Kahna-whacky?

[thelawnet]

At the end of the player's panel at the LAC today, the Kahnawake 'enforcer' (this might not be his exact job title) came rushing up because I'd mentioned that I thought that Kahnawake was a bum jurisdiction. He was a pretty intense guy.

I told him that my one experience with KGC was that they ignored my issue, and he should expect people to form lasting impressions based on such experiences. He didn't seem too impressed by this and told me they are Real Regulator, not just somewhere to send your $10k/year in return for a piece of paper.

Anyway, he assured me that they've improved since <I contacted them>/<the last couple of years>/<they introduced Ecogra testing>/<insert your own date point here>, and that operators have to respond within 48 hours, and that if I have any problems in future, I should contact them right away.

Their Ecogra announcement is here:

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I couldn't help but ask how negotiations with the UK Gambling Commission were going - not too well it seems. I guess now they have a motivation to act like proper regulator, to get them access to the British market. I would be interested to hear if anyone gets the opportunity to test them out.

 

[LOOKAWAY]

Was the enforcer South African?

 

[Roanan]

Was the enforcer South African?

The Kahnawake (Kanienkeh) Nation, called Mohawks by Europeans, starts in Quebec and stretches south through to New York State.

They were the guardians of the Iroquois Confederation and were known to be among the fiercest of warriors.

Most of them had incredible physiques and were imposing figures, so I would expect that KGC use their own people for enforcement.


In regards to the OP, although they have had a history of slow response and apparent apathy towards player concerns, they have indeed improved a great deal and are now one of the best.

The reasons do have something to do with eCogra's involvement, but also because they are in an ongoing battle with the Government of Canada with treaty and status issues, in addition to their operation of online poker sites and casinos.

It is legal for independent First Nations' to operate gaming facilities in their home territories and it is hoped that the feds will finally relent and officially extend that to include online operations.

When/if this does become a reality, it will give KGC the official government recognition that will allow them to become THE online gaming authority.

 

[Pinababy69]

In regards to the OP, although they have had a history of slow response and apparent apathy towards player concerns, they have indeed improved a great deal and are now one of the best.

Eh? LOL...that post sounded like a PR release Roanan. Are you basing your above statement on anything concrete? I haven't kept up on things like I used to....but how have they suddenly become an amazing dispute resolution service for players? Just wondering what I've missed, and why players should feel "safe" playing at an establishment licensed by Kahnawake? What do they offer?

 

[Roanan]

Eh? LOL...that post sounded like a PR release Roanan. Are you basing your above statement on anything concrete? I haven't kept up on things like I used to....but how have they suddenly become an amazing dispute resolution service for players? Just wondering what I've missed, and why players should feel "safe" playing at an establishment licensed by Kahnawake? What do they offer?

This isn't the only forum I belong to, and the poker forums have shown a progression through time of when they were bad, to how they are responding today.

 

[LinkinFart]

Long one, I know

Kahnawake may not be the brightest star in existence but certainly arent the worst. They showed some improvement lately, for starters their complaint page is now functioning as it should. I don`t know why is this all happening but from what I have learned first hand, although in silence, issues I presented were resolved. When I say in silence I mean operator with which I had issues suddenly starts accepting my reasoning, which was good from the beginning, and offers some compensation or deal with the issue promptly.

Another thing, from experience again, KGC license agreement looks great on paper compared to those of Isle of man, not to mention Cyberluck and similar, and there are numerous clauses that protect player and also give player certain rights. When I called upon some of those rights given to players by KGC license, support of some establishment with which I had issues might give negative response in the beginning when communicating through email, but I noticed biggest change in behaviour from support stuff on live chat after insisting on those "rights".

For example, I asked certain Playtech operator for slots history with all the data on spins in some readable format txt,doc, (this was some time ago) and received negative response not once but several times. Answers like, we don`t have them and when I told them that this is non sense and that they must have them they told me they cannot export those histories to file because software they use does not have this option. Then I sent them email saying that this is non sense too that they must have this option and in 3rd attempt (3rd attempt since they told me that they cant export it to file) I got answer saying that they are not obliged to give me that info and that it would compromise their security. I sent them another request telling them how much nonsense this entire thing is and started quoting KGC license agreement. In first email after I started quoting KGC I noticed slight change, their first response was something like (have everything archived if someone wants specifics) "Yes we have histories but at this moment we are unable to send them to you". Notice the change in terminology, from "we cant" they changed to "we are unable". At this point I knew I`ll get them and started wondering what will they come up with next. Then they started repeating for couple of times this unable excuse till I demanded to speak with Key manager.

I don`t know how many of you have read KGC license agreement but there is Key manager in every establishment licensed by KGC, 2 of them if i remember correctly, and they are the ones that can lose the most if they are found not to be doing their job. They get manager salaries for start but they also have to pay for licensing, around 10K and if im right annual fees to KGC. Also if they have been found quilty of foul play or not doing their job, which is mostly comprised of overseeing that everything is done according to the license agreement, they can never again be involved with any establishment licensed by KGC.

After that, one more email which said something like our manager is not currently available and is there something with which they can help me, like I was speaking to somebody else from the beginning, I asked them again for slot histories in a file with every single piece of data about every spin, times, combinations etc., and I finally got an answer that they will send them to me but that they need some time to export them. I can live with that as long as you send them and I did receive them after 3 days plus more than 1 week of emailing and talking to live support, which also had some really nice answers like at one point "yes we do" and at the next "no we don`t". Default Playtech live chat, "We are here to help you with deposit, basic help, but don`t ask us for anything else". Let me just say that I did not ask for those slots histories only to check payout percentages and this must have been the reason for their denial at first and this was from one of the bigger operators on Playtech.

There are other situations where I have succesfully "claimed" my rights as player in KGC licensed establishments but this one was most difficult which did produce result without the need to contact KGC directly at all. From combined experience I noticed that KGC licensees are showing respect to KGC. Nothing like, for example, Cyberluck licensees which don`t give a diddly squat about Cyberluck and one should be lucky to get anything resolved, its entirely up to operator itself.

just my 0.02 SKK on KGC, personally I don`t dislike them at all.

 

[jetset]

There's definitely a big drive to improve ongoing at the KGC.

I had an interesting meeting with the chairman Dean Montour and ceo Murray Marshall at ICEi Thursday and they answered questions openly and briefed me on the moves that have taken place, and those that are being introduced (you can see the detail in the InfoPowa reports on Day 3 ICEi and under this week's Casinomeister News.)

They've retained as an adviser someone for whom I have the greatest respect as a professional manager of considerable integrity, and she has revved up their player dispute activities and is playing an active role in ensuring that player complaints are properly and fairly handled.

Other measures are designed to be more communicative and tighten up compliance and acceptance through using the eCOGRA professional compliance teams.

Apparently the majority of the licensees have bought into the need for a better system, and have been consulted and involved during the revision initiative.

I commented to these two gentlemen (whom appeared pretty committed to this program when I spoke with them) that history dictates that they still have a credibility hill to climb, and they accepted that the proof of the pudding would be in the eating as things move forward.

And by the way, they are now monitoring selected message boards and blogs, including this one.

Regarding motivation, there has been a lot of speculation and I put several of the possible reasons to them.

They said that the need for drastic change was self-evident to them when they reviewed the UB-AB issue in its entirety. Some Cdn$22 million finally found its way back to players, and there were fines and other punitive and monitoring measures imposed...yet that still left room for future preventative measures.

They pointed out that they had also handed over a significant amount of information on the debacle to the Quebec police who were still investigating the affair.

On speculation that either the Canadian federal government or the Quebec provincial government was leaning on them, I was told that this was not in fact the case, and that after 11 years the Mohawks still control online gambling matters within the boundaries of their First Nation sovereignty.

Time will tell if this is a genuine and sustained initiative; I for one hope that it will be, because a more regulatory KGC means a lower liklihood of bad operators, and a better system for looking after player interests.

In any sizeable initiative like this there will inevitably be slips between cup and lips, but if the central commitment and systems are in place these should at best be temporary.

I'm feeling reasonably optimistic that things are looking more positive here now - but we'll see how it goes.

 

[Simmo!]

I met a lady at ICE who has recently been employed to help Kahnawake with player disputes and this person comes with a wealth of industry experience and an excellent reputation. I was pleasantly surprised to find she is now involved so they are definitely moving in the right direction.

 

[Pinababy69]

Thank you everyone for the replies. This is really good news, and one that "could" be a huge boost for the industry. Can't wait to see how things pan out.

Jetset, any feelings on Malta now? I read the Infopowa report...but your personal feelings? Do you think they might make a move in the right direction as well?

 

[jetset]

I have been trying to work through my thoughts on the talk with the LGA chief, mainly because I want to be fair and I am still grappling with some subjectively negative feelings.

To be honest, I came away from the meeting feeling frustrated and a little flat, because although the guy was polite and is undoubtedly an efficient administrator who is making improvements, I had the feeling that I just hadn't reached him with the player perspective, and that transparency remains a real issue.

I emphasise that my feelings on this are mainly subjective, as he listened politely, but I just had that feeling that what I had to say was not being taken aboard and, worse still, that he did not have a particular affinity for the player angle.

That sounds harsh, I know, but after two days of reflection on the interview that's still my gut feel.

He was much more alive and interested when talking about the improvements to administration and the speed with which licensing applications were being turned around - that really lit him up.

And he was proud of the three hundred and fifty something licenses they have on the books and the fact that they had pulled 30 of them in the last few months, although he would not expand on what for and how many actual operators were involved...allegedly for legal reasons.

He used the same excuse for not disclosing how many player disputes they had handled, and how many of those were resolved in favour of the player.

Now if eCOGRA can do that on a regular basis I don't see why Malta or for that matter any regulator professing to handle player disputes with licensees can't emulate them.

When I asked if he had a direct channel into the LGA for player disputes, he said that all licensees were required to have a complaints facility on their sites for players, which doesn't really address the question imo.

He did say he had a couple of people handling disputes, but he wasn't specific, didn't seem particularly fired up on this aspect and I just had the feeling the shutters had come down.

When I raised the issue of player complaint emails being ignored, he gave the standard corporate stonewalling response of "let me have the details of specific cases and I will look into it", which on the face of it is a fair enough response.

On the positive side, they are at least interested enough to monitor the main message boards, although that may be defensive rather than proactive.

I'm going to be briefly in Malta this coming week before returning to base, and I will make another attempt to press these issues if I can find the time in my business schedule and they are up for it, but my general feeling was that players are not the LGA's main priority at present.

 

[maxd]

I have to say a word here on this: like Simmo and Jetset we too met with the Kahnawake peeps and so far the signs are very good that real and serious change (for the better!) is happening with them and their plans to handle player disputes. Of course it's results that matter but I'm cautiously hopeful that they will follow through on their new commitments. If they do we're all in for some pleasant surprises.

I believe Bryan will have more to say in his ICE report which I'm sure he's already working on.

 

[uungy]

The LGA have basically become dormant. They do not respond to players issues. When they do, they just send you an email "we are looking into the issue", but then never actually do any follow up what so ever.

About a year and a half ago, I think, I had an issue, and they were very good at the time, however they seem to have gone down the long slippery slope.

 

[thelawnet]

The LGA have basically become dormant. They do not respond to players issues. When they do, they just send you an email "we are looking into the issue", but then never actually do any follow up what so ever.

About a year and a half ago, I think, I had an issue, and they were very good at the time, however they seem to have gone down the long slippery slope.

Unlike the Mohawks, Malta has no reason to change to get access to the UK because they are already here. Sadly.

 

[uungy]

How are they included already?

 

[thelawnet]

How are they included already?

Malta is a part of the EU, and hence it would be illegal under EU competition law for the UK to exclude them.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Malta is a part of the EU, and hence it would be illegal under EU competition law for the UK to exclude them.

Perhaps not

I believe the European court said that member states CAN bar certain movements of free trade if this was for consumer protection. This came out of the actions taken against those EU states that tried to protect their state monopolies on online gambling, and they won this PARTIAL victory that would allow them to block online gambling for the protection of consumers. This would enable the UK to ban licencees from Malta from advertising in the UK if the LGA did not provide a proper standard of player protection to consumers. Whether the UK would bother is a different matter, but other countries might see this as another opportunity to attempt to protect their state monopolies from competition from Malta licensed operations.

 

[Pinababy69]

I have been trying to work through my thoughts on the talk with the LGA chief, mainly because I want to be fair and I am still grappling with some subjectively negative feelings.

To be honest, I came away from the meeting feeling frustrated and a little flat, because although the guy was polite and is undoubtedly an efficient administrator who is making improvements, I had the feeling that I just hadn't reached him with the player perspective, and that transparency remains a real issue.

I emphasise that my feelings on this are mainly subjective, as he listened politely, but I just had that feeling that what I had to say was not being taken aboard and, worse still, that he did not have a particular affinity for the player angle.

That sounds harsh, I know, but after two days of reflection on the interview that's still my gut feel.

He was much more alive and interested when talking about the improvements to administration and the speed with which licensing applications were being turned around - that really lit him up.

And he was proud of the three hundred and fifty something licenses they have on the books and the fact that they had pulled 30 of them in the last few months, although he would not expand on what for and how many actual operators were involved...allegedly for legal reasons.

He used the same excuse for not disclosing how many player disputes they had handled, and how many of those were resolved in favour of the player.

Now if eCOGRA can do that on a regular basis I don't see why Malta or for that matter any regulator professing to handle player disputes with licensees can't emulate them.

When I asked if he had a direct channel into the LGA for player disputes, he said that all licensees were required to have a complaints facility on their sites for players, which doesn't really address the question imo.

He did say he had a couple of people handling disputes, but he wasn't specific, didn't seem particularly fired up on this aspect and I just had the feeling the shutters had come down.

When I raised the issue of player complaint emails being ignored, he gave the standard corporate stonewalling response of "let me have the details of specific cases and I will look into it", which on the face of it is a fair enough response.

On the positive side, they are at least interested enough to monitor the main message boards, although that may be defensive rather than proactive.

I'm going to be briefly in Malta this coming week before returning to base, and I will make another attempt to press these issues if I can find the time in my business schedule and they are up for it, but my general feeling was that players are not the LGA's main priority at present.

Thanks so much for that Jetset....that's exactly what I wanted to know. Not the press release, but how you felt personally after your meeting. I trust your gut, lol....and you probably should too, if that's what it's telling you. I appreciate your honesty in that post.

So it looks like two steps forward for Kahnawake, and one step further back for Malta/the LGA...at this point anyway. Will be interesting to watch the coming year, and see what changes are actually implemented, and what forward progress is made.

Regarding the comment you made in your previous post in this thread, it would appear that Kahnawake are indeed monitoring the forum, as I saw their counsel on the forum a few times over the weekend...reading this thread, and searching other threads. That can only be a good thing, and will serve to get them more "in touch" with players, and player issues.

 

[uungy]

Whatever the case, I think it would be beneficial for forumers and especially the UK'ers to contact the UK gambling authority

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explaining the need for the LGA to be delisted unless some considerable action is taken.

This probably can start one of the most strongest licensing available, if anyone is scared of being de-listed by the UK authority

 

[The Dude]

Just to throw my two pfennings in - I was very impressed with what I saw concerning Kahnawake. Finally, they seem to be taking a proactive move towards being a responsive and effective gaming commission RE: player issues.

In the next few months ahead, we'll be seeing these changes being made. I certainly have faith that they are in it for the long term.

I guess I can't say Kahna-haha-wake anymore

As for Malta - I'm with jetset

 

[Pinababy69]

I guess I can't say Kahna-haha-wake anymore

As for Malta - I'm with jetset

I almost posted that as well re: the ha ha thing, lol. It's become almost habit after all these years. But it's awesome news to hear they are really moving in a forward direction.

Re: Malta....very bad news, especially given the fact that so many casinos are licensed there.

Thanks everyone for the info, and replies in the thread. When you can't attend these things...it's great to get that first hand experience relayed to you. And really, it IS good news overall.

 

[uungy]

Perhaps not

I believe the European court said that member states CAN bar certain movements of free trade if this was for consumer protection. This came out of the actions taken against those EU states that tried to protect their state monopolies on online gambling, and they won this PARTIAL victory that would allow them to block online gambling for the protection of consumers. This would enable the UK to ban licencees from Malta from advertising in the UK if the LGA did not provide a proper standard of player protection to consumers. Whether the UK would bother is a different matter, but other countries might see this as another opportunity to attempt to protect their state monopolies from competition from Malta licensed operations.

Just been in contact with the Gambling Commission, and seems they are already accepted (the LGA) and knowing all the processes, its probably near to impossible to explain to them that the LGA is not a regulating body.

I think pressure should be put on to the gambling commission, which hopefully would then be looked into

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[jetset]

I'm on Malta at present but no further progress made.

I believe Uungy's suggestion above has some merit - if enough complaints are made about Malta's white listing in spite of its lack of player sensitivity, the Commission will sit up and take notice - but we're talking more than two or three complaints here imo.

 

[AussieDave]

They've retained as an adviser someone for whom I have the greatest respect as a professional manager of considerable integrity, and she has revved up their player dispute activities and is playing an active role in ensuring that player complaints are properly and fairly handled.

hmmm...me thinks this could be none other than Micki O.

If that's the case, KGC is moving in the right direction.

From my dealings with this lady for many years, she would not align herself with an outfit that was not sincere in its vision.

More importantly she also ran a MGS casino that was licensed at KGC. If anyone, she's had hands on knowledge of the KGC operations & its problematic issues over the years.

If Micki is this person at the helm, I would confidently state that all player complaints will be handled fairly at all times.

For the want of a better word...This lady does not put up with BS

Cheers



Dave

 

[Pinababy69]

hmmm...me thinks this could be none other than Micki O.

If that's the case, KGC is moving in the right direction.

From my dealings with this lady for many years, she would not align herself with an outfit that was not sincere in its vision.

More importantly she also ran a MGS casino that was licensed at KGC. If anyone, she's had hands on knowledge of the KGC operations & its problematic issues over the years.

If Micki is this person at the helm, I would confidently state that all player complaints will be handled fairly at all times.

For the want of a better word...This lady does not put up with BS

Cheers



Dave

You gotta get out more Dave.

You are spot on the money....and I wholeheartedly agree with you. Super choice by them I'd say.

NEW DAWN FOR KAHNAWAKE GAMING COMMISSION?

Canadian regulator takes positive steps to improve

There have been rumours for months about a new-look Kahnawake Gaming Commission emerging as the regulator discussed the future with its licensee operators in an industry where there is a growing demand for real regulatory compliance.

The first official confirmation that a new approach was in progress was the announcement during the ICEi week by the KGC that it had appointed the independent player protection and standards body eCOGRA to carry out compliance testing and ongoing monitoring on its licensees (see previous InfoPowa report).

There was further evidence as the KGC manned an exhibition stand and fielded a powerful delegation that included livewire chairman Dean Montour and general legal counsel Murray Marshall.

The duo met and freely discussed their future plans with industry leaders and opinion formers from all sectors.

With them was Micki Oster, a highly respected industry veteran who made a significant reputation for herself as the general manager of what was at that time two of the most popular and trusted online casino groups on the Internet the Sunny and Trident groups.

Oster’s legendary sense of fair play and player sensitivity made her many friends in the player community, and her business professionalism was reflected in the success of the companies she managed back then.

Oster’s involvement became clear this week; she has been retained as a consultant to advise the KGC on improvements to player relationship activities, including the timeous and fair handling of player disputes with Kahnawake licensed operators, for which she will responsible, liaising with operators and the KGC board directly.

“In terms of the KGC regulations, operators have 7 days to respond to an enquiry, after which a further three days on final warning are allowed. After that, the issue goes before the KGC board and drastic penalties can be levied in terms of licensing suspension and fines, Oster told InfoPowa.

Dean Montour, chairman of the KGC, said he had full confidence in Oster’s impartiality, experience and integrity, and she had the full support of the board.

 

[AussieDave]

You gotta get out more Dave.

Hi Pina, I get myself into enough trouble online. Imagine letting me loose elsewhere


Cheers



Dave

 

[uungy]

I'm on Malta at present but no further progress made.

I believe Uungy's suggestion above has some merit - if enough complaints are made about Malta's white listing in spite of its lack of player sensitivity, the Commission will sit up and take notice - but we're talking more than two or three complaints here imo.

I am not sure how many you would need. I dont think its the numbers, I think its the proof that they are non respondant, and its for "consumer protection" they should not be an accepted license

 

[Pinababy69]

Hi Pina, I get myself into enough trouble online. Imagine letting me loose elsewhere


Cheers



Dave

Oh dear....how well I relate to that, lol.

 

[Pinababy69]

Thought I'd browse the Kahnawake site, both the main site and the Gaming Commission site. Came across a couple of interesting things.

The first was that the Province of Quebec has decided to venture into online gaming, and is going to open an establishment offering a casino, poker and "other games of chance". I'm interested mainly because I'd like to see what software they decide to use. I hope it's not like the Harrah's (or was it Caesar's) venture, that is nothing more than an 888 clone (using Dragonfish software). Microgaming or RTG would be good, lol.

The article for anyone interested (especially from Canada):

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Mohawk Council of Kahnaw:ke responds to Qubec's announcement that Loto-Qubec will develop online gaming

02/05/2010

On Wednesday February 3, 2010 the Qubec Minister of Finance, Raymond Bachand, announced that the government of Qubec has authorized Loto-Qubec to offer online gaming and games of chance. The Minister's press release, as well as comments attributed to him in the media, seem to imply that the Loto-Qubec initiative will negatively impact Kahnaw:ke and the initiatives it has taken in the online gaming industry over the past 12 years.

Minister Bachand either does not understand how the online gaming industry works - or is simply using the opportunity to take a gratuitous swipe at Kahnaw:ke for his own political reasons.

Loto-Qubec has been authorized to "offer online gambling" and will therefore become another online gaming operator offering casino, poker and other games of chance. Loto-Qubec will therefore be competing with other established online gaming operators such as: PokerStars, Party Gaming, Full Tilt Poker and Ultimate Bet. Many of these operators are licensed by and operate from jurisdictions such as Isle of Man, Gibraltar and Alder nay. Even for those online gaming operators that are licensed by and operate from Kahnaw:ke, it is difficult to understand how Loto-Quebec's late and limited entry into the market will negatively affect - let alone "cannibalize" - these sites.

Cont'd at above link...

The second thing that caught my eye was on the Gaming Commission part of the site. I was just browsing the pages, and checked out the link for Players. I have to say that it all seems very well written, and the guidelines seem spot on the money. I especially appreciated the fact that they claim to take the whole "responsible gambling" issue quite seriously....both underage and problem gambling.

A link to the page, and a quoted copy of their policies for players:

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The Commission's primary function is to provide for the protection of players who choose to participate in the online gaming offered by the Commission's permit holders. The Commission uses a variety of means to ensure that:

interactive gaming is conducted responsibly, fairly and honestly; and
the operators of interactive games treat players fairly;

that they pay winners promptly and that all information related to player accounts is held in the strictest confidence.

In addition, a variety of mechanisms are provided in the Commission's Regulations concerning Interactive Gaming for the protection of persons under the full age of eighteen (18) years and for persons who are vulnerable to the risks that are associated with gaming. For example, the Regulations provide that:

gaming sites must provide a mechanism by which a player has the ability to limit his or her play - including setting the limit to zero;

a person who is close to a player (eg. family member) may apply to the Commission for an order prohibiting gaming sites from accepting bets or wagers from that player;

the relationship between the operator, a gaming site and players must be contractual and must not contain terms that are unfair or unreasonable;

gaming sites must take adequate measures to protect the confidentiality of player information; and rules of play must be clearly posted in English and any other such language as may be appropriate.

The Commission Regulations also provide a number of dispute resolution mechanisms to address player complaints - including the possibility of third party arbitration. In fact, the Commission's staff includes a full time Dispute Resolution Officer to ensure that all player complaints are addressed in a timely way.

If they actually hold their licensees to these regulations, I see good things all around.

 

[maxd]

Great post Pina! I strongly suspected there was a Canadian side to the "Kahnawake II" story and I think this may be a good part of it.

As many of you probably know, Quebec and Kahnawake have long tussled over jurisdictional issues of all sorts. Having known Quebec politics first hand I can easily see that their getting into gaming is the beginning of a push by Quebec against sovereignty claims of Kahnawake in the gaming area. It's difficult to imagine how this is going to play out over time but then clear-sighted long-term planning has seldom been a prominent feature of Quebec provincial politics.

 

[jetset]

The friction between the two parties imo comes through in the Kahnawake statement, which the KGC has distributed quite widely following the news stories on the Loto Quebec intention to venture online with other forms of gambling.

Certainly it appears that the potentially major synergy that could be achieved by working together has so far eluded the KGC and Quebec authorities.

The Quebec " liberalisation" is being done in conjunction with the BC and Atlantic provincial loteries btw, and it has the potential to be a significant breakthrough in Canadian provincial government (and maybe federal government too) thinking.

Casinomeister News has been following the Quebec moves for some weeks.

 

[maxd]

Certainly it appears that the potentially major synergy that could be achieved by working together has so far eluded the KGC and Quebec authorities.

Quebec has ever had a difficult relationship with the native councils that attempt to pursue their own financial and economic destinies, especially if they happen to arm themselves, claim sovereignty, and deny unilateral access to Quebec law enforcement. This goes way, way back and although the friction hasn't produced much heat recently you can be sure the underlying issues are still there and still have the potential to heat things up very quickly.

In other words missing an opportunity to "work together" is pretty much par for the course. This is especially true since one of those two parties has a strong tendency to interpret "work together" as "oh goody, you've surrendered".

 

[jetset]

Judging by the tone of the latest Mohawk Council of the Kahnawake statement there's not much love lost on either side, with some pretty abrasive criticism and references to past political 'statements of mutual understanding and respect.'

QUOTE

"Loto-Quebecs online gambling operation could be hosted from Mohawk Internet Technologies. The Regie could work with the Kahnawake Gaming Commission to harmonise their regulations concerning online gaming. UNQUOTE.

The statement draws attention to the pledges that Quebec made to Kahnawake in the October 15, 1998 Statement of Understanding and Mutual Respect.

This statement says in part, Kahnawake and Quebec further agree to participate as partners in some of Kahnawakes economic development ventures. Quebec also agrees to develop financial and fiscal arrangements that would provide for Kahnawakes long term economic stability.

And this was apparently reinforced in June 2009 when Quebec Premier Jean Charest and MCK Grand Chief Michael Delisle Jr., signed a further Statement of Understanding and Mutual Respect that was designed to improve intergovernmental relations and establish economic partnerships between Kahnawake and Quebec.

But in practical terms it is strange that more dialogue is not taking place when there are potential benefits for both sides.

 

[maxd]

... not much love lost on either side....

That pretty much sums it up. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if part of the present activity from Kahnawake re: the new Dispute Resolution Officer (or whatever they're calling it) is a move by them to scoop the initiative. If they're successful that could leave the province playing catch-up, which I'm sure wouldn't trouble the Kahnawake people too much.

 

[Pinababy69]

First Public Test for Kahnawake

Well, we didn't have to wait too long for Kahnawake to be put to the test. Sorry for the cross posting Max and Bryan...but I posted this in another unrelated thread in Online Casinos. I just now updated myself on the situation at the GPWA, where it's been posted about....and realized the tie to Kahnawake. Here's my original post, which gives a very brief synopsis of the situation. I'll link to the thread at the GPWA, in case anyone wants the full details, and to read Casino Rewards replies on the issue.

Hey CBG, I bet you're talking about the guy who played at Casino Rewards right? Deposited and claimed the SUB of $100, and read the BONUS terms and conditions. But lo and behold, Casino Rewards had the term about only being allowed to bet 25% of your initial bonus amount, HIDDEN at the very bottom of the GENERAL terms and conditions. What possible reason could they have for not clearly displaying that particular condition, under the bonus terms and conditions, which the normal player would read when USING A BONUS?

So, now they've confiscated the players 10K winnings, standing steadfastly by their claim that the player should have read all the terms upon claiming the bonus. Rightly so, but it's also the casino's responsibility to act in a forthright, and honest manner. And not hide terms relative to a specific promotion, on a page not specific to that promo. Makes no sense. Belle Rock did the very same thing a couple years back. When asked about it, their lawyers told them they were covered, as long as the term was there. Didn't matter where it was, as long as it was on their website. I guess players should have lawyers as well going through every page, and every term on every page...before they make a deposit, or claim a bonus.

So...I'll tell you what I think Casinobonusguy. It stinks to high heaven. And if Casino Rewards were accredited here, I'd be signing up at the GPWA and advising that player to PAB. And also campaigning to get Bryan to get them to put the bloody term where it belongs...WITH the specific bonus terms.

Never played at Casino Rewards, I've read too many instances of shitty treatment of other players. But if I did, I'd be closing my accounts ASAP. Shady IMO, no other way to describe a practice like this.

A link to the thread at the GPWA:

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After just now reading the last few pages of the thread, the affected player has posted there (Hans). He has said that he has filed a complaint/dispute with Kahnawake, and someone else mentioned that they claim to have a seven day turnaround on disputes.

So I for one, am very anxious to see the outcome of this, and how Micki will handle it. I fear that she may side with the casino, and say that as long as the term is present ANYWHERE on the website, it's up to the player to read everything. I still say it's deceptive.

Let's see how it plays out.

 

[thelawnet]

Well, we didn't have to wait too long for Kahnawake to be put to the test. Sorry for the cross posting Max and Bryan...but I posted this in another unrelated thread in Online Casinos. I just now updated myself on the situation at the GPWA, where it's been posted about....and realized the tie to Kahnawake. Here's my original post, which gives a very brief synopsis of the situation. I'll link to the thread at the GPWA, in case anyone wants the full details, and to read Casino Rewards replies on the issue.



A link to the thread at the GPWA:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

After just now reading the last few pages of the thread, the affected player has posted there (Hans). He has said that he has filed a complaint/dispute with Kahnawake, and someone else mentioned that they claim to have a seven day turnaround on disputes.

The guy told me 48 hours.

 

[maxd]

From what we heard from the Kahnawake guys at ICE the 7 days number is more realistic. I'm sure they can respond within 48 hours -- as in "we have received your issue" -- but as I understand it the decision making is done at a weekly meeting of the council so ... a week seems the better estimate.

 

[maxd]

It seems I may have assumed wrong. This just in from Micki, the Dispute Management person at Kahnawake:

I acknowledge receipt any query or complaint within a maximum of 24 hours. As stated in our regulations we allow a permit holder up to 7 days to respond to a query or complaint. Sometimes, the response results in an immediate resolution or closure of a case, but many times it is the start of a discussion from which a final ruling will be made. As we both know this can take consideably longer depending on the complexity of the case.

[Quoted with permission]

 

[Pinababy69]

Ruling from the KGC

Well, there may be hope yet for this industry, and for Kahnawake. They have released their ruling, and because the player himself chose to make it public...have also made their ruling public.

The player will get 50% of his winnings (5K Euro) deposited back into his casino account, which can be withdrawn. Given the fact that the player DID contravene the T&C's, this is a fair ruling IMO. It does NOT excuse the fact that the casino HID the most important term on a page not specifically related to that bonus. So, I think...fair for all. And Casino Rewards has been instructed to clarify/modify their terms as well.

Link to the ruling:

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Should be able to download the PDF file...if not, I can copy and paste the decision here. Well done Micki et al.

 

[BingoT]

The public ruling for all that can't view it.

P.O. Box 1799
Mohawk Territory of Kahnawake
Quebec, Canada J0L1B0
Telephone +1 450 635 1076 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting**************+1 450 635 1076******end_of_the_skype_highlighting
Facsimile +1 450 635 1139
Direct email: [email protected]
TO: Hans Niemz
UK Casino Club
FROM: Micki Oster, Dispute Resolution Officer
DATE: Wednesday, February 17, 2010
RE: Hans Niemz complaint against UK Casino Club
As the Commissions Dispute Resolution Officer, I have had numerous communications with the complainant, Hans Niemz, and with UKCasinoClub (the Casino) concerning a complaint lodged by Mr. Niemz against the Casino.
We have now finally completed our investigation into this complaint and are prepared to direct Mr. Niemz complaint be resolved as follows.
We have taken several factors into consideration in reaching our decision in this matter.
Clause 13 of the Casinos Terms & Conditions (the T&C) states as follows:
The Casino reserves the right to withhold any withdrawals and/or confiscate all winnings for irregular play. 'Irregular play' includes but is not limited to any one or more of the following types of play:
i. Placing single bets equal to or in excess of 25% or more of the value of the bonus credited to the account prior to the play - through requirement for that bonus having been met;
ii. Using the double-up feature to increase bet values;
iii. Even money bets on Sic Bo, Craps and Roulette
Mr. Niemz specifically accepted the Casinos T&C, including Clause 13, at the time he registered his account.
After registering his account, Mr. Niemz engaged in a pattern of play that breached Clause 13(i). Mr. Niemz does not dispute this fact.
Mr. Niemz dispute centres on the argument that, at the relevant time, some additional terms and conditions that were posted on the Casinos site regarding signup bonuses (the
2
Terms and Conditions - Multiple Bonus Promotion) did not clearly incorporate the provisions of the Casinos T&C.
However, given the fact that Mr. Niemz did accept the T&C and that his pattern of play subsequently breached Clause 13(i) of the T&C, we cannot conclude that it is reasonable to direct the Casino to reimburse Mr. Niemz for 100% of the amount of the disputed amount 10,000 Euro.
We do accept that the Casino must bear some responsibility for failing to make it clear that the Terms and Conditions - Multiple Bonus Promotion incorporated the provisions of the Casinos T&C.
In view of the foregoing, we hereby direct that:
1. The Casino must, on or before 8:00 p.m ET on February 18, 2010, deposit 50% of the disputed amount i.e. 5,000 Euro into Mr. Neimz account and permit him to withdraw this amount, and
2. The Casino must immediately amend its Terms and Conditions - Multiple Bonus Promotion to clearly indicate that they incorporate the provisions of the T&C.
Given that Mr. Niemz previously chose to make his dispute with the Casino a public matter, we do not consider the terms of this decision to be confidential.
The Commissions file in this matter is now closed.
KAHNAWAKE GAMING COMMISSION
Per: Micki Oster, Dispute Resolution Officer

 

[Pinababy69]

Bumping so that discussion ongoing in the Realplayer/CasinoClub thread re: Kahnawake, can continue here.

 

[jetset]

KAHNAWAKE PUBLISHES PLAYER DISPUTE STATS

Licensing jurisdiction shares information.

The Kahnawake Gaming Commission built on its more open and player-sensitive policies this week with the inaugural release of player dispute statistics over the past year.

After years of criticism for lacking player sensitivity and bad communications, the Commission last year refocused and restructured its efforts as one of the industry's biggest licensing jurisdictions, and the results of the significant change in approach are now becoming more obvious.

In order to address the important issue of providing a fair player-disputes channel, the KGC engaged Micki Oster, a respected former operator of integrity, to advise it and operate an unbiased dispute resolution service linking players with KGC-licensed operators.

This week the KGC published Oster's first annual report on its website, illustrating its commitment to a more communicative and transparent policy.

The report can be viewed in full here:

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, but highlights include:

* Over the year 2010, 607 complaints were filed, of which 169 were screened out due to no KGC jurisdiction etc.

* With 17 disputes still active as the year ended, 421 had been resolved - 228 or 54.6 percent in favour of the player. 148 (45.8 percent) complaints were found to be without foundation after extensive investigation.

* October and November were the busiest months for complaints.

* Main causes for complaints were: Locked Accounts - 81; Slow-No pay - 173; Fairness issues - 105; Miscellaneous - 62.

 

[LinkinFart]

Your post jetset made me look to previous posts and that Hans related ruling.

I`m speechless. Really. They`ve been high on my personal list of jurisdictions but I think this puts them at the very top. I really wonder what the ruling would have been by any other regulatory body. Speechless. :notworthy

 

[jetset]

Over a year ago (at post #7 in this thread, I wrote the following:

"Time will tell if this is a genuine and sustained initiative; I for one hope that it will be, because a more regulatory KGC means a lower liklihood of bad operators, and a better system for looking after player interests."

That was after discussing the turnaround initiative at the KGC with its main drivers, and I have to say that since then I have seen more responsiveness and more transparency than at any other time previously from these folks.

When I met with them again this year at ICEi there was more progress to report, and now they have followed up as promised with the first of their player dispute results.

In the past I, like many others, have been deeply critical of the KGC, but from what I have seen of the pudding so far, it's proving to be a lot more positive.

Now....compare this commitment with the LGA in Malta. It would be great if we could find a way to similarly motivate those folks in player sensitivity instead of their apparent present obsession with issuing licenses and hauling in the cash.

 

[LinkinFart]

I believe that only thing that will force Malta to make positive move is if players stop playing at sites licensed by them combined with no other EU based regulatory body being worthless as they are now. Hope I`m wrong or that every player adopt French protesting habbits.