New IGT slot - 'Diamond Queen' RTP

[ChopleyIOM]

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This specifically applies to Diamond Queen at Kerching, but I suspect the message here is essentially the same for any casino running this slot or indeed any IGT slots with the RTP 'ranges'.
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A new IGT slot 'Diamond Queen' turned up at Kerching a couple of days ago. I quite like IGT slots so I always like to take a look when a new one arrives, and in addition to this I got an email from Kerching offering me a 100% match-up to a maximum of £250 with a 25xB WR, but ONLY to be used playing Diamond Queen and nothing else.

Unfortunately the pay table lists the now standard IGT range of RTPs, from 92.97% to 96.08% in this case. (And an RTP expressed as a 'range' is effectively useless.)

At 92.97% I didn't fancy it, at 96.08%, I'd probably have a go. (£250+£250=£500 bankroll with a 25xB WR, that's doable at 95% or above on average luck.)

I emailed Kerching and asked them if they could confirm which maths model they had chosen for this slot, they replied with:

I can confirm that this game has a payback persentage of between 92.97% and 96.08%.

You can find full details of how the games payback system works within the "pays" section by turning to the 4th page. Here you will be given all the available payback information.

Please remember that the level of returns can obviously vary. This is especially the case where slots games which are deemed to be highly volatile - where payouts are of a higher value and less frequent - are chosen.

I replied, thanking them for the response but pointing out that this had not answered my question, given that T-RTP is an absolute figure and can be expressed as a percentage, and that I wished to know which of the maths models IGT offer to casinos they had chosen.

They replied stating that they could not answer the question at that time, but would get back to me, and indeed today I got this email:

I'm afraid I am unable to confirm the exact percentage, only that it will fall within the advertised range. The exact percentage is subject to change by the casino manager and therefore I would not want to confirm what the current percentage is, as tomorrow this may be changed again.

If you require any further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us.

So, erm, crikey - that sucks, doesn't it? RTPs on slots that can change on a daily basis, and they won't tell you what the RTP is at any given time.

(Given the bonus offer I strongly suspect they've gone for the low paying model, especially since in the last 'all slots' bonus offer they sent me, specific slots were excluded from the promotion and they were all slots with 96.5% RTP or higher.)

I applaud Kerching for their honesty, if just to let me know that I definitely need to cross them off the list of places to play at

 

[immortality]

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This specifically applies to Diamond Queen at Kerching, but I suspect the message here is essentially the same for any casino running this slot or indeed any IGT slots with the RTP 'ranges'.
-------------

A new IGT slot 'Diamond Queen' turned up at Kerching a couple of days ago. I quite like IGT slots so I always like to take a look when a new one arrives, and in addition to this I got an email from Kerching offering me a 100% match-up to a maximum of £250 with a 25xB WR, but ONLY to be used playing Diamond Queen and nothing else.

Unfortunately the pay table lists the now standard IGT range of RTPs, from 92.97% to 96.08% in this case. (And an RTP expressed as a 'range' is effectively useless.)

At 92.97% I didn't fancy it, at 96.08%, I'd probably have a go. (£250+£250=£500 bankroll with a 25xB WR, that's doable at 95% or above on average luck.)

I emailed Kerching and asked them if they could confirm which maths model they had chosen for this slot, they replied with:



I replied, thanking them for the response but pointing out that this had not answered my question, given that T-RTP is an absolute figure and can be expressed as a percentage, and that I wished to know which of the maths models IGT offer to casinos they had chosen.

They replied stating that they could not answer the question at that time, but would get back to me, and indeed today I got this email:



So, erm, crikey - that sucks, doesn't it? RTPs on slots that can change on a daily basis, and they won't tell you what the RTP is at any given time.

(Given the bonus offer I strongly suspect they've gone for the low paying model, especially since in the last 'all slots' bonus offer they sent me, specific slots were excluded from the promotion and they were all slots with 96.5% RTP or higher.)

I applaud Kerching for their honesty, if just to let me know that I definitely need to cross them off the list of places to play at

I opened an account with Kerching a while back and deposited to get a feel for the way the games play, needless to say I didn't enjoy the games and the way they played for me, so I just stopped playing there, for a while, until I get bored with MG and Playtech...

Love your vids BTW, you're hilarious

 

[Simmo!]

That's interesting. IGT used to publish the exact RTP at each casino which was obviously popular. Now they admit to switching the RTP's around on a day-to-day basis I had noticed RTP changes at certain casinos on IGT games before now but it seemed rare. I'll try and find out more on this.

Diamond Queen btw is high variance. The only really big wins come from the 3rd spin in the free spins, very occasionally the 2nd spin and I've never seen anything decent on the 1st, while hitting the feature itself is also pretty hard (comparable to Kitty Glitter or Cats I'd say). Good slot but demands respect!

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Diamond Queen btw is high variance. The only really big wins come from the 3rd spin in the free spins, very occasionally the 2nd spin and I've never seen anything decent on the 1st, while hitting the feature itself is also pretty hard (comparable to Kitty Glitter or Cats I'd say). Good slot but demands respect!

Indeed Simmo, and this is exactly why I wanted confirmation of the maths model Kerching were running before I committed £250 to the cause! (And to be clear, the expectation on 'average luck' with the bonus offer was only 'return of deposit' on the 96% maths model, so it's not like I was setting myself up to do a fleecing or anything.)

I only needed to look over the pay table to work out it was a high variance slot, any bonus round that guarantees 2-3-4 wild reels, plus a respin chance, plus stacked wilds - is clearly geared towards monster payouts on a rare basis.

(And indeed a couple of hours lumping away on free play confirmed that.)

I'm very disappointed with the whole thing TBH, and it's really put me off IGT slots - not only do they offer them in a range of RTPs, but we're now faced with casinos who won't tell us what RTPs they're running, AND say they'll change it on a daily basis if they want to, AND send out bonus offers that are very dependent on RTP for a player to decide if he wants to have a go or not.

 

[smcinoz]

always enjoy watching vids of that on youtube

would be so lovely on max bet

wish i could play some IGT games online, so many i enjoy that ive never seen released downunder





dont like the sounds of an adjustable rtp

 

[Christoff]

As Simmo said, Diamond Queen is high variance - I've played it a little and won 170 times my stake in the free spins feature.

And as Simmo said, 90% of the win amount was from the 3rd spin when all 3 middle reels and wild.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

dont like the sounds of an adjustable rtp

Me neither, but I suppose when it really comes down to it, all RTPs are adjustable, Kerching have just been more honest than most about it.

In the case of MG as I understand it, all casinos run the same games at the same RTP, but there's nothing to stop MG themselves tweaking the games centrally. In the case of RTG I believe there are maths models that can be chosen from, IGT we know offer various maths models, and now Kerching have said that they can change it from one day to the next on their IGT slots.

This is one of the main reasons I'm gravitating more towards 3Dice and Jackpot Party. 3Dice have their Zeitgeist page, and Jackpot Party have crystal clear RTPs listed on a game by game basis, including progressive contributions.

MG are probably my third choice at the moment, as at least we know it's all controlled centrally and the casinos just have to run MG slots at MG settings, there's nothing they can mess around with.

The situation with IGT slots is now beyond the pale IMO, as not only do we have the meaningless 'range' listed on the pays table, we also have casinos telling us that they have the capability to change the RTPs at will.

IGT should get a grip and either run their own casino, or get the situation with the maths models sorted out and at the very least have the pays table display the actual maths model the casino is running at the time.

 

[Greigssy]

I had a little go myself,when I say little I played until I got free spins. That rare occurence took me around 500 spins. My payout was 75xbet which is low considering the 3 reels of wild on the last spin.

The paytable on this slot has to be one of the lowest, I found this out when I got 5 of the third highest symbol and only paid 12.5xbet.I would say the only way to get a big payout from this game is to bet big and hope for a bonus as the base game is useless.

Maybe Iam just bitter but everytime I play an IGT newer slot (Siberian Tiger,Fire Opals,Star Trek,Noahs Ark,etc) I get right royally humped.The big wins are just never there and I think they never will be as the base games are so low paying and the bonuses come along every lunar eclipse!

 

[immortality]

I had a little go myself,when I say little I played until I got free spins. That rare occurence took me around 500 spins. My payout was 75xbet which is low considering the 3 reels of wild on the last spin.

The paytable on this slot has to be one of the lowest, I found this out when I got 5 of the third highest symbol and only paid 12.5xbet.I would say the only way to get a big payout from this game is to bet big and hope for a bonus as the base game is useless.

Maybe Iam just bitter but everytime I play an IGT newer slot (Siberian Tiger,Fire Opals,Star Trek,Noahs Ark,etc) I get right royally humped.The big wins are just never there and I think they never will be as the base games are so low paying and the bonuses come along every lunar eclipse!

That is very low for the 3rd highest paying symbol, I played it on demo for a short while today but I got the feeling it would take a while to get free spins so I couldn't have been bothered trying, it's too nice a day here to sit playing slots,

 

[threescatters]

I think this way of listing ranges in the paytable is a complete cop out. They claim they are listing the RTP but its the total opposite, they are not being honest about anything. It's a sad change, I always used to admire IGT for their honesty and openness in listing exact RTPs. That range in diamond queen is a load of balls!

 

[TheLastCylon]

I do not give them credit for being honest. If this isn't just some customer service rep speaking out of turn, or perhaps just being straight-up wrong, this is only worthy of righteous indignation.

It still defies logic to me. Casinos rip people off. That's what they do. We all go in knowing this. The hope is that when we play, we are among the small percentage of people who are not screwed. Why would a casino play with numbers that are fundamentally in their favor to screw the customer more? Pure greed? This just makes me angry.

For me, this throws all of IGT's T-RTP's into question. What Kerching casino has essentially done is say that IGT's T-RTP's can't even be taken as a ballpark. The player has no way of determining the truth.

This is why I want real T-RTP's along with certification of those numbers.

 

[Simmo!]

I think this way of listing ranges in the paytable is a complete cop out. They claim they are listing the RTP but its the total opposite, they are not being honest about anything. It's a sad change, I always used to admire IGT for their honesty and openness in listing exact RTPs. That range in diamond queen is a load of balls!

I agree with the sentiment but would add that each casino is aware of the exact RTP for each game from IGT at their casino and they do have the option to display it. For example, Virgin have Diamond Queen set to 94.89% and they display it.

I'd guess displaying the "range" is the default or the lazy option but ultimately it's down to the casino. Disappointed with Kerching though.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I agree with the sentiment but would add that each casino is aware of the exact RTP for each game from IGT at their casino and they do have the option to display it. For example, Virgin have Diamond Queen set to 94.89% and they display it.

I'd guess displaying the "range" is the default or the lazy option but ultimately it's down to the casino. Disappointed with Kerching though.

The other strange thing is that when I asked the same question about Coyote Moon of Kerching Support, they did give me a direct answer, and there was no mention of them having the ability to change the RTP at will.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Casinos rip people off. That's what they do. We all go in knowing this. The hope is that when we play, we are among the small percentage of people who are not screwed. Why would a casino play with numbers that are fundamentally in their favor to screw the customer more? Pure greed? This just makes me angry.

I don't think that's entirely fair Cylon, there's no rip-off involved where everyone is honest and upfront about what the numbers are, and the player thereafter enters a 'contract to play' of his own free will.

I lose at casinos overall, of course I do, but I don't feel ripped off - as long as I can see what the numbers are before I start to play, and over the course of tens of thousands of spins, I feel that those numbers are right.

Also, I like it where bonus offers are clear, the T&Cs are reasonable, and I don't need to wade through pages and pages of blurb to double-check I'm not breaking any 'rules'.

3Dice I believe are superb in these regards, as are Jackpot Party, and the Pinnacle casino running Galewind software was a stunning model of probity. (Unfortunately with Galewind the slots just didn't really do it for me somehow, I like more flashing lights and fancy stuff.)

There are good choices out there for us players, it's just a question of being choosy and not giving our custom to the places that don't make the grade.

The situation with Kerching and the 'we can change the RTP of our slots at will and you won't know what the RTP is' statement, is obviously dreadful, so they're off the list.

 

[Simmo!]

The other strange thing is that when I asked the same question about Coyote Moon of Kerching Support, they did give me a direct answer, and there was no mention of them having the ability to change the RTP at will.

Wolf Run (from memory) has a set RTP of 94.98% rather than a range and Coyote Moon is a clone.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

EDIT - Wolf Run is fixed 94.98%, Coyote Moon looks like it has two RTP options - but other than that they are clones.

EDIT AGAIN - They're not straight clones, the bonus round behaviour is a bit different according to the pay tables.

Old Attachment (Invalid)

Subject
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Coyote Moon


Discussion Thread
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Response Via Email(Moomie Choudhury) - 26/04/2012 01.23 PM

Thank you for your email.

In regards to our conversation earlier today, I can confirm Kerching is using the 94.98% paymodel (the higher paying version) for Coyote Moon.

If you require any further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Kind Regards

Moomie Choudhuy
Customer Service Team
Kerching Casino

We want you to enjoy playing on our site, so we’ve made it fast and simple for you to regulate your financial activity with us. Our range of Player Protection limits, which can be accessed from each of our games and from ‘Player Protection’ under ‘My Account’ give you the ability to stay in complete control.

You can easily set daily, weekly and monthly limits in any combination of deposit, wager or loss. You can also self-exclude for twenty four hours, or longer by contacting us (up to three times). Player Protection limits put you in complete control.


Question Reference #120426-000080
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Product Level 1: Kerching Casino
Date Created: 26/04/2012 01.23 PM
Last Updated: 26/04/2012 01.23 PM
Status: Solved
Contact Source: Email

 

[TheLastCylon]

I don't think that's entirely fair Cylon, there's no rip-off involved where everyone is honest and upfront about what the numbers are, and the player thereafter enters a 'contract to play' of his own free will.

I lose at casinos overall, of course I do, but I don't feel ripped off - as long as I can see what the numbers are before I start to play, and over the course of tens of thousands of spins, I feel that those numbers are right.

Also, I like it where bonus offers are clear, the T&Cs are reasonable, and I don't need to wade through pages and pages of blurb to double-check I'm not breaking any 'rules'.

3Dice I believe are superb in these regards, as are Jackpot Party, and the Pinnacle casino running Galewind software was a stunning model of probity. (Unfortunately with Galewind the slots just didn't really do it for me somehow, I like more flashing lights and fancy stuff.)

There are good choices out there for us players, it's just a question of being choosy and not giving our custom to the places that don't make the grade.

The situation with Kerching and the 'we can change the RTP of our slots at will and you won't know what the RTP is' statement, is obviously dreadful, so they're off the list.

Certainly true. I didn't mean the language to declare that casinos are truly ripping people off. In essence, we are buying entertainment from them, and that's a fair trade. I meant it to indicate that saying that a casino is "ripping off" someone is a hard statement to make. We know that we will lose money, so if a casino that changes its RTP is ripping us off, then every casino is ripping us off. It's the nature of the beast.

Which is why I'm so dismayed by a casino acting this way. They will get our money! A higher RTP just means they have to wait a bit longer. Why try to screw us?

 

[Kerching]

Hi

I work for Kerching and believe it or not this thread has given us some real food for thought.

We genuinely want to be as transparent as possible with our players, we’re not faceless or arrogant and are happy to field questions and respond to player feedback both positive and negative. I have to admit reading this thread you’ve made a really valid point regarding RTP

Kerching has over 50 slot titles, the vast majority of which were already set to the highest RTP, however we identified five games which were not set to the highest RTP (i.e. set at 95% rather than maximum 96%). I can assure that these have now been changed meaning every game on Kerching is now set to the highest RTP possible.

The vast majority of our slots games RTP are set at 95%, with a few little higher, e.g

Cleopatra 95%
Coyote Moon 95%
Da Vinci Diamonds 95%
Diamond Queen 95%
Vacation USA 96%

Thank you for your feedback and taking the time to comment. We do monitor these boards and are keen to look after our players, so the comments do matter and have made a difference

Best regards,
Kerching Casino

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Thanks for that post 'Kerching', I appreciate the communication.

I hope you can understand that from the player's perspective, these 'ranges' of RTPs can be somewhat disconcerting, especially when your customer service gives out the message 'The casino manager just changes it when he wants to.'

It's a shame that your current 100% match offer to a maximum of £250 specifically excludes all your highest RTP slots, otherwise I'd be depositing and having a play!

 

[threescatters]

Wow thats great! I applaud Kerching for taking this stance. I think its fantastic they have set them all that high. Even if they had set them low but changed the paytables to show this I would still have applauded them for honesty, this is the absolute best outcome possible tho!

I hope IGT get the message that listing ranges is not acceptable. Either list the RTP or dont, but dont put a range. If a casino can choose the RTP then thats fine, but whatever one they pick should be displayed as an exact figure and NOT as a range.

 

[Simmo!]

I hope IGT get the message that listing ranges is not acceptable. Either list the RTP or dont, but dont put a range. If a casino can choose the RTP then thats fine, but whatever one they pick should be displayed as an exact figure and NOT as a range.

You may already know this but for those that don't, Kerching IS IGT

 

[threescatters]

You may already know this but for those that don't, Kerching IS IGT

I did not know this, I thought they were still owned by barcrest or something - thanks!

I hope they stop rolling out slots to other casinos with ranges in the paytables then!

 

[Simmo!]

I did not know this, I thought they were still owned by barcrest or something - thanks!

The rep can probably correct me if I'm wrong but I think they acquired Kerching when they acquired Barcrest, rebranded it as IGT, sold Barcrest to Scientific Games or someone but retained Kerching.