New Rival slot - Shocking RTP, I honestly can't believe it.......

[ChopleyIOM]

A picture speaks a thousand words, this is the help screen for the brand new Rival slot, 'Win Mill'.

I am really quite disgusted that a software company could even think of releasing a slot at this staggeringly low RTP.

For those of us who understand RTP, we'd never play this slot in a million years.

For those who don't understand or don't care, this slot is nothing more than the electronic equivalent of a bear trap.

I don't what I'm most amazed about, the fact that Rival have kicked a slot out of the door at 87% RTP, or the fact that they're being honest about it on the paytable! (And it does get you thinking doesn't it..... What about software companies who DON'T reveal RTP on a slot-by-slot basis, what's to stop them sneaking an 87% RTP slot onto their books?)

To my mind this is nothing more than a straight insult to players Seriously Rival, what on earth were you thinking?

I know Tropica's rep is active here so hopefully he can shed some light on this terrible new release from Rival.

(Incidentally, Rival do already have some low RTP slots on their books, down at 91% and even 89%, but this a new low for them. Absolutely dreadful.)

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[hoff1985]

A picture speaks a thousand words, this is the help screen for the brand new Rival slot, 'Win Mill'.

I am really quite disgusted that a software company could even think of releasing a slot at this staggeringly low RTP.

For those of us who understand RTP, we'd never play this slot in a million years.

For those who don't understand or don't care, this slot is nothing more than the electronic equivalent of a bear trap.

I don't what I'm most amazed about, the fact that Rival have kicked a slot out of the door at 87% RTP, or the fact that they're being honest about it on the paytable! (And it does get you thinking doesn't it..... What about software companies who DON'T reveal RTP on a slot-by-slot basis, what's to stop them sneaking an 87% RTP slot onto their books?)

To my mind this is nothing more than a straight insult to players Seriously Rival, what on earth were you thinking?

I know Tropica's rep is active here so hopefully he can shed some light on this terrible new release from Rival.

(Incidentally, Rival do already have some low RTP slots on their books, down at 91% and even 89%, but this a new low for them. Absolutely dreadful.)

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We'll i would never play that slot too, but i don't think it's fair to bash RIVAL for that.

1. They're OPEN about the RTP and they publish it, a lot of other Developers don't.

2. They're not forcing you to play THIS specific slot. Of course if all the slots would be like this, i would blame the software, but compared to the other big casino applications out there, RIVAL has so many low variance HIGH paying slots with a very fair and balanced gameplay, that i think if they want to have one slot like this, that's fine, i know the numbers and i can still play all the other ones.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

We'll i would never play that slot too, but i don't think it's fair to bash RIVAL for that.

1. They're OPEN about the RTP and they publish it, a lot of other Developers don't.

I agree with you about that, Rival are upfront about the RTP of this slot and they do make the information available to players - for that I am grateful at least, as it made it obvious to me that I need to stay well clear of this slot.

(It also re-affirmed my commitment not to play at any casino that does not make slot-by-slot RTP information available, seriously, there is NOTHING stopping any other provider releasing an 87% RTP slot, and by the time the playing community had reached a reasonable consensus on it to steer clear, they'd have milked a fortune from us.)

Finally, WHY release a slot with such a derisory RTP in the first place? A clued-up player would never touch it in a million years, therefore one can only assume that its intention is to milk the less well educated when it comes to online slots.

Bad behaviour IMO, end of story. Rival have some explaining to do.

2. They're not forcing you to play THIS specific slot. Of course if all the slots would be like this, i would blame the software, but compared to the other big casino applications out there, RIVAL has so many low variance HIGH paying slots with a very fair and balanced gameplay, that i think if they want to have one slot like this, that's fine, i know the numbers and i can still play all the other ones.

It's not just a one-off though hoff, Rival have been steadily reducing the RTP of their slots for quite some time now, there's an interesting list here:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

I was prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt, and I was actually looking forward to getting home from work to play this new slot at Tropica (I got the email about it late last night so decided to wait until today to give it a try), plus with it being a fairly basic 5-line slot I assumed they'd give it a decent RTP as the more basic the slot, the more it needs a healthy RTP.

You can imagine my amazement when I checked the help file and saw its RTP listed as 87%! Needless to say I did not spin a single penny on this slot, in fact I was so offended that I withdrew my entire remaining balance from Tropica and I will not play Rival again until they see fit to start giving their slots an RTP that is not an outright insult to the player.

I am not singling out Rival here, I will be (and have been! ) critical about any software provider and/or casino that does not give the player a decent ride.

I do agree with you that Rival have at least been transparent about the RTP of this new slot, but it still leaves a very sour taste in my mouth that they should have released it at all.

 

[hoff1985]

I agree with you about that, Rival are upfront about the RTP of this slot and they do make the information available to players - for that I am grateful at least, as it made it obvious to me that I need to stay well clear of this slot.

(It also re-affirmed my commitment not to play at any casino that does not make slot-by-slot RTP information available, seriously, there is NOTHING stopping any other provider releasing an 87% RTP slot, and by the time the playing community had reached a reasonable consensus on it to steer clear, they'd have milked a fortune from us.)

Finally, WHY release a slot with such a derisory RTP in the first place? A clued-up player would never touch it in a million years, therefore one can only assume that its intention is to milk the less well educated when it comes to online slots.

Bad behaviour IMO, end of story. Rival have some explaining to do.



It's not just a one-off though hoff, Rival have been steadily reducing the RTP of their slots for quite some time now, there's an interesting list here:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

I was prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt, and I was actually looking forward to getting home from work to play this new slot at Tropica (I got the email about it late last night so decided to wait until today to give it a try), plus with it being a fairly basic 5-line slot I assumed they'd give it a decent RTP as the more basic the slot, the more it needs a healthy RTP.

You can imagine my amazement when I checked the help file and saw its RTP listed as 87%! Needless to say I did not spin a single penny on this slot, in fact I was so offended that I withdrew my entire remaining balance from Tropica and I will not play Rival again until they see fit to start giving their slots an RTP that is not an outright insult to the player.

I am not singling out Rival here, I will (and have been! ) critical about any software provider and/or casino that does not give the player a decent ride.

I do agree with you that Rival have at least been transparent about the RTP of this new slot, but it still leaves a very sour taste in my mouth that they should have released it at all.

I agree with you that it would have been better to just make this slot with a better RTP or not release it at all...

And yeah, they have a lot of Slots set at 96% or even 94%, but i don't know maybe it's the variance... But you have also seen it in my other thread or several other threads, it's still easier to win a couple of hundred bucks with RIVAl than it is with other Software, even if they have a bigger RTP, maybe it's just because RIVAL is more set in a way to give the player always wins but not as many HUGE ones, i dno't know... I just would have a hard time blaming RIVAL for their RTP when it's the only software that gives me long playtime and constantly OK wins (even if not many biggies).

 

[vinylweatherman]

Being honest about bad, even predatory, business practice does not get them off the hook. This information is tucked away in the smallprint, and it quite clearly IS intended to boost profits at the extent of the naive "recreational player" that casinos prefer over the more aware "expert player" who would know that this information is published, where to find it, and what it means.

Clued up players would know that this is a particularly bad slot to choose, but the marketing is designed to keep this negative information from the less well educated player who, over the long term, will be paying 13% instead of the usual 5% average for their online slot entertainment. These players may just think they have been unusually unlucky, and by the time they figure out they have been "had" over the long term, it will be too late.

The casino can claim they have published the information, and so have done nothing deceptive or predatory. They have merely taken advantage of expectations by delivering something that looks like it meets these expectations, yet falls well short.

The evidence is that this is part of a long term trend of releasing new slots with gradually decreasing RTP values. This slow change is not something that will be obvious, and many players who complain that "things are not like they used to be" will get the standard excuses about luck, variance, tin foil hats, conspiracy theories, etc.

I suspect this trend is to allow Rival casinos to start offering even crazier deposit bonuses than they currently do, with players fooled into thinking that "less is more" because of the headline offers blinding them to the effect of dropping RTP slowly from 95% to the mid to high 80's. I also expect the bonus terms to specify play only on these newer slots as being allowed, with players believing this doesn't really make a difference since slots are slots, and all pay around the same over the long term.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I'm still bemused about the thought process behind releasing a slot at 87% RTP.

Do they expect people not to notice? In which case I think you could accuse it of being predatory behaviour, people will generally be used to slots paying 'around 95%', a slot at 87% RTP is going to destroy them in fairly short order unless they get very, very lucky.

Or do they expect people to notice, but not care? This is naive, anyone with any knowledge of RTP wouldn't go near this slot with someone else's bankroll, much less their own.

Or do they just not care what their players think either way, as long as it makes them money?

Well it certainly hasn't worked for me, I've withdrawn my remaining balance from Tropica and I have no intention of depositing again unless Rival get this sorted out.

It's a shame because Rival have got a lot of fantastic slots on their books, but I'm not going to contribute to the coffers of a company that produces an 87% RTP slot. All I can vote with is my wallet, so that's what I'm doing.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Dreadful slot!

Well I've put over 600 spins through this slot in freeplay, so you don't have to.

Here are the stats from 630 spins at £1.50 per spin:

TOTAL LOSS : £130

BONUS ROUND TRIGGERS : 1, paid 26x stake

PICK ME ROUND TRIGGERS : Plenty of these, fixed payout of 24x stake, presented as a 50/50 chance of getting 24x stake or nothing. I lost a few more than I won. (i.e. overall long term payout for this round is just 12x stake.)

BIGGEST REEL WIN : 24x stake

(JACKPOT IS : 333x stake, needless to say I did not get this)

OVERALL : Rival's designers have probably done the best job they could with that RTP of 87%, and their coping strategy appears to have been to make the slot incredibly low variance.

The lowest win on the paytable is a meagre 0.6x stake, which is very small for a 5-line 3-reel slot, the biggest 'normal' win on the paytable is just 18x stake, although this can be increased if other wins appear on the other lines (highest I managed was 24x stake).

From 18x stake is a massive jump up to 333x stake, which is three of the jackpot symbols.

The PICK ME bonus round appears with some regularity, and appears to be fixed at 24x stake IF YOU PICK CORRECTLY. (With a 50% chance of getting 24x stake and a 50% chance of getting nothing, it effectively averages out to a pitiful 12x stake). I only triggered one BONUS round in 620 spins, which paid only 26x stake.

CONCLUSION - A truly dreadful slot, you simply can't get away with an 87% RTP on a basic 5-line 3-reel slot. A more 'involved' video slot might mask such a horribly low RTP for a while, but when the entire slot is just small win after small win, watching a bankroll diminish with some speed, with even a jackpot being an entirely uninspiring 333x stake and incredibly rare, with two low-paying bonus rounds - the player's experience is pretty much guaranteed to be awful.

A stunning misfire from Rival here, I'm shocked.

 

[Refilliates Casinos]

Hi there,

We have mailed our account manager at Rival the link to this post and are waiting for their feedback. A quick look at a 2 day report of this game shows it paying at 95.68% at Tropica, but 2 days is not enough time to gather accurate data for a game.

Will write back here once we have more information.

Regards,
Tropica

 

[lnspin]

Anyone think this might be a typo, maybe they meant 97%?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Anyone think this might be a typo, maybe they meant 97%?

I'm not sure what would be worse, releasing a slot at 87% RTP on purpose, or releasing a slot at 97% RTP and reporting it wrongly on the paytable as 87% because no one bothered to check the help file before making the game live!

Either answer is worrying, in all honesty.

(If it is a 97% RTP slot, then it's a MASSIVE reversal of what Rival have been doing with their slots for quite some time now, in terms of a steady reduction in RTPs.)

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Hi there,

We have mailed our account manager at Rival the link to this post and are waiting for their feedback. A quick look at a 2 day report of this game shows it paying at 95.68% at Tropica, but 2 day's is not enough time to gather accurate data for a game.

Will write back here once we have more information.

Regards,
Tropica

Thanks for that Tropica, would be interested to hear the definitive answer on this one.

Out of interest, does anyone at Tropica take a quick look over a new slot when it gets added to your casino? Personally speaking I'd want to be taking at least a reasonable look at any new game, in case any players had any questions about it and suchlike.

Also of course, to pick up on things like a stated 87% RTP (in which case I'd be in touch with Rival to say '87%, really?'), because if it is 87% RTP then it's not a good advertisement for the brand or your casino, and if it's a 97% RTP slot mis-reported as an 87% RTP slot, that's a pretty major typo that should have been picked up by QA before the slot went live.

 

[Jasminebed]

I remember a long ago thread where (pretty sure) Rival released a slot with a typo in the payout.. something truly dismal like 62%

I've had no luck in sleuthing that one out.

 

[Refilliates Casinos]

Hi,

We checked the technical document for this game and it shows this game to have a 94.2% RTP.

Here is what is showed in the technical document:



Rival have since replied with:

"Those figures are produced automatically by the backend based on the paytable outcomes during simulation runs for the game before going live. Clearly it's not accurate. The marketing materials that is sent out (or found in the b/e) for every game shows the actual RTP of the final paytable used for the production-live version of the game. In this case, the RTP is 94.2%. The help files and the RTP figures are all produced automatically by a script when a game is pushed live. In this case, the script for some reason pulled the wrong simulation results and displayed them in the help file.

Next time all you need to do is check the technical specs file in the marketing materials. Those figures are accurate.

This was a bug in the automated help file creator script that pulled the wrong RTP, and the production RTP for the game is 94.2%. The help file display bug will be corrected shortly."

Apologies for the unnecessary frustration and inconvenience that this has caused.

Regards,
Tropica

 

[ChopleyIOM]

As ever Tropica, I must thank you for your swift response in this matter, and I say again that the 'big boys' of the online casino world could learn a thing or two from your engagement with the community here at CM, so thank you for that.

But, and there is a but....

What the hell is going on with Rival's quality control? It's not like they release new slots that regularly so it'd hardly be a 'daily task', did no one actually CHECK to see what the one line help file of their new slot was displaying to the general public before they pushed it out to live? Did no one think, 'Hey guys, you know what, wouldn't it be a bad idea if our automated help file generators advertised us as having released one of the lowest paying online slots in the entire world?'

My other concern here is I wonder how many other 'automated help file generators' have got the numbers wrong, assuming it's not 'classified information' (and considering that Rival don't exactly have hundreds of slots on their books), is there any chance you or someone else from Tropica could compare what the help files for their slots report as the RTP, and what the technical documents say?

I do appreciate your answers here Tropica, but I hope you can see how in some regards they lead onto more questions.

On one level I am relieved to hear that Rival haven't pushed an 87% RTP slot out of the door (assuming that we are now being given the right numbers), but on another level I do have to wonder about the RTP figures listed for all their slots.....

 

[bpb]

Wow ... 5.8% house edge ... someone give me an address so I can send a fruit basket as a show of gratitude for Rival's generosity.

What do they give, a fat .1% in comps on top of that?

Sweet deal.

 

[bonustreak]

What the hell is going on with Rival's quality control?

LOL been asking myself that for several years now! Thanks for your thread!

 

[KasinoKing]

What the hell is going on with Rival's quality control? It's not like they release new slots that regularly so it'd hardly be a 'daily task', did no one actually CHECK to see what the one line help file of their new slot was displaying to the general public before they pushed it out to live? Did no one think, 'Hey guys, you know what, wouldn't it be a bad idea if our automated help file generators advertised us as having released one of the lowest paying online slots in the entire world?'

I don't want to keep on about it, but as you already know I have been making these comments for several years and even started a couple of threads about it on the forum a few years back. Rival had a long history of making fairly serious errors in the game rules.
I say "had", because a couple of years ago they stopped describing how the slot should work in the rules, and just referred players to the Pay-Table instead. This eliminated the glaring contradictions, at least!

That is very interesting information from Tropica though - and it might well explain why some of Rival's other recent releases have stated RTPs below 95%, when all the previous ones were at, or above this level. Hopefully in the light of this thread Rival will double check them and correct any anomalies.

KK

 

[ChopleyIOM]

That is very interesting information from Tropica though - and it might well explain why some of Rival's other recent releases have stated RTPs below 95%, when all the previous ones were at, or above this level. Hopefully in the light of this thread Rival will double check them and correct any anomalies.

This is what I'm particularly interested in.

If an 'automatic help file generator' (who'd have even imagined such a thing existed.... I'd want my help files written by a human being.....) can get it wrong once, it can get it wrong more than once.

I'd like to see a Rival powered casino refer back to these technical documents on a slot-by-slot basis and see if the T-RTPs stated in the tech docs match up to the T-RTPs stated in the help file.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Hi,

We checked the technical document for this game and it shows this game to have a 94.2% RTP.

Here is what is showed in the technical document:

I do note that the help file for Win Mill has been changed, it now says that the 'expected payback for this game of chance is about 95'.

Since when did 94.2% round to 95%?

The expected payback is not 'around 95%', it's 'around 94%' - seriously guys, how many tries do you need at this?

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[vinylweatherman]

I do note that the help file for Win Mill has been changed, it now says that the 'expected payback for this game of chance is about 95'.

Since when did 94.2% round to 95%?

The expected payback is not 'around 95%', it's 'around 94%' - seriously guys, how many tries do you need at this?

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More misleading spin. By "about 95", one would believe 95 to be the closest whole number to the exact figure. Clearly, this is 94. It seems they always round up, as this always casts them in a better light. If they were more accurate, there would be a balance between half the slots looking a little better than they are, and half looking a little worse.

They are keen to steal an extra 1% to flatter the figures, but not that bothered to make sure their script doesn't destroy their hard work by rounding DOWN by several percentage points, let alone one.

It shows a total reliance on automated script generation, with no proof reading by a human before putting the automated content live. It is not even having a human type it out, just one to spend a few minutes checking that a really stupid mistake hasn't been churned out by faulty software. One can cut costs to the bone, and then one can start removing seemingly unneccessary bones from the skeleton, risking the whole thing falling down in a heap.

Well run casinos could always do their own checks, knowing how careless Rival central have been in the past; after all it is not Rival that takes the hit when players read "87%" and take their deposits elsewhere.

 

[Balthazar]

I still think it's better to have a 94.2% rounded up at 95% than a mystery % Microgaming-style.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I still think it's better to have a 94.2% rounded up at 95% than a mystery % Microgaming-style.

94.2 doesn't round up to 95, it rounds down to 94.

I do agree with your point that having a stated RTP (even if it's a bit wrong) is better than nothing at all though.

 

[darkfire]

I still think it's better to have a 94.2% rounded up at 95% than a mystery % Microgaming-style.

I've actually noticed MGS payout percentages showing up in a few places, like if you look at the information section of the games at Virgin Casino.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I've actually noticed MGS payout percentages showing up in a few places, like if you look at the information section of the games at Virgin Casino.

Yeah and that's something else that makes no sense to me about MG, if they are prepared to release individual RTPs for their slots, why not just put the bloody figure on the paytables?

 

[hoff1985]

Win Mill did goot to me today...

I played two games i never played before quite often...

5 reel slot "Moonlight Mystery"... 40c bet had 3 reels wild during freespins: + 124$ (only had 8$ left)

Then i tried Win Mill (just because i was wondering) and i had about 8 bonus rounds in 30 spins... crazy... I'm now back at 240$.. but still some $ to wager...

I know i went a bit off-topic.... But Win Mill isn't that bad in my opinion

Still i will continue to play 5 reel slots 99% of the time