Casino Complaint Online Casino accusing us of exploitation

[vinylweatherman]

You may be right but what would be gained here other than denting the reputation of William Hill (and what good would that really be as it is pretty poor anyway)?? If it is pure fabrication, then surely a William Hill rep could outright deny that such an email was sent to the OP.

The only things I find strange about the post was that there was mention of "invalid reel combinations" which could surely be proved or disproved outright from game records. Similarly, asking the OP to respond that they will agree not to spend the winnings 2 months after receiving them seems rather odd as for all they know the money could have been spanked already.

It all sounds like bullyboy tactics to me - if they have solid evidence then surely the first point of contact should be an official solicitors letter and some legal means of preventing the OP from using the funds (assuming not already spent). Heavy handed threats that they should not spend it because they are considering legal action because they think the OP has cheated are really out of order.

If all of this is true and I were in the OPs position I would certainly get some legal advice as it must be quite a stressful situation, particularly if the money is already spent. If nothing else it could help clarify the potential ways that things could escalate and may even bring you some peace of mind.

It's a traditional 5 reel video slot, there should be no such thing if the game is fair and random. If there IS such a thing, then it's a "rigged" slot in that the probabilities of the reel stops are not "natural", and some are even blocked by the software from occurring. This could be in breach of the licencing conditions in itself. William Hill have chosen their words poorly given that this is the first shot in what they say will be a legal battle, and that inevitably this initial email will form part of the documents for the judge to consider.

 

[lord flashheart]

Yes we were doing huge bets at some points. It all started with a lucky bonus of £3k we start betting at £1.50 and then went to £3.00 but there were points we were betting £90 and a few at double that. Many thanks for looking at my post though. I halve also won 2K on a slot at a £2 bet and this was the original start of this although that was on another site

Did you play this game in the same way at the other site? Perhaps iovation flagged something here and alerted others.

No its all withdrawn and we had some security checks which passed and were fine. We stopped in beginning of Jan

This contradicts your next quote below.

My other half's account was suspended in January, mine was suspended in February as i was still playing on this and some other slots on there. The winning streak did stop hence why we stopped playing

I personally feel that this is the issue here - you kept playing this game after your other half's account was suspended. William Hill must feel you were using both accounts in order to gain an advantage although their email doesn't make sense if that is the case.

Was the email sent after your other half's account was suspended or your account?

 

[lord flashheart]

Not played this game but....

Just read the rules / game information about this particular slot and from the information given on the willhill site, it does sound very possible from how the OP has stated how they were playing that the game could have been manipulated. Not in the way will hill stated in the email though.

Quite interested to see how this pans out!

 

[Sovietsky]

Thought I would just add something else to this thread.

Its now turning into all the usual stuff about how William Hill cant do this and cant do that. We also have all the expert opinions and advice on what people should do.

That's all good except for one little matter. All we have is the OPs explanation as to what has happened nothing more. Not saying I don't believe the OPs story but at the moment its only one persons word on what happened. But lets face it it would hardly be the first time someone has came on here with a story everyone believed that turned out to be a pack of lies.

Noone can actually know for definite the OP is telling the whole truth and without knowing for definite all this advice is useless. If indeed William Hill had a game that was paying way too much then others would have had the same sort of luck and William Hill WOULD have pulled the game.

If it indeed was just a lucky streak then William Hill would pay it no matter the bet size and are hardly going to be trying to recover money months later because a player was lucky. If anything they would be trying to use the OPs good luck for promotional purposes.

Sorry but I think there must be slightly more to this story or we at least don't have every detail.

I belive that ppl are very awere about that and majority of times it always turns out that the player lied. But innocent until proven guilty I guess.

 

[pmhcfc]

Funny how we all think different

If it were me, most of the money would have been well spent by now and what hadn't would have been put into a different account when WH sent their very first Email about it.

Again, if it were me (so this is just another opinion), and I knew I had done nothing wrong I'd be telling WH to 'bring it on' and good luck with getting your money back cos it'aint happening.

Bluff and Bluster from WH in my opinion - if it did go to court then something like the Sun newspaper would love to get their teeth into the story and would probably pay you well for it (the story) and the bad publicity for WH just wouldn't be worth it - they'd lose thousands of online customers which would equate to losing a lot more than the money they paid out to the OP in the first place.

Go treat yourselves lol, you deserve it. You've got what we all secretly hope for...an amazing lucky streak with a super mega stupid silly super fantastic win...Well done to you both!!!

 

[Jakestar]

If they've already paid you, then that's final. It's like at a brick & mortar casino, once a cashier hands you money, then it's irreversible and final.

 

[angm]

I didn't play that game I played other ones when my oh account was suspended. We have played on another site and not won loads but it does show the same patterns. The patterns they are talking about I guess are sometimes playing on big stakes and playing until early morning but that is no different to other sites. We will be getting legal advice and will fight this as it isn't t right what they are doing

 

[vinylweatherman]

Just read the rules / game information about this particular slot and from the information given on the willhill site, it does sound very possible from how the OP has stated how they were playing that the game could have been manipulated. Not in the way will hill stated in the email though.

Quite interested to see how this pans out!

I am thinking this is another "Dark Knight style emptier". If so, this is advantage play, not fraud. In the Dark Knight case, the rules were also wrong, so the game did NOT "malfunction", it played according to the rules at the time. This game was also fixed "on the fly", no downtime nor publicity. In effect, the casino offered a game that had an element of strategy by which the player could boost their RTP, just like Blackjack. The downside was that the RTP could be boosted to above 100%.

I had a quick play for free on this, and the obvious AP strategy to try would be raising the stake once there was only one banana left.

Once a casino has paid an advantage player, tough - it's too late to change one's mind, and casinos that have tried this in the past have ended up in the rogue pit (Betfair for example).

Many years ago, Prime casino pulled back a payout from a player's Neteller account after two weeks because they had decided the player had "advantage played". They were to regret the move, and gave the money back due to the bad PR.

Advantage play is not illegal, so William Hill will really struggle over this.

 

[lord flashheart]

I didn't play that game I played other ones when my oh account was suspended. We have played on another site and not won loads but it does show the same patterns. The patterns they are talking about I guess are sometimes playing on big stakes and playing until early morning but that is no different to other sites. We will be getting legal advice and will fight this as it isn't t right what they are doing

Are you sure about that????

At the end of last year we won over a period of a couple of months winnings equating to a six figure sum.

I assume this was on the game you mentioned

My other half's account was suspended in January, mine was suspended in February as i was still playing on this and some other slots on there. The winning streak did stop hence why we stopped playing

Here you say that you were still playing it after your OH account was suspended.

You seem to have forgotten things you've previously said, which is making it look like you knew what you were doing.

If you did find a way to exploit a game, then well done! I don't believe that you should pay the money back but I do believe that you knew exactly what you were doing.

It appears that William Hill are acting like a debt recovery agent in possession of a statute barred debt by resorting to strongly worded communication in the hope that you pay the money back, but legally there is probably nothing they can do.

 

[lord flashheart]

I am thinking this is another "Dark Knight style emptier". If so, this is advantage play, not fraud. In the Dark Knight case, the rules were also wrong, so the game did NOT "malfunction", it played according to the rules at the time. This game was also fixed "on the fly", no downtime nor publicity. In effect, the casino offered a game that had an element of strategy by which the player could boost their RTP, just like Blackjack. The downside was that the RTP could be boosted to above 100%.

I had a quick play for free on this, and the obvious AP strategy to try would be raising the stake once there was only one banana left.

Once a casino has paid an advantage player, tough - it's too late to change one's mind, and casinos that have tried this in the past have ended up in the rogue pit (Betfair for example).

Many years ago, Prime casino pulled back a payout from a player's Neteller account after two weeks because they had decided the player had "advantage played". They were to regret the move, and gave the money back due to the bad PR.

Advantage play is not illegal, so William Hill will really struggle over this.

Not saying that it is fraud, but I do think they knew what they were doing. I've also stumbled across empties and manipulation before - mainly land based, but a few online aswell. I know WH won't be able to do anything (well unless games were hacked or something, but don't feel this is the case)

 

[ugaboga]

You can't manipulate a slot machine by pressing the spin button, changing lines or coin. William Hill has no case here. The game in question was never taken down.

Unless they're going to introduce rules that you can't alter bet size, what exactly can they claim the player did to cause the malfunction? There is only so much you can do with an online slot! It's not like he held some device at it to manipulate the rng!

 

[Jakestar]

You can't manipulate a slot machine by pressing the spin button, changing lines or coin. William Hill has no case here. The game in question was never taken down.

Unless they're going to introduce rules that you can't alter bet size, what exactly can they claim the player did to cause the malfunction? There is only so much you can do with an online slot! It's not like he held some device at it to manipulate the rng!

Didn't you know? Alternating screen size/making your laptop run on battery then putting the power cord in and out occasionally/moving your play window around is the sure-fire way to produce big wins! ;P

Jokes aside, exactly as you say. Scare tactics from WH is all I see. Spend your winnings, go ball room dancing, and forget about WH.

 

[lord flashheart]

You can't manipulate a slot machine by pressing the spin button, changing lines or coin. William Hill has no case here. The game in question was never taken down.

Unless they're going to introduce rules that you can't alter bet size, what exactly can they claim the player did to cause the malfunction? There is only so much you can do with an online slot! It's not like he held some device at it to manipulate the rng!

You can if there is something wrong within the programming of the machine. Manipulate may not be the best word to use, but it is entirely possible.

A game doesn't have to be taken down to be fixed as someone has previously stated on this thread

 

[Jakestar]

You can if there is something wrong within the programming of the machine. Manipulate may not be the best word to use, but it is entirely possible.

A game doesn't have to be taken down to be fixed as someone has previously stated on this thread

I can't see how the RNG could be manipulated. The only error/fault that a machine/slot could have was if for eg. you were playing $0.01 per line, you hit 3 kings for a payout of $0.15 and the machine pays you $15,000. That is what the term "machine fault voids all pays" comes from. This appears to not be the case with OP as they have won the money in accordance with their bet size and machine payouts.

 

[ugaboga]

I can't see how the RNG could be manipulated. The only error/fault that a machine/slot could have was if for eg. you were playing $0.01 per line, you hit 3 kings for a payout of $0.15 and the machine pays you $15,000. That is what the term "machine fault voids all pays" comes from. This appears to not be the case with OP as they have won the money in accordance with their bet size and machine payouts.

And they would have picked out on that fault prior to paying him out

 

[Jakestar]

And they would have picked out on that fault prior to paying him out

Exactly

 

[lord flashheart]

I can't see how the RNG could be manipulated. The only error/fault that a machine/slot could have was if for eg. you were playing $0.01 per line, you hit 3 kings for a payout of $0.15 and the machine pays you $15,000. That is what the term "machine fault voids all pays" comes from. This appears to not be the case with OP as they have won the money in accordance with their bet size and machine payouts.

It would have nothing to do with the RNG, it would be the actual program / game itself. I'll explain further in a minute

 

[Jono777]

What a good start to a week, Monday morning ain't so bad after all.

I, along with every other person who has contributed to this thread I imagine are real keen to see how this plays out / final result.

However I can't help noticing its taken a serious lean towards my way of thinking as descibed in my first post on this thread.

Good to see I'm maybe not as island after all

 

[mimi26]

What a good start to a week, Monday morning ain't so bad after all.

I, along with every other person who has contributed to this thread I imagine are real keen to see how this plays out / final result.

However I can't help noticing its taken a serious lean towards my way of thinking as descibed in my first post on this thread.

Good to see I'm maybe not as island after all

what way is that?, I haven't noticed

 

[lord flashheart]

I'm not saying this is definitely what happened, however this is what part of the game rules say on the WH
WH

GARY'S BONUS TIME
After any bought spin, GARY the GORILLA may award a bonus prize of 50,100,150,300 or 100 multiplied by the bet OR entry into Gary the Gorilla's Feature Kingdom
GARY Goes BANANAS
After any bought spin GARY the GORILLA may eat a Banana
When no Bananas remain, GARY will ADVANCE by moving to a new area of the jungle. GARY will ADVANCE 3 times
Each time GARY ADVANCES the frequency of GARY's BONUS TIME is increased:

The important bit here is the last part.

If the frequency increases then there must be something set within the programming allowing this feature to occur within x amount of spins.


Someone also posted in this forum that if you change stake when getting bonuses, then the game will return a result relevant to the average stake played.

Let's say for this scenario that this averaging stake part isn't within the machines programming, it would therefore be possible to raise the stakes once reaching the higher level and gain a high return from the gary's bonus time feature.

Everything with the RNG would be correct and the actual fault wouldn't appear for a while until WH noticed an unusually high RTP.

Tried to keep this as simple as possible and of course this is just a possible theory from the information in this forum / rules of the game

 

[Jono777]

removed - point taken - apolgies

 

[mimi26]

see above

 

[Jono777]

what way is that?, I haven't noticed

I just meant that one or two had maybe had similar thoughts to myself that's all

Apologies If you saw my post as rude, I promise you it was not intended that way at all

Not to blow my own trumpet , but I'm one of the most decent people (or so I'm told) that you will never meet lol !!

 

[Simmo!]

So is the intimation here that we have another game where your chances of winning are improved during game-play and it doesn't stop you increasing your bet when you get closer to that point? Deja Vu

If, as has been suggested, the chances of the bonus increase as you go forward and the bet size can be changed then quite clearly it has been programmed to award less during the bonus round so it's not a "technical fault" as they claim. What it is in fact is deceptive in much the same way as that Blackbeard's Gold slot at Intercasino was.

 

[lord flashheart]

So is the intimation here that we have another game where your chances of winning are improved during game-play and it doesn't stop you increasing your bet when you get closer to that point? Deja Vu

If, as has been suggested, the chances of the bonus increase as you go forward and the bet size can be changed then quite clearly it has been programmed to award less during the bonus round so it's not a "technical fault" as they claim. What it is in fact is deceptive in much the same way as that Blackbeard's Gold slot at Intercasino was.

Seems possible that the machine would have programmed to give a bonus after x amount of spins once you reach the highest level. Could easily be possible that the programmers set this too low in relation to the minimum payout of this bonus and could thus be exploited via changing stake

 

[Simmo!]

Seems possible that the machine would have programmed to give a bonus after x amount of spins once you reach the highest level. Could easily be possible that the programmers set this too low in relation to the minimum payout of this bonus and could thus be exploited via changing stake

Agreed. In which case, the "technical fault" would, technically speaking, be better described as a "fuckup"

Anyway, this is really speculation. Until the full details of their report are revealed we're only guessing and the OP should probably just do nothing.

 

[paul7388]

Agreed. In which case, the "technical fault" would, technically speaking, be better described as a "fuckup"

Anyway, this is really speculation. Until the full details of their report are revealed we're only guessing and the OP should probably just do nothing.

I am hazarding a guess tho that full details will not be made available. I would say that William Hill will either just let it go because they have no case or just Ban the user and right off the losses as its too much hassle to recover, or they don't have enough proof to proceed in which case they will not provide all the relevant info.

Or in worst case scenario they will proceed to recover the money through legal route in which case the info would be in hands of lawyers which would mean the info would not be available to appear on a public forum.

 

[Simmo!]

I am hazarding a guess tho that full details will not be made available. I would say that William Hill will either just let it go because they have no case or just Ban the user and right off the losses as its too much hassle to recover, or they don't have enough proof to proceed in which case they will not provide all the relevant info.

Which would be the best outcome.

It will be interesting to see if the game is taken down at some point.

 

[angm]

I'd just like to point out when I was playing on my account I played a different game as I was on a lower level and did not much

 

[mimi26]

I'd just like to point out when I was playing on my account I played a different game as I was on a lower level and did not much

Have you responded to them at all

 

[angm]

Not yet am seeking lawyer advice first

 

[vinylweatherman]

I am hazarding a guess tho that full details will not be made available. I would say that William Hill will either just let it go because they have no case or just Ban the user and right off the losses as its too much hassle to recover, or they don't have enough proof to proceed in which case they will not provide all the relevant info.

Or in worst case scenario they will proceed to recover the money through legal route in which case the info would be in hands of lawyers which would mean the info would not be available to appear on a public forum.

.....until after the case, when it will become a matter of public record available for anyone who wants to research it. This is also a 6 figure sum, so it would be a fairly major case that is bound to be covered by the media.

Does WH REALLY want the mainstream press writing article after article describing an online "emptier" worth a six figure sum, possibly more, and that this kind of error is no less likely than with our land based fruit machines.

These "emptiers" often involve subtle errors that the fruit machine operators don't notice until the players start hitting the machines so hard that it becomes obvious. This case only came to light once a 6 figure sum had been harvested, and perhaps greed played a part in the early demise of this one. If stakes had been kept relatively low, it's possible that this "emptier" could have run for months, even years, and a 6 figure sum could still have been taken, but more slowly over several sites.

If casinos are using stats to act as alerts, then it would take the "emptying play" to dominate over ordinary play, and this is pretty much how fruit machine emptiers got noticed as machines were constantly running out of coins to pay players, and the repeated technician call outs to the same game for the same fault would have triggered an investigation.

 

[dunover]

I'm not saying this is definitely what happened, however this is what part of the game rules say on the WH
WH

GARY'S BONUS TIME
After any bought spin, GARY the GORILLA may award a bonus prize of 50,100,150,300 or 100 multiplied by the bet OR entry into Gary the Gorilla's Feature Kingdom
GARY Goes BANANAS
After any bought spin GARY the GORILLA may eat a Banana
When no Bananas remain, GARY will ADVANCE by moving to a new area of the jungle. GARY will ADVANCE 3 times
Each time GARY ADVANCES the frequency of GARY's BONUS TIME is increased:

The important bit here is the last part.

If the frequency increases then there must be something set within the programming allowing this feature to occur within x amount of spins.


Someone also posted in this forum that if you change stake when getting bonuses, then the game will return a result relevant to the average stake played.

Let's say for this scenario that this averaging stake part isn't within the machines programming, it would therefore be possible to raise the stakes once reaching the higher level and gain a high return from the gary's bonus time feature.

Everything with the RNG would be correct and the actual fault wouldn't appear for a while until WH noticed an unusually high RTP.

Tried to keep this as simple as possible and of course this is just a possible theory from the information in this forum / rules of the game

This is what I was getting at, I think you may be referring to myself mentioning the TR2 cumulative feature? IF you are correct, and I'll wager that the alleged fault is related to this somehow, then the game provider is liable for WH's losses NOT the player. The OP could have been playing the long game by raising bets after an excessive run of no features, the rationale being the 'law of large numbers' showing an under-occurrence of features.
Then there is the question of who tested the bloody game. As said, it COULD pass the checks for randomness of outcomes but I doubt that an absence of an algorithm to match returns to average stake would be spotted.
I do believe the OP has spotted something amiss and took advantage. Good luck to them. No different from us ex-AWP players doing exactly the same (and fully legal!) to land-based slots.

WHG providing a hooky game, the software provider negligent. Nobody comes out of it smelling of roses. I remember a few years back 7/1 being offered in the US Masters for a hole-in-one which punters cleaned up on - there is an average of 1 every other year but the bookies didn't do their homework and got ass-kicked.

WHG are digging themselves into a hole here. Ignore them.

 

[lord flashheart]

This is what I was getting at, I think you may be referring to myself mentioning the TR2 cumulative feature? IF you are correct, and I'll wager that the alleged fault is related to this somehow, then the game provider is liable for WH's losses NOT the player. The OP could have been playing the long game by raising bets after an excessive run of no features, the rationale being the 'law of large numbers' showing an under-occurrence of features.
Then there is the question of who tested the bloody game. As said, it COULD pass the checks for randomness of outcomes but I doubt that an absence of an algorithm to match returns to average stake would be spotted.
I do believe the OP has spotted something amiss and took advantage. Good luck to them. No different from us ex-AWP players doing exactly the same (and fully legal!) to land-based slots.

WHG providing a hooky game, the software provider negligent. Nobody comes out of it smelling of roses. I remember a few years back 7/1 being offered in the US Masters for a hole-in-one which punters cleaned up on - there is an average of 1 every other year but the bookies didn't do their homework and got ass-kicked.

WHG are digging themselves into a hole here. Ignore them.

Yes, I was referring to your post, I was just being too lazy to go back and find it to quote!

 

[Przecinek]

Interesting thread. Slot games are getting more and more complicated and RNG while random in the long run, can produce results that can be tweaked.
It seems this game could have been exploited without any bonus, just by manipulating stakes.

This is similar to an old problem with DKR slot from MG which was quietly altered after 7-9 days when a botched free spin system was discovered. We are getting more and more investigations into absolutely normal wins. Casinos are starting to get paranoid. BGO removed briefly Immortal Romance a while back. We had many other examples too.

I have to agree that it's the game provider that is truly reponsible for this botch-up. But I'm not really sure if these providers like RabBat or Play'N'go have 6 figure sums ready to hand out left and right if a game they release turns out to be broken lol

WH have handled this very poorly but ultimately they are taking heat for something they're not entirely responsible for. They should seek compensation from the game provider and leave the player alone.

 

[lord flashheart]

Interesting thread. Slot games are getting more and more complicated and RNG while random in the long run, can produce results that can be tweaked.
It seems this game could have been exploited without any bonus, just by manipulating stakes.

This is similar to an old problem with DKR slot from MG which was quietly altered after 7-9 days when a botched free spin system was discovered. We are getting more and more investigations into absolutely normal wins. Casinos are starting to get paranoid. BGO removed briefly Immortal Romance a while back. We had many other examples too.

I have to agree that it's the game provider that is truly reponsible for this botch-up. But I'm not really sure if these providers like RabBat or Play'N'go have 6 figure sums ready to hand out left and right if a game they release turns out to be broken lol

WH have handled this very poorly but ultimately they are taking heat for something they're not entirely responsible for. They should seek compensation from the game provider and leave the player alone.

I remember seeing an interview with a slot machine engineer for a Vegas casino a few years ago, and he stated that computers can't be completely random. Eventually the "randomness" will pattern out, be it over a few thousand or billions of spins.

The engineer is serving life in prison due to knowing inside info on RNGs and giving this information to a friend so they could profit from RNG slots.

Whether he did dodgy programming, I don't know but it's quite interesting if what he said in the interview is true!

 

[vinylweatherman]

I remember seeing an interview with a slot machine engineer for a Vegas casino a few years ago, and he stated that computers can't be completely random. Eventually the "randomness" will pattern out, be it over a few thousand or billions of spins.

The engineer is serving life in prison due to knowing inside info on RNGs and giving this information to a friend so they could profit from RNG slots.

Whether he did dodgy programming, I don't know but it's quite interesting if what he said in the interview is true!

That's a bit ridiculous. ALL casino bosses should be serving life then as they also "profit from RNG slots".

The "inside info" is really just maths and coding, and even without it, someone should be able to guess what type of RNG is being used from a knowledge of maths and computers.

If you can profit from RNG slots by knowing the info, you can also profit by being clever enough to use your observations during play.

There have been many posts here from members who feel they have seen patterns in the online games, and that by observing these patterns and coming up with a system they could beat the game. At first, such claims were laughed off the forum, and those that persisted were awarded a tin-foil hat. Now, an increasing number of "pattern spotters" are having their winnings confiscated, getting barred, or even threatened with legal action.

Maybe it's time for a bulk order of tin-foil hats to be placed, and then given out to all casino bosses and game vendors at ICEi 2016.


This case continues to puzzle me because even if one used low stakes and then switched to higher ones when there was one banana left, the gain would only be temporary as once to top level had been reached and betting was flat at the higher stake, the RTP would fall back as no further stake manipulation would have any effect. It would seem very hard to keep things hot enough for long enough to make a 6 figure profit.

 

[lord flashheart]

That's a bit ridiculous. ALL casino bosses should be serving life then as they also "profit from RNG slots".

The "inside info" is really just maths and coding, and even without it, someone should be able to guess what type of RNG is being used from a knowledge of maths and computers.

If you can profit from RNG slots by knowing the info, you can also profit by being clever enough to use your observations during play.

There have been many posts here from members who feel they have seen patterns in the online games, and that by observing these patterns and coming up with a system they could beat the game. At first, such claims were laughed off the forum, and those that persisted were awarded a tin-foil hat. Now, an increasing number of "pattern spotters" are having their winnings confiscated, getting barred, or even threatened with legal action.

Maybe it's time for a bulk order of tin-foil hats to be placed, and then given out to all casino bosses and game vendors at ICEi 2016.


This case continues to puzzle me because even if one used low stakes and then switched to higher ones when there was one banana left, the gain would only be temporary as once to top level had been reached and betting was flat at the higher stake, the RTP would fall back as no further stake manipulation would have any effect. It would seem very hard to keep things hot enough for long enough to make a 6 figure profit.

Does sound ridiculous although he did mention in the interview that he told his friend or accomplice to watch out for specific reel combinations!

I understand what you mean in the last paragraph, but in the particular way this game is stated to play surely its possible that there was a program error which meant the RTP would not fall back? Where it says the bonus time occurs more frequently - surely this means it must be programmed to happen with a set range of spins, if this was too low in regards to the minimum win amount of the bonus then the RTP wouldn't fall back if changing stake was correctly applied during play. (note - it would probably help if I actually played the game rather than make up a theory based on limited written information, but seemed enough there to add my theory to this thread!)

Anyway, you're right - this case is puzzling but over the given timeframe of play and the slight inconsistencies in the story. I hope the OP comes back after any legal matters have reached their conclusion to give the full story (such as admitting they found a flaw!)

 

[Finn]

The engineer is serving life in prison due to knowing inside info on RNGs and giving this information to a friend so they could profit from RNG slots.

I kinda doubt that.

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Dennis Nikrasch (September 12, 1941 – 2010) was a Vegas slot cheater and a former locksmith who was responsible for spearheading the biggest casino theft in Las Vegas history, by grabbing $16,000,000 from rigging slot machines over a 22-year period. His career began in Chicago, Illinois as a locksmith. He then found out that he could break into any lock he wished, due to his extensive knowledge of the tools, and became associated with members from a key Chicago crime family until his arrest in 1961. When he was released in 1970, he realized that he could make even bigger profits by manipulating slot machines in Las Vegas. From 1976 until 1983, he obtained $10 million from this method. He was then found in 1986 and sentenced to five years in prison. He was released in 1991, but didn't return to Vegas headlines until 1996, when he returned, this time with a new approach in response to the higher levels of security. He actually managed to keep his cheating secret until November 1998, when one of his accomplices revealed information about him cheating machines. He was arrested and sentenced to 7.5 years in prison, being released in 2004.

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Spoiler

Ronald Dale Harris is a computer programmer who worked for the Nevada Gaming Control Board in the early 1990s and was responsible for finding flaws and gaffes in software that runs computerized casino games. Harris took advantage of his expertise, reputation and access to source code in order to illegally modify certain slot machines to pay out large sums of money when a specific sequence and number of coins were inserted. From 1993 to 1995, Harris and an accomplice stole thousands of dollars from Las Vegas casinos, accomplishing one of the most successful and undetected scams in casino history.

Towards the end of his stint, Harris shifted his focus to the probability game Keno, for which he developed a program that would determine which numbers the game's pseudorandom number generator would select beforehand. When Harris' accomplice, Reid Errol McNeal, attempted to redeem a high value winning keno ticket at Bally's Atlantic City Casino Hotel in Atlantic City, New Jersey, casino executives became suspicious of him and notified New Jersey gaming investigators. The investigation led authorities to Harris and after a trial was sentenced to seven years in prison. He was released from prison after serving 2 years, and currently resides in Las Vegas.

Harris is listed in the Nevada Gaming Control Board's black book and prohibited from entering casinos.

 

[lord flashheart]

I kinda doubt that.

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Spoiler

Dennis Nikrasch (September 12, 1941 – 2010) was a Vegas slot cheater and a former locksmith who was responsible for spearheading the biggest casino theft in Las Vegas history, by grabbing $16,000,000 from rigging slot machines over a 22-year period. His career began in Chicago, Illinois as a locksmith. He then found out that he could break into any lock he wished, due to his extensive knowledge of the tools, and became associated with members from a key Chicago crime family until his arrest in 1961. When he was released in 1970, he realized that he could make even bigger profits by manipulating slot machines in Las Vegas. From 1976 until 1983, he obtained $10 million from this method. He was then found in 1986 and sentenced to five years in prison. He was released in 1991, but didn't return to Vegas headlines until 1996, when he returned, this time with a new approach in response to the higher levels of security. He actually managed to keep his cheating secret until November 1998, when one of his accomplices revealed information about him cheating machines. He was arrested and sentenced to 7.5 years in prison, being released in 2004.

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Spoiler

Ronald Dale Harris is a computer programmer who worked for the Nevada Gaming Control Board in the early 1990s and was responsible for finding flaws and gaffes in software that runs computerized casino games. Harris took advantage of his expertise, reputation and access to source code in order to illegally modify certain slot machines to pay out large sums of money when a specific sequence and number of coins were inserted. From 1993 to 1995, Harris and an accomplice stole thousands of dollars from Las Vegas casinos, accomplishing one of the most successful and undetected scams in casino history.

Towards the end of his stint, Harris shifted his focus to the probability game Keno, for which he developed a program that would determine which numbers the game's pseudorandom number generator would select beforehand. When Harris' accomplice, Reid Errol McNeal, attempted to redeem a high value winning keno ticket at Bally's Atlantic City Casino Hotel in Atlantic City, New Jersey, casino executives became suspicious of him and notified New Jersey gaming investigators. The investigation led authorities to Harris and after a trial was sentenced to seven years in prison. He was released from prison after serving 2 years, and currently resides in Las Vegas.

Harris is listed in the Nevada Gaming Control Board's black book and prohibited from entering casinos.

Sounds like it may be the second one you listed there, the documentary was quite a few years ago so I may have not remembered correctly or perhaps got the sentence mixed with someone else.
I'm pretty sure the documentary said he was given life without parole, but might be mistaken (probably should have stated that first).

Or perhaps the documentary team were typically over dramatic and exaggerated for entertainment purposes (wouldn't be the first time).

Might have to watch it again and see as wikipedia pages with no citations aren't exactly 100% reliable

 

[vinylweatherman]

Sounds like it may be the second one you listed there, the documentary was quite a few years ago so I may have not remembered correctly or perhaps got the sentence mixed with someone else.
I'm pretty sure the documentary said he was given life without parole, but might be mistaken (probably should have stated that first).

Or perhaps the documentary team were typically over dramatic and exaggerated for entertainment purposes (wouldn't be the first time).

Might have to watch it again and see as wikipedia pages with no citations aren't exactly 100% reliable

Those penalties seem more reasonable, especially as this was more than merely observation and inside info, but actual tampering with the games and programming.

 

[dreamguardian1]

This was probably already said somewhere, not sure why it wasnt said on page 1 of 10 page thread after page 6 i stopped reading the bantering back and forth.. But I am not going to say who is wrong or right, but IF you were in the right and done nothing wrong then i would either submit a PAB on here or find a site like this that will help u get your winnings and restore your account. I have seen more than a few complaints about William Hill so that is a huge red flag right there, that said the PAB can only help you not hurt you if you are in the right and it gets a third party involved, thats also if William Hill is not rogue or blacklisted.

 

[lord flashheart]

This was probably already said somewhere, not sure why it wasnt said on page 1 of 10 page thread after page 6 i stopped reading the bantering back and forth.. But I am not going to say who is wrong or right, but IF you were in the right and done nothing wrong then i would either submit a PAB on here or find a site like this that will help u get your winnings and restore your account. I have seen more than a few complaints about William Hill so that is a huge red flag right there, that said the PAB can only help you not hurt you if you are in the right and it gets a third party involved, thats also if William Hill is not rogue or blacklisted.

I don't think a PAB is possible here as the OP already has the money, but William Hill are demanding it back. Even if they did find a flaw and exploit it, they are not in the wrong as it was the programmers / testers fault. As the game was released for customer use, the game was effectively working correctly and as such the payouts would legally be correct - unless of course there is something missing from the story (such as use of software to manipulate payouts etc.... But I don't think that's the case here).

Also I believe they said they are contacting lawyers about this, so I don't think they are allowed to PAB if legal action is being taken.

 

[dreamguardian1]

Good Point, as for them getting the money back, my response to the casino would be MUAHHAHAHAHHAHHHA. And i would just not play there anymore and note even try to deal with them. IF/since they were paid the casino should have found the problem before paying out. IMO Most casino's verify it was a winning spin before people are paid, not after that casino is SoL.

 

[angm]

Just to update
As of yet we have heard nothing. We now have a solicitor acting on our behalf. He has drafted a letter and sent it but we have had no reply to this. Someone from the media has contacted us after seeing the post on here so we may well act on that if it comes to it but so far we have heard nothing. Once we have heard i will of course update you all

Many thanks

 

[angm]

Update

Hi all,

Received correspondence yesterday that we will find out the outcome in 2 weeks time as to what action if any WH will be taking. Will keep you all posted. Reason they have given for the delay is having to find out more info from a third party about the fault

 

[vinylweatherman]

Hi all,

Received correspondence yesterday that we will find out the outcome in 2 weeks time as to what action if any WH will be taking. Will keep you all posted. Reason they have given for the delay is having to find out more info from a third party about the fault

Being able to prove that the fault exists is one thing, but they will also have to demonstrate that the average person playing the game would clearly realise that they were not simply "getting lucky", but knowingly exploiting a fault.

Your lawyer will have to argue that whilst a fault exists, it's impossible for the average person to realise that they are obviously winning because of a fault, rather than being lucky. The court isn't going to be impressed by a "should have realised" argument based on probability mathematics that seek to show that the result was probably not luck, they will want to see an argument that it's plainly obvious to the average person, such as getting paid way too much for every win, so much that the overpayment is obvious, not just slightly over.

You have to remember that players often claim that they are LOSING because the game is rigged or faulty, but casinos tend to dismiss such claims as players not understanding the nature of probability and random outcomes, and that they just had an unusual, but perfectly acceptable, run of bad luck.

It's probably the fact that it's such a large amount that has WH still trying to find a way to get it back.

Don't forget consumer contract law in any defence, this may help even if there IS a fault, and the "should have realised" argument looks like it might get some traction in court. They also "should have realised" before paying out the winnings, and this is where consumer contract law could help:- If the BUSINESS with all it's back end resources failed to realise the game was faulty at the time it was played, they can't expect the ordinary consumer to have noticed.

It seems a big sum to a player, but to big business like WH and the game supplier, it seems too SMALL an amount to be worth making such a big fuss that is bound to ensure that them running a faulty game for a prolonged period ends up being a widely read story, both by potential players AND national gambling regulators. It's a risk they will have to take if they decide to pursue a hostile court action, and even then there is no guarantee that they will be awarded the full amount of the disputed winnings.

 

[dunover]

This will get nearer Mars than any Court.

Don't let them bully or coerce you. It's only WORDS. Call their bluff.

As VWM said, if they've been providing non-random reactive games it's their fault being the end supplier. The software provider is liable IMO if anyone is.

They bully you simply because you're an easy target, whereas the provider of the game would have technical knowledge to contest WHG's arguments.

 

[vinylweatherman]

It's interesting to note that after all this time, WH are STILL having to wait a further 2 weeks to receive more details about this "fault" from a third party. Now, if this was an obvious fault that the average man in the street should have noticed when playing, WH should have had their evidence done & dusted long ago, and should now be in a position to explain in precise detail how this was a player obviously exploiting a fault rather than a player following some gambler's superstition that shouldn't work, but actually DID work due to some subtle game error.

It's like a Roulette system. They should never work over the long term, but some pretty surprising runs of luck can occur, sometimes when a player is following a "Roulette system" they have bought from some dodgy vendor. However, if the wheel is faulty, having a slight bias towards one or two quadrants, certain systems WILL work over the long term, but the wheel bias is not something the average player will be able to ascertain from a few gaming sessions. It actually takes a player to actively look for wheel bias by taking large datasets of results and analysing them with advanced statistical mathematics to identify whether there is a bias, and then if there is, whether it can be used to devise a Roulette system that can shift the TRTP beyond 100%. Of course, casinos are constantly taking down this same data, and should be using it to shut down any biased tables long before players figure out the weakness and take advantage.

We have seen a few cases where casinos have spotted a fault in a game favouring players, and have managed to react in time to prevent winnings from being paid out. It is already pretty clear that player's who have their winnings confiscated have a tough fight to get their money if the casino isn't prepared to offer a fair and independent assessment, and then abide by a finding that says they should pay the player. The difference here is that WH failed to exercise due diligence, and ended up paying up before discovering they could have wriggled out of it. It's also obviously too late for them to "do a Betfair" and just pull the payments back, so all they have left is legal bullying, and it's a field for which there is almost no case history, which makes it hard to assess the likelihood of WH winning such a case.

In order to stand any chance, WH are probably going to have to show that the player didn't merely benefit from the fault, but actively manipulated it for maximum gain.

As the OP has a lawyer, why are WH still sending their bullying communications to the player, rather than their lawyer? This is a ,mere breach of etiquette, but might indicate that this is still WH bullying and bluffing. The OP can stop this by having their lawyer send a formal "send all further communications via me" letter to WH's lawyers, and any communications that WH still try to make direct should all be referred to the lawyer without further comment.

 

[SpinUk]

Agreed with Dunover - There is absolutely NO way this would get to court. Its not like card counting where their is player cheating and taking advantage, this is neglect by William Hill to ensure that their systems are robust, whether you knew or not something was happening.

Can you imagine how bad that looks for the board at WH from a shareholders point of view? The Board of Directors have a duty of care to their shareholders to run the company to the best of their ability, they would much rather take a hit at what is essentially shareholders money than face the embarrassment of them appearing incompetent and not upto their (well paid) positions of overseeing things.

Its also nowhere near a large enough amount of money for a public court case with the exposure that that would produce.