Games errors

[essuk]

There have been a few posts recently concerning alleged game errors....think the recent going ons at Playojo and the article today re Paddy Power.

Perhaps one of the casino reps could enlighten us as to how its determined there has been an error. There are the obvious cases where the payout exceeds the max payout but what about the recent cases? How can a player be sure its genuinely an erot? How is it determined that an error occured. Are there gaming logs that show the game outcome that proves the on screen results are erroneous? What stops fake logs being produced?
What about programing errors ie the game correctly followed its program but the game was incorrectly programmed in the first place So if for instance a programmer made a mistake with the coding and produced a game with a 1000% rtp is that called a malfunction or is a malfinction only where the system deviates from the actually programmed code? To me if they muck up the programming thats not a malfunction thats a programming error that they need to own and pay out on.
Its very easy for casinos to cry malfunction so would appreciate insight from maxd, Jan and Mark etc.

 

[mulven]

There have been a few posts recently concerning alleged game errors....think the recent going ons at Playojo and the article today re Paddy Power.

Perhaps one of the casino reps could enlighten us as to how its determined there has been an error. There are the obvious cases where the payout exceeds the max payout but what about the recent cases? How can a player be sure its genuinely an erot? How is it determined that an error occured. Are there gaming logs that show the game outcome that proves the on screen results are erroneous? What stops fake logs being produced?
What about programing errors ie the game correctly followed its program but the game was incorrectly programmed in the first place So if for instance a programmer made a mistake with the coding and produced a game with a 1000% rtp is that called a malfunction or is a malfinction only where the system deviates from the actually programmed code? To me if they muck up the programming thats not a malfunction thats a programming error that they need to own and pay out on.
Its very easy for casinos to cry malfunction so would appreciate insight from maxd, Jan and Mark etc.

Either the game studio identified it first and notified aggregates/clients OR a casino noticed anomalous results and reported it to the game studio who then reported it to aggregates/clients.

The language used in terms and conditions surrounding malfunctions encompasses stuff like this so unfortunately it's not possible to have a GOTCHA from that.

I think the main thing needed is the provider making an explainer for what happened exactly. Without it being spelled out clearly they are just going to think they've been screwed.

Players aren't going to notice when they keep winning, they'll just think they are having a good streak. The casino will probably probably have real time return analytics and notice that the numbers on a freshly added game are outwith the standard expectations.

(Also this is the part where you call me an employee of playojo or just naive @essuk)

 

[essuk]

Doesnt answer the question though

 

[mulven]

Doesnt answer the question though

I'd like to find out what happened and that question still hasn't been properly answered.

As for how it was discovered, that doesn't need answering as it could only have happened a few ways like I mentioned. Game studio finds the issue themselves or they get report(s) from casinos which lead to an audit/check where they identify the issue.

The emails sent to players explaining the problem were unsatisfactory to me as they kept everything vague and didn't go into much detail, easily fuelling conspiracies among the frustrated players

If I recall correctly, the faulty update was live for 2-3 days which leads me to believe a casino reported the issue after noticing anomalous analytics. Once the problem was identified by the provider it was then confirmed.

One thing I did find odd is the only place I found discourse regarding the game was on playojo, I tried to look at other sites and other SoN properties but couldn't see anything. I haven't looked since first coming across the other thread but it was quite odd.

 

[salmonhell11]

There´s been errors and people were able to win alot? Tell me what game and i go there fast, i was unlucky on the launch of Cosmic Fortune once, dont want it to happen again

 

[essuk]

My question was more generic as opposed to case specific. Trying to understand what constitutes a malfunction vs a programming error and what protections players have vs false claims being made bearing in mind game studios have a vested interest in the outcome ie if they made a programming error that will cost casinos millions then clearly they have an incentive to declare it a malfunction.

 

[L&L-Jan]

cry malfunction

barely happens, had one recently and the one before that I cant remember.

Perhaps you can mention providers that pop out in these cases because the providers we have go really smooth. Or bad integration at providers side.

i was unlucky on the launch of Cosmic Fortune once, dont want it to happen again

Hahaha, betsafe back in the days? They took the game down

 

[essuk]

There´s been errors and people were able to win alot? Tell me what game and i go there fast, i was unlucky on the launch of Cosmic Fortune once, dont want it to happen again

Prey tell more please

 

[salmonhell11]

My question was more generic as opposed to case specific. Trying to understand what constitutes a malfunction vs a programming error and what protections players have vs false claims being made bearing in mind game studios have a vested interest in the outcome ie if they made a programming error that will cost casinos millions then clearly they have an incentive to declare it a malfunction.

Well you are on to something here. you have your finger on it. let me spell it out, we cant do sh`X#t haha

 

[salmonhell11]

barely happens, had one recently and the one before that I cant remember.

Perhaps you can mention providers that pop out in these cases because the providers we have go really smooth. Or bad integration at providers side.


Hahaha, betsafe back in the days? They took the game down

HAha yeah, i saw people winning the jackpots left and right, while i spun and spun and won jacksquat

 

[L&L-Jan]

HAha yeah, i saw people winning the jackpots left and right, while i spun and spun and won jacksquat

I remember that, they got it exclusive for 2 weeks ahead of launch and every player won jackpots.... the gold old days

 

[mulven]

My question was more generic as opposed to case specific. Trying to understand what constitutes a malfunction vs a programming error and what protections players have vs false claims being made bearing in mind game studios have a vested interest in the outcome ie if they made a programming error that will cost casinos millions then clearly they have an incentive to declare it a malfunction.

For properly licenced places there should definitely be some proper 3rd party that confirms stuff like this so it's transparent for all involved.

I think additional legalese usually covers the casino to any technical discrepancy, literal definitions notwithstanding.

They don't need to declare it a literal malfunction, if they made an error that massively affected the slots outcomes then it should most definitely be covered by malfunction related terms as it's unfair to the casino. As much as I'd like to say otherwise, for all intents and purposes to the player a malfunction causing them to win too much and a coding error causing them to win too much are the same thing.

 

[essuk]

barely happens, had one recently and the one before that I cant remember.

Perhaps you can mention providers that pop out in these cases because the providers we have go really smooth. Or bad integration at providers side.


Hahaha, betsafe back in the days? They took the game down

Clearly it does happen though so are you able to shed some light on what constitutes a malfunction vs a programming error on the game studios part and how players are protected against false claims. Can studios call a programming error a malfunction? In playojos recent case the postings suggest that the rtp was wrongly set but is that a malfunction? Isnt rtp anyway something that is a product of the programming rather than being directly set?

@EGO can you provide anylight as to why it was declared a malfunction and winnings withheld?

without wanting to repeat myself if a game follows its program 100% correctly but the outcome is different from what was intended because of a programming error by the studio is that a malfunction. I remember a bricks and mortar casino manager telling me once about a game with a £4000 jackpot. However he said the games studio wrongly programmed it to think it was a £500 jackpot so it was paying 4000 thinking it was only paying 500 hence was paying jackpot way too much. I remember seeing youtube vidoes of people winning multiple jackpots very closely together. It was a leading studio so the manager said they had to make good the losses to the casinos.

 

[essuk]

For properly licenced places there should definitely be some proper 3rd party that confirms stuff like this so it's transparent for all involved.

I think additional legalese usually covers the casino to any technical discrepancy, literal definitions notwithstanding.

They don't need to declare it a literal malfunction, if they made an error that massively affected the slots outcomes then it should most definitely be covered by malfunction related terms as it's unfair to the casino. As much as I'd like to say otherwise, for all intents and purposes to the player a malfunction causing them to win too much and a coding error causing them to win too much are the same thing.

Yeah but thats the point isnt it and if so how is that fair. I get it when the payout is above the max or where the image on the screen doesnt match the results in the logs. But isnt a programming error their own fault that they have to own? Or where do you draw the line? The rtp was supposed to be 96% but it came in at 99.5% so lets cry malfunction? And what about where it comes in too low? Are they going to refund losses?
I found the arguments in the Paddy Power case interesting.

 

[mulven]

Clearly it does happen though so are you able to shed some light on what constitutes a malfunction vs a programming error on the game studios part and how players are protected against false claims. Can studios call a programming error a malfunction? In playojos recent case the postings suggest that the rtp was wrongly set but is that a malfunction? Isnt rtp anyway something that is a product of the programming rather than being directly set?

@EGO can you provide anylight as to why it was declared a malfunction and winnings withheld?

without wanting to repeat myself if a game follows its program 100% correctly but the outcome is different from what was intended because of a programming error by the studio is that a malfunction. I remember a bricks and mortar casino manager telling me once about a game with a £4000 jackpot. However he said the games studio wrongly programmed it to think it was a £500 jackpot so it was paying 4000 thinking it was only paying 500 hence was paying jackpot way too much. I remember seeing youtube vidoes of people winning multiple jackpots very closely together. It was a leading studio so the manager said they had to make good the losses to the casinos.

Just to clarify the RTP wasn't set incorrectly, changes made to the code caused the game to exceed the stated RTP. If R Franco use real reels and maths models, a small change to something can have a big knock on effect.

This seems to have been caught well but in cases where the players and/or bad actors withdraw before the problem is identified, leaving the casino with big holes in its pockets it makes sense for the provider to make them whole. If that was an AWP I wonder if @ChopleyIOM knows about it.

 

[mulven]

Yeah but thats the point isnt it and if so how is that fair. I get it when the payout is above the max or where the image on the screen doesnt match the results in the logs. But isnt a programming error their own fault that they have to own? Or where do you draw the line? The rtp was supposed to be 96% but it came in at 99.5% so lets cry malfunction? And what about where it comes in too low? Are they going to refund losses?
I found the arguments in the Paddy Power case interesting.

I agree that a small increase in RTP should be owned and players should not be penalised. Something like 3.5% increase is extremely small and whilst casinos would be within their rights to do something, it wouldn't be worth the bad reviews and fuss over what is essentially a very small change. A response like this is only understandable if the issue with the game completely broke it, I'm talking 200% RTP etc

 

[essuk]

Just to clarify the RTP wasn't set incorrectly, changes made to the code caused the game to exceed the stated RTP. If R Franco use real reels and maths models, a small change to something can have a big knock on effect.

This seems to have been caught well but in cases where the players and/or bad actors withdraw before the problem is identified, leaving the casino with big holes in its pockets it makes sense for the provider to make them whole. If that was an AWP I wonder if @ChopleyIOM knows about it.

As I understand it you dont set rtp so to speak - its a derivative of the games programming. Obviously in reality they set the programming to achieve a desired rtp. Unless Im mistaken. Proof is that games often state observed rtp over x games was y%. If the rtp was programmed as opposed to being a derivative of programming then how could they state it like that?
So what that actually means if im correct is that the rtp was actually arguably mistated. Hence my point the rtp wouldnt be wrong. Rather it would be the case that they mucked up the programming such that the resultant rtp was higher than intended but if rtp is just a derivative of programming then i struggle to see how thats a malfunction. A malfinction is surely where the programming wasnt followed or else what limits are there on the use of declaring malfunctions to avoid payout.
I think a lot comes down to what actually happened. Was the programming correct but then a corruption occured which could be called a malfunction or was the programming always wrong in which case why didnt testing show up the error? Etc etc.

 

[Reelsoffun]

yeah when it’s a slot that over paid they pull it and try and recover as much as they can.

When it’s a game that was found to under pay like the one last year, they fix it update it and sweep it under the carpet.

A game last year had a fault in which if a certain chain of events happened it made it impossible to bonus ( it had persistance mechanic ) After over 12,000 game rounds without a single bonus I was convinced something was up. Reported it, and a couple of weeks later the game was taken down, updated and all progress reset/lost.

All my play should have been voided, resulting in a fair few quid back, I was running at about 67% RTP at the time but no, nothing not even an acknowledgement that there was ever an error.

In this situation players really don’t have any protection at all realistically.

How was I ever going to explain to live chat in a way that they didn’t just assume it was sour grapes of losing on my part?

I won’t name the casino it happened to me on ( even tho they have rep here ) because it wasn’t their fault as I didn’t bother wasting my time trying to explain to them for something to be dragged on for what would have been months. Life’s to short for that shit……

 

[missky]

Clearly it does happen though so are you able to shed some light on what constitutes a malfunction vs a programming error on the game studios part and how players are protected against false claims. Can studios call a programming error a malfunction? In playojos recent case the postings suggest that the rtp was wrongly set but is that a malfunction? Isnt rtp anyway something that is a product of the programming rather than being directly set?

@EGO can you provide anylight as to why it was declared a malfunction and winnings withheld?

without wanting to repeat myself if a game follows its program 100% correctly but the outcome is different from what was intended because of a programming error by the studio is that a malfunction. I remember a bricks and mortar casino manager telling me once about a game with a £4000 jackpot. However he said the games studio wrongly programmed it to think it was a £500 jackpot so it was paying 4000 thinking it was only paying 500 hence was paying jackpot way too much. I remember seeing youtube vidoes of people winning multiple jackpots very closely together. It was a leading studio so the manager said they had to make good the losses to the casinos.

Also playmillion.com was a part of this malfunction on the same game just to inform you and they won't respond to the RTP request I have asked for in a email. Also because they are sister sites they sent out the exact same email to me.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Just to clarify the RTP wasn't set incorrectly, changes made to the code caused the game to exceed the stated RTP. If R Franco use real reels and maths models, a small change to something can have a big knock on effect.

This seems to have been caught well but in cases where the players and/or bad actors withdraw before the problem is identified, leaving the casino with big holes in its pockets it makes sense for the provider to make them whole. If that was an AWP I wonder if @ChopleyIOM knows about it.

Compensated AWPs are a whole different ballgame and have been plagued by all kinds of incompetence and corruption over the years, they're also pretty much a uniquely UK proposition.

In the online slots/random games space I am more inclined to accept that game errors/malfunctions/problems are accidents rather than deliberate, after all if they want to make more money they can and will just reduce the RTPs, as we have all borne witness to over the last few years!

Ranting about how utterly completely borked AWPs have been in the UK for decades is one my favourite pastimes on my YT channel I wasn't always quite so animated about it but the stuff that has dropped out of the woodwork over the years thanks to emulation is quite frankly mind-boggling.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

yeah when it’s a slot that over paid they pull it and try and recover as much as they can.

When it’s a game that was found to under pay like the one last year, they fix it update it and sweep it under the carpet.

A game last year had a fault in which if a certain chain of events happened it made it impossible to bonus ( it had persistance mechanic ) After over 12,000 game rounds without a single bonus I was convinced something was up. Reported it, and a couple of weeks later the game was taken down, updated and all progress reset/lost.

All my play should have been voided, resulting in a fair few quid back, I was running at about 67% RTP at the time but no, nothing not even an acknowledgement that there was ever an error.

In this situation players really don’t have any protection at all realistically.

How was I ever going to explain to live chat in a way that they didn’t just assume it was sour grapes of losing on my part?

I won’t name the casino it happened to me on ( even tho they have rep here ) because it wasn’t their fault as I didn’t bother wasting my time trying to explain to them for something to be dragged on for what would have been months. Life’s to short for that shit……

I remember that but I can't for the life of me remember the name of the slot, isn't that the one I was playing as well and it was running OK for me, we were talking about it on the forums here?

Did you ever work out the chain of events and how the game got itself snagged up?

I've never been a fan of persistence mechanics in random games TBH, something like Immortal Romance where you just unlock the characters was OK-ish I suppose, but with the benefit of hindsight one could say it was the start of a slippery slope.

 

[Reefer]

Compensated AWPs are a whole different ballgame and have been plagued by all kinds of incompetence and corruption over the years, they're also pretty much a uniquely UK proposition.

In the online slots/random games space I am more inclined to accept that game errors/malfunctions/problems are accidents rather than deliberate, after all if they want to make more money they can and will just reduce the RTPs, as we have all borne witness to over the last few years!

Ranting about how utterly completely borked AWPs have been in the UK for decades is one my favourite pastimes on my YT channel I wasn't always quite so animated about it but the stuff that has dropped out of the woodwork over the years thanks to emulation is quite frankly mind-boggling.

Did you ever play the microgaming awps chop wonder how they worked, i got a natural
jackpot on gee gee's on 50p spin for 1.5k
But i force jackpotted, treasure ireland, cops n robbers, apocalipse cow, quite a few times using deposit bonuses
Without the deposit bonuses i would of been down on a force cycle
If i got a 100% match bonus i would take that for 100 and dump it all in one of them slots at 1- 2 a spin
On next no deposit bonus i would go back and would drop it to 10p -20p a spin and would get the jackpot within a tenner usually
Most of the time they paid me pack between 120 - 150
Casinos would probably see this as some kind of bonus abuse though and would deffo show a pattern
Example of the awp slots for the us meister's, the music just brought back some ptsd

 

[essuk]

The conclusion I am drawing from the lack of response from the casino reps is that a malfunction is whatever the casinos want it to mean. I wonder why the UKGC hasn't implemented a rule requiring a third party to determine malfunction or not. Unless they have and I'm unaware. Very worrying as any big win can potentially be withheld on the grounds of malfunction.

 

[Reelsoffun]

I remember that but I can't for the life of me remember the name of the slot, isn't that the one I was playing as well and it was running OK for me, we were talking about it on the forums here?

Did you ever work out the chain of events and how the game got itself snagged up?

I've never been a fan of persistence mechanics in random games TBH, something like Immortal Romance where you just unlock the characters was OK-ish I suppose, but with the benefit of hindsight one could say it was the start of a slippery slope.

Yes it was that one.

Didnt work it out 100% as got pulled but it seemed to be if you got to the 5x multi before a feature you wouldn’t get one from that point. So only affected players that didn’t get one before that point. As you got one you wasn’t affected as far as we could tell.

I only found out that it had a “critical” update from someone else ( another casinos CS had confirmed it ) as I had abandoned it, but when they told me I went back to my VS account to look and it had indeed been reset with all persistence reset.

Apparently they had to reset persistence to fix it, so all play lost so really they should have voided all bets to that point.

Very naughty and underhanded, and like I said it’s not VS I blame it’s the provider.

But this is another clear example of providers being underhanded, like with the other one I posted on here about pragmatic and their “down the rails” game that also had to be fixed, yet totally denied there was even an update Even though I had screenshot proof, Jokers.

 

[missky]

I'd like to find out what happened and that question still hasn't been properly answered.

As for how it was discovered, that doesn't need answering as it could only have happened a few ways like I mentioned. Game studio finds the issue themselves or they get report(s) from casinos which lead to an audit/check where they identify the issue.

The emails sent to players explaining the problem were unsatisfactory to me as they kept everything vague and didn't go into much detail, easily fuelling conspiracies among the frustrated players

If I recall correctly, the faulty update was live for 2-3 days which leads me to believe a casino reported the issue after noticing anomalous analytics. Once the problem was identified by the provider it was then confirmed.

One thing I did find odd is the only place I found discourse regarding the game was on playojo, I tried to look at other sites and other SoN properties but couldn't see anything. I haven't looked since first coming across the other thread but it was quite odd.

Did you check playmillion? It was the same situation over there. For me anyway.