Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating

[spearmaster]

This was your quote of me talking shit. Excuse me from expressing how I feel but as you have already found out I am not alone in my thinking. I implore you to relieve yourself of your efforts in this matter. You are not getting us any closer to the truth and are only acting as EH's shield. My post was not talking shit. It is what I truly believe and apparently others too. Be a moderator, and don't try to act as an omnipotent internet investigative reporter. You are a moderator. To us posting, that is what you are. Dont assume power and authority over this issue.

"making a mess of"
"obviously become"
"losing your wit and patience"
"only acting as EH's shield"
"omnipotent"
"assume power and authority"

All of this is talking shit, Kengam, and in just TWO posts. There is no question of that. This is a personal attack and not related to the issue whatsoever.

The next time will earn you your vacation. Either keep to the issue at hand or take a break yourself.

 

[spearmaster]

Spearmaster - I have no issue with your personal integrity, you've put in a lot of hard work with the best of intentions and I appreciate it.

I said in my first post that one result of EH's refusal to respond to issues on this thread would be a general fall in the level of debate and an increase in personal bickering. Well in my case I'm afraid it's become true, because rather than sit and stare at my screen in impotent fury at EH's silence, I have been venting, resorting to sarcasm and generally been expressing myself in a manner unworthy of myself and this thread.

I have therefore decided to ban myself from making any further postings on it. I have nothing new to say, and there is nothing left worth hanging around for for me, EH aren't going to take questions and I'm not interested in the deliberate / incompetence debate.

So before I get into a time-consuming semantics argument about which of the words potty, shit, asshole etc are most offensive, I shall bow out with what little dignity I have left.

I appreciate that 120sam - I know that you are not attacking me personally. However - my post immediately above shows who is making personal attacks and how. And there is a limit to how much of that I will tolerate, whether it is directed at me or anyone else.

edit -> oh, and by the way, just before my 29-hour flight back home, I actually tried to ban MYSELF because I was sure I was going to lose it.

Unfortunately, I found out that I can't ban myself... LOL... and fortunately I managed to hold myself together, and I did sleep well on the flight after all

 

[kengam]

"making a mess of"
"obviously become"
"losing your wit and patience"
"only acting as EH's shield"
"omnipotent"
"assume power and authority"


what part of my opinions here do you feel insulted by? You need a thicker skin if you can't take this kind of criticism. I believe all of this to be true. You have exhibited a little of all of this within the last week or so. If you are going to ban me for stating how I feel about your involvement then you are not handling things very well. Maybe you should take a step back and re-evaluate your involvement in the situation (note-constructive criticism). I appreciate the thought behind your effort, but not your efforts per se.

I am not attacking you personally. I am attacking the way you are handling this. Personally I would rather hear from English Harbour and not you. The more you defend them the less chance I get to see this happen. And lets be honest here, you have been defending them since day one. They do not deserve your services, and quite frankly you do not deserve the inevitable treatment you are getting by defending a proven cheater. Let the one who was caught cheating defend itself. And before you say your definition of cheating... mine is any casino, knowingly or not, who has used software that produces an unfair advantage over unsuspecting players.

 

[spearmaster]

"making a mess of"
"obviously become"
"losing your wit and patience"
"only acting as EH's shield"
"omnipotent"
"assume power and authority"


what part of my opinions here do you feel insulted by? You need a thicker skin if you can't take this kind of criticism. I believe all of this to be true. You have exhibited a little of all of this within the last week or so. If you are going to ban me for stating how I feel about your involvement then you are not handling things very well. Maybe you should take a step back and re-evaluate your involvement in the situation (note-constructive criticism). I appreciate the thought behind your effort, but not your efforts per se.

What I personally feel about this is irrelevant. Criticism is fine too. But you state all of the above as if it were fact - and that constitutes a personal attack.

edit -> And by the way, although I couldn't ban myself, I just discovered that I *could* remove myself as a moderator, so I have done so. Now we're on a level playing field.

And lets be honest here, you have been defending them since day one.

You got it wrong. Every defendant has the right to a fair trial. Many of you were intent on preventing that.

 

[The Dude]

I thought Spear was going to come back early next Monday or so to finish this up? Why doesn't everybody just take a break from this thread or at least let Spear take care of what he needs to take care of instead of hammering away in the forum.

And let's chill out a bit, eh?

As for "potty mouth language" this is usually frowned upon when it's a direct insult to another member like "suck cxxk you fxxk-wad." That's what I mean. I and others use the "f" or "s" word occasionally in the forum without a problem.

...I am actually a big fan of Fortune Lounge, and the fact that they are in the rogue pit for "bad marketing strategy" while English Harbour hide behind a wall of silence with the support of a moderator shows how arbitrary the little regulation we have in this industry is. But hey, this is CM's site and he makes the rules and if you don't like it ...

When was FL admitted to the rogue pit? I just stopped endorsing them, that's all and that's a big difference.

 

[kengam]

You got it wrong. Every defendant has the right to a fair trial. Many of you were intent on preventing that.

Then let them go on trial. The only statement they issued here on day one of the trial turned out to be perjury. They did not ask you to defend them so why do you insist on it? Put them on the stand and not you. You were not caught cheating, they were. You did not deny it, they did.

 

[spearmaster]

Then let them go on trial. The only statement they issued here on day one of the trial turned out to be perjury. They did not ask you to defend them so why do you insist on it? Put them on the stand and not you. You were not caught cheating, they were. You did not deny it, they did.

As I have said time and time again, I am intent on finding the truth. I am not judge or jury - the players are.

What I have been posting are my own personal findings based on investigating their code and other information which I have received. If that is defending them, then it is a passive defense.

 

[The Dude]

...What I have been posting are my own personal findings based on investigating their code and other information which I have received. If that is defending them, then it is a passive defense.

That's pretty much on the spot.

It's really sad seeing this thread spiral downward into a pile of crap. Perhaps some of you need to turn off your computers and walk away from it all for a couple of days.

 

[kengam]

As I have said time and time again, I am intent on finding the truth. I am not judge or jury - the players are.

What I have been posting are my own personal findings based on investigating their code and other information which I have received. If that is defending them, then it is a passive defense.

Why not ask them the truth? The truth should be in their double up logs which they have refused to release. You have been acting as judge with your threats of banning posters. We are not looking for how they cheated. We are looking for whether or not this was the first and only time they cheated. Your holy code will not tell you that no matter what kind of spin you put on it.

 

[The Dude]

...You have been acting as judge with your threats of banning posters...

The only time posters have been banned is when they don't have the self discipline to control themselves. You being one of them. Chill or take a walk. That's your last warning.

 

[kengam]

with all due respect Bryan, I have been controlling myself as well as Spearmaster.

 

[spearmaster]

Why not ask them the truth? The truth should be in their double up logs which they have refused to release. You have been acting as judge with your threats of banning posters. We are not looking for how they cheated. We are looking for whether or not this was the first and only time they cheated. Your holy code will not tell you that no matter what kind of spin you put on it.

*YOU* are presuming to speak for everyone - but you do not speak for me. You are looking for whether or not this was the first time. I am looking to see whether this was intentional or not.

This is exactly why I am not interested in your own personal issue.

And if by "judge" you mean moderator, I already removed that perceived conflict of interest. If you got banned, or threatened with a ban, it was because you deserved it and had been warned previously, usually more than once. It is NOT because I don't agree with your opinions.

Now cut out the BS. Or perhaps BOTH of us will end up on vacation.

 

[spearmaster]

with all due respect Bryan, I have been controlling myself as well as Spearmaster.

What a load of crap - you have been attacking my integrity from day one - and exactly how many times did I attack yours?

Bryan, ban us both. I don't have time for this shit. Since I am not a moderator any more I feel as if the gloves are off... LMAO...

With all due respect... what a WIMP.

 

[kengam]

With all due respect... what a WIMP.

I find that statement an attack on my character. Please ban this guy as he is really hurting my lil feelings

 

[spearmaster]

I find that statement an attack on my character. Please ban this guy as he is really hurting my lil feelings

Aw poor baby - you can dish it out but you can't even take a little tap... how do you like my omnipotence now?

 

[The Dude]

Better yet, I just locked this thread until Monday morning Central European Time.

How do you like 'dem apples?

 

[Vesuvio]

Open for business?

 

[The Dude]

Open for business?

Yes, and Spear said he probably won't have anything until Tuesday sometime at the earliest.

I'm only opening the thread back up this morning because I said I would.

 

[Vesuvio]

Yes, and Spear said he probably won't have anything until Tuesday sometime at the earliest.

I'm only opening the thread back up this morning because I said I would.

Fair enough. I think most of the considered comments here are assuming the contents of Spear's report (the code given to him would cause the results seen and might have been accidentally uploaded), so it's not going to invalidate the arguments or settle this issue - but it'll certainly be good to get it out on the table so the discussion can move on.

 

[Freudian]

Here are some questions the casino need to answer to start clearing their name. The code is pretty irrelevant since we don't even know if that was indeed the code running. And logs would be pointless since if they indeed are guilty of wrongdoing, modifying logs to cover it up would be easy.

1. Why did they issue a statement saying there was nothing wrong the day after they patched for the alleged bug?

2. Why didn't they have separate development environments for code that was going to go live and experimental code like this alleged bonus game?

3. How did this buggy code find its way into the code that went live?

4. Who made the decision to design a bonus game with a non-random card dealing and introduce it in a card game? Didn't they think it would seriously create doubt about the fairness of their card games?

5. Why didn't testing catch this?

6. How come the results for the doubling game normalized the day before the casino claimed to have automatically patched it?

7. How much has English Harbour/Vegas Technology paid Michael Shackleford in the past? How much do they pay him now?

I am sure I forgot a bunch of questions that are relevant. Feel free to add them to my list.

 

[gamemaster]

My prediction

I doubt very, very much that we're going to hear directly from the casino regarding this incident, but while it's a bit quiet here, allow me to make a prediction. I predict that Spearmaster will conclude that the non-random game was indeed caused by a software malfunction of one sort or another and I feel safe in making that prediction because Spearmaster is examining only what the casino wants him to see. He never claimed to be doing an audit, so we cannot expect him to view all of the evidence that may exist, consequently neither can we expect his report to be anything other than what the casino wants it to be.

It's like me running a contest to have you determine the next number in this series: 1, 3, 8....you don't have enough information to draw a conclusion, so any number you might offer is just a guess, plain and simple. That appears to be the case here - whatever comes out of it will probably be nothing more than a guess. An educated guess, perhaps, but a guess nonetheless.

All of what has happened to date is just smoke and mirrors to me because the casino is (or should be) desperate. The facts - facts determined by outside sources - show that the casino offered a non-random game to the public and, while they did make a reimbursement...what other choice did they really have? The other fact is that no one - not Spearmaster, not the Wizard of Odds, not me, not you - can guarantee that this will never happen again.

My problem and I hope it's the online gaming community's problem as well, is not about a software glitch, which I once again predict will be the findings here, but the fact that English Harbor Casino was allowing people to play a game that had a non-random result and they continued to offer it for a considerable period of time! As I've said before, that shows this operation did not have, at the time, any kind of internal controls to prevent such a thing happening. Why would anyone want to trust their money to such an organization?

I have a lot of respect for Spearmaster and do believe him to be strictly interested in uncovering the truth here (no matter how difficult or impossible that may be), but his flat rejection of asking for previous years' logs of the double up feature by requiring some sort of proof that there was a problem in the past just doesn't compute with me. If I were the casino boss, I'd have my staff produce that in the blink of an eye - assuming they showed the double up results in April/May were an anomaly. It just doesn't make any sense that the casino wouldn't want that data to be examined unless there's some sort of problem with it.

Yes, I understand that Spearmaster is checking only on what happened in April/May, but what happened was that the game was non-random and the reality is, it may have been non-random in the past. If it wasn't, then that might convince some people that this really was just a mistake. I don't see how the two can be separated - doubling is doubling, be it last month or last year. If your game is honest, why not show the data? Of course, if it's not honest then we all understand why you're not showing the data - what other conclusion can we draw?

I'll state my position once again at the risk of boring you all. I really don't care if this was a 'glitch' or not; the casino allowed a non-random game to be played by its customers and in this business, it's one strike and you're out. There are a lot of other choices out there who do not have 'glitches' and, in fact, have games with a lower house edge anyway. The online gambling community must stand firm with a zero-tolerance policy in matters like this or it will ultimately pay too high a price for our chosen form of entertainment.

Boycott English Harbor Casino and any other that uses OddsOn software.

GM

 

[spearmaster]

I doubt very, very much that we're going to hear directly from the casino regarding this incident, but while it's a bit quiet here, allow me to make a prediction. I predict that Spearmaster will conclude that the non-random game was indeed caused by a software malfunction of one sort or another and I feel safe in making that prediction because Spearmaster is examining only what the casino wants him to see. He never claimed to be doing an audit, so we cannot expect him to view all of the evidence that may exist, consequently neither can we expect his report to be anything other than what the casino wants it to be.

To be fair, this is not correct - I am examining what I want to see. I asked for further information which they may or may not have known I would ask for, and I received everything that I asked for without delay or explanation required.

All of what has happened to date is just smoke and mirrors to me because the casino is (or should be) desperate. The facts - facts determined by outside sources - show that the casino offered a non-random game to the public and, while they did make a reimbursement...what other choice did they really have? The other fact is that no one - not Spearmaster, not the Wizard of Odds, not me, not you - can guarantee that this will never happen again.

Unfortunately, the same stands true for any software provider.

My problem and I hope it's the online gaming community's problem as well, is not about a software glitch, which I once again predict will be the findings here, but the fact that English Harbor Casino was allowing people to play a game that had a non-random result and they continued to offer it for a considerable period of time! As I've said before, that shows this operation did not have, at the time, any kind of internal controls to prevent such a thing happening. Why would anyone want to trust their money to such an organization?

My take is that the internal controls were not good enough - probably very basic, at that.

I have a lot of respect for Spearmaster and do believe him to be strictly interested in uncovering the truth here (no matter how difficult or impossible that may be), but his flat rejection of asking for previous years' logs of the double up feature by requiring some sort of proof that there was a problem in the past just doesn't compute with me. If I were the casino boss, I'd have my staff produce that in the blink of an eye - assuming they showed the double up results in April/May were an anomaly. It just doesn't make any sense that the casino wouldn't want that data to be examined unless there's some sort of problem with it.

Not that I don't agree... if they want to cough up that information they certainly can, but I certainly don't require it for my purposes and no one has shown me any evidence that would change my mind.

Yes, I understand that Spearmaster is checking only on what happened in April/May, but what happened was that the game was non-random and the reality is, it may have been non-random in the past. If it wasn't, then that might convince some people that this really was just a mistake. I don't see how the two can be separated - doubling is doubling, be it last month or last year. If your game is honest, why not show the data? Of course, if it's not honest then we all understand why you're not showing the data - what other conclusion can we draw?

Any supplier's game could have been non-random in the past. In this case, however, if for some reason there was another event that caused a game to be non-random, it is highly unlikely that the code that caused this problem would have been involved - and I will try to show that in my report as soon as I finish cleaning up the simulation code.

Again, I thank you for your kind words. Maybe your trust is misplaced, judging by the reactions of some other people - but I know that I am sleeping comfortably at night (barring the jetlag) and without any worries that I have done the wrong thing.

 

[ftg]

Spearmaster,

To be honest, if you were the boss (shareholder or/and director) of EH/Odds On, would you ask your staff to produce logs for previous months/years?

 

[spearmaster]

Spearmaster,

To be honest, if you were the boss (shareholder or/and director) of EH/Odds On, would you ask your staff to produce logs for previous months/years?

Short answer: Yes.

Longer answer: It takes time to gather all this information, it's not like it just sits there on a server waiting to be extracted. Log files for any gaming server will be huge - and thus only a limited period of time will actually be live - for example, with Microgaming casinos you can check back 7 days. Anything more than that is probably backed up to tape drives or something of the sort - which is why it takes time for them to provide logs for any period beyond 7 days.

I presume that this same problem will be an issue here. If EH were to produce the logs, it will take some time for them to extract this information for a longer period of time, I'd imagine. I don't know how complicated this would be for them but it probably isn't as simple as running a query and getting all the results in a few seconds.

Then there's the issue of exactly WHO should be getting access to the logs - for sure they're not going to open them up to everyone.

 

[GrandMaster]

Actually, Playcheck now shows 21 days. A month has passed, this should have been enough time to dig out and analyze the logs. The full logs are obviously too big and contain commercially sensitive information, but a trusted 3rd party could analyze them and produce a report.

 

[spearmaster]

Actually, Playcheck now shows 21 days. A month has passed, this should have been enough time to dig out and analyze the logs. The full logs are obviously too big and contain commercially sensitive information, but a trusted 3rd party could analyze them and produce a report.

Just goes to show you how long it's been since I've looked at my own logs... LOL...

I'm only speculating at this point, but I don't think they exactly jumped to get out all the logs when the issue happened. If they had decided to do an internal audit, obviously they would have had all this information available by now - so I'm presuming they don't believe there's a problem from the past.

Nevertheless, this is something they can consider if they wish - I assume that they would ask the Wiz to do that analysis.

 

[nektar4d]

How long will it take?

to reach a conclusion?
It's been more than a month from the initial post and still at the same point...
This thread has become enormous and probably difficult to follow, especially if someone reads it for the 1st time. I haven't myself read the last 10 days posts, but I remember there was supposed to be a decisive meeting in Montreal in mid-May...
If it's going to take months, we may lose the forest and find just one analysis-tree

 

[thelawnet]

Just goes to show you how long it's been since I've looked at my own logs... LOL...

I'm only speculating at this point, but I don't think they exactly jumped to get out all the logs when the issue happened. If they had decided to do an internal audit, obviously they would have had all this information available by now - so I'm presuming they don't believe there's a problem from the past.

Nevertheless, this is something they can consider if they wish - I assume that they would ask the Wiz to do that analysis.

have you finished with EH now?

Is this it?

Or can we expect another statement?

 

[kengam]

This isn't it from me. English Harbour is just hoping this is forgotten. I still can't believe they didn't even issue a statement. We will not forget that is for sure.

 

[suzecat]

Spear, hope you are well.

Been toe-tapping for weeks now, being cool and waiting for some revelation from EH/Oddson that would sum up the problem and/or assure players that the casino was safe/fair. All I can take from this thread is that EH/Oddson thinks it is ok to remain silent and just weather the storm. "Do as I say, not as I do." Just deposit and lose and all is fine, no mea culpas are needed.

Spear I appreciate all your efforts to bring something to the forum by way of explanation. That was the human reaction when you knew that more info was needed. I find it regrettable that EH/Oddson hung you out to dry instead of stepping up to the plate and taking some freakin' rersponsibility for the mess that THEY CREATED.

And life goes on............will I ever play again at EH/Oddson? Probably not, well, actually, a resounding NO. Too many fair groups out there to play at one that has proven its ability to cheat/stack the odds/diss me/give me the cold shoulder/think I am stoopid/etc. etc. ad nauseum............

 

[spearmaster]

I have not been hung out to dry. But since everyone has already assumed what my findings would be, and there are more important things happening at present, I simply put everything on the back burner. And to be dead honest I'm not particularly enthused about finishing it up either since no one seems to care about the code.

So I will finish it when I finish it. I'm a bit more concerned about Jackpot Factory at the moment, along with a few other things.

And thanks for asking about me

 

[kengam]

I guess your time was wasted as I predicted. I don't see how you can say they didn't hang you out to dry. They allowed you to look helpless and come across as the lone defender of a caught cheat. This has done nothing for your credibility and nothing for EH and Odds ON's credibility. The only thing you managed to accomplish was to give them a reason to stay quiet. I am beginning to think that was your intention.

 

[Pinababy69]

They allowed you to look helpless

Spearmaster helpless? Okay.....

 

[soflat]

Now that it is all done, isn't it time for that poll?

I don't think Spearmaster's credibility was damaged.

I can't say the same for the Wizard of Odds though. I love his site, but he should stop certifying results because it was proven to be a total crock. I know he has the excuse that he would not have viewed the logs from April until May. But his statement indicated that EH and him agreed that earlier logs should be analyzed, and they both failed to follow through on that. I hate to criticize him like this because like I said I love his site (still do) and I respected his certification before this.

 

[Linus]

Spear - thanks for the work you've put into this case. While I did disagree with you - and do disagree with you - about the reliability & significance of the code they sent you, I do think you're genuinely interested in making things safer for the player.

It's just that English Harbour violated the first commandment of online gaming - it failed to provide a fair game to players. Perhaps they could have regained players' trust. But, from my point of view, they've barely made an effort.


Soflat - yeah, I have to admit, this hasn't reflected well on The Wizard. I will probably always suspect that - had EH not been one of his clients - he would have reacted differently. I suspect English Harbour would have joined the other casinos on his blacklist.

 

[spearmaster]

It's just that English Harbour violated the first commandment of online gaming - it failed to provide a fair game to players. Perhaps they could have regained players' trust. But, from my point of view, they've barely made an effort.

Naturally, I believe all games should be fair. But I also recognize the fact that shit happens - and as they provided compensation to all affected players quite quickly (unlike a couple of other casinos recently discussed) I don't think any player ended up disadvantaged by the situation.

Effort - well, I'm not going to make a call on that. Some people will say that their second statement was enough, and some people won't. And ultimately they will decide for themselves what they need to do to regain player confidence.

 

[derelict]

and as they provided compensation to all affected players quite quickly (unlike a couple of other casinos recently discussed) I don't think any player ended up disadvantaged by the situation.

After some prodding, they've dealt with the issue in April, I agree. But to me one of the most serious issues has still not been addressed at all. That is whether or not the game was fair in the past. To highlight some previous posts:

I myself about 6 months ago had a very bad loosing streak doubling in VP (but only 1 to 15000 I think, so possible).

bad enough to be 95% confident that the results were not within reasonable range. (3.5 standard deviations)

I too would have liked to see more of a response from EH/OddsOn and Mr. Shackleford. Considering the uproar over SEO tactics, I would have expected allegations of unfair gaming to be taken more seriously.

 

[kengam]

about that poll....can it be put back up?

 

[thelawnet]

Naturally, I believe all games should be fair. But I also recognize the fact that shit happens - and as they provided compensation to all affected players quite quickly (unlike a couple of other casinos recently discussed) I don't think any player ended up disadvantaged by the situation.

Effort - well, I'm not going to make a call on that. Some people will say that their second statement was enough, and some people won't. And ultimately they will decide for themselves what they need to do to regain player confidence.

The problem is that it looks like they had faulty code in place, realised, and scheduled a replacement.

This in itself is not so bad, but the fact is that they then went on to lie and say that there was nothing wrong, said that their tests showed it was fair (a false claim). It was only when they realised that the people observing would not be dazzled by their pseudo-mathematical lies that they put out the second statement.

Most people would forgive them the faulty code. Lying about there ever having been a problem, and trying to put in what was clearly a completely fabricated bullshit PR statement as coverup is absolutely not acceptable.

There is no question that their behaviour in lying about the problems with their game (which I can accept may have been accidental) should have them firmly listed as a rogue casino.

It beggars belief that other casinos, from 888.com to Grand Prive, to Jackpot Factory are listed there, whereas a casino who lied about their games being faulty is not.

As has been pointed out elsewhere, this shows that payout reports from the likes of Pricewaterhouse Coopers or Michael Shackelford's auditing service do not provide any guarantee of a true and fair game. I do not believe that the video poker doubling game was ever specifically audited, as the fact that Mr. Shackelford did not already have at his disposal logs for the previous 12 months or so shows this. The 'guarantee' is little different from a celebrity endorsement of a running shoe, and really guarantees nothing.

The only thing that can be said for them is that they did not want to go out of business by going 'underground', and just refusing to do anything or answering complaints - once they had been caught red handed and after their initial attempt at a cover-up, they did pay everyone back. The best you can say of this episode is that if you play at a mainstream casino like this, if you can prove the casino is ripping you off, you will get paid back. Those who can't prove it, you get nothing. But that's at least better than the likes of Casino Bar, where they just say 'up yours'.

Hardly an endorsement for a casino however, and I doubt that we will see this lot being endorsed by upstanding affiliates again.

 

[kengam]

It was easy to pay back the players from April when they have been using that cheat for years. They got 40k of my money prior to that and much more from others.

 

[soflat]

I do not believe that the video poker doubling game was ever specifically audited, as the fact that Mr. Shackelford did not already have at his disposal logs for the previous 12 months or so shows this. The 'guarantee' is little different from a celebrity endorsement of a running shoe, and really guarantees nothing.

I agree. I don't understand why Mr Shackleford said that he would have caught the problem in June (when he normally looks at the logs). If that were true (that he normally looks at thedouble-up) then how come he would need to go back over the old logs to see if it were unfair earlier. There is a contradiction there.

I'm guessing that he only looks at the rng and maybe overall payout percentages like Price Waterhouse. Which is totally worthless. I feel it was deceptive to say the games are fair if he never looked.

Your post pretty much summarizes how I feel about the whole situation.

 

[kengam]

vote on this issue in the new poll that is up. I assume we are allowed to have a poll now.

 

[spearmaster]

It was easy to pay back the players from April when they have been using that cheat for years. They got 40k of my money prior to that and much more from others.

Here you go spewing your nonsense again. You do NOT provide any proof that you were cheated in the first place, and you could hardly know that they have been using that cheat for years. Otherwise you might have said something YEARS ago... but no... you didn't want to expose yourself... so why are you exposing yourself now?

Is it me or is everything you are saying self-contradictory?

 

[kengam]

you may think it is nonsense. I think you are defending a lost cause. All you have to do is get hold of the past logs and you will see. I do not have them and they have refused to provide them. I am not the one who was caught cheating here. Let's just let the players decide for themselves rather than take their (your) word about it just being a bug.

 

[dirk_dangerous]

Is it me or is everything you are saying self-contradictory?

IMO, it's you Spear. You should probably drop the subject as you're looking a bit silly with your continued defense of this group of casinos.

Really, why do you continue to defend them when it is a known fact that the game was gaffed?

My advice: be silent on the issue, and let this group live or die by its own actions.

At present, there really isn't any good reason for any player to ever trust this group of casinos, or the software. There are far too many good casinos and software providers out there.

 

[henryVIII]

So, we can now say EH were cheating and effectively issued a statement which was a huge lie, on this very forum.

So what happens to casinos that are caught cheating and dont even offer any denial themselves (except the discredited 'audit' one)?

 

[kengam]

has EH been blacklisted or rogued anywhere? Bryan has tarred others for much less. If EH isn't rogued then I guess we shouldn't take any stock in that section of this forum.

 

[The Dude]

has EH been blacklisted or rogued anywhere? Bryan has tarred others for much less. If EH isn't rogued then I guess we shouldn't take any stock in that section of this forum.

Give me a friggin' break will ya. I was on leave for for two and a half weeks. I got back late Sunday eve, and I have a ton of crap to take care of.

I'll deal with this when I get to it if you don't mind. I have a number of other things to deal with that take precedence over this believe it or not.

By the way, the "Rogue Secction" is not a part of the forum.

 

[kengam]

sheesh. relax man. This is not a new event that happened only while you were gone. Whatever

 

[henryVIII]

It definately happened sometime this year because i remember reading it on the first sunny day of the year. I had to rearrange my monitor for the first time because of glare through the window.

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