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George Zimmerman not guilty of Trayvon Martin murder

TY again Cleveland for summarizing my thoughts.

Also as police if we see a crime and or act being committed by law we are required to act upon it. They don't care if we have are kids with us or not. The last thing I ever want when I am out with my family is for anyone to know we are the police.

The key point here is imminent danger. If your life is in danger you must do what you need to do to protect yourself. Example ; someone breaks into your home while you are there - you have enough time to call police and the robber confronts you in this situation yes you have a right to defend yourself and your family. Loss of life and or bodily harm gives you that right.

just because you are being followed yes you are scared yes you may be attacked but until the motion of the attack occurs the only thing you can do is call 911 and report it.
(why did he get out of the dam car)

Also Cleveland my favorite way of getting someone when we needed to was license plate lite burnt out -- worked every time . LOL


I hope I explained that the way I wanted too --

Lmao, you know that's one of those things nobody ever checks. I mean really who looks back there :D. I was stopped about 5 years back for that. You should come for a ride along one day. Yes yes my motives are pure.....mostly....well they started off pure :eek2:
 
Martin was profiled. I'm not allowed to do it, yet a citizen felt he should be allowed to, which was clear by his commits to the dispatcher.

The reason why you're not allowed to do it is for political correctness, not because it wouldn't be useful. Personally I'm all for profiling. It's dumb that an 8 year old Japanese girl might be subjected to extended body search and questioning at the airport while a bearded Arab coming straight from Pakistan is passing by with no hassle.

Also, if private citizens want to do some profiling while being on a neighborhood watch, there's no law against it. If I were on a watch and old Asian ladies were statistically prone to crime, I'd keep an eye open when old Asian ladies would be around. I call that being smart; using stats and logic instead of emotions.
 
I must say that i profile people on the way they act not on how some in their race act.There are bad people of any race,size religion,young,old whatever the case maybe.
I always pay attention to what someone does and how they act as a person to base a judgement on whether or not to steer clear.
You can live next door to the nicest people and never know that they are killers.Profiling is wrong no matter who you are IMO.Judge people by the content of there character not by the way they dress or the color of their skin.
 
I must say that i profile people on the way they act not on how some in their race act.There are bad people of any race,size religion,young,old whatever the case maybe.
I always pay attention to what someone does and how they act as a person to base a judgement on whether or not to steer clear.
You can live next door to the nicest people and never know that they are killers.Profiling is wrong no matter who you are IMO.Judge people by the content of there character not by the way they dress or the color of their skin.

Profiling isn't the same as judging, though.
 
It bothers me that now they have all these protests. There was a trial. The jury made their decision. Even the """"""The Justice Department would face significant challenges in bringing a federal civil rights case against Mr. Zimmerman," said Alan Vinegrad, the former U.S. Attorney in the Eastern District of New York. """"""""""

People should GO HOME and TAKE CARE OF THEIR CHILDREN.
 
:(:( on this incident in time we are but all one



as a foot note the monster we have built [society's concept in general political in general] since they lead it's our job to disassemble it ,each nut and bolt at a time no matter how rusted and frozen they are in place
 
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Profiling isn't the same as judging, though.
I don't know if the post was misread or my point was missed.I personally feel profiling and judging goes hand and hand.By judging a person on their appearance then there begins the profiling of that person.If you disagree that's fine.We are all entitled to our opinion and as i also stated,i don't know all the details of this case to say if Zimmerman was at fault or not.I hope the truth came out and justice was served.
 
I must say that i profile people on the way they act not on how some in their race act.There are bad people of any race,size religion,young,old whatever the case maybe.
I always pay attention to what someone does and how they act as a person to base a judgement on whether or not to steer clear.
You can live next door to the nicest people and never know that they are killers.Profiling is wrong no matter who you are IMO.Judge people by the content of there character not by the way they dress or the color of their skin.

Let me show you an example of profiling.

Say you work at airport security and you have to do extended searches on random people. These two men show up in line and you have to pick one. If you aren't profiling you might pick the Japanese man, but if you are smart you'll pick the other guy. Does that mean that the Japanese man isn't dangerous? No. Does that mean that the Arab man is a terrorist? No. It means that you use common sense when you're doing your job and you're concious that the peoples security depends on that common sense. Is it unfair? Probably.


1111.webp


FTR, the Asian man is a random tourist in NYC and the Arab man is an actual member of Al Qaeda.
 
I will not comment further.All thru this post I have read your views stand on what you believe .As for me there's nothing left to be said.

Do you still think I'm wrong though? How could you judge people by their actions if you have no idea who they are and what they do? It's simply impossible.
 
As an officer if you're simply stopping the person who fits the "look" profile, then you will make a very poor officer. There are some officers who can spot the "real" (for lack of a better term) bad guy in the midst of turds. The guy who doesn't stand out. Meaning you have a group who is known to be doing wrong, be it selling, buying, or whatever. They are open with it, they are at the bottom of the totem pole, and they dress a certain way. An officer fresh out of the academy can spot these. The officer I'm speaking of is the one who spots the bad guy who isn't looking like one. Be it through talking with them or by how they are carrying themselves.

Stopping the vehicle with a bunch of black guys in it because it's a bunch of black guys in it is silly at best. If you aren't able to articulate more than that, you will likely only find a gram or two if anything at best, by simply getting lucky. The officer who knows how to perform hwy interdiction, is the one who measures his bust in pounds, not grams.

Everyone has their niche. Some are good at dealing with citizens / victims. Some at investigating. Some simply have the gift of gab.

These are skills that are developed, and if you haven't developed them you shouldn't be employing them. GZ statement in reference to how these ass***** always get away, shows he had drawn the conclusion that Martin was there doing wrong. The fact is, if he would have stayed in his car, instead of getting out with his gun, all would have been ok. He wanted to stop an incident that wasn't happening, and he knew he was armed, therefore he felt confident in confronting Martin.

I've had a citizen stop me because they saw a guy walking down the street. I asked what made him suspicious. They stated they don't live here. Really? So you know everyone in the neighborhood, as well as their entire families? Then I got the "well he is up to no good." Really? What did he do? Was he looking into vehicles, was he pulling on door handles, was there a lot of vehicle stops near his area, or pedestrian traffic around him, does he appear to be circling a specific residence? Does he hide every time a vehicle passes by? Does he constantly check his surroundings? Is his clothing heavily weighted on one side? Does his clothes not match the weather (dressed for cold when it's hot)? Is he concerned with who is watching him?

The beauty of being a citizen is you're there at the ground level longer than the police are. You have plenty of time to observe and report. You can watch for clues / indicators. You can be prepared to dial 911 should something happen. You can make a very good witness, and some neighborhood watches are successful because they know how to employ these principles. They know not to get involved unless life is in danger. They realize police have calls to answer and a large number of streets to patrol. You know what makes grandma or grandpa so good at this? They have been around the block a time or two, they know what to look for, and they have a ton of free time on their hands to watch their neighborhood. And the biggest key of all, they will tell you "I'm too old to be chasing these young kids around."
 
Sorry everyone. It's hard for me not to type long drawn out post on this type of topic. My main point in the previous post is this (decided to break it out):

The beauty of being a citizen is you're there at the ground level longer than the police are. You have plenty of time to observe and report. You can watch for clues / indicators. You can be prepared to dial 911 should something happen. You can make a very good witness, and some neighborhood watches are successful because they know how to employ these principles. They know not to get involved unless life is in danger. They realize police have calls to answer and a large number of streets to patrol.

You know what makes grandma or grandpa so good at this? They have been around the block a time or two, they know what to look for, and they have a ton of free time on their hands to watch their neighborhood. And the biggest key of all, they will tell you "I'm too old to be chasing these young kids around."
 
in Florida how do we explain this

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Either bad lawyers that couldn't convince the judge that she was acting in self defense, or the judge saw evidences that she wasn't acting in self defense. The reason she's got so many years is because she's been convicted of attempted murder and there's a mandatory minimum sentencing (which is extremely dumb, by the way).

This woman gambled and lost big time. She rejected a 3-year sentence plea deal knowing that if she'd lose, she'd get 20 years.

It's not because she's black.
 
When it comes to profiling:

My hubby took our daughter to a campaign rally held here in town in, I believe 1995. A candidate was visiting our city to trump up votes. (Can't remember who)

Anyway, David is not the "all smiles, flag waving type". It was early evening, kinda chilly and the sun was just setting atop the buildings downtown. With the sun is his eyes and the coolness of the air, he had a leather jacket and sunglasses on.

He just stood there listening and watching. He is tall and his facial structure is similar to Clint Eastwood if that helps you get the picture

So, there he is, leather jacket, sunglasses, no flag waving, no smiles............... next thing he knows, he is pulled out of the crowd by secret service.

They kinda frisk him, check his id (David says if a person is up to something, they may purposely NOT have an id on themselves)

When they cut him loose, they said, "Sorry, you look the part."

He is retired military and served "Honor Guard" for Pres. Jimmy Carter.
 
I wanted to touch on an important point in all of this. As a citizen you should learn how to go about protecting your community in a safe manner. If anyone thinks things couldn't have been handled better then I would say you're foolish. A life is a life, and a life that young, no matter what he did in the past, had time to change.

Police procedure constantly changes based on best practices, and these types of events. I've almost killed someone on multiple incidents, where use of force was justified. I've set there watching blood pour from their heads, them not moving, and me thinking their were dead. It's a sickening feeling. And in each incident I look back, and I could have easily chosen a different route. Problem was, I felt over confident in my abilities, that thinking lead to me acting on my own, when I should have waited. True the offender chose to put himself in the situation but it's still my responsibility to protect life, bad or good. When we enter a fight, we enter with the intentions of stopping the offenders actions with the least amount of force necessary. The wrong minded citizen enters the fight with no end in sight.

As a citizen if you're not held accountable for your actions, which lead to something like this happening, then that is a very slippery slope. Simply saying "he didn't have to wait," or "it's not illegal for him to profile," is a very bad line of thinking. People wonder why government constantly removes your rights. Think about that for a minute. This incident was easily preventable by him staying away.

Winning in court isn't the same as not being responsible for the incident. I won my cases and survived internal affairs investigation on unnecessary use of force, or excessive use of force. But I know I was wrong. I shouldn't have been where I was by myself. And to make matters worst, I KNEW, backup was on the way. I confronted the suspect, now the offender, and he resisted, as I knew he would. Without that second unit, a man ended up seriously injured, as there was no one there to help me, so I used an increased amount of force.

Too many incidents happen daily that could have been prevented. Learn the proper way to act, and when force is necessary, learn how to be a good witness, learn how to observe and report.
 
Cleveland, I have to say that I have been, and continue to be, impressed by your thoughtful posts on the rule of law and the value of a human life.

IMO you have very articulately reflected the subtler nuances involved in law enforcement and given an insight into the often unappreciated and frequently hazardous role of police officers whose day may involve violence and having to deal with dangerous and dishonest members of society in the full knowledge that there could be personal consequences that extend beyond personal injury.

Thank you.
 
I'm hoping to help with the understanding of what profiling by a police officer is.

Lets say we get a call from dispatch saying - burglary in progress - male, blue jeans, black shirt, blue baseball cap- race unknown.

now we rush to area and we see a white kid fitting the description, a black kid fitting the description and a Italian kid fitting the description. If we were to only grab the black kid - that would be profiling. ( it's kinda like using stereotypes to make our decision for us.)

The correct thing to do would have been to grab all 3 and ask dispatch for more info or wait on witness.

You can not use your personal opinions or beliefs. Now let's say the same call comes in and you see the same 3 people however the Italian kid you recognize because you have arrested him 3 times before for the same thing. You grab him first and stop the other two - because your experience in the matter with the Italian kid.

It's a very fine line sometimes.

Its just like the word entrapment. People never could understand that process as well. There are key things that need to happen. For example:

Prostitution sting.

Stand on corner, see car approach, go to car, man offers money, man gets arrested.

What you need to know is the key things that need to occur are: I stand on corner, car pulls up, i see man in car. I DON'T go near car until MAN waves me over. HE has then Officially started the process of contacting me. I go over to car. I do not mention money until he asks, he has now initiated the process 2 times.

See there are certain events that needed to occur to avoid the entrapment clause.

Police are trained and I mean they try to burn it into your brain to watch for key things.
When dealing with a confrontation, police have to use the least amount of deadly force to protect themselves.

We use to have night sticks and long flashlights that we carried. Cleveland knows the mag lite I'm speaking of. They we taken away because: During fight situations, if police couldn't get to their night sticks (remember using the least amount of deadly force first) to protect themselves they would grab their flashlights. If an officer is in a fight our 2 goals are do not let them get your weapon and survive until backup arrives. (just so you understand) So they were taken away when someone sues and won saying hey there flashlights not weapons.

Last thought: Police are people too. We have families, we have bills, we are human. It's a job and a job only. However it's also a job that effects your family life. Missing holidays, on your day off going to court or trial. Seeing a dead abused kid, a crack head mom, or just a horrible car accident goes home with you. It is burned into you memories forever. Yet we do are best and yes we are proud. Our job is to protect the same Liberals who try to take the most from us, and say we are no good from getting mugged or attacked. Why it's our job. The last thing any police officer ever wants to do is pull their weapon, when that gun is in our hands is says I am willing to have to take a life if needed, and trust me none of us want to do that. We see things that none of you can ever imagine. We know things that you will never see on the news. We are loved when people need us and we are hated when we have to arrest someone. There is no amount of money that we can be paid for what we do, yet what we do is never good enough and they continue to question why we receive what we do. See a fireman is the hero you see him running into the building rescuing that child, a cop is a cop. You never see the pictures of a cop covered in cockroaches and bugs from the project they just had to run into. You never see the kid they just rescued from the abusive mother, you never see the hero that is in everyone of us until one is killed in the line of duty.

Sorry for the rant but I thought maybe if you understood how we are trained and what we go through you would understand us better.

last thought- I was a cop until when responding to officer needs help call along with other squads a gang-banger kicked the side of my knee trying to stop me from arresting his buddy. All hell was broke loose on the call. I walked on my leg for about 2 hours - just from the adrenaline rush. My knee was shattered- 8 surgeries later over 5 years physical therapy just so I can walk again. I'll never ride a bike, climb a mountain, ski again. Do I complain no because I'm still here with my kids. That's all that matter to me. However all this happened just because I was doing my job.

So the next time your late for work, in that bad mood, and get pulled over just remember we are human and we just do the work no one else wants to do.
 
The reason why you're not allowed to do it is for political correctness, not because it wouldn't be useful. Personally I'm all for profiling. It's dumb that an 8 year old Japanese girl might be subjected to extended body search and questioning at the airport while a bearded Arab coming straight from Pakistan is passing by with no hassle.

Also, if private citizens want to do some profiling while being on a neighborhood watch, there's no law against it. If I were on a watch and old Asian ladies were statistically prone to crime, I'd keep an eye open when old Asian ladies would be around. I call that being smart; using stats and logic instead of emotions.

This is exactly what we need - reality.
When searching for muslim terrorists in London, the liberal outrage and PC brigade began wailing that the police were stopping a disproportionate amount of Asians (for the N.Americans Asian in the UK refers to S.Asians from the Indian subcontinent, i.e. Indian/Bangladeshi/Pakistani).
Now, funnily enough virtually all those charged with Islamic terror don't look like Anglos but are Asian/Pakistani and N.African with a few blacks thrown in. You do get the odd white of low intelligence who has been converted and brainwashed, but rarely. So, efficiently targeting the appropriate group got the Police criticism. So, yes, unbelievably they were asked to stop more whites to 'balance' things.

Now, lets look at another area of crime still popular in the UK, even more popular than Islamic terror and paedophilia/sexual grooming - soccer hooliganism. The Police, appropriately, target white males in groups because 99% of those that indulge in this are - yes! white males! You guessed it, not a word said in protest!

If the cap fits, wear it and lets stop pussyfooting around.
 
This is exactly what we need - reality.
When searching for muslim terrorists in London, the liberal outrage and PC brigade began wailing that the police were stopping a disproportionate amount of Asians (for the N.Americans Asian in the UK refers to S.Asians from the Indian subcontinent, i.e. Indian/Bangladeshi/Pakistani).
Now, funnily enough virtually all those charged with Islamic terror don't look like Anglos but are Asian/Pakistani and N.African with a few blacks thrown in. You do get the odd white of low intelligence who has been converted and brainwashed, but rarely. So, efficiently targeting the appropriate group got the Police criticism. So, yes, unbelievably they were asked to stop more whites to 'balance' things.

Now, lets look at another area of crime still popular in the UK, even more popular than Islamic terror and paedophilia/sexual grooming - soccer hooliganism. The Police, appropriately, target white males in groups because 99% of those that indulge in this are - yes! white males! You guessed it, not a word said in protest!

If the cap fits, wear it and lets stop pussyfooting around.

Here is Bruce Schneier's view, who actually know about the subject:
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Either bad lawyers that couldn't convince the judge that she was acting in self defense, or the judge saw evidences that she wasn't acting in self defense. The reason she's got so many years is because she's been convicted of attempted murder and there's a mandatory minimum sentencing (which is extremely dumb, by the way).

This woman gambled and lost big time. She rejected a 3-year sentence plea deal knowing that if she'd lose, she'd get 20 years.

It's not because she's black.

It makes no sense. Her mistake was to return to the house, and that stopped the case being a self defence under "stand your ground". However, Zimmerman did the same, so surely he too lost the defence of "stand your ground" as he went on the offensive.

When she went back, she only wanted to force her abusive husband out of her own home by making him fear for his safety. Of course, she should have dialled 911 and got the police to deal with the matter, but so should have Zimmerman.

Surely there is as much doubt over what exactly took place in both cases, so it appears she got convicted unfairly of an offense far more serious that the one she committed.

Also, in the Zimmerman case, surely the victim could also have argued "stand your ground" when he was made afraid by this person getting out of their unlit car to follow. The "stand your ground" law would allow him to confront, rather than flee. Someone parked up in an unlit car is not exactly just "going about their normal business", and if you see them get out and follow you, surely it is not unreasonable to feel fear for your own safety. He attacked Zimmerman first, but this too is surely covered under "stand your ground". Neither party could know what the agenda of the other was, and this is the bigger problem. Effectively, this law created a situation where each party could use deadly force under the "stand your ground" law, and only one outcome was possible, one dead, and one found not guilty.

I am also surprised at someone with that past record (Zimmerman) being allowed such a position in the first place. The UK have closed a similar loophole in our own private security industry by bringing in a licensing scheme, and banning those with a history of violence and serious crime from working in "security".

It seems the US "right to bear arms" makes the consequences of such mistakes all the more serious. Here in the UK, it would at worst have been a beating and/or forcible detention whilst awaiting the police, rather than being shot dead. We do have armed police, but they attend only as back up when there are grounds to believe a firearm might be used in a crime or attempt to escape. They have also been known to make serious mistakes.

Maybe "stand your ground" needs to be restricted, perhaps to incidents where a trespass has been committed, such as someone entering your home uninvited. There have been calls in the UK for some kind of right to use force in situations where your place of safety has been violated without having to worry about what would be deemed "reasonable" in a legal sense. There is already a "reasonable force" defence, but this is lost as soon as someone pursues an offender once they start to run away. If in the home, you could also lose the defence if you deliberately block their exit and force a confrontation.


As for Marissa Alexander, she should appeal and get a better legal team.
 
It makes no sense. Her mistake was to return to the house, and that stopped the case being a self defence under "stand your ground".

No. According to the evidences shown in court, she had an argument with her ex husband, went to the garage, took a gun, went back in the house and fired a shot at him (but missed). That's neither self defense nor standing your ground, that's attempted murder.


However, Zimmerman did the same

No. According to the evidences shown in court, Zimmerman got out of his car, followed him, got assaulted, feared for his life and used his gun in self defense. It's not illegal to follow someone (anyone) on the street, but it's very illegal to assault someone. The "should have stayed in his car" or "should have stayed home" aren't legally (and even morally) valid points at all.

I wish people would stop twisting stories to serve their agendas.
 
I strongly disagree about redoing the stand your ground law and would never sign a petition for it as someone who owns several firearms and has a permit to carry , I feel in the world we now live in everyone should know how to protect themselves and their families and this includes using firearms , if it comes to it.

They should have to take a gun class like I did , get a state background check and get a permit if they want to arm themselves legally.

If an intruder comes in my house wanting to do harm or rob and rape and the only thing between that person and my children is ME , I am not going to hesitate one iota in shooting the bastard and aiming right for the chest and that's no bull shit !


Yes guns kill people , that's what they are used for but it is people that have no training or permits and no respect for weapons that scares the hell out of me !

Laurie
 
If an intruder comes in my house wanting to do harm or rob and rape and the only thing between that person and my children is ME , I am not going to hesitate one iota in shooting the bastard and aiming right for the chest and that's no bull shit !


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If you think Trayvon Martin's story is something, you should read that one about Tony Martin. It's f'in unbelievable. Guy got robbed 10 times, found 2 intruders in his farm, shot one, got initially charged with murder, went to jail for 3 years without parole and now has to live in a secret location because the families of the bad guys put a price on his head.

And that didn't happen in Somalia or Nigeria...

Read it!
 
No. According to the evidences shown in court, she had an argument with her ex husband, went to the garage, took a gun, went back in the house and fired a shot at him (but missed). That's neither self defense nor standing your ground, that's attempted murder.




No. According to the evidences shown in court, Zimmerman got out of his car, followed him, got assaulted, feared for his life and used his gun in self defense. It's not illegal to follow someone (anyone) on the street, but it's very illegal to assault someone. The "should have stayed in his car" or "should have stayed home" aren't legally (and even morally) valid points at all.

I wish people would stop twisting stories to serve their agendas.

You said he was looking for a house number before. And yes it is illegal to follow someone, it's called stalking. You should take you own advice.
 
No. According to the evidences shown in court, she had an argument with her ex husband, went to the garage, took a gun, went back in the house and fired a shot at him (but missed). That's neither self defense nor standing your ground, that's attempted murder.




No. According to the evidences shown in court, Zimmerman got out of his car, followed him, got assaulted, feared for his life and used his gun in self defense. It's not illegal to follow someone (anyone) on the street, but it's very illegal to assault someone. The "should have stayed in his car" or "should have stayed home" isn't a valid point at all.

I wish people would stop twisting stories to serve their agendas.


Zimmerman got assaulted by someone he decided to follow. If one is allowed to use deadly force if placed in fear, then surely it applies to everyone, and so Zimmerman triggered the assault by standing his own ground rather than backing away from a confrontation by staying in his car. Had Zimmerman remained in his car, he would have been in no danger of being assaulted in the first place, and thus have no need to defend himself. It wasn't illegal to follow, but neither was it illegal to be walking to one's father's house in a gated community.

If Marissa Alexander was often assaulted by her husband, it's understandable that at some point she would snap, and try to do something about it. She claimed it was a "warning shot" designed to put fear into her husband such that he would back down rather than beat her to conclude the argument. At what point does a warning shot become an attempt to kill beyond reasonable doubt?

You can actually shoot and kill someone, yet still succeed in pleading self defence and standing your ground, yet you can fire a shot as a warning that misses, but is designed to intimidate someone into backing down, and get 20 years. Surely Zimmereman was taking quite a gamble when he got out of his car and followed, as he too stood the risk of getting 20 years, even if he had fired and missed.

It seems to me that in America there is a culture of picking up and using a gun as an automatic response to a feeling of being threatened. Here in the UK the mere possession of a gun would get you 5 years, even if you didn't pick it up, let alone threaten to use it. Far from making America safer, it has made it more dangerous as now anybody without a gun is at a distinct disadvantage in any dispute, even minor ones.
 
Zimmerman got assaulted by someone he decided to follow. If one is allowed to use deadly force if placed in fear, then surely it applies to everyone, and so Zimmerman triggered the assault by standing his own ground rather than backing away from a confrontation by staying in his car. Had Zimmerman remained in his car, he would have been in no danger of being assaulted in the first place, and thus have no need to defend himself. It wasn't illegal to follow, but neither was it illegal to be walking to one's father's house in a gated community.

If Marissa Alexander was often assaulted by her husband, it's understandable that at some point she would snap, and try to do something about it. She claimed it was a "warning shot" designed to put fear into her husband such that he would back down rather than beat her to conclude the argument. At what point does a warning shot become an attempt to kill beyond reasonable doubt?

You can actually shoot and kill someone, yet still succeed in pleading self defence and standing your ground, yet you can fire a shot as a warning that misses, but is designed to intimidate someone into backing down, and get 20 years. Surely Zimmereman was taking quite a gamble when he got out of his car and followed, as he too stood the risk of getting 20 years, even if he had fired and missed.

It seems to me that in America there is a culture of picking up and using a gun as an automatic response to a feeling of being threatened
. Here in the UK the mere possession of a gun would get you 5 years, even if you didn't pick it up, let alone threaten to use it. Far from making America safer, it has made it more dangerous as now anybody without a gun is at a distinct disadvantage in any dispute, even minor ones.

So a maniac breaks into your home and a loved one is about to get raped or maybe he just wants to visit you all , could be your daughter or niece , someone YOU love . What would you do , if you did have a gun and was trained to use it , would you blow the fxcker away and save your family and risk jail time or wait for the unarmed bobbies to arrive on the scene !!!

Laurie
 
You said he was looking for a house number before. And yes it is illegal to follow someone, it's called stalking. You should take you own advice.

I said "according to the evidences shown in court".

Stalking definition:

Pursue or approach stealthily: "a cat stalking a bird".
Harass or persecute (someone) with unwanted and obsessive attention: "the fan stalked the actor".


I don't see following someone on the street for a short period of time in there. If you follow me on the street because you think I'm suspicious, that doesn't give me the right to attack you. And if I attack you, I hope you'll do whatever you can to save your life.
 
So a maniac breaks into your home and a loved one is about to get raped or maybe he just wants to visit you all , could be your daughter or niece , someone YOU love . What would you do , if you did have a gun and was trained to use it , would you blow the fxcker away and save your family and risk jail time or wait for the unarmed bobbies to arrive on the scene !!!

You don't understand, Laurie. It's much better if you and your nieces get raped and beaten while waiting for the police than killing a bad guy. See, the bad guys aren't the problem, guns owned by good people are.

anybody without a gun is at a distinct disadvantage in any dispute


“If God didn't make men equal, Samuel Colt did.”
 
I said "according to the evidences shown in court".

Stalking definition:

Pursue or approach stealthily: "a cat stalking a bird".
Harass or persecute (someone) with unwanted and obsessive attention: "the fan stalked the actor".


I don't see following someone on the street for a short period of time in there. If you follow me on the street because you think I'm suspicious, that doesn't give me the right to attack you. And if I attack you, I hope you'll do whatever you can to save your life.

Stalking definition:

Pursue or approach stealthily: "a cat stalking a bird". It was dark and was Zimmerman making noises or announcing himself as a neighborhood watch?
Harass or persecute (someone) with unwanted and obsessive attention: "the fan stalked the actor". Seems to me that shooting someone who is not committing any crime is kinda harassing and was probably unwanted by Martin.

You seem to think that because you read something on reddit or saw text messages from an unknown/unverified source that you know all the facts.

You have an opinion the Zimmerman was justified I am of the opinion that he was not. Take opinions and conjecture out of the equation and you are left with some definite truths; 1) A 17 year-old unarmed man was shot and killed while doing nothing illegal 2) If Zimmerman had stayed in his car and observed, as he was supposed to do, Martin would not have been killed.

And to your last point I don't believe Zimmerman's story, to me it doesn't make sense. I believe he grabbed Martin, trying to hold him till police arrived, Martin fought and tried to get away and Zimmerman shot him when he realized he was getting his ass kicked. That seems to fit the screams heard on the tape better, to me that sounded more like the screams of someone who was being held against their will than someone who was getting beat up.

Gun rights are okay with me but it seems we should be figuring out ways to have less people shot instead of trying to figure out more ways to justify it.
 
So a maniac breaks into your home and a loved one is about to get raped or maybe he just wants to visit you all , could be your daughter or niece , someone YOU love . What would you do , if you did have a gun and was trained to use it , would you blow the fxcker away and save your family and risk jail time or wait for the unarmed bobbies to arrive on the scene !!!

Laurie

The problem is that with guns so freely available in the US, one has to assume the maniac has one and is prepared to use it. This mutual escalation is what has made the US more dangerous despite the ability to have and use guns for self defence.

The UK has gone too far the other way, even non lethal means of defence such as pepper spray are illegal, one is only allowed to use one's bodily parts or every day items they manage to grab whilst being attacked, and so of course the assailant with gym membership is at a distinct advantage. The best thing one is allowed to carry is the "rape alarm", which is simply a high decibel siren that a determined attacker will simply ignore.

It would be better in the US if people had tazers rather than guns, and used these as their first line of defence (they are illegal here in the UK, just like guns and pepper spray). A tazer will put any but the most crazed maniac straight to the ground, and buy time for a victim to get out of the situation. It would usually deter a further attack. Unlike a gun, it would most likely not result in death or permanent injury. Tazers are being introduced to the UK police force as a move to "arm" everyday police patrols for their own protection, but without giving them deadly force, and breaking with tradition and giving the UK armed police.

The above scenario is one where someone would use force, even lethal force, and have a chance of being able to use "self defence" in court, but of course not with a gun, as having it would be illegal.

The case of the farmer Tony Martin created considerable controversy, and it seems his conviction was based on him firing the shots at fleeing burglars, rather than robbers who stood their ground and tried to attack him. With this, he lost the argument of reasonable force. Had they advanced towards him up the stairs and he shot them as they came closer, he probably would have been found to have used reasonable force, and not been found guilty. He would still have been charged with having an illegal firearm, so the end result would not have been much different, he would still probably have gone to jail.
 
guilty or not it still gives no one a right to start beating the crap out of every white person they see.

that is just wrong. i did,nt see any whites go out and shoot any little black babys when those two black thugs shot that 18 month old in the face and killed him.

nor did i hear very much about it on the news altho i don,t watch t.v and would,nt watch any news caz they are biased but still there was no outcry and obama

did,nt get involded saying if he had a son he would look like that little boy.

no all this was for was to divide the races more then what him and al sharpton and jessie jackson already has.

it is sad that the u.s has fallen this far.
 
guilty or not it still gives no one a right to start beating the crap out of every white person they see.

that is just wrong. i did,nt see any whites go out and shoot any little black babys when those two black thugs shot that 18 month old in the face and killed him.

nor did i hear very much about it on the news altho i don,t watch t.v and would,nt watch any news caz they are biased but still there was no outcry and obama

did,nt get involded saying if he had a son he would look like that little boy.

no all this was for was to divide the races more then what him and al sharpton and jessie jackson already has.

it is sad that the u.s has fallen this far.

How many white people did Trayvon beat up? I didn't know he beat up every white person he saw.

Try to take all the color out of it, everybody is gray.

You and your son go over to visit someone, your son says, "Hey Mom, I'm gonna run to 7-11, I'll be right back..." He commits no crime along the way but an hour later you find out he has been shot dead by a self appointed neighborhood watchman.

I can see NO possible justification for that given what we know and what has been presented.

If he came home with some bumps and bruises, if you got a call that he has been arrested, if the police came to your door with him asking if he belongs here, fine. But dead? No way.
 
I think this thread has given some of us some insight on many issues , most of all , one person is dead and another man's life will never be the same.

The trial has ended and the verdict passed down by a jury of peers and we have to respect that , even if you do not agree. This is our judicial system , it may not have turned out the way you wanted but its over.

We are all creatures on this earth for such a short time and should treat each other with respect and empathy.


Laurie
 
How many white people did Trayvon beat up? I didn't know he beat up every white person he saw.

Try to take all the color out of it, everybody is gray.

You and your son go over to visit someone, your son says, "Hey Mom, I'm gonna run to 7-11, I'll be right back..." He commits no crime along the way but an hour later you find out he has been shot dead by a self appointed neighborhood watchman.

I can see NO possible justification for that given what we know and what has been presented.

If he came home with some bumps and bruises, if you got a call that he has been arrested, if the police came to your door with him asking if he belongs here, fine. But dead? No way.

No comparison:

TM did NOT go right back home. His dad didn't even know until he called the police to report him missing at about 2 in the morning. The confrontation was much earlier in the evening.
 
No comparison:

TM did NOT go right back home. His dad didn't even know until he called the police to report him missing at about 2 in the morning. The confrontation was much earlier in the evening.

Of course he didn't go right home, he got shot.

OK, so instead of finding out an hour later you find out 7 hours later. No one has put forth any evidence or even any suggestion that TM was involved in any type of malevolent behavior during that time.

So where was the death penalty carried out by Zimmerman justified?

Because he got beat up by somebody he was stalking? And yes, I call it stalking because Zimmerman never identified himself as any kind of authority so from Martin's viewpoint he was being stalked by a stranger.

I am just going to admit to myself that my feelings on this matter are not shared by everyone. People have strong feelings on both sides and that's just the way it is.
 
How many white people did Trayvon beat up? I didn't know he beat up every white person he saw.

Try to take all the color out of it, everybody is gray.

You and your son go over to visit someone, your son says, "Hey Mom, I'm gonna run to 7-11, I'll be right back..." He commits no crime along the way but an hour later you find out he has been shot dead by a self appointed neighborhood watchman.

I can see NO possible justification for that given what we know and what has been presented.

If he came home with some bumps and bruises, if you got a call that he has been arrested, if the police came to your door with him asking if he belongs here, fine. But dead? No way.

i was,nt evem talking about trayvon i was talking about all the people that have been beaten and some of them almost beaten to death since this happen.

just caz someobody got shot and killed does not give that race a right to go and beat every white person they see. i wonder what would have happen had every white person went out and beat someone black when o.j was found not guilty?

and what about all those potesters that would not let that lady take her g-daughter to the hospital? that is bullshit everyone from the media to al jessie and obama got into this.

and no one should have what set this apart from any other shooting? that is what i meant.
 
i was,nt evem talking about trayvon i was talking about all the people that have been beaten and some of them almost beaten to death since this happen.

just caz someobody got shot and killed does not give that race a right to go and beat every white person they see. i wonder what would have happen had every white person went out and beat someone black when o.j was found not guilty?

and what about all those potesters that would not let that lady take her g-daughter to the hospital? that is bullshit everyone from the media to al jessie and obama got into this.

and no one should have what set this apart from any other shooting? that is what i meant.

Oh, okay, never mind then. I thought this thread was about whether Zimmerman was justified in killing Martin.
 

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