How to blow 5K in one evening...

[steinhaug]

What exactly do you suggest i do with the bear?

A very good question, and a very valid question aswell considering my intelligent spelling here, hehe.

Teach it the difference between Salmon & Autoplay, give it $100, ensure the catflap is in & go down the pub

Good answer,

Kimss, your posts clearly show that you are an intelligent guy. Since your online gambling career has been interrupted/aborted, perhaps you should consider giving poker a try. I suspect you would be good at it. By giving it a try, i mean starting off with reading a couple of good books and if interested, keep on re-reading them.

Well, you are not the first one asking me for poker play. For some reason I have never found the time to start playing poker. I do however enjoy Blackjack and the occational Roulette(-disaster). My argument for not playing poker is that I do not have the time it would take to do it professionally. My occupation eats most of the day, and the occational break (as in a night off here and there during a month) would lead me to a casino to blow out some steam, which makes Blackjack and Slots great - since you continue just were you left off, running around gulping down beers having a heck of a good time between the slots.

Maby someday I would look into Poker - but I doubt it would be very soon, since I understand you need to do the homework if you are planning to be a good - read wealthy as in worth while accually doing it - player. And the point of the game is in the end to win, there are no such thing as second place in poker,

For your sake I wish you the best of luck when you pick it up again, those long tedious (is that the word?) pokertable-nights, really takes time. But again, if the pot is high its absolutely worth it. Also I would guess you quickly develope a passion for the game itself, so that hours infact fly by you when playing.

Man, I bearly have time for the slots, so I guess having time for Poker aswell would be wishfull thinking, atleast for me.

But I must add, it looks very fun - very fun. And another thing - you play poker on poker tables with real people in a casino, not online where you loose the edge. You cant see the people your playing against, you cant see their faces, its down to almost pure luck - its a slot really...

Initially i found casinos quite boring but then in early Jan i had a lucky week

Heres a funny thought. Think of one of the most boring slots you could think of, the day you get a surprising good win - you'll love it forever!

I remember cabin fever, I always though this was a bad bad machine. Sure you get 20 freespins, and usually 40 more, but you never accually get anything. Only reason I have kept playing this one is that statistically I'm pretty break even on it, even if it pays nothing on freespins. I remember checking out Ruby Fortune, and I did my usual 10 spins on 2 and suddenly I get all sorts of comboes and it ended up giving over 500 in those 20 spins. This has never before happened, and never since. However - suddenly this machine became very cool, all my initial ideas on this slot were flipped as in - Its possible, it could happen - heck, it just did! Cool! Cabin Fever is so cool.... Umm... Reality Check - not!

So regarding you having some wins, and suddenly the casinoes were cool after all, hehe, I believe all of us in this forum will agree 100% with that feeling.

This thread is good therapy if nothing else, its good to throw alot of theese thoughs and opinions out in the open. I really enjoy chatting with all of you people who have contributed to this thread, just wanted to add that again.

 

[jetset]

This is a good thread, and it illustrates to me the great sympathy and understanding that other gamblers generally have for someone with even the suggestion of a problem, and the open-hearted way in which they are prepared to offer advice and encouragement.

There's also the question of collateral damage, which the following story that surfaced in the UK this weekend highlighted for me.

It's a sad tale of a 25 year old who has cost his parents dearly through a 2 hour Internet gambling splurge using their credit cards.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

I think this is probably stupidity rather than a real case of addiction, but it does bring to mind the dangers of collateral damage when gambling spirals out of control.

The contents of this thread, and the natural wisdom that resides in here confirm what a G4 specialist told me eighteen months ago regarding the development of a problem gambling situation, and the perceptions of the victim.

And on the collateral damage aspect, he mentioned that the greatest number of peripherally affected people in any addiction came from a problem gambler; the average was substantially higher than other addictions, although research has yet to establish why.

Regards

Brian

 

[winbig]

I think you're right that this case is more of stupidity than addiction. This kid (yes I call him a kid, because he sure acted like one) obviously has something against his parents, or he wouldn't have done this in the first place. Seems to me they may have cut him off, and this is his "revenge".

I just can't believe they're calling this a "fortune". To some it may be, but judging the way they described this family, it's just a drop in the bucket to them.

All I really know is this just adds fuel to the fire for what we're facing here in the USA. Even if this bill is not to pass, then what's to stop Visa and Mastercard to disallow online gaming altogether, including the use of debit cards? Where will we be then? If this happens, be sure to buy a ton of shares for Neteller

On a side note: Maybe I'm wrong, but when you use your credit card (especially for gambling), don't they make sure the funds are actually THERE before it accepts your deposit and puts the money in your account at the casino?

[edit]Actually, it's either one of three things that allowed him to rack up that much in losses:
1) their credit limit was 6 figures
2) the casino(s) in question did a pre-auth, but hadn't ran the actual charges through yet.
3) multiple cards

 

[steinhaug]

On a side note: Maybe I'm wrong, but when you use your credit card (especially for gambling), don't they make sure the funds are actually THERE before it accepts your deposit and puts the money in your account at the casino?

Tou are correct on the AUTH part. And I can also confirm that even a debit card can easily be overcharged. If you start with a balance of say $10.000 you could easily use $20.000 here... Not the smartest thing to be aware of, however it only goes to show that credit cards have and will be the root to all evil of you really want to spend money you don't have.

One could argue that this kid wanted to burn his parents, however - betting 90 on Secret Admirerer I would guess you can quickly burn 20.000 there. We are talking 222 spins only, and with a 30% payout you would have an extra 66 spins - roughly 300 spins. I do not know how long time you need to do 300 spins on auto? Do the same on Good to Go, and burn 5K here and 5K there on 45. I am pretty sure I would be able to burn 100.000 in 2 hours if that was the point of the excersice.

It only goes to show that playing high isnt smart... Which was my experience on my 5K evening. High wagering is most likely to end up with giving the money away, this poor boy really made that part very clear!

One word : Ouch!

 

[gfkostas]

At the end of the day addictions problems in the form of gambling which is under discussion here can be concluded with one sentence: ''You will not be punished for your addictions.You will be punished by your addictions'' . Nuff said.

 

[AussieDave]

c) There is no option "C", because if you're using option "C", that means you're probably knee-deep in it already (and you'll soon be creating options "D-Z")

Probably my mind is some what twisted but that made me chuckle. On the other hand maybe cause it's a bit too close to home.

 

[johnsteed]

***

Trezz

Probably my mind is some what twisted but that made me chuckle. On the other hand maybe cause it's a bit too close to home.

A rare "non-color" post from myself (oops... I just did it ).


I hadn't realized how many excuses I had been coming up with (and for quite some time), to keep playing, or rather, to prevent myself from realizing (what I always knew what the right thing to do) that I had to shut-it-down. And the longer you ignore that you're truly reaching (or stretching) and thinning yourself out as well as your bankroll, the more you're continuously lying to yourself. I've been there.


- Constantly trying to think of new schemes to beat the system (very dangerous) when you're on the losing side of things.


- Constantly making up ridiculous calculations and projections as to how to budget the winnings that aren't even coming in. False hopes.


- When your singular thought is how on earth are you going to win back what you lost. It feels like you want your life to be put on pause for the time being, cover-up the mistakes that you'd been making (for no one including yourself to see) and get that done quickly... and then you can move on with being who you were before.


- You start sweeping the truth underneath a rug, and a whole set of lies under another one.


- When you made that last deposit/wire transfer to the bank, going to NeTeller (or whatever option you're using), promising yourself that this is a do-or-die (just) one last chance to set things right, in hopes that you'll finally come out on top because you're way overdue. Yet, you flop again, like you've been doing for quite some time now, and instead of burying your head in shame and looking at yourself in the mirror, you draw up another way to scrap-up some funds to give it another last shot. You'll even pathetically redeem a $2 weekend coupon over at "WINDOWS CASINO" in hopes of getting back in the game (very shameful).


- Even if you get on a roll, your singular thought is trying to win it all back. And constantly thinking about how poor one's luck has been for XXXXXX amount of days, you start playing tricks on yourself and think that you should start increasing your bets to ridiculously high amounts (which weren't originally a part of your plan), and go with the do-or-die mentality (which rarely has a Hollywood ending).


- You're constantly looking at the "Winner Screenshots" thread, thinking how the hell do others do it on a regular basis, all while I'm making consistently large deposits on a monthly basis (at least large to me). After looking at that, you can't help be feel as though you're WAYYYYYY overdue. When I had first registered last year, I remember going through the entire "Winner Screenshots" thread, and thinking how many $4,000 Royal Flushes were there on display, and that I couldn't even land one for myself (on MG that is). I would then change my game over to slots (an even worse decision), and again, wonder the exact same thing.


- You won't stop coming up with new excuses, until you get back what you'd lost. And you'll never want to accept that it's probably not in the "cards" for you. Percentages say so.

***


In the end, you're breathing an entirely different set of air when you start losing control and grasp of what your reality is. If you're constantly on the losing side of things, and you're still in that mode (now), you probably aren't aware how damaged your spirit is (well, after time, I'm sure you're aware of it).


The reasons that led to my decision to slow things down, and to get away for a period of time were:


- Various threads on the topic of that wonderful MG RNG. I'd seen how others appeared to be on the right side of "variance" all-too-often, and I was wondering what did the RNG have against me (which is ridiculous... I know). I'd read to many times, that you just have to keep playing, and you're going to get that monster hit (just be patient). But when months and months go by, and you're swiftly losing, it'll take a slew of those monster hits to set things right.


- I could never win whenever I REALLY needed to win. Sure, we'd all like to win non-stop, and I'm sure there aren't any periods where we don't REALLY feel like we need to win, but sometimes, one REALLY needs to win.


- I could never win on the casinos that are most coveted. And I felt that if I couldn't win there, I probably couldn't win anywhere.


- Well, I didn't like who I had become.


- Awful habits had developed. Not getting enough sleep. Depression. Low self-esteem. Going from the extreme of losing a few hundred dollars in a matter of an hour, to going to the extreme of having to work 30 minutes later while putting on a smile (boy does that hurt). Putting things off. Being late for appointments.


- Seeing everything while never REALLY looking at anything. Eyes blurry all the time (in part because of constantly looking at reels spinning... also, because I wonder if I was alert or not).


In no way do I project my thoughts onto everyone else, because this is my truth as to how things had gone sour for me over time.


If I could thank one thing, it would be all the support from all the forum members/moderators that I'd received for various threads I had written when I decided to stop. I was probably coming to Casinomeister TOO MUCH at that point, but it seemed to get my mind on writing, and the focus off of playing. To which, was a great MONSTER step in the right direction (first time I can see straight in ages... and the dirty Korean air never smelt cleaner).


Steed

***

 

[Zoozie]

***

When I had first registered last year, I remember going through the entire "Winner Screenshots" thread, and thinking how many $4,000 Royal Flushes were there on display, and that I couldn't even land one for myself (on MG that is). I would then change my game over to slots (an even worse decision), and again, wonder the exact same thing.
***

RF are not that easy, but certainly possible if you try a little more. I have landed 4 (only 1K$ though) so far in single to 4-line VP. So just keep trying!

My point of this post is that a good VP win as this actually can cover DAYS/WEEKS of loss. When I play the slot 'Loaded' 25line with total 0.25$ bet and hit 5 ladies with wild subsititue, this pays 24$. And it only takes 30 minutes (often less) to loose ALL this again. Even hitting 5 wilds (highest win) will only pay 70$. So my joy of slot winnings have been very short, while VP wins last a long time. Because of this when I play slots (not much) I do play 5 lines only and then 5 times the line bet, so the total bet is equal to 25 linies with 1/5 bet. And I always play very low bet now(0.25$ max). The mathematician in me wins over my gambling addictions, slots is an extremely loosing game. I often wonder why even the 'jackpot' wins (not counting progressives) for slots are so low, and I believe it is because the casino knows that a gambler will very easy loose it all again, so the money will be back safe in the casinos pockets. I calculated that if they multiplied the 5-wilds wins by a factor 10. (ie. 100000 for 5 Thors in Thunderstruck) the payout% for the slot would not even increase 0.5%, but now some lucky slots gamblers might get away with some money.

Zoozie

 

[steinhaug]

It's a sad tale of a 25 year old who has cost his parents dearly through a 2 hour Internet gambling splurge using their credit cards.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

I had to try, this poor schmock lost 80.000 in two hours the article said. I reinstalled Spin Palace in DEMO MODE, and While I could'nt loose $80.000 in 2 hours, I managed to loose $75.000 in 3 hours... Might I add that Good To Go is a real monster on $90 as I predicted, together with Secret Admirer, whoho - watch those $90 fly away!

This experiment really dwarfs my 5K by large!

 

[steinhaug]

First, great post johnsteed, I really feel for you and I can honestly say that I've pretty much had all those experiences myself. It's kinda ironic when you look at it, we already know most of this before we start playing, however we deny the truth and believe that this time, after all we have had bad luck so long so the tide must turn, we just have to win!

Constantly trying to think of new schemes to beat the system (very dangerous) when you're on the losing side of things.

This is truly a killer. I have argued alot with casino personel on this, but my stats really prooves my point. Here are my side of the story, and I have the stats to back it up. Here comes a learning lesson which defies all official gambling facts :

We are to believe that a slot as Ladies Nite will have the freespins on an average of 150 spins, roughly. While this is true we also know that sometimes they retrigger and it needs 900 spins to get back. However, this is not the usual so in the long run we would expect the freespins to appear in 150 spins.

This experiment works fine on $0.09 might I add :
Do a 100-120 spins without freespins. Increase to $0.18, and during the next 20 spins you most likely get the freespins. This is a very boiled down tactic and you get my point.

However, doing this acts differently :
Do 100-120 spins without freespins on $0.09,
increase to $9 and do 20 spins more - you are likely NOT to get the freespins.
You are likely to do a 150 spins on $9 before the freespins appear... Typical.

Why?

A slot NEVER pays out money in advance! This means that unless some smuck lost alot of money, there are nothing for you to win. Just look at the landbased casinoes. Isnt it convenient that the jacpot always go on 1x bet? My opinion is that in MG casinoes, there are several systems. The $0.01, $0.02, $0.05, $0.1 and so on. My point is, say the jacpot is 1 spin ahead (reading the future) on $0.01 wager, and you up the ante to $9 - there is no jacpot ahead here since you switched system. However, returning to $0.01 will give you the jacpot since that system was ready.

A casino representative would say that it all comes down to luck, when the machine is hot it will pay, whatever the wager.

I would argue this doesnt work in real life! Why you say? Since the machine is supposed to have a payout of 95% this defies reality.

What if every member plays $0.09 all the time on Tally Ho, and one lucky dude takes 1 $90 spins and hits the jackpot. Later
same month same happends. Do you really believe that a Casino would allow a machine which they loose money on?

Naturally this machine will never pay the jacpot on $90 before it can afford it!

Remembering theese facts will destroy most gambling systems, which is a good thing, since we all know they don't work very well...

 

[caruso]

When I had first registered last year, I remember going through the entire "Winner Screenshots" thread, and thinking how many $4,000 Royal Flushes were there on display, and that I couldn't even land one for myself (on MG that is). I would then change my game over to slots (an even worse decision), and again, wonder the exact same thing.

***

RF are not that easy, but certainly possible if you try a little more. I have landed 4 (only 1K$ though) so far in single to 4-line VP. So just keep trying!

Ah man, great advice Zookie NOT. Encourage a player with admitted problems to cure the problem by carrying on with what caused it in the first place??

Is this the gambling version of the "hair of the dog that bit you" hangover cure??

Awful advice.

John's post encourages me to make a point I've had on my mind to make a while now - apologies if it comes across as exasperated:

What is so difficult to understand about the concept of NEGATIVE EXPECTATION?

The gambling "problem" comes about through excessive pursuit of a money-losing activity; if you were making money, not losing it, there would be no problem.

Slot machines return approximately 95 cents on the dollar - well known fact. Every $1000 in wagering costs you $50. It's exactly like going to one of those casino bill-change machines, putting a dollar in and getting out nineteen nickels - not twenty. WHY would you do that??

I have a fairly obsessive and addictive personality. If anyone should get hung up on gambling, it's me. However, lack of mathematical background notwithstanding, the concept of negative expecation is so extremely, spectacularly simple that I have NEVER been "tempted" into such a gambling session (apart from with very good, calculated reason).

I am no more intelligent than anyone else here.

What do I know that you don't?

If I want to indulge my addictive personality, I do other things. I do NOT gamble with negative value.

Why do equally, and more, intelligent people do this?

 

[steinhaug]

***


Ah man, great advice Zookie NOT. Encourage a player with admitted problems to cure the problem by carrying on with what caused it in the first place??

Correct! This advise was very bad, very bad, and would probably cost you alot since you are heavily in the "win-back-mood", which was the reason why I managed to loose my head and blow my 5K.

Think of the $75.000 I lost last night in 3 hours (Sure, in Demo mode), as if you took a loan and wanted to get back in the game. This experience just saved you alot of money if you think of it! Sure, could have been better - but it wasnt! Fact is I blew $75.000 in 3 hours. We also heard of the guy loosing 80.000 in two hours, this time with real money! (which is kinda impressive really if it was slots).

Take a gambling vacation! Buy an X-box 360, go party, rent half the video store, do something. But do NOT enter the casino when the reason for doing so is that I need to win some money. If that fase is past you, and you only want to do some spins for the share fun of it - it would be ok.

That's my advice, hope it helps.

 

[Macgyver]

NOT.[/b] Encourage a player with admitted problems to cure the problem by carrying on with what caused it in the first place??

Is this the gambling version of the "hair of the dog that bit you" hangover cure??

Awful advice.

I gotta agree with caruso here. johnsteed opened up (magnificently so, as usual) and admits throughout his "excuses" that the main theme behind them is the "keep trying and you can win it back" way of thought.

To tell him to keep doing that is just plain irresponsible.

(hope you got my PM, johnsteed )

 

[Zoozie]

I gotta agree with caruso here. johnsteed opened up (magnificently so, as usual) and admits throughout his "excuses" that the main theme behind them is the "keep trying and you can win it back" way of thought.

To tell him to keep doing that is just plain irresponsible.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I am very well aware of the NEGATIVE EXPECTATION whatever game you decide to play on online casinos (FPDW and DDB was an exception though). I was not trying to encourage anyone to keep playing to win back what they lost. But I did mean to advice people to play VP instead,which I still believe is a way better advice than playing slots, but STILL a loose one. You money will last 5-10 times as long here. I made it very clear slots is a black hole sucking in your money.

And I still believe it is true that a VP jackpot can cover days of loss (not lifetime!) while a slot jackpot can only cover hours.

For the record I never wrote "keep trying and you can win it back", I only wrote "So just keep trying". But it was not meant as a way to win it all back, but as a goal that is possible. (hitting the RF, nothing about the money).

I am still reluctant to post the life-time slot simulations I have made since they are very depressing, and might not be welcome on a gambling forum, since it would scare customers away (and less traffic money for the meister).

I appriciate getting corrected thought! Dont misunderstand me.

Zoozie

 

[paul02085]

"I am still reluctant to post the life-time slot simulations I have made since they are very depressing, and might not be welcome on a gambling forum, since it would scare customers away (and less traffic money for the meister)."

Please post them. We are all adults here (i think, lol).

 

[johnsteed]

***

Zoozie

My point of this post is that a good VP win as this actually can cover DAYS/WEEKS of loss.

I remember laying out a post that in many ways reminds me of "Zoozie's", about a year ago, where I listed "Intercasino" as the casino to which I had my "worst player's experience". And boy, did the forum members ever get on my ass about that one. Needless to say, I wasn't being overly clear on my point at the time, and I probably deserved the negative responses after I had said that. Frankly, after that one, I'm surprised I kept coming here (which was a great decision).


Getting back to your point though, that if you do manage to hit a good VP win, what if you've been losing at that particular game over a run of months? When you're talking about not winning over a long period of time, it'll take multiple ROYAL FLUSHES to make up that kind of ground. When I was playing VP (MG) at this time last year, I'd say that I probably played anywhere from 2-4 hours every second day (and I play REAL fast as well... no coffee/smoking/washing breaks... which isn't a problem because I don't smoke). Nothing came, and it's dangerous to keep thinking that the big hit could be the next one.


caruso

What is so difficult to understand about the concept of NEGATIVE EXPECTATION?

I would have to believe that it's not so much about having difficulty understanding the "concept of negative expectation", it's that when you're behind the 8-ball, you may not be willing to accept (or better yet... embrace) the "concept of negative expectation".

cont...

Why do equally, and more, intelligent people do this?

I don't want to sound too saccharine on this one, but I think that you (directed not just at "caruso" but everyone) have to accept that brilliant people or not will still make poor choices in their lives (and lots of them at that). We'd all like to believe that we're going to be the one that will land on the right side of variance. We'd all like to believe that we generally aren't stupid, and that we do in fact make good decisions. When it becomes more obvious that this isn't happening, we don't want to accept that our destiny could/will end up in ruin.


Those aren't the kind of projections we and those we've been surrounded with, put on ourselves while growing up.


I'd also have to think that not everyone is privy to those numbers that are readily available at "Wizard of Odds". Actually, they are privy to the numbers or statistical information, but they may not be doing their homework prior to getting knee-deep into gambling. By the time that they read those statistics (negative expectation), the last thing they'll want to hear at that point is that it'll probably be impossible to recoup their losses. People in private, are proud, and don't want to say the words "I was wrong". That's when they'll rush to the "Winner Screenshots" thread and point to how others are routinely doing it. They'll be quick to point out that gambling is all about luck, and especially about chance. Perhaps, it's still not too late to turn things around (they'll say). But really, at that point it probably is too late.


It's an awful feeling knowing that you've not only wasted XXXX amount of dollars trying to make up on losses that are being compounding by the day. It's even more difficult quiting, knowing that you'll have to face the music with the people in your life. The odds of being tabbed as a "loser" (fair or not) or someone with a "problem" are greater than that of winning. You'll most certainly be viewed different by those you tell. Add that to all the time that you've been using in your life, trying to make up ground. The idea and projections of "winning" at that point, I'd assume for many, may be the only bright light that they still have (which would be false hopes).


When I use "we", I'm probably meaning "me" and "the others" I assume may share similar thoughts on the matter. I do believe that there are a fair number of people who gamble that have things under control. I'd point to "KasinoKing" and the underrated "Macgyver" as the best examples of that (profiting while staying within their means).


Side note: When I stated (above) that at that point it's probably too late, it's never too late to walk away. Difficult as hell mind you, but never impossible or too late.


Side note II: Blame the movie "Rounders" (half-joking of course) for giving you that feeling that you could turn it all around.


kimss

Take a gambling vacation! Buy an X-box 360, go party, rent half the video store, do something. But do NOT enter the casino when the reason for doing so is that I need to win some money. If that fase is past you, and you only want to do some spins for the share fun of it - it would be ok.

Just don't rent "Rounders".

If you're playing catch-up, I think that walking away and forcing yourself to keep your mind occupied is the best way to go about it.


Steed

***

 

[Simmo!]

I am still reluctant to post the life-time slot simulations I have made since they are very depressing, and might not be welcome on a gambling forum, since it would scare customers away (and less traffic money for the meister)

I'd actually say dont post them, not because of the reasons you state which I am sure would be fine with the Meister, but because there may be factors we dont know about that affect the figures (weighting etc).

 

[caruso]

I am still reluctant to post the life-time slot simulations I have made since they are very depressing, and might not be welcome on a gambling forum, since it would scare customers away (and less traffic money for the meister).

It would probably have the opposite effect: all slot addicts would most likely see is an opportunity to prove your numbers wrong. This is a quaint characteristic of bad gamblers - they're almost invariably "right", and can be told nothing. They certainly wouldn't be scared away! So post them. I assume they show a house edge somewhere between 90% and 95%, and as such wouldn't really reveal anything new.

 

[steinhaug]

It would probably have the opposite effect: all slot addicts would most likely see is an opportunity to prove your numbers wrong. This is a quaint characteristic of bad gamblers - they're almost invariably "right", and can be told nothing. They certainly wouldn't be scared away! So post them. I assume they show a house edge somewhere between 90% and 95%, and as such wouldn't really reveal anything new.

You are totally correct on that one. Being a gambler you know that the house has the edge, so the only way to win is by some other smock loosing big time. We love to feast on each other. I admit it - there is nothing more sexier than a guy I for some reason do not like, wasting tons of money on a machine on high wagering and leaving so that I can slip in on lower wagering and wheel in the fish... Sure that mean bad guy stuffing the machine, many times are me - in other eyes... So it's perfect harmony!

A lifetime simulation would be nice, and there should be no problems with it. It will most likely show that if you jumped into the cycle at the right times you could do huge wins! If you do however grab the wrong cycles you are bankrupted!

And there is the problem with us gambling addicts, we try to hard - doing to many spins. One could argue that we infact remove the "luck" out of gambling by spinning for 6 hours many days a week. For trye luck to strike, I would say you don't very often play, and when you play you win! Even a small win, say $100 would be large for a normal player. It is people like me, who plays often and long, who needs theese wins to keep the game going, we are looking for the $500+ wins all the time! Its when we hit $1000+ we are getting excitet, or getting 2-3 $500 in a row (Which really gives the same effect).

So do we believe in luck, or do we hope that we are constanly charmed? I don't really know. But post the stats - I would love to see them, and you probably have some background-info for how the stats was achieved aswell.

A simulation I would like to see, maby on lower wagering, was someone burning $1000 on $0.36 wagering in Demo mode, and doing the same excersize in Real mode and compare the results. After all, you could win in the excersize so no need to back out. Anyway, I'd like that one. I am living in the perception that a machine never pays out money they don't have, so I believe that if a machine is played at alot it's easier to win aswell, hence there would be different results in real and demo. I could be wrong, unless the demo mode is based on the real mode stats of that particular casino - something we will never know.

 

[steinhaug]

I am still reluctant to post the life-time slot simulations I have made since they are very depressing, and might not be welcome on a gambling forum, since it would scare customers away (and less traffic money for the meister).

As noted I'd love to see theese, but as noted they will probably not be totally correct since it's not likely same person will continue wager on a machine after getting a huge hit. Such a simulation would be hard to do, if you were to make it very "realistic".

Maby we could create a new thread, "Stats you don't want to know thread"

 

[gfkostas]

On the other hand if you go to the casino with the expectation to lose you will lose. Am against having a negative expectation rather I prefer to be dettached from the outcome which is a different thing.

 

[managra]

***

[Side note II: Blame the movie "Rounders" (half-joking of course) for giving you that feeling that you could turn it all around.

Just don't rent "Rounders".

Steed

***

It's not fair to throw in a comparison with Rounders. Rounders doesn't depict reality throughout the movie (after all, it's Hollywood). Poker, however, is a very different kettle of fish than casino games. With casino games, particularly slots, it's all a matter of luck and you know that in the long run the casino will prevail. Poker is a skills game. Sure, there's a luck factor and you can have a lousy night or week or month. In poker, if you are a good player and you play correctly, in the long run you will come out ahead. You are not playing against the house. The house only takes a rake and has no interest who will win. You are playing against other players whose style of play you are able to observe before sitting down at the table. In ring games you have that luxury, in tourneys obviously you don't. Table selection is very important in poker as well as getting reads on the other players.

With casinos, on the other hand, it's all a great unknown. You may have a horrible run at your favorite casino, or doing horribly the moment you up your bet size after having a couple of half decent hits. The only thing in slots you have control over is whether you'll stop or continue to play, and the amount you bet.

 

[42ndSSD]

This is an interesting thread, and I've been tempted to post several times but deleted each one.

I'm truly impressed with the amount of personal honesty people have shown. It's hard to face up to having an addiction, and it's very difficult to admit it in public. Of course hardest of all is facing friends and family... and it's unfortunate we have such a societal stigma against admitting we have a problem and really need help.

For people who have a gambling problem: please, don't ever blame yourself. I know society-at-large insists we all have total free will and complete control over our behaviors, but that simply isn't true. While some people genuinely are self-destructive, more often than not when we decide to try drugs (and gambling is a drug for many) we sincerely believe we're making the best possible decision at that time.

I'm willing to bet )) that nobody in this thread woke up one day and said "Woohoo! Today I'm going to become a gambling addict! Where's that Golden Palace signup? I gotta name my baby Goldenpalace.com!" Just doesn't happen. And the same holds true for drug users and alcoholics.

If gambling were commonplace and accepted the problems would be less severe. Part of the reason many gamblers become addicted is because they're embarassed and afraid to tell anyone about it, and that's related in part to the stigma assocated with gambling. (It doesn't help that it was formerly criminalized, which gave certain unsavory organizations a foothold...)

What really bugs me the most is when people condemn gambling out of religious reasons or personal emotions, not for rational reasons. That just adds more fuel to the whole "gambling is EVILLL! EVILL!!!!!" nonsense, which in turn contributes even more to problem gambling.

More sincere advice: if you're going to gamble, take the time to learn about it. Most gamblers are OC types, so become a little obsessed with learning about it! (You don't have to be the casino's favorite cash cow, you know.) I know that's anathema to many, and is bad advice from the aspect of encouraging the casinos to keep offering silly bonuses... but if you're going to throw money at something you should at least get the most bang for your buck. I'm certain many people wouldn't dig such deep holes for themselves if they really understood what they were doing--and some might even decide not to do it, which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

Finally... if you think you can't possibly become a gambling addict, think again. Remember, nobody ever sets out to become an addict. If you think you might have a problem, face up to it. Don't wait until you're mugging winos for quarters so you can make another deposit at 32Red... or running around like Fred Flintstone babbling "Bet! Bet bet bet bet BET! Bet bet bet bet BET!" (Talk about your fates worse than death...)

Zookie, let's see those stats. They may not be totally accurate but I'm sure they're close enough to give a general idea.

 

[johnsteed]

***

managra

It's not fair to throw in a comparison with Rounders. Rounders doesn't depict reality throughout the movie (after all, it's Hollywood).

Hmmm, good point. You're quite right that there's a difference between poker, as opposed to online casino games. But when did I suggest that I viewed "Rounders" as somehow depicting reality? Remember, I did "stress" half-joking. I had also mentioned (earlier in this thread) that people rarely have "Hollywood" endings. Maybe using the word "blame" was a bit harsh in retrospect (I wouldn't want the good people over at MIRAMAX suiing my ass off over one word being construed as defaming their movie ). Perhaps though, I should have stated it this way...

Side note II: I feel that the movie "Rounders" gives me this feeling that I can turn it (bad luck) all around.

For me, whenever I watch that particular movie, I get this MAJOR sensation of go online and gamble. It doesn't necessarily have to be poker (which I've rarely ever played), at least to me it could translate to any game. Watching that movie just triggers something in me to want to get in the game (any game involving money). "The Color Of Money", "WallStreet", and "Boiler Room" have similar affects on me. Not sure why precisely, but each one of them gets me excited about playing (fair or not). I suppose that if anything, it's all about chasing the illusion of money waiting for you to get out there and grab it. The upside eclipses the reality that there's an even greater downside at risk.


I know that the majority of this thread is about slots (and addiction in one form or another), but I just assumed that we're speaking about all games of luck. But yes "managra" , I most certainly wouldn't refute your point about poker being a game of skill (as opposed to casino games being about "luck").


Steed

***

 

[gfkostas]

First I would like to congratulate all those who are expressing their oponions and life experiences with gambling honestly. I've read the posts and I admire the humbleness and honesty that its apparent. By putting our thoughts and our energy together in this thread we are making an impact. Am positive that this thread has been helpful to many and lets keep it this way. Also many thanks to CM for hosting this online community otherwise this edifying discussion wouldn't take place.

In contrast to the above post of 42ndSSD's I would like,if I may, take a different stance. I would say that if you have a problem, blame yourself and no one else and accept responsibility for everything. If you do the mistake to put the responsibility on anything outside you for your gambling problem all you really doing is taking the attention off of where it belongs and on to something else which in return will bust you up for good.Let me give you an example.
Imagine the following situation. Let's say we have a problem with our wife who has ruined our emotional state completely and we justify and acknowledge inside us that the problem is 'her' and then we pursue with gambling in order to take some burden off of our shoulders and 'relax',forget. After all shes responsible for our emotional discomfort so we have to do 'something' to get ourselves better. We also think that we don't control our feelings and we are victims of life circumstances therefore we always need 'something' to get the dirty job done after all its easier to blame others and put the responsibility on them. That is easier than changing yourself. In this little scenario let's assume that am a doctor whos being consulted from the gambler as to what he should do with his relation problems with his wife.
My reply to him would be: If your wife is the source of your problems, you send her to me, i'll treat her, and you will get better.Thats how absurd it is. If in this example someone/something is responsible for how we are then they have to change in order for us to get better which means that we might have to wait a longggggggg time for that and waste our time waiting. Complete victimization.
My advice is if you got a gambling problem and you really want to change take responsiblity and blame no one even if they deserve to be blamed. If you rely on others to 'save you' you might wait forever. Trust in you.

 

[steinhaug]

In contrast to the above post of 42ndSSD's I would like,if I may, take a different stance. I would say that if you have a problem, blame yourself and no one else and accept responsibility for everything. If you do the mistake to put the responsibility on anything outside you for your gambling problem all you really doing is taking the attention off of where it belongs and on to something else which in return will bust you up for good.Let me give you an example.

I agree fully here. There are noone in the universe that can help you - but yourself! Only you can help youself. No other person can tell you, or show you, anything - which will make you do otherwise. For some reason we always need to learn by our own mistakes, we need to be knocked of our big horse! You would think we could learn be looking at other people...

But dont bash yourself to much, what is done is done, you can't change the past - but you CAN change the future! What is lost is lost, but still you havnt lost the money you will be earning tomorrow, next month - next year!

Think of all the happiness and pleasure you can afford with those money - if not trying to double them like history shows you over and over again never works.

Many people think that somewhere down the road someone will come and help me, or that a big win will save me (which we know in turn will trigger higher wagers and in a period of time we will be back were we started). Problem is that people like us do not lear from other mistakes. It's like car accidents, it never happends to me - it only happends to the other people. When your house burns down, that too happends only to other people - like me! But I havnt experienced that car accident yet... But since I experienced the house burning down, I do believe I might have had my share of the statistics. You get the point however. Seeing another person loosing all his money on a slot and being totally destroyed - what do we do? - instead of seeing this as a sign not to play we would see this as an opportunity to win back some of that poor smocks money, since I am su much luckier and better than him.

As mentioned earlier, another crutial part of being able to make changes, is that you need to reach rock bottom. Why this? Again we are back to the fact that we are simple creatures which simply won't take wisdom by other people, we honestly believe we are so much smarter and need to experience for ourselves that infact - we are no better than rest of the crowd!

Some great posts lately people!

 

[gfkostas]

As mentioned earlier, another crutial part of being able to make changes, is that you need to reach rock bottom. Why this? Again we are back to the fact that we are simple creatures which simply won't take wisdom by other people, we honestly believe we are so much smarter and need to experience for ourselves that infact - we are no better than rest of the crowd!

Some great posts lately people!

Some people are on the bottom for ages but they don't realize it and stay there as it requires much willingess to get out of that black hole. A mind at war with itself remembers not 'well being'.

 

[Chill]

For people who have a gambling problem: please, don't ever blame yourself. I know society-at-large insists we all have total free will and complete control over our behaviors, but that simply isn't true. While some people genuinely are self-destructive, more often than not when we decide to try drugs (and gambling is a drug for many) we sincerely believe we're making the best possible decision at that time.

You wrote a good post, but I don't agree on the quote above. Why is it that everyone in todays society needs to blame someone else for their own actions?
If someone drinks and drives resulting in a crash, is it then the brewery's fault or the guy driving the car, or maybe even the car manufacturer?
We all know the answer to that, of course it's ultimatly the drivers responsability.

 

[gfkostas]

For people who have a gambling problem: please, don't ever blame yourself. I know society-at-large insists we all have total free will and complete control over our behaviors, but that simply isn't true. While some people genuinely are self-destructive, more often than not when we decide to try drugs (and gambling is a drug for many) we sincerely believe we're making the best possible decision at that time.

I think he means that we shouldn't take ourselves so seriously in times of crisis and give them space to improve rather than labeling them as impotent. I think society at large insists that we have no control over our emotions and that someone else (psychologist,etc) will get the job done for us. While a sympathetic ear and a good advice can do a lot at the end its you that you have to take a decision to change. When the student is ready the teacher appears.
There are many companies who would like to have profits and we are encouraged everyday on tv adverts to seek our solution in prozak. I heared on TV that 33% of the youngsters in America take prozak. Now that is sad news.
The standards of live in the western world have been raised dramatically. We have mobiles, cars, computers, tv's, etc. and yet all these things can do nothing to make us feel fulfilled. Why don't we undertand that material things cannot make us happy although they are certainly good. We have been bombarded with messages which say look for your differencies between yourself and other people but i think its the time that we look for our similarities. We haven't learned how to look at another human being like ourselves. We have different kind of foods around the world and yet the hunger is the same. We have different quality of water but the thirst is the same.
I gave money to a homeless girl a while ago and she smiled with such a passion and recently I also gave money to my mother to by a coat and she smiled as well....the people are different the smile was the same.
If being depressed requires being mentally active and thinking,which it does, and so does happyness which begins with each and every one of us. If enough of us begin to act in the same way all the rest will follow as it happens today with other things though with the wrong things. We have got to get our head straight and leave all 'these' problems behind. By doing so we can then help others to do the same. We are all in this together.

I think with this thread we do make progress in leaving something behind that will help future addicted gamblers.

 

[Let_It_Ride]

Hey Let it Ride!
Should I get some cramps, we have a landbased casino 5 minutes away from me which I can visit and drink and eat and have lots of fun in. I would never blow 5K on a landbased casino, however with online gambling it's kinda easy as you are playing directly from the bank account - gives me the chills thinking of it!

Hi Kimss, sounds like a good move. I always used to enjoy my nights out to a landbased casino. Ah the good old days, when staff won't let me anywhere near the tables until I had a good dinner or at least a couple of drinks in the bar. The most I would lose there would be 1K in one night and have walked away with 4k profit on many nights, all in cash and no cash in headaches.

It's about time online casinos started tightening up on deposits limits otherwise in the long run we're all going to lose out including the casinos. I know in the UK there were plans to open x number of super casinos but due to concerns over gambling this has now been reduced to just 1 or 2, a great shame.

 

[caruso]

A great shame?? Why??

It couldn't be better news that Tessa Jowell and her lobbyists came up against The Daily Mail in full "crusader" mode.

More sincere advice: if you're going to gamble, take the time to learn about it...if you're going to throw money at something you should at least get the most bang for your buck. I'm certain many people wouldn't dig such deep holes for themselves if they really understood what they were doing--and some might even decide not to do it, which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

...and some might decide to do it PROPERLY.

I've always said exactly this myself. Well put.

 

[42ndSSD]

You wrote a good post, but I don't agree on the quote above. Why is it that everyone in todays society needs to blame someone else for their own actions?

Yeah, I kinda wondered about how that paragraph would be interpreted. Sorry about that.

Ultimately we are responsible for our actions, and no one else. But I see a distinct difference between accepting responsibilty, and what most people consider blame.

For me, and I think for most of us, the "blame" word has a ton of negative connotations. Too many of us spend too much time blaming ourselves, our parents, casinos, drug dealers, whomever. We can accept responsibility for something we did wrong without believing we're a bad person because of it.

Shit happens. I suffered from serious depression for many years, tried to commit suicide more than once, spent over three years in mental institutions. My family spent a lot of time trying to make me feel ashamed of myself, a fairly common reaction. Was that going to help? No.

While I was clearly responsible for my actions (despite what some people might claim) I don't blame anyone for any of that... least of all myself. At the time, it honestly seemed the decisions I was making were the best ones available to me. While there were external contributing factors, ultimately my behaviors were (and are) solely my responsibility.

My life is a polar opposite from that today, and I also have to accept responsibility for that. It wasn't friends, or family, or anyone else who fixed things; I turned my life around on my own. But it was a long road full of potholes.

We need to allow ourselves room to learn from our mistakes, and heaping negativity on ourselves is the wrong answer. I strongly believe that I've grown far more from my experiences than most people do through their entire lives, but only because I've been able to look at my behaviors, and the behaviors of people around me, in an objective light.

Problem gambling is a serious problem because we can easily lose much more money than we can ever afford to repay. I know, because I grew up with a problem gambler in the family. (My family is a horde of obsessive-compulsives. I'm 100% sure it's genetic to some extent.)

The real problems didn't start until she started trying to make up for losses she couldn't afford. If she'd had an out, an opportunity to go to someone (friend, family member, etc) and say "Help! I'm in way over my head and I can't pay!" then she wouldn't have gotten into the problems she did. It would've been embarassing, and she may have relapsed, but given enough and the right kind of support I'm sure she would've been OK.

But she, like most chronic problem gamblers, decided more gambling was the only way out; the shame and embarassment of admitting she had a problem was too great to allow any other course of action. And she was trying to hide her losses, as most problem gamblers do.

Ultimately she was able to get financial help--but it came with a lot of crap attached. "You stupid idiot!" sort of thing. That didn't help, her or anyone else. Blame and shame force people into doing ever more stupid things.

I don't have all the answers, probably not 0.00001% of them. But I do know that people who make serious mistakes in their lives aren't bad people. People who can honestly face up to making mistakes and learn from them are much better than most. Stupidity is forever; ignorance is a common condition, easily curable.

 

[steinhaug]

First of all I would like to thank you for a very deep and insightful post, well done 42ndSSD!

Problem gambling is a serious problem because we can easily lose much more money than we can ever afford to repay. I know, because I grew up with a problem gambler in the family. (My family is a horde of obsessive-compulsives. I'm 100% sure it's genetic to some extent.)

Here I have to agree with you. If I look at myself, I have a mother which have serious problems of her own, though it wasnt gambling rather drinking instead. It's still the same, we are missing the natural breaks, or we have the urge for theese endorfins. If I look at my earlier gambling friends, they all came from problem families. I also had three brothers that were maniacs when it came to gambling, so it do run in the family theese extreme obsessions.

Ultimately she was able to get financial help--but it came with a lot of crap attached. "You stupid idiot!" sort of thing. That didn't help, her or anyone else. Blame and shame force people into doing ever more stupid things.

This is so true. If you are lucky to get gelp, it sure as hell doesn't help much if this is the way it's done. When it comes to gambling one needs to keep in mind that gamblers probably have a alot of strings attached all the time in getting from day to dayin the first place due to gambling dept, and we are probably filled with guilt aswell. Those of us having a job are probably some of the best workeds around, working day and night. Then, as we hit rick bottom and see the light in the tunnel, you are met with the same reality which you are already living. You will have to admit all the things of your worst fears, you will have to work your ass of to pay back the "help", and probably with a great interest aswell.

Maby we all should be happy that we get help, I know. I was not one of them getting the help, though I remember like 6-7 years ago when I hit a rock bottom and asked for help. I asked for everything, but my losses were not big enough for help. At that time I had lost around $200.000, but by dept was only $50.000. Again, because I have a good job and make money, their offer was to nullify the $50.000 in trade for my salary the next 5 years, I would then only get the miminim $ to live for in those same years.

What this accually tells me, if you need that kind of help - you might aswell get all the loans in the world and try a last time before you settle yourself in the bottom, because you are going to stay there for many many years.

Now - at this point we relook at this :

For people who have a gambling problem: please, don't ever blame yourself. I know society-at-large insists we all have total free will and complete control over our behaviors, but that simply isn't true. While some people genuinely are self-destructive, more often than not when we decide to try drugs (and gambling is a drug for many) we sincerely believe we're making the best possible decision at that time.

This statement can make sense, but not for everyone surely. Blaming yourself will in the long run only make you depressive, since you can blame yourself for ever. Often your surroundings will stimulate you to keep on gambling asweel. This can be that your family tries to ignore that fact that you are gambling, friends loaning you $1000 for a cup of coffee (trying to bring some humour in here). I'm sure if you tell your landbased casino personel that you have a gambling problem - nothing happends.

Lets twist the situation :
Take a heroin addict. If you ask him to do something stupid in trade of a free hit from you, if he does it - do you thing it's reasonable that he is to blame himself for being stupid? I believe the answer is obvious, no. If the question was popped at an earlier stage in the drug addiction, the answer would absolutely be yes - but not now.

I believe we could do the same example with gambling. Should we blame ourself for gambling, for keeping up the good old tradition of loosing all of our and the people around us's money all the time? The fine tradition of constantly being annoyed on ourselves for being that stupid - again, and over and over again... No, infact I don't think so.

An erlier post I wrote in this thread I wrote this :

beating up becomes no more than a shrug on you shoulders and you telling yourself a simple "Damn, I did it again.. Oh well, Ill get a beer and a cigarette instead...".

My point here is that I no longer blame myself, I except the fact that I have very little control over my gambling addiction, especially inside a casino. But we are now 15 years into the addiction, if we were to jump say 5-10 years back in time I would absolutely blame myself.

I don't have all the answers, probably not 0.00001% of them. But I do know that people who make serious mistakes in their lives aren't bad people.

Absolutely, people make mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes. This is the way life works, we try something - we will fail - we learn from our failure - we move on. Cause and effect. Sure, many of us have a damn hard time understanding the learning part of this. People who learn from their mistakes and move on, tend to lead successfull lives with great support from friends and family since they have such a "superior-knowledge" of human-matters (not sure of the translation here... Hope you get the drift of it).

My point to this is, if we just get a grip on ourself - in a twisted but very true way we can learn and experience from our gambling something which can make us so much richer in knowledge and understanding than a person without an addiction ever will be able to!

 

[caruso]

An interesting, if sketchily detailed, account of someone owing $21,000 to Firepay on the back of bounced cheques to fund gambling purchases.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[oldmanhank]

I'm new to this forum but I have been gambling online since July of 2004. I started with poker and over the next year or so I made a nice stash of cash. I made enough to pay off my education loans and then some. I then discovered casino-on-net.

I quickly stopped playing poker and began playing casinos. I generally tried(and still do) to play only with a bonus as it seemed to be the only way to gain an edge with the casinos. Although I am up from playing casinos this way, I would be up significantly more had I stuck to the game plan. I find myself playing without a bonus from time to time and have recently began to play well past the wagering requirement . Unfortunately, poker just doesn't do it for me anymore and I can't seem to get myself back into the groove after playing hundreds of thousands of hands of BJ/VP.

That is basicly why the bonus is there and why most places are so giving of them on a monthly/weekly/daily basis. The chance is high that even the most seasoned gambler(or bonus whore) will become the next cash cow for the casino. A bonus is nothing more than an investment in our addictions by the casino.

The point of my post is to say that even with the best laid out plan, gambling will get the most of us in the end. That is the nature of the beast. The more you play, the more you WANT to play; And the more you play, the more you pay.

 

[gfkostas]

The more you play, the more you WANT to play; And the more you play, the more you pay.

Sad but true

 

[caruso]

That is basicly why the bonus is there and why most places are so giving of them on a monthly/weekly/daily basis. The chance is high that even the most seasoned gambler(or bonus whore) will become the next cash cow for the casino. A bonus is nothing more than an investment in our addictions by the casino.

Well put. I hope casinos read this and learn that the way to make as much money as possible is to give away as much in promotional incentives as possible.

They'll get us all in the end.

 

[Sodax77]

...Some great posts lately people!

I thought same thing

After all...

We are human beings ...behind these nicknames