Fortune Lounge problems again

Bryan, I would very much like you to pursue this matter further. For the life of me I cannot fathom how this situation has come about. At the very least I'd appreciate some more detail on the issue and some answers on the sums outstanding.
 
mikej28

As previously posted we have established that you are linked to other players. It is our policy to lock such accounts as it constitutes fraud.

You purchased a total of $740, cashed in $1 971 and actually received $1 317 after we managed to stop some checks when we locked your account. No other refunds will therefore be made to you.

It is not in our interest to lock any accounts unecessarily and we therefore try to be absolutely sure of our facts before we do so. We have made some errors in the past and those we were quite prepared to rectify and even compensate players for the inconvenience. In your particular case, I gave you the benefit of doubt and we investigated your accounts again. The result was the same.

We regret that you hold us responsible for "blackening" your name but, as this issue was raised in a public forum, we had an obligation to this forum and it's members to respond.

VP Operations
Fortune Lounge
 
FL, I am happy that I quit playing with you more than a year ago. There is absolutely no excuse for stopping checks like you have been doing on several occasions without even taking 2 minutes to write the players in question an email informing them about your decision.

(Message edited by valles on August 14, 2003)
 
This situation is getting more and more ridiculous. On July 15th your Player Security division emailed me to inform me that my accounts had been locked due to 'fraudulent related activities'. As I pointed out in may first post on this matter your email added 'Our records show that you purchased a total of $525 on all your casino accounts, and the total cashins paid to you amounts to $1256. Based on the purchase to cashin ratio, your total purchases of $525 will not be refunded.'
You now say, quote: 'You purchased a total of $740, cashed in $1,971 and actually received $1,317 after we managed to stop some checks, when we locked your accounts.' Perhaps you could explain how the totals have changed since my accounts have been locked?

Do you really think I would be continuing to protest my innocence on this forum if I'd already
defrauded you of $1,317?

For the record in January and February 2003 I purchased a total of $335 across my three accounts. I cashed in a total of $745. In July 2003 I purchased $300 across all three accounts and cashed in a total of $694 ($654 minus Neteller bonuses). So, as previously stated, the total purchases are $635 and total cashins $1439.
You cancelled cheques to the value of $177, $222 and $255 (see your email to me of 29th July). So in effect I have received a total of $410 in winnings from January/February which has been somewhat offset by the $654 you have confiscated from me since. I have received nothing else from you. I don't know where you sent the $1,317 (or was it $1256?) but it didn't come to me. Have you investigated this thoroughly? How can you be sure I was responsible?

My problem all along with you is that you clearly have not got to the bottom of this issue.
Someone has linked accounts to my accounts and appears to have defrauded you as a result if we can believe your figures. How many more times do I have to say that I have one account at each of Royal Vegas, 7 Sultans and Vegas Palms. I have deposited twice at each casino, played twice at each and then played out additional wager requirements relating to Neteller bonuses at Royal Vegas and Vegas Palms.
Only one of us seems to have our facts straight here. I repeat if this can happen to me it cannot happen to someone else. I will continue to
protest my innocence until the truth emerges.
 
It sounds like FL is saying that you may have multiple accounts under different player names or something.

Wim, maybe you can elaborate on what exactly you mean by "you are linked to other players". That may help explain why he was locked out.
 
No I don't understand it either. I take it that 'shared identifiers' means that some of the information (name, address, email address, IP address, credit card, Neteller account) I provided when I opened my three accounts appears elsewhere in other accounts. But why? Surely this is easily detected.
I'm guessing this whole affair revolves around the $11 that was in my Royal Vegas account, which I thought was the Neteller related cashin returned to my account. How did that $11 get there? It suggests that someone else had had access to my account. I could understand it if someone had made deposits from my credit card and then used that money to try and win more. But that didn't happen.

FL has been particularly unhelpful and their only contribution has been to keep repeating the charge. And today's post with a whole different set of figures has just thrown the whole competence of the investigation into doubt.

What really gets me is that they lock my accounts and confiscate deposits and winnings on the basis of allegations of fraud that they cannot be sure I had any part in. They then say I received monies gained fraudulently without knowing for sure that it was I who received them and use this as a basis for confiscating my deposits and winnings. They are just recouping from me, the innocent victim of this, sums stolen by somebody else. They also rely on the fact that I cannot prove I didn't collude in this
and that it's really their word against mine. The only just solution is to return my deposits.
 
It'll be interesting to see what Bryan makes of this. I don't think FL claim multi IDs on a wing and a prayer.
 
valles: Please note mikej28's posting where he indeed mentions the notification he received from us.

The account was locked due to mikej28 being linked to other players who are playing from the same computer. All these players share the same purchase and play patterns which confirms the link further.

Mikej28 claims that we cannot substantiate our claims that he has been attempting to defraud our casino. He, on the other hand, can also not prove that he did not attempt to defraud us and that he is not linked to the other players. In this case, we are confident that we are correct and we excercised our right of admission to the casino.

He has already received more than his deposit (which he is claiming back over and above the winnings he has already been paid). We are not going to refund his deposit.

Our Player Security Manager has been trying to contact mikej28 telephonically but has been unable to get hold of him. He has sent him an e-mail explaining the purchases and cash-ins in detail and we are quite prepared to publish proof of the checks and refunds back to his credit cards which he claims he has not received.

Again, if we are wrong, we are wrong and we will do everything necessary to rectify the situation. We did not take this particular stance without very careful consideration and enough proof to convince us that it is not in our interest to accommodate accounts from this player and those associated with him.

Everyone knows that business is tough and that it is suicidal to lock just every account you regard as being suspicious without proof (or risk the negative publicity as in the case of this thread).
In this case we stand by our decision.

VP Operations
Fortune Lounge
 
It's nice to get some detail on this matter at last. There are a couple of points I still don't understand. When you say I'm being linked to other players who are playing from the same computer do you you mean we're all playing from the same computer or that this group of players uses the same computer? Are you suggesting that I am in concert with these players or that we are just linked by purchase and play patterns?

As far as the figures you have quoted are concerned I see that you are also including play at Desert Dollar and Vegas Towers. Since these
casinos have never been mentioned in this context before it is hardly surprising the figures didn't make sense to me. I still don't see where the $525 you originally quoted comes from but I'm assuming that this was a mistake.
I freely accept that I have played at all five casinos but I don't see how this constitutes fraud.
 
Have other players played any of the casinos on your computer?

I've not heard anything from Wim for a while. I've had to keep resending copies of emails to prove I was sent a promotion for three accounts but nothing has been done. I only got the bonus in one of them. This should have been sorted out six weeks ago.

They don't seem to be able to find out who they send promotions to even though each of the promotional emails had my name and account number!

He also said some guy who emailed me asking for help was in a Russian syndicate but he was in Canada! They had confiscated his deposits and winnings.
 
I forgot that about three weeks ago he finally emailed me saying he'd arranged to have the player's deposits refunded (these purchases were not recent at all):


"I was really under the impression that I got back to you on the issue with [player's name removed].

We can, unfortunately, not re-open his accounts but I have arranged for his
purchases to be refunded back to his credit card.
"


I think Wim said he was linked to 140 players too!

By the way, I've just resent promo emails once again to Wim as I didn't receive a reply (I last sent them 9 days ago). I only got the bonus in 7sultans and but not in Vegas Villa or Vegas Palms.

(Message edited by Sirius on August 16, 2003)
 
No, I'm the only person who uses my computer, which I acquired new in March. This also applied to my previous computer (on which I played in January and February). I have no knowledge of the other players they mention. Of course it is entirely possible that my purchase and play patterns might be similar to theirs, but surely this could apply to many players. Since that would just be circumstantial evidence I'm assuming they believe they can link us in some other way. I await further details.
The crazy thing is that if they'd agreed to discuss the matter with me in the first place I wouldn't have felt the need to air it on this forum and the ridiculous guessing game as to what exactly they were accusing me of could have been avoided.
Desert Dollar and Vegas Towers were never mentioned and of course don't appear on the FL web site so I had no idea they were including them in their figures.
 
What is it about this group? If security is so good then how come it cant pick up multiple users on a computer right away? My wife set up a play money account at paradise poker to learn omaha H/L when i already had one for real money. She didnt know any better. Before she could even play we were both locked out. I got that corrected, she can play on my computer but only for play money. I feel sure this technology is openly available. Even if security picked up multiple users by allowing him to play and play, and wait until cashout to bring this out is wrong. You accepted his deposit, it seems he played a while with your group since January, if nothing was ever charged back it makes no sense. It's win win for the casino. If you lose they take it, if they win you dont pay. Is it that multiple users only matter when they win? If this guy lost and lost i doubt they would have refunded his money cause there were multiple users on his computer. Did the so called other users charge back? There again thats something security should have stopped right away, not wait 6-8 months to decide this person is winning, time to use an excuse not to pay. This group seems to have the highest number of complaints of any online group, and certainly almost all of the MG complaints. Any casino that accepts a signup, accepts a deposit, deposit clears, and allow players plays for months must pay winnings. Even if there was some T&C that was broken because its inexcusable to allow someone to lose, but when they win use the T&C excuse.
 
Fortune Lounge Manager... you have no idea how much money you,re losing due to the bad press you,re getting here and elsewhere on the internet. Good online forums like this can run your business right into the ground. Why would you think you can treat people like shit and expect no repercussions? I think most people do their homework before depositing money into an online casino, and the ones that don,t, learn the hard way by falling prey to businesses like yours.
 
tim5ny:

We are well aware of the effect of these postings in the forum and naturally we are concerned.

Do you expect us to make pay-outs to players who have deliberately defrauded us ? In this case someone who has already received more than his purchases back from us ?

I have stated several times before: If we are wrong we are wrong and will gladly admit it. If a player has been treated unfairly or has suffered unecessary inconvenience, we will compensate him.

It is unfortunate that, when we stand our ground, we are seen as treating players like s**t. When we supply a direct and firm reply we are seen as being arrogant.

Any casino that does not have adequate fraud control processes in place runs the risk of losing their merchant account and you do not have any idea of the magnitude of on-line fraud we are dealing with on a daily basis. By protecting our merchant account we also protect our players.

pokeraddict and sirius: I will contact you regarding the above issues.

VP Operations
Fortune Lounge
 
Casinos should be taken to task on the forums, and lose business as a result, for their wrongdoing. They should NOT be BULLIED into taking an inappropriate course of action when they are NOT in the wrong, by players trying to pull a fast one. Do not assume Mike is in the right by default simply because he's the player.

If Mike is in the right, FL had better apologise for their mistake and recompense him. If Mike is a fraudster, I hope Bryan will disclose his personal details and publically humiliate him to the maximum possible. Fraudsters are entitled to ply their trade, but they are NOT entitled to any backup when things go cock-eyed.

I've played here for over two years now, and the only slight irritation I've suffered was rather pointlessly being asked for security documents recently. Other than that, I give them a clean bill of health, and rate them as one of the best MG outfits out there.
 
Your point is understood Sir!, and I am glad to see that you are concerned enough to reply at this forum. We....."the players".. are already playing against a sizable house edge when we enter a casino, and we all know that. When I read a complaint from one or two people against a casino, I usually don,t make any judgements at that point. The player may just be someone trying to scam... or just a sore loser. But when there are numerous complaints about non-payment for wins, over and over, what do you think a person is going to think? Can everyone be wrong? I think you can win some people back by doing the right thing, and by being open to criticism and questions, but for now I think alot of people are spooked. Respectfully, Tim
 
FL quote: 'When we stand our ground we are seen as treating players like s**t. When we supply a direct and firm reply we are treated as arrogant'.

Naturally I would expect the casino to stand its ground when a player claims he or she has been wrongly accused. As for supplying a firm and direct reply I have already made the point that the reason I felt compelled to air my complaint on this forum is because FL refused to discuss it with me either on the phone or by email. This goes to the heart of the way casinos treat their customers. Elsewhere on the forum posters have made the point that customers are often regarded with contempt covered by a thin veil of politeness. It is my experience that it is often very difficult to get casino employees to listen and that often extreme persistence is required in order to gain satisfactory resolution of a problem. In this case all I am seeking is a sufficiently detailed explanation of what it is I am being accused of backed by evidence.
I would respectfully suggest that given the level of online fraud you are experiencing that in your efforts to eradicate it some players are being wrongly accused.
 
FL,
I just read the posts on this subject from beginning to end and I because I went through some major confusion myself recently (a different situation not with FL), I totally felt like I understood exactly how frustrated the OP felt. I want to tell you FL that the whole multiple players using the same account, its just totally confusing to me, I read all of your posts & I still don't get it. I really want to understand what that means. Does it mean that the OP abused the bonus' by signing up under several different names having several different accounts? or does it mean that you believe he allows other people to play at your casino on his account? There have been a few instances where my husband signed up for a casino from his computer and months later I signed up on my computer not knowing he already had & it can really get confusing when there's so many casinos. Since he was the only one with a credit card in his name at the time I always signed up under his name. When I finally got a credit card in my name I started signing up under my name and boy did that mess things up even worse because neither one of us could remember who, where or if we signed up. So we would have to send two emails asking if we had accounts. We have since created a spread sheet on excel! The two casinos that this happened at treated us like deadbeat bonus abusers when this really was an honest mistake. I will admit, we were bonus mongers in the beginning, we didn't know anything about how it all worked, we were just new and excited and jumped at any bonus we could find, even bragging when we beat each other to the punch, but we never would have intentionally broken any rules. I don't understand why anyone would jeopardize a possible huge cashout for an extra bonus. Anyway now I am confused about the account situation, am I not to be playing on an account in my husbands name? does this mean multiple user? I have never had any problems with FL myself (if we have an account there? lol) but I have to say, from these posts, FL I just don't see any proof on your part that you have shown. Maybe you did it privately, but if you did you should explain it better because I certainly (as Tim5ny puts it) am spooked. I say this respectfully, & not to seem rude, but it looks like a casino can just say "we think you have multiple accounts" end of story, we don't have to explain it or prove it, the end, you lose. When you pour so much money into these casinos you certainly expect that you will be treated with excellent customer service but unfortunatly I have not seen a whole lot of that due to abusers I assume. Well, maybe the OP did something like what my husband and I did, and if he did its a bummer for him that he won, and yes, you should keep his money if he made the mistake but it sounds to me like he just wanted to know WHY even if it was his fault & to explain what happened clearly. I hope this makes sense because I cant be the only one who is confused about this, ok maybe I can : )
Thanks
Wanda
 
FL I still give you some of the benefit of the doubt that firepay screwed up our issue from months ago. My point of that post is why is it until a cash out, and it sounds like several, to catch multiple accounts. Even sending a check and stopping payment on it. If it was bonus abuse you accuse, how do you know that the players were not legit and different people? If there wasnt a chargeback it must have been legit and different people. That just sounds too unorganized and costly. Was there a chargeback while the check was in the mail? That sounds like the only reason you would cut a check, mail it, then stop payment on it. It sounds like this player is all about having this issue resolved in open forum, or your evidence shown in open forum. Why cant your software pick up multiple users right away? I know you investigate users when they sign up. I was locked out after an hour of playing on your software, only to get it resolved later with an im sorry and bouns which was appreciated at the time and I have seen over and over again your group is open when it screwes up. Your post though that this player cant disprove your allegation there are mulitple users is outrageous though. How would he disprove that? Also, like ive said before, if your security is so good why did it take months to discover multiple users when this is something that seems so easy. Were they on different computers? If so the only evidence you would have is similar payment options. I'm fine with you contacting me in the open forum here. Anything you have to respond to me im fine with.

For the record everyone, if you havent been around a while. FL and I had an issue before from payment. FL and Paradise Poker both contacted me that they had not been paid from Firepay. Paradise took the money right from my player account. FL and I had not done business in months so money wasnt there. Firepay was not cooperative, only sending me emails stating "Your account is in good standing" or "There are no issues involving your account" etc. That account is still open but I dont use it. Firepay never sent through one electronic payment for 1/3 the amount of money that the combined Paradise FL claim was. I couldnt figure out how this could have happened, offered to meet FL halfway since it is more likely Firepay screwed this up since Paradise was saying the same thing. FL insisted I pay them in a way that would expose my bank account to possibly more fraud. FL even called my house at 6-7am, a clear violation of US law. They apoligized later to me for this and in this forum. I offered to mail an int'l money order or send a western union, or send a paypal personally since obviously i cant use that for gambling but person to person is OK but they refused to give me info on how to do that insisting I pay them another way. Since I felt like this was not my issue since I could prove the amount of money was wrong by going to my bank and there was always more then enough money in this money market to cover these transactions and Firepay told me all along this never happened I decided that this was not my issue and I had certainly spent too much time and even offered to compromise that would have made me double pay for something that wasnt my fault just to try and clear my name. Now I hardly ever play at the traditional type casinos, mostly because of this issue. I stick to playing poker at mostly bigger sites and send cash so that this can never happen again. Paradise, Party, Americascardroom, and Victorias poker all are happy to take my international money order or western union and cover the costs. That way I never have to worry about this issue again.
 
I also agree with Caruso about if this is fraud then this player deserves to have the details shown that he is a fraudster. He has invited it. When I had my issue with FL my details were brought out and I had no issue with that, even though I still disagree that I charged anything back, I dont even think thats possible to charge back a electronic debit. I dont assume he is 100% correct but it seems the player has no issue with this evidence being brought out in the open. Player......... do you? I would like to see it.
 
Well, the situation is this. FL has refused to provide me with any more information than they already have. So it seems we have reached stalemate.
 
tim5ny:

Your comments are appreciated and if you have been following the several posts around this theme you will have noticed that we have rectified several issues where we were wrong and we publicly admitted to the fact. This is one of only two cases in the last two months where we have stood our ground because we are convinced that we are not wrong.

I can understand (and I am concerned) that players may feel "spooked" because of this situation. Real, legitimate players should, however, feel comfortable that we are protecting their interests too. The way in which we handled previous issues should also give players the confidence that we, at least, are concerned which is manifested in our open and honest communication and participation in this and other forums.

wanda5:

Casinos generally do not allow more than one account per household. In this particular case, the player opened accounts under his name and then several other accounts were opened thereafter with different names but all playing from the same computer and location. As further verification, play and purchase patterns were also the same. Mikej28 never admitted that he was sharing his computer with any friends or relatives.

pokeraddict:

We are not talking about bonus abuse here. We do not lock players out for abusing bonuses.

In this particular case, mikej28's accounts were opened first. He played, won and cashed in and we processed these cash-ins. Then later, the other accounts were opened and we discovered the link immediately at that time which was also after we paid out another cash-in to him. We then cancelled the check as part of our standard procedure.

Under normal circumstances, we would have refunded his deposits but, as he already received more money from his cash-ins than he deposited, we decided not to refund his deposits as well.

In terms of supplying the full details of this case, we have already supplied enough information without compromising our fraud detection processes. There is certain information we simply cannot publish as it will educate fraudsters to bypass our systems. In this case there are also names of other "players" attached to the information and we are not prepared to publish these as well.

The statement of mikej28 that we have reached a stalemate seems accurate.

His accounts will not be re-opened. We will not be making any further refunds to him. We also feel that we have disclosed enough information regarding this case and that, defending our point, will be a fruitless exercise.

We will gladly continue to participate in any discussions related to our casino group. On the subject of mikej28, however, we regard the matter as closed.

VP Operations
Fortune Lounge
 
I do know (think I know..grin) when you log onto an online casino, make any transactions within the bank, it records your 'computer' ID. And this stays the same unless you f-disk, and install a completely new and different operating system software.

So maybe that is how FL knows (claims to know) there are many accounts linked to one computer...???
 
FL's account of my actions is just not true.
As I have already explained I opened accounts at Vegas Palms in January and at Royal Vegas and 7 Sultans in February. In March I opened an account and played at Vegas Towers and Desert Dollar. During that month I also acquired a new computer. I used this new computer when playing at Desert Dollar. In July I downloaded Royal Vegas, 7 Sultans and Vegas Palms because I had previously played them on my old computer. I had problems starting the download on 7 Sultans so I had to enter my email address and hit 'download' several times. Eventually it downloaded ok. I then reactivated my old accounts. As I've already also pointed out I purchased both these computers new and they have not been used by anyone else. I only have these accounts and I have not nor has anyone else opened other accounts. There has to be some other explanation.
Perhaps somebody more knowledgeable about computing can offer an explanation. Are IP addresses always unique for example?
 

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