getting documents notarised in Australia?

[maxd]

YW... Your Welcome

Of course! Silly me. Attach Removed (Old not found)

 

[Gremmyboy]

Lol
I've had to learn text speech to figure out what the hell my kids are on about?!?
Still get lost on 80% of the jargon though!

Cheers
Gremmy

 

[GrandMaster]

Got a question for our readers from Oz: where do you get your documents notarised?

• Lawyer?
• Lawyer's Office? (meaning the secretary can do it)
• Public Notary Officer?
• Court?
• Cops?
• Your friendly neighbourhood saint?
• Other? (please specify)

I ask because it seems different for each country, curious what the deal is in Oz.

Thanks,
Max.

PS. for now the thread is "sticky". In a few days I'll pull that and let it scroll with the rest.

Only notaries public can notarise a document. (Definition of notarise or notarize from the OED: "To have (a document) certified, legalized, or validated by a notary; (of a notary) to validate or certify (a document)".)

 

[Nifty29]

Only notaries public can notarise a document. (Definition of notarise or notarize from the OED: "To have (a document) certified, legalized, or validated by a notary; (of a notary) to validate or certify (a document)".)

I think the problem is what I alluded to earlier I.e the standard or level of certification required.

We don't have notaries public for everyday certifications like in the US and other places. Over here this is done by Justices of the Peace, Commissioners for taking Affidavits, and senior Court officials. Documents certified by these people are accepted for all Australian Government requirements. Some less important documents can be certified by Pharmacists etc.

I can't see any reason an online casino wouldn't accept certification via JP or CTA or even a Pharmacist for that matter, as they are all publicly registered and readily contactable for further verification.

If the casino wants the full monty with International seals etc then they are being unreasonable.

 

[maxd]

FWIW the casino has said that a JP certification -- or whatever it's called when a JP does it -- is quite acceptable.

 

[P.V.]

I understand this isn't a US request but I was a notary years ago and anyone can do it. I had to get bonded but if the OC's are doing this to stop fraud, no way this will stop it.

Notary's are a dime a dozen in the US and it sounds like abroad too.

An extra expense, a way to hold a payment for the most part, IMO. Hard copy doc's including ID, utility bills etc. should be sufficient.

The OC can do their own homework with required docs without the burden of notarized docs, along with their back ground check systems.

Also here in the US the notary needs to list whom, what and why they are notarizing the doc.. What would you tell them online gambling?

Australia has had issues with OG laws too so why make a player go to an outside party, explain why they need their docs notarized?

There's better ways to verify and the notary stuff should be unacceptable within the industry.

Again, JMO.

 

[maxd]

FWIW, what you report about the US re: notarised documents doesn't necessarily apply elsewhere, especially the bit about the notary wanting to know "why". A few years ago I had stacks of documents notarised in Canada, was never asked "why" once nor would I have thought it was any of the notary's business, which it wasn't.

As to the "should be unacceptable within the industry" stuff ... meh! I've seen a lot of cases where the casino has had legitimate doubts about the player's identity, and seeing those notarised documents settled the issues at hand and got players paid. "Unacceptable"? On what grounds? Seemed pretty acceptable to me.

And costs? In many countries it is done for free. Also, most casinos are happy to pay any of the costs if and when the player proves to be legit, so paying for it is pretty much a minor and temporary inconvenience, for legit players.

Which isn't to say that it's not something that could be abused by someone wanting to stall payments, etc. But the issue there is a dodgy casino practice, not the documents verification business itself.

If some idiot hurts his kids by throwing baseballs at them are you going to ban baseball? Ok, funky analogy but the point is it's not the baseball's fault it's the person misusing them that is the problem. Ditto with the notarisation question.

 

[P.V.]

My point is anyone can become a notary, or know a notary, so really what kind of security does this establish for an Online Casino?

Not much..

 

[Nifty29]

JPs are not actually common in Australia. Anyone can apply, but the selection process is strict and the average Joe would be hard pressed to achieve the title.

JPs also can serve as a Bail Justice for out of sessions Bail applications, and they have a unique ID which can be verified using Government websites. The service is free and you do NOT need to say why you need a document certified.

If the player won't provide documents certified via JP they are hiding something.

 

[P.V.]

So my point is, they could be manipulated, so whats the point during the verification process of asking for notarized docs?

 

[Nifty29]

So my point is, they could be manipulated, so whats the point during the verification process of asking for notarized docs?

Manipulated how??

When you see a JP you have to bring the original document and a copy. The JP compares them carefully and proceeds to certify or reject.

You also have to produce photo ID and a record is kept by the JP.

Could you produce a fake ID? Yes, but as I said things like drivers licences can be checked via dept of transport and passports via consulates etc.

JPs are trained in detecting fraudulent documents and will report it to Police.

Are you suggesting the player use your service? What is the difference?

 

[maxd]

My point is anyone can become a notary, or know a notary, so really what kind of security does this establish for an Online Casino?

Anyone can become a cop, or know a cop, so who needs cops? Don't know about you but I'll take the cops, thank you very much, even with the odd bad apple in the bunch. "Anyone can" is not a very convincing argument, IMO.

Nobody said the notarisation process was perfect. Damn sight better than nothing though.

And FWIW there are serious legal responsibilities for notaries, at least there are some places other than the US where apparently 7-11 is giving notary certification free with your morning "coffee".

As to "can be manipulated so therefore worthless" argument I suggest you have a look at the world around you. ANYTHING can be manipulated and faked, even you, or me for that matter. It's a question of degree and I think what we're seeing here is that notaries outside of the US (perhaps) are a little more reliable than you seem to think.

All the notaries I've ever dealt with have taken their jobs quite seriously and their certification was taken quite seriously in turn by those who received the documents they certified. And I'm not talking about getting 20 bucks out of a casino, I'm talking about proving identity, marital status, etc between governments. If it's good enough to get your citizenship papers then it sure should be good enough to get your money from a casino. And so it seems it is, your doubts notwithstanding.

Need I bring up the obvious conflict of interest you have in this discussion? You are after all a proponent of an identity verification alternative, are you not?

 

[Jasminebed]

There seems to be a difference between having a document Notarized or certifified in Australia, and a great deal of difference in cost.

It would be understandable for a player that received a request for Notarized documents to make an inquiry, only to find out that a JP can only certify a document, and they would have been directed to someone that could I assume.

Here in Ontario every Lawyer that pays a fee ($145) can notarize documents. Most charge $50-75 per document. Non-solicitor Notary Publics are available, and when my daughter needed something on short notice on a weekend, fees were more in the $100 range.

Like many services, prices differ. The last time I needed something Notarized, it cost me $35, plus taxes, and that was a decade ago. And I phoned around to find a cheap price.

I'm glad that the casino felt that certified was acceptable. Here in Ontario fees are charged for that service too.

 

[P.V.]

Need I bring up the obvious conflict of interest you have in this discussion? You are after all a proponent of an identity verification alternative, are you not?

I don't verify documents, just provide a way to share information other than unsecure e-mail, fax or mail.

So my opinion of notarization is just that an opinion.

Being a conflict of interest would mean I can benefit from the subject matter, which I can't. I am not an alternative.

 

[vinylweatherman]

It seems to be a problem with terminology. Casinos are saying "Notarised" when they actually mean "Certified". This is making the process more complicated than necessary, since when a player goes to a third party and says "I need this notarised", they are being MISDIRECTED to the wrong service, and a much more expensive one too. If casinos used the correct term, then the player would find that this is NOT the onerous process they thought it was.

This case proves the point. The player was asked for "Notarised documents", but when Max got involved, it turns out that they actually MEANT "Certified documents", which can be done for free by the nearest JP.

Similar differences exist in many countries, with "certified" being both more widely available, and cheaper.

 

[maxd]

Being a conflict of interest would mean I can benefit from the subject matter, which I can't.

Seems to me your attempts to discredit the document certification and/or notarisation process -- I believe "unacceptable for this industry" is what you said -- plays hand-and-glove into promoting the service you offer. You can split hairs if you like but you're basically saying "notarisation sucks ... players and casinos should use my thing" and that's exactly what I meant when I suggested the conflict of interest.

The bottom line AFAIC is that you have a vested interest in convincing anyone that will listen that notarisation is a bad or worthless process, ergo your "opinions" on this subject look a lot like self-promotion ... again.

 

[GrandMaster]

Notary's are a dime a dozen in the US and it sounds like abroad too.

Outside the US, notaries are less common and therefore more expensive, this was part of the problem.

Also here in the US the notary needs to list whom, what and why they are notarizing the doc.. What would you tell them online gambling?

In my experience, you don't have to tell them why you want something notarised, just what you want notarised. If you are concerned, you could say it is for a foreign business transaction.

My point is anyone can become a notary, or know a notary, so really what kind of security does this establish for an Online Casino?

Outside the US, notaries are usually fully qualified lawyers.

So my point is, they could be manipulated, so whats the point during the verification process of asking for notarized docs?

There are registers of notaries, so you can verify whether the person who notarised the document is really a notary public. Notaries keep a copy of the documents they notarise, so in case of any doubt, you can check the notary's copy. Forging a notarisation is perjury, which can lead to several years in prison.

Notarisation is used is multi-million dollar international transactions, if it's good enough for that, it should be good enough for online gambling.

 

[P.V.]

Whatever Max but I'm not in the verification business so not sure what the problem is here?

What's your point? I do nothing but provide a secure site for players to share their personal documents to Casino's or whomever. A hub.

Let me ask you this, would you prefers players to send their personal information by unsecure email, or unsecure fax, or unsecure mail?

You don't understand the process with PV..

So yes, in my personal opinion I do in fact think that all the verification procedures and background checks are fine. Any additional form of certification or notarization of docs is a waste of time and an added expense for the Player.

Bottom line is if Player's don't mind running to a Notary as you've suggested then alls good.! Why the debate?

 

[P.V.]

Outside the US, notaries are less common and therefore more expensive, this was part of the problem.


In my experience, you don't have to tell them why you want something notarised, just what you want notarised. If you are concerned, you could say it is for a foreign business transaction.


Outside the US, notaries are usually fully qualified lawyers.


There are registers of notaries, so you can verify whether the person who notarised the document is really a notary public. Notaries keep a copy of the documents they notarise, so in case of any doubt, you can check the notary's copy. Forging a notarisation is perjury, which can lead to several years in prison.

Notarisation is used is multi-million dollar international transactions, if it's good enough for that, it should be good enough for online gambling.

Some may agree, some not. Thanks GrandMaster..

 

[maxd]

Whatever Max ... Why the debate?

Because you keep saying things like the following as if they were fact:

Any additional form of certification or notarization of docs is a waste of time and an added expense for the Player.

As already pointed out:

• many of us disagree, notarisation/certification is a recognised and reliable process.
• many people don't have to pay for the service.
• the casinos will typically reimburse any fees the player incurred once verification is successfully completed.

 

[Nifty29]

Do you charge a fee for your service P.V.?

 

[P.V.]

Because you keep saying things like the following as if they were fact:
[/LIST]

Not a fact just my opinion. With today's technology I feel it's an undue burden, don't think the future of online gaming will support notarization requirements for withdraws.

So let's agree to disagree on the issue.

 

[P.V.]

Do you charge a fee for your service P.V.?

.99 cents per year.

 

[gid88]

the best thing to do would be to ask the casino/entity seeking the "notarization" what their interpretation and level of certification is required. As you can see from this thread there are many different interpretations across the various jurisdictions. If it is to prove you are who you or your documents say you are then without a doubt, an authorized notary could do this with their stamp...in Australia a notary can authorize all documents that a J.P. can but not vice versa. Having said that, notaries in Australia are usually required for larger conveyance transactions as opposed to corporate transactions.
In the absence of a reply from the casino, I would think the local postie or J.P. should be sufficient.

 

[maxd]

FWIW -- and I think I've said this more than once here -- the casino in question has specifically said that JP certification is perfectly acceptable. The player has been so informed but has offered no reply. At this point we're thinking he was probably just bullshitting us and trying to stonewall the casino.