More eCOGRA Seals Awarded

[jetset]

Dave, you have become one of the most prominent naysayers in the industry unless it concerns the discredited OCA, a fine idea badly handled and now languishing. It's my guess that your misguided attacks on eCOGRA (and btw you are absolutely wrong on that independent issue) stem from your other well known agendas.

It is clear that you are not even prepared to consider letting this strongly funded and well structured organisation show what it can do for the players and the industry, and that you will remain a sideline sniper offering little that is constructive.

When eCOGRA does pprove itself, and I am confident that it will I hope you will be as keen to praise as you have thus far been to disparage.

 

[rowmare]

1. If Ecogra disclosed their methodology, it would be open to abuse and fraud by unscrupulous casino operators.

2. Caruso, you aren't making sense to me. For one thing, how is the fact that "Ecogra casinos are solid" a problem?

3. I Agree with Dominique when she said, "I am happy to see any attempt this industry makes to self regulate. Lessons are learned and progress is made. I like to see positive action, not just the pointing out of faults. For that reason, I am going to support eCOGRA."

A look at the independent bodies who have put their names on Ecogra gives me hope that eCOGRA will be a great asset to all of us. I will support it myself until there's reason to do otherwise.

Also, this statement, "Do they not see the enormous value of providing this evidence and PROVING the validity of their TGTR process? "Prove" Micogaming fair? ...", is contradictory. If you don't know why, then you don't know enough to have any opinion in this matter.

 

[GrandMaster]

1. If Ecogra disclosed their methodology, it would be open to abuse and fraud by unscrupulous casino operators.

Why? If the method is robust, it cannot be manipulated even if you know how it works. The security of the system lies in its design. For example, the cryptographic protocols used in ATMs or in e-commerce are publicly available, they have been scrutinised by experts. You can also have a go at trying to crack them.

At the moment we are supposed to trust TGTR because we are told to do so. This is just not good enough.

 

[jen]

I won 1,840 euros on free, no deposit, money one of the approved casino sent me, cashed out by wire and kept waiting for the wire to reach my bank account for 1.5 months. My queries were largely ignored by the casino.

I filed a complaint with eCogra . Three day after my complaint I got a response from the casino and got the funds exactly one week after the complaint submission.

 

[dave_r]

eCogra was the brainstorm idea of Microgaming founder Martin Moshal. He made the decision to form a coalition between himself and CON. This is the real truth. The truth everyone is so afraid to say.

Ecogra and its agenda is 70% controlled by Moshal himself.
Andrew Beveridge is simply one of his puppets.

The smart Casinomeister members already know this.

Only Microgaming casinos have thus far received the prestigious eCogra seal of approval. And yet Jetset continues on with his mumbo-jumbo of calling eCogra "independent".

39 MGS powered casinos have been approved.
NO CASINOS from any other software developer have yet been approved.

A TRUELY INDEPENDENT WATCHDOG would show that its not biased by approving a few casinos from different developers (at the beginning) , rather than 23 from one developer and than another 16 from the SAME developer.

As far as player protection goes, eCogra is a great thing. The fact that Jen got paid immediately speaks volumes about eCogra's ability to resolve player disputes. I applaude that.

But it still doesn't prove the software is honest, or that TGTR is effective.

I'm sure that other software developers will eventually get approved, and that thier casinos will eventually be added to the list. However, expect these other companies to be very skeptical of eCogra's so-called "independence", since they are afraid that after the in-house inspection is completed, Beveridge will pass on thier trade secrets directly to Moshal.

And noone wants that competition to be even a half step ahead of them.

Moshal is an excellent chess player.

"Random number generators work in the following fashion:
1. Take a range of fractions (usually between 0 -1) and run the random function on the range.
2. Then apply this fraction to the actual range of numbers that you are interested in (e.g. in a card game with 4 decks the probability of each card coming up decreases by a factor of 4)
3. What you can do to influence the outcome is to weight the outcome based upon some other event by also applying a variable to the function you create that generates the outcome.

If you want it to be truly random you can weight the values based upon some value, which is infinitesimal such as the current server time down to microseconds.

By the same token you can also pass a blank variable, which will register as a NULL value, and then at any point in time to weight the outcome values upwards or downwards, you can then pass a non-null variable and this will then skew the outcome of the randomness.

Basically this is how the Random Number Generator (RNG) works:

1. Client software connects to the port on the Gamingserver.
2. Client software requests a game that player wants.
3. Player requests to be dealt or to spin
Client software connects to gaming server and asks for a random number to be generated on a specific port.
4. Based upon the weighting of the RNG the result will come back as within probability or skewed.
5. On the MGS Gaming server the following parameters are passed to the RND: game, game type, time (hh:mm:ss:ss.sss) and client parameters request # etc. The MGS Gaming server RNG service can be weighted according to a variable that is usually left blank.
6. Request result is then recorded and sent back to the client."

 

[dave_r]

Let's not forget....

2 eCogra approved casinos that have shown ROGUE casino behaviror in the past:

RiverNile
and Golden Riviera

Also, the Fortune Lounge group, which in my personal opinion is guilty of semi-rogue behavior right now. I got blacklisted from this group for winning way to much there, and after following all terms/conditions to the letter and emailing the VP there, they are using every excuse and lie in the book. Looks like I don't have a screenshot of wagering req's 3 months ago, but I will be complaining to eCogra and got2bet anyway.

 

[jpm]

If this is true, then its not really a random number, but a random WEIGHTED number. In my book, that is called rigged.

"Random number generators work in the following fashion:
1. Take a range of fractions (usually between 0 -1) and run the random function on the range.
2. Then apply this fraction to the actual range of numbers that you are interested in (e.g. in a card game with 4 decks the probability of each card coming up decreases by a factor of 4)
3. What you can do to influence the outcome is to weight the outcome based upon some other event by also applying a variable to the function you create that generates the outcome.

If you want it to be truly random you can weight the values based upon some value, which is infinitesimal such as the current server time down to microseconds.

By the same token you can also pass a blank variable, which will register as a NULL value, and then at any point in time to weight the outcome values upwards or downwards, you can then pass a non-null variable and this will then skew the outcome of the randomness.

Basically this is how the Random Number Generator (RNG) works:

1. Client software connects to the port on the Gamingserver.
2. Client software requests a game that player wants.
3. Player requests to be dealt or to spin
Client software connects to gaming server and asks for a random number to be generated on a specific port.
4. Based upon the weighting of the RNG the result will come back as within probability or skewed.
5. On the MGS Gaming server the following parameters are passed to the RND: game, game type, time (hh:mm:ss:ss.sss) and client parameters request # etc. The MGS Gaming server RNG service can be weighted according to a variable that is usually left blank.
6. Request result is then recorded and sent back to the client."

 

[jpm]

Maybe so, but the algorithms used are kept secret.

Any statistical analysis could be manipulated if you know the methodology. Keeping it secret is not a problem in my mind. I'm sure it took many people quite a while to derive the methodology. If they just make it public, anyone else can use it for their own version of eCOGRA without doing a big chunk of the homework. It'd be like requiring Pepsi or CocaCola to make their formula public. Or requiring the IRS to publish how it determines who will be audited. Those who are cheating will be sure to modify their behavior to avoid setting off the audit alert if they know exactly what is being monitored/analyzed.

Why? If the method is robust, it cannot be manipulated even if you know how it works. The security of the system lies in its design. For example, the cryptographic protocols used in ATMs or in e-commerce are publicly available, they have been scrutinised by experts. You can also have a go at trying to crack them.

 

[GrandMaster]

Maybe so, but the algorithms used are kept secret.

Any statistical analysis could be manipulated if you know the methodology. Keeping it secret is not a problem in my mind. I'm sure it took many people quite a while to derive the methodology. If they just make it public, anyone else can use it for their own version of eCOGRA without doing a big chunk of the homework. It'd be like requiring Pepsi or CocaCola to make their formula public. Or requiring the IRS to publish how it determines who will be audited. Those who are cheating will be sure to modify their behavior to avoid setting off the audit alert if they know exactly what is being monitored/analyzed.

You can generate very good random numbers with published algorithms. Check out www.random.org, especially www.random.org/essay.html and the links there, for real information on random numbers as opposed to what dave_r wrote.

Statistical analyis cannot be manipulated as easily as you think, and it is really hard to fake true randomness. Do you really think that if they told us they were applying certain tests to randomly chosen blocks of random numbers, it would enable the casinos to fake data, since they would not even know which numbers to fake? There are several tests for randomness, if you were trying to pad biassed data to make it pass the chi square test, it would be difficult not to mess up the entropy test and the correlation test.

The argument for secrecy just does not wash. I simply asked for more information so that I can make an informed decision on the aspects of the project I am qualified to assess. They can certainly keep the details of the implementation secret. If I go to the doctor, I expect the doctor to tell me what sort of test he wants to do and why and what the results mean. Even equipped with all this information, I still won't be able to set up another doctor's office, but I feel much better as a patient.

 

[jpm]

But the doctor has years of training and experience developing his skills, he's not following a set formula or blueprint like you could with this methodology or the pepsi formula.

If you knew the exact methodology you sure could skew the numbers your way pretty simply I think... First, since you supply the data they are using in their methodology, you run through it yourself and see how it looks. If it doesn't look good, you have a couple of house players login and do whatever is necessary (win $$ at particular games) to make the numbers line up to what you want the auditors to see. Since they are house players, you're not losing anything if they need to win to skew things favorably. That's how I'd do it if I were running an unscrupulous casino and knew the exact methodology used to check up on me.

 

[jetset]

Jeez, Dave - yet another "Microgaming is the devil incarnate" conspiracy theory.

Is it possible that the reason MGS casinos are first up with the Seal is merely because they applied first, and that there is nothing Machiavellian in the independent directors' decision to award Seals in the order that the applicants qualified?

Your post contradicts itself later on by surmising that other software providers will receive the Seal, too. I'm sure that will be the case, so there goes your theory on MGS exclusivity.

I am not qualified to argue, nor will I try to, your observations on how the RNG system works and your theories on how the TGTR might be sidetracked by the many quality and trouble free casinos that use PwC. I suspect that, as usual there is a logical refutation to your extreme views but that will have to come from someone else with the requisite knowledge.

In the meantime I am personally far more comfortable with the idea that a large, respected and multi-national professional business services outfit like PwC has staked its reputation on this TGTR system for many years than I am with your biased personal accusations against Microgaming, Moshal and for that matter the casinos.

You continue to try and discredit the only strong and independent (yes - INDEPENDENT) player protection body currently available to the players - eCOGRA. One that is already proving itself and one that has an upfront and comprehensive regulatory regime that is being applied by a third party inspection process.

Grandmaster's more reasoned approach seeking further information is far more palatable to me but imo JPM makes some very good points in the debate as to whether an independent professional organisation like PwC can disclose the inner workings of its TGTR and the dangers inherent in doing so. The decision on whether to do so I guess is PwC's because it is their property, their business and their reputation.

But to dismiss the entire eCOGRA initiative on grounds that the TGTR is not acceptable in a technical sense (I think most of the detractors have conceded that MGS and CON software is largely fair and honest) is going too far.

Grandmaster, I'm sincerely assuming that your qualifications are relevant to assessing the TGTR process in asking the following question. Exactly what sort of expert verification would you consider satisfactory, and who would you respect as such a verification authority ?

 

[jetset]

Let's not forget....

2 eCogra approved casinos that have shown ROGUE casino behaviror in the past:

RiverNile
and Golden Riviera

Also, the Fortune Lounge group, which in my personal opinion is guilty of semi-rogue behavior right now. I got blacklisted from this group for winning way to much there, and after following all terms/conditions to the letter and emailing the VP there, they are using every excuse and lie in the book. Looks like I don't have a screenshot of wagering req's 3 months ago, but I will be complaining to eCogra and got2bet anyway.

I see, DaveR does not think eCOGRA is worth a damn but he's going to use them anyway to resolve his problem with Fortune Lounge? Actually, that's a good idea - get some non-emotional independent people working on the problem with the casino.

We've already examined the past reputation issue regarding GR in some detail earlier in this thread, so let's move on to FL and Dave's unspecified complaint against them. "Blacklisted" is pretty serious, Dave - would you care to give the full details rather than simply throw an undetailed slur out there?

Hold that - perhaps better to get your eCOGRA complaint adjudicated first before you post. Here's where you go www.ecogra.org/disputes.

 

[GrandMaster]

But the doctor has years of training and experience developing his skills, he's not following a set formula or blueprint like you could with this methodology or the pepsi formula.

If you knew the exact methodology you sure could skew the numbers your way pretty simply I think... First, since you supply the data they are using in their methodology, you run through it yourself and see how it looks. If it doesn't look good, you have a couple of house players login and do whatever is necessary (win $$ at particular games) to make the numbers line up to what you want the auditors to see. Since they are house players, you're not losing anything if they need to win to skew things favorably. That's how I'd do it if I were running an unscrupulous casino and knew the exact methodology used to check up on me.

Newflash: statisticians also have years of training (4-5 years for Master's level, 7-8 for PhD).

To respond to the above scenario: If the results are genuinely random, then any unbiased sample is also random. It is not enough to manipulate the overall results. You could test results of individual players or groups of players. If the game is rigged, then results would be skewed in one direction if house players are not selected, and in the other if they are. This would produce some weird statistics. I repeat, it is very hard to fake results on a large scale that pass several randomness tests. Testing and auditing can never prove that the results are truly random, only that they are consistent with being random, but if the auditing process is thorough enough then it is simply easier and cheaper to offer a fair game then to rig it and then put in the effort to produce fake results to make the numbers look right.

 

[rowmare]

The online casino auditing process, Total Gaming Transaction Review (TGTR) was Pioneered by Microgaming in association with PriceWaterhouseCooper. The process has since been adopted by other software providers such as Boss Media, Casino On Net and Cryptologic.

I am baffled how anyone can say that Microgaming's fairness is well established and that they doubt the credibility of TGTR........am I missing something or are they? Is this not a contradiction?

 

[GrandMaster]

The online casino auditing process, Total Gaming Transaction Review (TGTR) was Pioneered by Microgaming in association with PriceWaterhouseCooper. The process has since been adopted by other software providers such as Boss Media, Casino On Net and Cryptologic.

I am baffled how anyone can say that Microgaming's fairness is well established and that they doubt the credibility of TGTR........am I missing something or are they? Is this not a contradiction?

You have the first paragraph on your website. What is your source? Do you know anything about how TGTR works? I am sure that the software providers know more about it than we are told.

I am not accusing of MG of cheating, but I would like to know what TGTR involves, so that I can decide for myself whether it is really worth something. I won't trust something just because an accounting firm says that they have checked something by a secret process and the results were OK. Remember Enron, Barings Bank, (its auditors Coopers & Lybrand, now part of PwC, were found guilty of professional failings, and fined by a court in London), Equitable Life, Parmalat, just to name a few recent corporate failures.

 

[rowmare]

That's interesting - I got that information off of Microgaming's website a while back, but it doesn't seem to be there anymore.

Well, geez, now I'm going to have to do more research. I've taken information for granted without prying the lid off and exploring it fully.

It's worth noting, however, that not all the casinos which have a logo from a "well-known international accounting firm" are audited; some are simply reviewed.

 

[jpm]

I am not accusing of MG of cheating, but I would like to know what TGTR involves, so that I can decide for myself whether it is really worth something. I won't trust something just because an accounting firm says that they have checked something by a secret process and the results were OK.

I'd agree with that. That little PWC logo you see on most casinos & casino websites has never given me any comfort or assurance that I was getting a fair shake for the exact reasons you mentioned (enron, etc). I have hope though for eCOGRA approval offering the assurance and comfort that the casino had to go through some scrutiny before they were awarded the seal. And that they have to answer to a code of conduct and answer to eCOGRA if a player has a problem with them.

The way I see it, isn't SOME regulation better than nothing? Right now we've got nothing but volunteers like Bryan & co. who help people out of the goodness of their hearts and I think we agree they are worth much more than what they're paid. He could get fed up and tell us we're on our own at any moment.

To have a central place that is in essence doing not only what Bryan does after there's a problem, but start out before there is a problem by investigating and requiring the casino abide by a certain code of conduct and ethics is extremely valuable. Lets give them a chance to prove (or disprove) themselves. I'm sure there will be plenty of opportunity for them to do so, and the early reports so far look good.

 

[jetset]

Good post that gets back to the real and practical values of eCOGRA, JPM.

However, it worries me when Enron et al internal crookery is used as a blanket example of why we should distrust accounting firms. Tarring everyone with the same brush has never sat well with me.

Great as the temptation may be after the high profile corporate failings of last year, I do not believe anyone can reasonably consign all accounting / business service providers to the "unreliable" and "distrust" category as easily as that. In the case of Barings for example the primary failure was rampant but devious criminal actions by a trusted employee of the bank. A deliberate act of commission with criminal motivation. That resulted in collateral damage to companies such as the auditors.

Trust and honesty in professional oversight companies like PwC goes to the heart of the business element in our society and imo is not taken lightly by those involved.

In the present debate we are considering one of the largest of those oversight groups, and a unique and proprietary analytical process that it has specifically and expertly developed for the third party continuous monitoring of online gambling operations. That system has been accepted by leading elements in the industry as fair and efficient.

In the case of services to the online gambling industry, the reward for PwC is probably a very small part of their overall multi-national income. I find it highly unlikely that a group of this stature and reputation would risk the billions of dollars of business they do in other sectors by being a party to anything questionable that might impact on their reputation.

Nothing but professional and honest behaviour in regard to the TGTR would be countenanced, and their integrity is impressive.

Conspiracy theories such as those presented earlier in this thread by DaveR implying that PwC would be anything but confidential, professional and impartial in assessing eCOGRA applicants is similarly unlikely to say the least. The liklihood of them passing on information from one applicant to another via eCOGRA for example is in my opinion not only insulting, but ridiculous.

 

[rowmare]

I agree. To use Enron an a blanket example of why we shouldn't trust accounting firms is completely baseless and rediculous.

Unless, of course, the accounting firm at hand is in bed with the Bush clan.

How George Bush Jr. Got Layed

Federal Election Commission records show that Enron Chairman Kenneth Lay donated more than $350,000 directly to Bush campaigns since 1997.

Lay also gave another $100,000 to Republican candidates and fundraising committees.

In addition, Enron Corporation, including employees, also donated $1.5 million in soft money to Bush and Republican committees.

More recently, Lay and his wife donated $10,000 to the "Florida Recount Fund," and another $100,000 to the "Presidential Inaugural Fund."

As one of his fundraising "Pioneers," Lay helped raise more than $100,000 for Bush's campaign for president.

That is the tip of the Enron iceburg.

 

[jetset]

I guess that would depend on the definition of Enron as an "accounting firm", whether the donations were made from personal or company funds and properly declared and whether it is right and proper for corporate America to donate funds to Republican and Democrat political causes - or were those donations made personally to Dubya?

I don't personally much care for the practice, but it's a part of most societies. In my own country for example the recent general elections were preceded by a plethora of media stories on how much money various major national corporates had donated to which political parties. Some of them had a sliding scale so that all parties got something relative to their size and influence. In the end it's you and I as shareholders who are really paying.

 

[jpm]

The problem with the big accounting firms is that they typically do consulting work for the clients they are supposed to be auditing. That was a big reason why many of these huge companies like Enron, Worldcom, etc were able to show favorable audits, yet go bankrupt due to improprieties in their accounting practices. The so-called auditing companies had so much revenue coming from the consulting side of the business (more than from the accounting side) that they didn't want to risk losing business that by giving an unfavorable audit. In effect, the inmates were in charge of the asylums there and there was a clear conflict of interest going on, but until the sh*t hit the fan, nobody wanted to acknowledge it. This was the basis for my broad brush painting. Since then, they firms have separated the two businesses (auditing & consulting) or companies will employ one firm for consulting and another for auditing so I think its probably more reliable now.

(sorry for the sidetrac, just wanted to explain why I felt that way about the PWC logo)

 

[dave_r]

To all those who think I'm a conspiracy theorist, I wish to remind you about all the times I have been right in the past. I stand by my comments regarding Moshal and eCogra, and will go into more details as to TIES between these 2 orginizations in the future.

As far as Fortune Lounge goes, after 4 years of gambling with them, they have given me the boot. However, my accounts are open at all other Microgaming powered gambling dens. Fortune Lounge simply doesn't like players who extract to much money on a frequent basis. I have been lied to and told my IP address is suspect of being linked tosomeone else. This is the biggest lie I ever heard in my life. JUST TELL ME THE TRUTH. I don't mind being blacklisted for winning too much, but at least don't lie to me about it.

 

[jetset]

QUOTE: To all those who think I'm a conspiracy theorist, I wish to remind you about all the times I have been right in the past. I stand by my comments regarding Moshal and eCogra, and will go into more details as to TIES between these 2 orginizations in the future.UNQUOTE

Well, Dave I for one just wish you would do that. Put up or shut up because you have always made a lot of unproved accusations but don't seem to follow them up with hard evidence. And I mean hard evidence, not just your personal interpretation of events that you see as related in your feud with Microgaming.

Your comments and slurs regarding eCOGRA are a case in point. Are you really seriously suggesting that a third party inspection group of international repute like PwC would take confidential information from one eCOGRA applicant under inspection and pass it to eCOGRA's CEO? And then that CEO would pass this information on to one of their competitors?

Where is the proof on your emphatic claim that:

"Ecogra and its agenda is 70% controlled by Moshal himself. Andrew Beveridge is simply one of his puppets." This totally discounts the executive control of internationally respected gambling personalities on the Board to whom Beveridge as a professional manager reports.

"eCogra was the brainstorm idea of Microgaming founder Martin Moshal. He made the decision to form a coalition between himself and CON. This is the real truth. The truth everyone is so afraid to say." Again, just a statement and no evidence. Do you not think the very independent, talented and successful John Anderson who founded and heads up CON might be a prime mover in the eCOGRA initiative simply because he has the long vision to see that the potential for everyone involved in this industry from the player on down will be stunted if we continue in the unregulated manner that has been a feature of this business so far. And why would everyone be "afraid to say"?

"Only Microgaming casinos have thus far received the prestigious eCogra seal of approval." True...so far. You use this to incorrectly draw the conclusion that eCOGRA is not independent, again ignoring the fact that control over the Seal system rests with the independent directors of eCOGRA and not its founding funders. I suggest you watch this space and then be prepared eat your words, because there is already evidence that eCOGRA is an open shop and has repeatedly stated (most recently yesterday with a release about their general briefing at GIGSE) that all providers and casinos that meet their criteria and commit to regulation are welcome.

"NO CASINOS from any other software developer have yet been approved." Again, watch this space. And you draw the false conclusion that this is because eCOGRA is an exclusive MGS club, totally ignoring the more obvious possibility that the casinos in the first two tranches happened to be the first to apply and the first to pass the rigorous inspections.

"However, expect these other companies to be very skeptical of eCogra's so-called "independence", since they are afraid that after the in-house inspection is completed, Beveridge will pass on thier trade secrets directly to Moshal." See above - do you really believe that Beveridge as a professional manager or PwC as the inspection third party would be involved in this sort of unethical and actionable activity? Another of your way out there scenarios.

 

[jetset]

ECOGRA TO BRIEF SOFTWARE PROVIDERS

GIGSE an opportunity to find out about Seals and regulation

Software providers committed to player protection and better credibility for the industry are invited to attend a special briefing during the upcoming GIGSE conference in Toronto.

Executives from eCOGRA (eCommerce and Online Gaming Regulation and Assurance) will be presenting a detailed briefing on the process involved in achieving Seal status, which has already been awarded to 41 quality online casinos. The briefing will include the signing-up process, costs, review procedures, the benefits of affiliation and a question and answer session.

The presentation will be made by eCOGRA CEO Andrew Beveridge and will take place in the Grenadier Room at the Intercontinental Toronto Centre at 1.00pm on Monday May 17, 2004.

"Our initiative to improve safety and efficiency in the industry is open to all software providers and casino operators with the requisite commitment", says Beveridge. "eCOGRA is a sincere, strongly funded and independent body focused on guiding online players to genuinely safe and efficient casinos operating to carefully developed and enforced standards.

"Our goal is to introduce sensible self-imposed regulation that will improve business by attracting to our approved casinos a bigger percentage of gamblers tired of questionable practices and inept operational conduct elsewhere".

The purpose of the reception is to provide interested parties with an overview of the objectives and progress of the organisation, and to encourage more software providers to apply for eCOGRA membership resulting in additional reputable casinos earning the Seal.

 

[GrandMaster]

Executives from eCOGRA (eCommerce and Online Gaming Regulation and Assurance) will be presenting a detailed briefing on the process involved in achieving Seal status, which has already been awarded to 41 quality online casinos. The briefing will include the signing-up process, costs, review procedures, the benefits of affiliation and a question and answer session.

"Our goal is to introduce sensible self-imposed regulation that will improve business by attracting to our approved casinos a bigger percentage of gamblers tired of questionable practices and inept operational conduct elsewhere".

It sounds like that casinos are allowed to learn about the procedures, so the arguments put forward justifying secrecy are not valid, it is just us stupid players who are kept in the dark.

The second paragraph seems to imply that ecogra is more of a marketing trick for casinos than an organisation genuinely interested in helping players. The approved casinos display the "ecogra players seal of approval", which might be mistake for something awarded by players, whereas there is no player involvement at any point in the process.

The dispute resolution service is useful, but otherwise I have not seen a convincing argument why I should trust the "approved" casinos more than any others.