Genting Casino breached my loss limit

[Mazurka]

I have an account on Genting Casino and a loss limit was imposed on my account's creation by Genting of £100. (Different from a deposit limit etc.)

I have been reviewing my transaction history after noticing that my bank balance was not where I thought it should be, and it turns out that I deposited over £1000 over my loss limit at the start of June.

I have complained to them but so far they seem to only be sending copied and pasted responses about the difference between loss limits and deposit limits, without engaging with my query.

What are my prospects of getting this money returned to me? It seems to me that it has been fraudulently obtained.

Many thanks

 

[Kroffe]

Hard to answer without additional info.
Have the loss limit been breached over whatever time period it is set?

Many casinos will add winnings to the loss limit, so a deposit of £100 that ends up with a £1000 withdrawal means you can now deposit and lose £1000 before you hit the £100 loss limit. So if its a monthly limit you could say that you now have a £1000 loss limit until it resets.
It is true that there is a difference between a deposit and a loss limit.

In short, if the safe gambling system has failed in some way you may have a chance of getting your deposits back, if things are working as intended that money is gone.

 

[Mazurka]

Yes so the loss limit applies in a 'rolling' 30 day period and there is an overall loss for the 30 days before my last deposit of 324.40

But my loss limit is 100?

 

[jasonuk]

That will be why then - the loss limit is a point-in-time calculation based on the data from the past 30 days.

If a big win or big withdrawal (for the deposit-based equivalent) drops out of the calculation, then you can "exceed" the limits without any further action - because the losses remain in the calculation but the profits do not.

For example:
Day 1 - £200 win (limit now £300)
Day 10 - £100 loss (£200 limit)
Day 15 - £100 loss (£100 limit)
Day 20 - £100 loss (£0 limit)
Day 31 - previous win drops out (-£200 limit)
Day 41 - previous loss drops out (-£100 limit)
...

Across this period, you still only have net losses of £100 - and will comprise of actual losses (the £100 limit per month) and losses offset against previous profits (the net part of the calculation).

Deposit limits can be net (including withdrawals) or gross (deposits only), but loss limits generally tend to be net - so players have to be careful if they've had a big win that inflates their limits.

 

[Mazurka]

Sorry if I'm being thick, but from where I am looking at it I have made a net loss of 224.40 above my loss /spend limit.

In the 30 days between 4th May and 3rd June I deposited 224.40 more than the 100 limit overall, taking into account all deposits and withdrawals. Surely this means they owe me that 224.40 back?

To clarify, I understand the dropping out thing within the rolling 30 day period but within the last 30 days on my records I am sure that I have deposited 224.40 over the loss limit (total deposits of 324.40 greater than total withdrawals within those 30 days)

 

[Mazurka]

I should also add that my understanding is that the rolling 30 day period started on 26th May, since there were more than 30 days between that date and the last deposit before then. But between 26th May and my last activity on 3rd June I deposited 324.40 more than I withdrew - surely given the spend limit is 100 that means they owe me 224.40 back?

 

[Kroffe]

Sorry if I'm being thick, but from where I am looking at it I have made a net loss of 224.40 above my loss /spend limit.

In the 30 days between 4th May and 3rd June I deposited 224.40 more than the 100 limit overall, taking into account all deposits and withdrawals. Surely this means they owe me that 224.40 back?

To clarify, I understand the dropping out thing within the rolling 30 day period but within the last 30 days on my records I am sure that I have deposited 224.40 over the loss limit (total deposits of 324.40 greater than total withdrawals within those 30 days)

You should send them a screenshot showing that you have a net loss of 324.40 within the 30 day period the limit is set for and ask for an explanation on how that is possible.

 

[Mazurka]

You should send them a screenshot showing that you have a net loss of 324.40 within the 30 day period the limit is set for and ask for an explanation on how that is possible.

Yeah I have tried to do this but the customer service agent who is replying keeps responding by including figures outside of the rolling period to justify the deficit. I'm asking for it to be escalated to managers but he appears to be a manager himself

 

[jasonuk]

Sorry if I'm being thick, but from where I am looking at it I have made a net loss of 224.40 above my loss /spend limit.

In the 30 days between 4th May and 3rd June I deposited 224.40 more than the 100 limit overall, taking into account all deposits and withdrawals. Surely this means they owe me that 224.40 back?

To clarify, I understand the dropping out thing within the rolling 30 day period but within the last 30 days on my records I am sure that I have deposited 224.40 over the loss limit (total deposits of 324.40 greater than total withdrawals within those 30 days)

So firstly, a deposit limit and a loss limit are two different things:

• A deposit limit applies to deposit and withdrawals, if you exceed the limit you cannot deposit but you can still play if you have a balance.
• A loss limit applies to game winnings and losses, if you exceed the limit you cannot play but crucially you may still be able to deposit.

So you would need to identify where those losses were in the past 30 days, and then look at 30 days prior to those individual transactions - you will likely see winnings that can be offset in the loss limit.

As Kroffe says, the customer support should be able to spell it out in more detail with your actual transactions - but to show a loss limit failure you would need to explicitly demonstrate a transaction that was made while your allowance was zero or negative at that exact moment.

Based on what you've said so far, it doesn't sound like that is the case - rather winnings dropped out of the calculation that losses were netted against, which causes the negative number for a period of time.

 

[Mazurka]

It's simply a limit on what I can deposit within a defined 30 day rolling period minus withdrawals made in that period. So with a limit of 100 if I deposit 100 and withdraw 200 I can thereafter deposit 200. But if I then go back and deposit that 200 and lose it all I cannot deposit anything else until 30 days have passed since that first 100 was deposited.

Within the time frame of my 30 day rolling period I deposited about 324 more than I withdrew, and with a loss limit (that is what they call this system), of 100 that surely means they owe me 224 back, since it should never have been allowed to be deposited.

In the 30 days prior to the rolling period concerned, there were no transactions at all.

I do not understand why they have to make this all so difficult, except it makes exactly this sort of situation easier to avoid rectifying.

 

[jasonuk]

It's simply a limit on what I can deposit within a defined 30 day rolling period minus withdrawals made in that period. So with a limit of 100 if I deposit 100 and withdraw 200 I can thereafter deposit 200. But if I then go back and deposit that 200 and lose it all I cannot deposit anything else until 30 days have passed since that first 100 was deposited.

Yup, we're both on the same page here - I wanted to spell it out because we've had a number of threads where the issue was a lack of understanding rather than an actual problem. Apologies if I'm stating the obvious!

Within the time frame of my 30 day rolling period I deposited about 324 more than I withdrew, and with a loss limit (that is what they call this system), of 100 that surely means they owe me 224 back, since it should never have been allowed to be deposited.

In the 30 days prior to the rolling period concerned, there were no transactions at all.

That simplifies matters substantially - as there is nothing to offset against.

The only other question I would ask, is relative to the limit being introduced, which transactions are before and which are after.

In theory, all of them should be counted - but I have heard of operators that, somewhat dishonestly, only start counting transactions when the limit is activated.

I'm not suggesting this is a reasonable defence by the site, but I am saying it is one they may use.

I do not understand why they have to make this all so difficult, except it makes exactly this sort of situation easier to avoid rectifying.

Absolutely, and why people are sometimes not willing to use responsible gambling tools - either because they are too complicated to understand, or do not function as they should.

Do you really think I'd trust a site with "duration limits" when I get pop-ups telling me I've been logged in for a thousand hours... after logging in 10 minutes ago?