% then it might be wise to stop playing PnG unfortunately.

 

[QueenBee]

OK Petter has cleared this one up for us!

Hi D,
Yes indeed, we’ll be at ice. Please drop by and ask for me and say hi!

So, all our games comes in a default RTP of 96%. As an example, Book of Dead has 96,21%, 7 Sins has 96,28% and Holiday Season has 96,51%.

Depending on which market and jurisdiction the client want to use/launch the game, we’ve added different RTP levels.

So Play’n GO releases the games with 96.xx% by default, then the client can change to another config if they chooses to do so. So each operator act on their own.

Each game and it’s RTP is certified for ALL regulated markets and controlled by NMi as a test house.

BTW, all providers offers different setups for their games and so does Play’n GO to be up to date with all markets and regulations.

Best Regards and see you at ICE,

Well, now we know! Some diligence is due by players here, and I really hope the operator(s) actually change the RTP figure in their casino rather than leaving the developers (higher) default in the rules while offering a lower version! We need eyes up our asses here!

Wow, thank you Dunover, and thank you Petter. At least you are honest...

Well this answers some questions, but opens up a lot more. I seem to have opened up a can of worms here...

I've spoken with Microgaming about RTP several times in the past - the RTP is set at the development stage and cannot be changed once the game is launched. So the above excerpt doesn't apply to RTP settings - there aren't any.

But for any software provider to place this capability into the hands of operators is short-sighted and is not taking player needs into consideration. It is conducive for claims of conspiracy and back-handedness (take this thread for example). And that's the last thing that the online casino industry needs.

RTPs should be set in stone and published on the game's payout page.

Well, I guess I can always play Microgaming then... It would be interesting to hear a statement from Netent... Maybe it is time for accreditation of providers?

Time for me to take a break from slots for a while. This is the same feeling as finding a fingernail in your steak. I love steak but once I get the feeling its toxic, I will go hungry.

- T

Exactly how I feel right now

 

[dunover]

This is no different to a wholesaler providing goods to a shop - as long as the goods are kosher the retailer can make what margin they can get away within the market/competition they serve. Let's get this in perspective, Microgaming DON'T do this perhaps because they are an older developer who primarily provided fixed RTP's via a uniform Viper client at one time. It would seem that PNG aren't the only developer that do this, maybe because of customer demand for a variable product (usually from multi-platform casinos serving customers in many different nations) and serving different markets.

OK, we now know it occurs so this is going to get shop shelves stripped of Bacofoil stocks UNLESS we as players are 100% confident that the casinos where we play these 'adjustable' slots are openly and honestly displaying the actual RTP they are offering - that is VITALLY important because just one incident whereby it is exposed that a casino offered a crap RTP but displayed the developer's default RTP will lead to huge mistrust and loss of integrity to the industry!!

 

[Jasminebed]

Wow, thank you Dunover, and thank you Petter. At least you are honest...

Well this answers some questions, but opens up a lot more. I seem to have opened up a can of worms here...



Well, I guess I can always play Microgaming then... It would be interesting to hear a statement from Netent... Maybe it is time for accreditation of providers?


Exactly how I feel right now

What an excellent idea.

Dunover, would you please ask your contact if when an operator chooses to deploy a setting, are the help files that list the TRTP also deployed automatically?

I'd certainly be more confident if I knew a casino could lease a game at one setting have to contract a different one from the provider, not have control over which one they choose to use on any given day.

 

[goatwack]

It doesn't appear we'll ever truly know what RTP we're being sold as providers aren't being held accountable. They could state 96% but put out 91% to players.

Plus if challenged on the matter, stating my gameplay is only around 90% over prolonged play I'm certain the response will surely be akin to "slots are random and unlucky sequences can occasionally occur. It's just how it goes".

How can I be sure I'm truly getting a fair game?

 

[elrudo]

Well, I guess I can always play Microgaming then... It would be interesting to hear a statement from Netent... Maybe it is time for accreditation of providers?

I would certainly not recommend PlaynGo , still feel ripped off by them because of the CloudQuest bonus issue.

https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...lfunction-playngo-ignores-support-call.75856/

 

[aceking123]

hmmm I would for one look at this to a dire warning to any players online .

im pretty damn sure that the servers can indeed self regulate themselves in terms of rtp% , meaning they adjust themselves to relevant bets which are being placed via day or night does not matter or which player , to many things are stark here , ok lets take micro gaming , clearly there is a different rtp% strip on each bet level this is clear over many many years in fact over 16 years of play , maybe microgaming can explain to why when increased bets are placed there is a small pause before the bet take place , same with reduced line bets again there is a small pause , in my mind its taking you to another reel strip , not stating that it isnt 96% but here's the thing the game plays completely different period & i shan't be the first to state this. roulette mg is not random at all .

All is a guess but look at Harrys results on DOA this clearly sits bang on to this theory , the bets amounts spins all adjusted & going south on higher bets almost like the servers are adjusting to meet requirements.

I also think that all players who have a static ip . player id etc etc , are indeed mapped out on servers it knows your details , if the servers are coming from the same place to which we are lead to believe then the system can track you as a player , hence to sharp play & shitty play , higher stakes getting burnt from machines , low stakes bang you get great play , happens all the time after a few big sessions of big losses .

I ask any casino provider to tell me the details of what is sent over during my play on a secure platform & what is sent back , i don't think for one minute that any casino shall answer it , but im pretty sure its far more than request for a system of numbers & outcome being sent back.

 

[dunover]

What an excellent idea.

Dunover, would you please ask your contact if when an operator chooses to deploy a setting, are the help files that list the TRTP also deployed automatically?

I'd certainly be more confident if I knew a casino could lease a game at one setting have to contract a different one from the provider, not have control over which one they choose to use on any given day.

Will do!

 

[dunover]

OK, not quite what I wanted to hear but he's a decent honest guy and told me as it is!

Hi m8,

Hehe no worries at all.

That’s up to each jurisdiction to decide, not us. We just provide the games and the feature, what the operator then do it’s not in our hands. But of course, they have to apply by each regulators rules.

In UK they have their rules, MGA for Malta have theirs and DGA for DK have theirs as well.

In UK, Malta and DK i’m pretty sure they have to display the RTP, but when running a casino from Curacao, which many are doing, I’m not sure they have to display it. So all major casinos running a Malta license im sure they have to show. As an example, xxxxx.leovegas.com/sv#game/book-of-dead look at the help file and you see.

But that I guess is for you to ask the specific casino operator since we just deliver the game with default values of 96,XX% RTP.

Best Regards,

 

[Jono777]

This thread has confirmed my worst fears.

When I first joined here I shared my "Day 1 on online play" thoughts in that slots payouts could be set (I won't use the word manipulated) a bit like land based AWP and B3 machines.

Some agreed, some didn't, some laughed. some cried....

But pretty much having my thoughts (and worst fears) confirmed has made me think seriously about my whole approach to playing online full stop and I know I won't be on my own on this one.

It explains a hell of a lot why I can get a fair game at certain casinos, others the opposite where I always lose.

I am now going to make the can of worms even larger now in that I also 80% (ish) believe an RTP setting can be place upon a players account in general, (Example it auto applies an extra -5% on any game opened)

This may sound daft, far fetched, paranoid, call it what you wish but It would explain a lot of things, 2 quick examples off the top of my head include: -

* Choosing over 15 different games before busting and ALL of them are dead and featureless (pretty unlikely with so called "random" slots) and even more unlikely that it happens 7+/10.

* Casinos where I/We have been well in front at in months/years/time gone by where all of a sudden each every, and all deposits are "Gone in 60 Seconds!"

Stand by this I will but also admit what these sort of threads do to me

 

[interlog]

Some interesting stuff here.

So now we have to be not only careful at what casino we play, we now have to check each and every Play N Go game for the RTP before pressing the spin button and then hope and pray that the displayed RTP in the help file matches what it is actually set at.

Kudos to Play N Go for letting us know about this.

But it does make you wonder which other providers have this same facility.

And too right about the comments about this UK body that is supposed to oversee the gambling industry and is more worried about the flipping auto play button then it being more obvious to a player what the RTP of a machine is or that it can vary from casino to casino for the same game.

 

[dunover]

Phew! Just finished preparing my study for the fall-out from this thread!

 

[geordiecolin]

This tailoring not only could be game specific and casino specific but probably player specific when it comes to slots. In fact my guess is that only live casino games could provide what it says on the tin

 

[syntynyt]

amazing thread! and a confirmation of my transient thoughts about the shady things happening behind the scene, thoughts that got assured and reassured that are only conspiracies(and like most conspiracies proves to be the reality, that head in the sand type of people didn't even want to think at). except wild north and bit of pimped i hardly played p'n'g for the lack of quickspin and terrible bonuses, but i want to know more about NETENT deep dark secrets, translated slots that work differently than originals, new HTML5 versions vs old ones what was left out, what tools casinos have that should not etc. this is likely going for years, and with all the industry snakes around, we had to find out by chance of the OP. thanks to OP, MrWild and dunover contact. make slots great again

 

[goatwack]

Well as the old saying goes, tell people something long enough and they'll start to believe it.

For years we've been told RTP percentages are set in stone and that the RNG really is random. But just like with any software programme, if I start spanking eg the computer AI on any video game it'll adjust itself accordingly and start getting 'dubious' results, basically cheating to even out the playing field.

Why do players never go on insane winning runs for days on end, out of the hundreds of players here and the millions worldwide? Because the results are compensated and capped

We know RTG software can do this, so why so keen to believe the others won't or can't??

Also the notion that your luck may change when playing the same games at different casinos, that's poppycock for a start. If they're dead at one casino they're stay dead everywhere as many can attest to!

Not to mention the monetary donations at any given casino when resuming game xyz at a later date, I can assure you the games will be cold as ice. Coincidence? Slots don't have a memory my arse!

Casinos may well be absolved from this, I believe the software providers have far greater influence on the individual player's stats than many care to realize

/ Aluminium Foil BacoFoil Everyday Kitchen Foil 20 Metres x 30cm in Cutterbox
by BacoFoil only £7.45 at Amazon! Ordered!

 

[lotusch]

Most casino's I play at have the same help file attached to their slots..

As an example Golden Caravan which I found significantly tighter at some casino's but they all list the same help file and RTP% of 96.19%

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[PatrickNess]

If on each spin of 1€, you win 0.96€ with certainty , you only need one spin to claim that the RTP is 96% with high confidence (in this case, certainty).

If the wins are randomly distributed with the table
0€ with probability p0
0.02€ with probability p1
0.05€ with probabilityp2
...
200€ with probability p187287
etc.... (as the slots are supposed to be)

then you will need roughly in the millions of spins, at same bet and an observed RTP of close to 96% to claim that RTP is 96% with relatively high confidence.

Criticism :
1) This number is never achieved by single players. Never. Your 0.5M or 1M bets at DoA, mathematically speaking, won't do. Nor would your "impressions" based on few hours a day of 2-3 last months.
2) No one proved / showed me the distribution table of any game nor that the game works that way. So basically, all discussion about RTP is pointless and only helps casinos & affiliates.

 

[goatwack]

RTP figures seemingly get drawn out of a hat, because no one in their lifetime will ever see anywhere near the suggested numbers.

They are thrown out as a guide, or more likely because companies are forced to disclose them. Yet the funny part being their supposed accuracy with decimals tagged on for good measure. 95.23%? You sure about that?

Players might as well make up their own numbers because providers know it's an unattainable pipe dream. It's not like a formula worked out with a set of results, it's an ongoing process over millions of spins, indefinitely.

The way slots play in the last couple of years I'd wager the RTP is closer to the high 70s if anything. But of course that's just my 'unlucky' streak and not a true reflection of their payout.

Or is it?

 

[jumboshrimp]

RTP2 where are you?

 

[slot_zombie]

Seems everyone is annoyed about this, but haven't Playtech also always allowed different RTPs, from good to disgusting? Correct me if I'm wrong.

This chicanery is just ridiculous though. I don't personally see the need for casinos to be able to lower the RTP. Most players only have a restricted budget, a slot on 96% will still take their money, just less quicker and give more enjoyment than a slot on 92%.

Play & Go state that all providers do it, so is Rhino on a variable RTP as well then, on top of possessing an obviously (loosely) pseudo-compensated and reflexive gameplay pattern?!? That would account for a LOT!

We are playing an effective RTP somewhere in the mid 80's and not 95-97% on most slots, regardless. The reason is all those impossible hits that most players will never see in their lifetime - the full screen of running wilds on Playboy, 6 diamonds or 18 rhinos, 5 wilds x 7 on Queen Of Riches... etc. etc. They may not be realistically ever attainable, all those dynamite hits, but they're still all "there" in the paytable, and drag down the effective RTP to player something terrible, you can be sure of it.

 

[brianmon]

The TRTP% should be calculable if you have access to the reelstrips.

It's a matter of adding the winning together of every single combination of reel positions. Then divide that number by the cost of achieving every single combination and multiply by 100

That's assuming the reel position is directly determined by the RNG. The TRTP%, would then be fixed at the design stage.


But if they use 'par sheets', where a win amount is generated from a table of possible wins and the reels merely show a combination of symbols corresponding to that win. Then you'd need access to the actual program code and associated data files.

Games which have different TRTP's are more likely to use this method, since they'd only need one set of identical reel strips, and a different par sheets for each TRTP value.
So the games would look identical to the player.
But where one particular random number would generate a win from the highest TRTP par sheet. The exact same random number might generate a zero win from a lower TRTP par sheet

 

[SPOPPLE]

Fuck it, the reality is that no matter what the RTP is, unless its at about 180%...you are most likely going to end all of your sessions with 0. Make a deposit of £100 10 times in 1 day and play at £1 a spin, you can be pretty certain that within 15 minutes 9 times out of 10 and usually more you will have £0 left.

Now of course if they are shaving a few percentiles off the top its illegal and fucked up and should be dealt with but if they do that and tell you, thats fair game I would say.

The issue is of course, RTP cant be truly measured, even with a million spins you could have a 30% RTP or a 200%...the issue is if any casino can, if looking to recoup some money or just make some extra switch the rtp of say every game they have down 3-4% for 2 hours two days a week. No one would really know yet they would see substantial profits.

 

[dunover]

I believe most developers DO use par sheets. It also explains quite a lot.

 

[slot_zombie]

Fuck it, the reality is that no matter what the RTP is, unless its at about 180%...you are most likely going to end all of your sessions with 0. Make a deposit of £100 10 times in 1 day and play at £1 a spin, you can be pretty certain that within 15 minutes 9 times out of 10 and usually more you will have £0 left.

Wasn't always the case though, was it? Thinking back a couple of years... £100 could net you hours of fun some of the time, even on £1 stakes. My last 5 £100 deposits I've low rolled medium variance games with an alleged RTP of no lower than 96%, on around 60p-80p, and bust out within an hour to two hours. It's disgusting the way this "industry" has gone.

 

[brianmon]

If anyone want's a little light bedtime reading. Try this

Old / Expired Link

 

[dunover]

If anyone want's a little light bedtime reading. Try this

Old / Expired Link

That WAS an exciting hour of my life!

I like this bit considering this thread and what I've said:

Ontario approves multiple versions of the same game, with the payback percentage being
the most notable difference between different versions. One slot machine may be running
one version of a game, whereas another identical-looking slot machine, in the same or a
different Ontario gambling facility, may be running a version of the same game with a
different payback percentage. Importantly, this is concealed from the player – the games
look identical and are played in the same way – because three lobsters in a row wins in
both games. The player’s experience varies significantly from game to game because, on
average, the player loses four times more money per spin on an 85% version compared
with a 96.2% version, which means that for a given bankroll, the player can gamble four
times longer on the 96.2% version.

 

[SPOPPLE]

Wasn't always the case though, was it? Thinking back a couple of years... £100 could net you hours of fun some of the time, even on £1 stakes. My last 5 £100 deposits I've low rolled medium variance games with an alleged RTP of no lower than 96%, on around 60p-80p, and bust out within an hour to two hours. It's disgusting the way this "industry" has gone.

Even a 18 months ago I was getting alot more playtime, far more regular features and decent wins. These days I have to deposit a grand to win 500, sure I get lucky sometimes, throw £20 in and turn it into £2-3,000 in an hour but generally all I have is losses and when I finally get a win I keep playing because I want a bit more.

I have calmed down the past week but I have still put about £500 on, the highest I got in a session was maybe up £100 from £2 stakes.

I did turn a £1 bonus into almost £3000 the other week though haha but I blew most of that Honestly now it seems that my best sessions come when I get given 10 free spins and get some luck, when I throw in £500 it seems to vanish very quickly even at £2 a spin. Who the fuck knows what we really are getting paid, my RTP is 0% as far as I am concerned haha.

 

[KasinoKing]

I don't think Play'N'Go can change the RTP of their slots - I've been playing Cloud Quest quite a bit recently and I swear the RTP is 45% everywhere :sob:

... until I played it for the first ever time at Videoslots tonight

 

[SPOPPLE]

... until I played it for the first ever time at Videoslots tonight

Cloudquest isnt so bad, I find that I get the 100x feature quite alot...it just takes it back before you hit it again lol and the basegame is garbage.

 

[lockinlove]

It doesn't appear we'll ever truly know what RTP we're being sold as providers aren't being held accountable. They could state 96% but put out 91% to players.

Plus if challenged on the matter, stating my gameplay is only around 90% over prolonged play I'm certain the response will surely be akin to "slots are random and unlucky sequences can occasionally occur. It's just how it goes".

How can I be sure I'm truly getting a fair game?

Never assume the high end. With humans and their need for money always expect lower.

also want to add this thread is very concerning. The results shocking to say the least.

Also, alot of newbies who were burned at the stake suggesting this only to get flamed by regs should have a mass apology thread made. lol

 

[spintee]

It would be interesting to find out whether this change is coming from the casino or Play n' Go.

Gemix players for example would know that the min bet varies wildly from one casino to the next.
Videoslots have 0.10, Euroslots 0.20, Next Casino 0.50 and I've seen 1 euro min bet but don't remember where.

Makes me think, are Play n' Go willing to tweak a slot when asked to?

That would be DrVegas at min £1 a spin

No bloody wonder why casino are updating terms every log in, There changing the RTP lol, Its a bloody joke

 

[bebo67]

... until I played it for the first ever time at Videoslots tonight

Nice! Myself, I like PlayNGo. When it pays, it pays. That, and Quickspin.

 

[BlaCGaming]

Getting a bit worried now.

I am a regular at CasinoHeroes and upon checking out the help file for Book of Dead I see no sign of RTP

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[interlog]

Getting a bit worried now.

I am a regular at CasinoHeroes and upon checking out the help file for Book of Dead I see no sign of RTP

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

That is very strange because most other casinos do have the RTP shown.

Have you checked with live chat and see what they have to say about it? Or perhaps the rep here if they have one?

 

[BlaCGaming]

That is very strange because most other casinos do have the RTP shown.

Have you checked with live chat and see what they have to say about it? Or perhaps the rep here if they have one?

I´ll be honest, I don´t have faith that their support team will even know what I am talking about, out of the few times I had contact with them, but I´ll see what I can find out.