Fairest Bonus System around - is Clearplay the answer?

[Igor82]

Hi All,

We're a new casino and haven't been yet put through baptism by fire (waiting to complete our MGS integration - currently running on Chartwell). This is soon to be requested, however I do have a question regarding bonus systems for the community.

We're fortunate enough to have developed our own platform that includes innovative CRM capabilities and in view of incoming MGS I would like to revisit the bonus system we employed.

This isn't going to be the shortest post, but please do read it until the end and comment as I would very much appreciate community's opinion on what is fair and what isn't.

Common Practice
At the moment, majority of systems work by allowing a player x% deposit bonus match and assigning a requirement. This turnover is required to be completed before any winnings can be withdrawn, including winnings from purely deposited funds.

In reality, a player may not need to utilise the bonus funds, yet they will be forced to wager a substantial amount before making their real money withdrawal. I have found this causes many players to opt-out of bonuses at the point of their deposit, not to have their funds locked in.

***************************************

Our Current Practice
We have employed a system which, until it was presented here I thought to be fairer than above. Some have disagreed and I am keen to listen to comments of what is, in your opinion, a reasonable approach (that doesn't leave the casino exposed to heavy abuse, forcing them to change their ways).

We have not tied real funds to bonus funds. Meaning, any bet and its winnings placed from real funds from the very first bet can be withdrawn in full at any point. Bets placed from bonus funds and their wining are locked however, until a full turnover is achieved. This allows the players that are lucky from the start to not have their funds locked in, while players who do end up utilising the bonus will have their winnings locked until turnover. So, if your £10 spin on slot utilised £5 from real funds and £5 from bonus funds, the winning hand will be credited 50% to real funds and can be withdrawn and 50% to bonus funds and will be locked.

The "catch" that had me hung up when presented on this forum: The turnover can only be made using real funds.

I thought this to be quite fair, considering real funds are never locked in. It would in retrospect only make sense that bonus funds remain 'playable only' until enough real fund wager has been achieved. It's also important to note that the turnovers as a result are averaging at x30 bonus only, making the real money volume placed reasonable. Not everyone agrees - fair enough.

If you do comment, I would appreciate it if you could offer advice on what you think about the way it is currently being calculated and if you are in disagreement on its fairness I would like to know why.

The idea is to create a non-abusable, player friendly system that works well for genuine players but is not open to wide abuse and potential swarm of PAB's & bad press in return.

So,

An option going forward

I was looking at MGS' Clearplay system (the old-school one). It's an absolutely brilliant system, baring the fact that it was widely abused by various strategies, employed by entire syndicates of players and caused substantial bonus damage to casinos. ooops

Something had to give and casinos vastly turned to higher turnovers, locked funds, etc.

The MGS's Clearplay system worked 'in analogue' mode, releasing the bonus funds into real funds in £10 increments, as the wagering was being completed. This meant that a player would withdraw any portion of their winnings (turned bonus increments included) while forfeiting the remaining bonus balance. Again, this was vastly abused and very few casino's implement it in its original form today...

I thought that merging the Clearplay, while employing the 'real money only' wager of our current system may be the answer to a relatively non-abusable (other restrictions will need to apply of course) and most importantly, fair bonus approach.

While only real money will count toward (a reasonable) wagering requirement, bonus increments are being unlocked during the wager itself allowing further turnover.(?!)

**********************

It's important to note that both our system and Clearplay worked on the premise that real funds are used first.

Example

Lets take a £100 deposit with a 100% match bonus of £100; with x30 requirement. Slots only for sake of game weight simplicity (100% weight, 95% average RTP). Game play on Clearplay system would imply that for every £300 wagered, a £10 would be unlocked.

Given that a player is playing slots at 95% RTP, he is expected to lose £15 on every £300 wagered, but receive £10 real in return. This would effectively decrease his real money balance by £5 for every £300 wagered.

This effectively allows the to turn the £100 into real money (wager £3000), and while using the bonus money in the process remain with £50 in their balance.

It works out as a continuous 50% cash back on losses, or if you want to look at it differently, it halfs the margin (i'm a bit suspect about stating the latter one).

The questions that spring to mind now are:

1) What happens if you deplete all your real funds and hit a royal flush with bonus funds and bonus balance increases to £4000? having to wager £300 real for every £10 makes it impossible to fully take out your winnings.

- to answer that I would say that casino is not meant to be a place where you can guarantee your winnings. It completely defeats the purpose of it being 'a gamble'. This does however extend the volume of your deposited funds for a longer play-through experience and an opportunity to hit it big using real money.

For example, re-depositing on time (before depleting real balance) would ensure you always gamble real funds, while sustaining a continuous, ongoing cashback on your volume. That way, whenever you hit big, it's not with bonus and it's not locked in.

2) Is using real funds first the answer? Could something be achieved by shifring the balance priorities so that real money / bonus money is used 50/50 with every bet? Hmmm...

It's a given that above is a wobbly concept for now and a lot needs to be explained and questioned - but I'm on a quest (and I'm sure eventually I will find) a fair acqusition and loyalty award program that does not influence/lock in deposited funds and simultaneously works well without exposing the casino to a host of abuse.

What do you think? Was there a time when you thought to yourself I wish the did so and so? The players are the people who really do know best, so I'm keen to hear opinions.

We're young, we just started and its not too late to change things drastically and we have a host of developers on call that can do this.

What is it that you'd like to see?

Thank you CM & Community

 

[lnspin]

Ive Always wanted to see a casino that does not offer any bonuses at all.. Hey you deposit, if you win theres never a problem cashing out.. If you lose, you lose.

Due to no bonuses being given out, i also believe the return % to players can be set higher as your giving less money out.

If the casino wants to throw out a free chip to its better customers, let it be just that a free chip, no wagering, no turnover.

 

[Igor82]

Thanks Inspin,

Regarding fast payouts and fast deposits - any casino that connects them to bonuses is simply playing a fool. One shouldn't influence another.

I like the idea of high RTP, no bonuses. We worked on it a couple of months trying to see whether it would be marketable. I personally think it's an amazing concept.

The problem is that very few providers allow their operators to set the RTP value. Some do - and they can usually be set at 92%, 95% and 98% respectively. Others are just simply at the assigned RTP by the provider.

There's also the issue of table games. To modify the RTP of table/card games one would have to modify the rules creating a whole new set of games. Only big guns such as Betfair have had the resources to do that (Zero Lounge).

It's a brilliant concept - but it would require a partnership between a game supplier and an operator.

Amaya acquiring Inter/Crypto would be in an incredible position to do just this as they will have the experience of two providers and a huge operator.

Hopefully, they'll aim to make a solid step-change and a notable act to put them on the headers and they might do just that

 

[Tirilej]

No matter how many times I read I can't fully understand how it works. I blame the language as usual

I make a deposit of $100 and take a matchbonus.
If I win on my own money I can cash out immediately, I get that and that's great.
Will the bonusmoney I havn't played on still be in my account?
Can I never turn that bonusmoney in to real money no matter how much I play on it (if it's still there)?
Can I keep on depositing real money with the same bonus in, to try and finally clear the bonus so it's my money, or do I have to take a new bonus because I have cashed out once?

 

[chuchu59]

The clearpay system seems fair but if you already have your own funds in the a/c before you claim a bonus these funds are locked together with your bonus unlike the system at rtg where the bonus and your own funds are segregated. If say, I had $100 in my account and then deposited $50 with a 100% bonus the whole $200 is not withdrawable till you meet wrs. I do not like my funds tied to a bonus when it shouldnt.

 

[Igor82]

Amazing questions

Wow lol, brilliant. :notworthy This is what i was hoping for.

Let's see (this is concept I want us to build so nothing is set in stone) -

Common practice system doesn't let you withdraw more you deposit and forfeit the rest.

Our current system will allow you to withdraw more than you deposited as long as the winning bets were made using your own funds. It will forfeit the bonus until its turned but your real money winnings are withdrawable without any condition.

The MGS Clearplay DOES forfeit the remaining bonus when you choose to withdraw. But it also contributes both real and bonus funds toward the turnover. So lets say you wagered a total of £1500 you would have turned £50 real using the example above. Assuming that you broke even with your real money you would withdraw £150 and forfeit £50.

***********************

Now what I was thinking is limiting turnover to real fund only and also releasing the bonus in £10 increments. I need to have a good think about this but i don't think under that condition there is need to forfeit the rest of the bonus on withdrawal. THis way the bonus works as a slow release cashback hmmm that got me a bit stumped - will get back to you on it.

Regarding the other two questions they were tied to this one, but there is something worth saying that bonuses do not stack. They don't stack now, and they wouldn't stack if we changed it. If a player has two or more simultaneous bonuses, they get to choose which bonus they want to wager for. the bets placed start contributing to the chosen bonus. The chosen bonus can be swapped around with another at players choice while the wagering is not invalidated. Consider it a 'pause' button.

 

[Igor82]

Segregated funds

The clearpay system seems fair but if you already have your own funds in the a/c before you claim a bonus these funds are locked together with your bonus unlike the system at rtg where the bonus and your own funds are segregated. If say, I had $100 in my account and then deposited $50 with a 100% bonus the whole $200 is not withdrawable till you meet wrs. I do not like my funds tied to a bonus when it shouldnt.

Our system is segregated also. Real money bets go into real money wins and have nothing to do with a bonus. However, if a withdrawal is made the bonus will be invalidated.

 

[Igor82]

No matter how many times I read I can't fully understand how it works. I blame the language as usual

I make a deposit of $100 and take a matchbonus.
If I win on my own money I can cash out immediately, I get that and that's great.
Yep.

Will the bonusmoney I havn't played on still be in my account?

Questionable, but I'd imagine if real money is used to turn it over - yes. I need to do the math though.

Can I never turn that bonusmoney in to real money no matter how much I play on it (if it's still there)?

Since real money bets count only, then no. You can increase its balance however - but then with the increase in balance, there is an increase in wagering to unlock it all. The downside of Clearplay (even in its original form) is that it releases the bonus amount in segments, each having its own turnover so by increasing the bonus value, you increase the number of segments needed to be released. It's like a loyalty reward program...

Can I keep on depositing real money with the same bonus in, to try and finally clear the bonus so it's my money, or do I have to take a new bonus because I have cashed out once?

Quite honestly, I think that if we go for "real money" to count toward turnover option then the bonus isn't going to be invalidated at withdrawal (don't hold me to it - need to do the math ), so you have two options:

1) when wagering your deposited funds you will unlock some of the bonus (turn it into real balance) - if the luck favours you there will be no need to redeposit as unlocked bonus will contribute toward more bonus to be unlocked.

2) If you make large bets or if you hit a losing streak and deplete real funds, then yes - you will need to redeposit to unlock the rest of the bonus - again, using unlocked bonus funds to unlock more bonus in its progress.

---

I'm thinking on my feet now so I'm going to have to run through this all properly But good, keep'em coming

 

[KasinoKing]

I was looking at MGS' Clearplay system (the old-school one). It's an absolutely brilliant system, baring the fact that it was widely abused by various strategies, employed by entire syndicates of players and caused substantial bonus damage to casinos. ooops

It's not "abuse" if the players stuck to the rules which the CASINO laid out.
If the casinos had blocked some games and put maximum bet limits on others (by using the SOFTWARE to block unwanted bets), then most of those problems would never had occurred.

Regarding your current system; Personally it sounds like a very fair way of giving bonuses - probably better than what a awful lot of other casinos do these days

KK

 

[Igor82]

It's not "abuse" if the players stuck to the rules which the CASINO laid out.
If the casinos had blocked some games and put maximum bet limits on others (by using the SOFTWARE to block unwanted bets), then most of those problems would never had occurred.

Regarding your current system; Personally it sounds like a very fair way of giving bonuses - probably better than what a awful lot of other casinos do these days

KK

Call it 'Advantage Play' then Unfortunately, you cant always get the cooperation of the providers - I know this as we developed out platform so we can plug in multiple providers. We haven't been able to get over the stump of controlling the bet value per spin based on our conditions yet. I'm hard at working on the logistics of it though.

Best many operators can hope for is making the exact type of play that isn't allowed clear in the T&C's and making them prominent that also takes away from marketing the offer - a large number of players will get frightened reading a ton of conditions without actually taking the time to understand if what is written is relevant to them. The experienced ones do - but they aren't as widespread as we'd like to believe.

We need the average punters volume to sustain. Advantageous players pray on this and tend to swoop in and ravage the casino bonuses. I'm not saying its right to use it as an excuse to put in vague 'bonus abuse' terminology, but their behaviour is as predatory toward casinos as is casinos not releasing withdrawals for days (for example), waiting for the players to reverse them. We don't have that for instance, and when we do implement it, it'll be a choice of the player himself on whether to have the feature or not.

What I'm trying to say is that predatory behaviour happens on both sides and the genuine casino punter is who gets locked in the crossfire. It's a sad scenario but a reality. Hopefully with the rapid growth of choice of casinos out there and increase in player experience (and these kind of educational communities), its bound to start changing toward the golden middle again.

 

[jetset]

It's not "abuse" if the players stuck to the rules which the CASINO laid out.
If the casinos had blocked some games and put maximum bet limits on others (by using the SOFTWARE to block unwanted bets), then most of those problems would never had occurred.

Regarding your current system; Personally it sounds like a very fair way of giving bonuses - probably better than what a awful lot of other casinos do these days

KK

Hear, hear!

BTW the poll results are looking interesting.

 

[ShayDrew]

1) What happens if you deplete all your real funds and hit a royal flush with bonus funds and bonus balance increases to £4000? having to wager £300 real for every £10 makes it impossible to fully take out your winnings.

- to answer that I would say that casino is not meant to be a place where you can guarantee your winnings. It completely defeats the purpose of it being 'a gamble'. This does however extend the volume of your deposited funds for a longer play-through experience and an opportunity to hit it big using real money.

For example, re-depositing on time (before depleting real balance) would ensure you always gamble real funds, while sustaining a continuous, ongoing cashback on your volume. That way, whenever you hit big, it's not with bonus and it's not locked in.

Thank you CM & Community

Personally I don't like the sound of this - it will be open (As it is so different) to people depositing, getting into bonus money, winning big then complaining they cant get their money. And as clear as the terms can be, people are used to one way of bonus's being played and this does sound like more of a comp than a bonus (In the "old" sense of the term) so if you were to go down that path you would need to be very clear with your comms.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts though.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Whatever system you decide on in principle should be released for comment, and a challenge laid down to all to "break this" by mathematical and strategic arguments.

You have to think like an advantage player, and what strategies they might come up with to beat the system.

This was the big mistake MGS made with Clearplay. They used long term averages, but did not consider the obvious strategies like an opening bet of the entire balance, which if won was immediately withdrawn and bonus forefeited. It worked because the chances were about 50/50, but for every £100 deposit lost, £200 could be won and withdrawn.

A simple solution might be to JUST run an enhanced cashback program, where every £300 of real money wagered on slots gains enough points to redeem a £10 cashback. There would be no bonus funds available for play, thus removing the majority of "abuse strategies". On average, slots players are still getting £10 back for every £300 wagered, and with no bonus funds in play, there is no reason to worry about restrictions on bet size, games played, etc. A roulette player would just get less than £10 back for £300 wagered, as under the current weighting system, and it would not matter if he put the entire balance on red at the start, for there would not be the leverage from any bonus funds.

This could be an ongoing system and maybe tiered so that players who played more moved up a ladder whereby they got, say, £12 back per £300 instead of £10.

The "free chip" could be "free points", a simple cash gift to players. Other types of promotions could be run that are not about bonuses at all, but about winning cash via extra loyalty points, or prizes based on certain activities, such as biggest payout of the month, most points earned.

The biggest problem would be attracting new players without the traditional SUB, however even this strategy leads to loyal players feeling unappreciated because they never again see an offer like the SUB again, no matter how long they have played, yet see "their" casino giving this offer out to new players with NO track record, whilst loyal players get very little.

Not having an SUB means that players are not having expectations raised at the start of receiving ongoing bonuses, nor are seeing new players getting better treatment.


I know MGS pretty well, so would be able to tell you if any proposed system can be "cracked" by advantage players.

 

[Igor82]

Not having an SUB means that players are not having expectations raised at the start of receiving ongoing bonuses, nor are seeing new players getting better treatment.

I really appreciate the post. This is the kind of constructive feedback I was hoping for. Once question though - excuse my ignorance in terminology - SUB?

 

[Mojack]

SUB = sign up bonus

 

[vinylweatherman]

I really appreciate the post. This is the kind of constructive feedback I was hoping for. Once question though - excuse my ignorance in terminology - SUB?

Sign Up Bonus, also called Welcome Bonus. The current marketing ploy used to attract new players, and most likely to attract the advantage player who will take this bonus, but not stick around.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I like the 3Dice system.

Small bonus upfront (5% with no WR or restrictions), and you earn comp points as you wager which can be redeemed for real cash once you've earned enough of them, again with no WR or restrictions on the bonus cash. Then at the end of the month they give you a bonus based on your deposits during the last month, with just a 5xWR.

What I really like about the 3Dice system is that it basically transforms the bonus model from big enticements upfront with a load of restrictions attached to them, to smaller but more 'real' bonuses after you've deposited and wagered.

It gives the player good real rewards, encourages player loyalty, and protects the casino from abusers.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I like the idea of high RTP, no bonuses. We worked on it a couple of months trying to see whether it would be marketable. I personally think it's an amazing concept.

The problem is that very few providers allow their operators to set the RTP value. Some do - and they can usually be set at 92%, 95% and 98% respectively. Others are just simply at the assigned RTP by the provider.

That would work for me, any casino advertising 97% RTP slots on the basis of being a 'no bonus casino' would get my custom in a flash.

 

[Jasminebed]

I'll pose a couple of questions, just as I might to a CSR when attempting to understand.

I deposit $100, and receive $100 match. I play for quite a long time, and I've now converted $50 of my bonus money, never having dipped into making bets with the bonus funds. I have lost some in the process, and my balance is sitting at $80 cash and $50 bonus.

I hit a bad run, and my balance is now $40, all of it being bonus money.

And I have a $100 hit on a bet with bonus money.

Do I now have a balance of $90 cash and $50 bonus? or is it all bonus? or am I now at $40 cash and back to a $100 bonus?

Scenario two:

I deposit $100 and receive $100 bonus. I bust out from both my real money and from your bonus, only converting $20 of the bonus before busting out. When I next make a deposit, is that previous bonus completely cleared by busting out, or does the wagering carry over?

or I deposit $100 w/ $100 bonus, never dip into bonus, withdraw $150 and forfeit $90, does the $90 continue as wagering required if a new bonus is taken on a subsequent deposit?

 

[Igor82]

That would work for me, any casino advertising 97% RTP slots on the basis of being a 'no bonus casino' would get my custom in a flash.

Yes, however you'd be forced to say goodbye to MGS, Playtech, NetEnt, if i remember right Wagerworks also - i'm not sure about RTG and Crypto, i haven't worked with those. None of those providers allow a casino to set the payout - its one RTP for each game - non negotiable

 

[KasinoKing]

Yes, however you'd be forced to say goodbye to MGS, Playtech, NetEnt, if i remember right Wagerworks also - i'm not sure about RTG and Crypto, i haven't worked with those. None of those providers allow a casino to set the payout - its one RTP for each game - non negotiable

Not true.
Wagerworks and RTG are both known to have different settings the casino can chose from. e.g. Most RTG slots have a 97.5% setting.

I would like to hear your answers to Jasminebed's great questions please!

KK

 

[Igor82]

Thanks Jasmine,

I'm not sure if you're asking in relevance to the 'possible' system or our actual one?

I deposit $100, and receive $100 match. I play for quite a long time, and I've now converted $50 of my bonus money, never having dipped into making bets with the bonus funds. I have lost some in the process, and my balance is sitting at $80 cash and $50 bonus.

That's not possible currently - you would either get the entire 100 out wagering real funds or remain them as bonus. You will be able to do that if we do change.

I hit a bad run, and my balance is now $40, all of it being bonus money.

And I have a $100 hit on a bet with bonus money.

Do I now have a balance of $90 cash and $50 bonus? or is it all bonus? or am I now at $40 cash and back to a $100 bonus?

Scenario doesn't change from any other system in the industry - if you placed 100% of the bet using bonus funds, then entirety of that win is credited into bonus funds - in your example $100.

Scenario two:

I deposit $100 and receive $100 bonus. I bust out from both my real money and from your bonus, only converting $20 of the bonus before busting out. When I next make a deposit, is that previous bonus completely cleared by busting out, or does the wagering carry over?

Carry over to what? If you depleted bonus funds also, there is nothing left (unless I'm missing something)? I'm not sure I understand this part. Can you please clarify what you mean?

or I deposit $100 w/ $100 bonus, never dip into bonus, withdraw $150 and forfeit $90, does the $90 continue as wagering required if a new bonus is taken on a subsequent deposit?

currently: If you deposit $100, don't touch the bonus & win, get $150 out -awarded bonus gets forfeited. New bonus awarded has its own wagering and is not tied into the previous bonus in any way.
potentially: You deposit $100, don't dip into bonus and unlock $10, leaving $90 bonus. You withdraw $150 and now two things may happen:

1) the $90 stays. You wagered enough to get the $10 unlocked and you're free to withdraw it. If you want to unlock more from the $90, you redeposit and continue. If you get the second deposit bonus, you chose which to wager for (as it is now). On the surface it seems rational because if real money must be wagered to unlock the bonus than all we did is create a loyalty point scheme with slow release.

Rather than giving 10 for every 300 wagered though loyalty points we set achievement target (this wasn't the intention when i was looking what we could do - it's just appearing as such) in form of a slow releasing bonus.

Again, looks OK on the surface on things, but i need to see if its abusable and what conditions would need to be placed to avoid the crowd of beatingbonuses etc.

should it prove overly abusable (which i doubt) then the $90 simply gets forfeited. New bonus gets their own wagering and 90 doesn't come into play once its gone.

I'm not sure if above answered your question correctly as i didn't get exactly where you got the $90 from, but i hope one of the two options hit it.

Kindly keep in mind i'm using this as an open forum - id like to know if I'm wrong or if there's a more 'user friendly' way.

I quite like vynilweatherman's post about scrapping bonuses and increase direct in-play cash release (we can also do that) - but i'm weary about losing the vast majority of people who do go after FDB's to try the casino first and then stay if they like the service and speed of payout. We just started and really need the acquisition, especially if we what to set the bar higher. Otherwise we'll just be one of those fleeting casinos that tried to do it differently but failed miserably.

Keep in mind that on here - most of you are seriously pro. You're a minority like it or not

 

[Igor82]

Not true.
Wagerworks and RTG are both known to have different settings the casino can chose from. e.g. Most RTG slots have a 97.5% setting.

I would like to hear your answers to Jasminebed's great questions please!

KK

OK, so based on your post I remember wrong about Wagerworks and i never claimed RTG doesn't set theirs. That still leaves you say goodbye to NetEnt, MGS and Playtech.

I'm not 100% that running such a step change brand without having the backing of some quite popular games would get enough volume and quite honestly wouldn't put all my eggs in that one basket betting it would take off.

We did two things: 1) create a multi-provider platform. The point was to have all the favs under one umbrella. and 2) create our own marketing platform so one bonus/ one common wallet is applied to all providers. We succeeded in both.

One thing I can promise you is that if this casino works well - I'll get a brand going in parallel that's slots only, no bonuses and highest RTP possible on whatever provider can set it at

I can say MGS is here (currently beta testing - will be live after LGA gives the green light) and others I cant speak about for now - but working on having all the big ones.

 

[Igor82]

Jasmine, i understood your second question on re-read. No, the wagering left does not carry over into a new bonus. Each bonus should be individual in its own turnover requirement.

KasinoKing - what you suggest is an amazing concept better suited to be done by a big established brand. I personally think its a phenomenal idea: no bonuses, exclusive loyalty rewards (not even a program - leave it to the casino to decide), fast (12-24hr) cashouts and highest payouts that can be set, wherever they can be set.

Problem is I don't see the masses jumping into it two feet first unless someone like Betfair does it (now that'd be a Betfair casino concept lol) - and without the masses high or any RTP is just as risky for the casino as it is for the player. We need vast volume to survive. In conclusion a great concept that needs an established brand cross-selling the players into it to make it work IMHO.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Thanks for taking the time to engage with us all here BET-AT, I for one do appreciate it.

I'm looking at your website now and trying to understand how your bonus system works (referencing the posts you've made here at CM), specifically I'm looking at the Slot Lovers SUB which has a very nice 200% match and a reasonable 35x WR on the bonus amount only.

(For the record, I'd say I'm a 50/50 player when it comes to bonus and non-bonus play. I like bonus play because it extends the playtime and gives a sort of 'safe' environment to try out a large variety of slots, I like non-bonus play because I can play what I want, how I want, and cashout sharpish if I hit big, so I can see 'both sides of the story' as it were.)

So let's say I open an account with you and deposit £250 of real cash, for a £500 match bonus on the Slot Lovers Bonus, which gives me £750 to play with.

I play out of the £250 real cash element of this balance and this contributes towards my wagering, any wins I get go back onto the real cash amount and continue to contribute to the wagering.

However, at 95% RTP the slots are going to chew up this £250 in relatively short order, even at fairly low stakes, so before too long (and long before I come close to meeting the WR) I'll be out of real cash, and will only have £500 bonus funds to play with, which don't contribute anything to the WR whatsoever?

If I understand that system correctly, that's a pretty horrible place to be in as a player, as I'm now required to deposit again (and again....) to slowly unlock that bonus balance.

I appreciate that if I hit big early on I'm able to withdraw my entire real cash balance and forfeit the bonus, but then what was the point of taking a bonus in the first place if that's my mentality as a player?

Personally speaking the reason I take a SUB or any subsequent bonus at a casino is to extend my playtime, I'm prepared to accept I'll probably be doing well to get my deposit back before I meet the WR, but what I feel I'm 'buying' for that is an extended playtime beyond what I'd get with a straight deposit - your bonus system seems to actively work against that, I don't understand who it's designed to appeal to?

 

[vinylweatherman]

Yes, however you'd be forced to say goodbye to MGS, Playtech, NetEnt, if i remember right Wagerworks also - i'm not sure about RTG and Crypto, i haven't worked with those. None of those providers allow a casino to set the payout - its one RTP for each game - non negotiable

You could get around this as follows.

RTP set in stone at 95%, but you want to offer 97% and no bonuses. You add this extra 2% by making the loyalty point accrual rate 2% of wagering, rather than the current 0.1% to 0.2%.

This could lead to some pleasant surprises for players who have a great session, and then go to see what "scraps" are left behind in the loyalty point balance. With 0.1% they might find £50 worth, but at 2% this would be a chunky £1000, and all cash! This could well make them come back, as they might think they are better off having a free £1000 rather than a couple of 100% up to £500 deposit bonuses where they have to fight for their £1000. You would have to decide whether a 3% margin was enough, but by removing bonus troubles you may find that you make more on this 3% than on a 5% margin coupled with having to deal with issues stemming from bonus complications. The terms and conditions would be much shorter too, and you could use this fact in your marketing.

 

[Igor82]

Thanks for taking the time to engage with us all here BET-AT, I for one do appreciate it.

I really appreciate your post likewise and its for that reason, the challenge, I opened the thread.

I'll try to break things down but I wont necessarily be able to win you over as it's the question I'm also battling with. Lets break down the wagering using your example first (side note: $500 is a misdenomer - Max is 200% match on 500 deposit totalling a 1000, needs a change).

In your example you have £250 real, £500 bonus. At RTP rate of turnover you'll be able to stake £5K taking into consideration you are consistently losing. It's a far cry from £17,500 necessary to turn it over, less than 30%. You now need to deposit another £250, and eventually another £325 losing at the same rate to unlock the £500.

Math tells you the bonus has a substantial negative EV. On that premise, we're quote safe, abusers be gone - but you're a little stumped. It's a frustrating situation to be in as you say so yourself. It's the very reason why I'm looking into options of change.

Before I continue, I would however like to point out a few things: You don't necessarily lose at 95% flat. Your session RTP% (and its tracked, visible in real time) may be higher or lower. If you do win a couple of big hands in the 5K wagered, they are open to you to continue turning toward the bonus at a more favourable rate or pull out. If you do bust out, you can continue playing with the bonus and hit it big needing to redeposit a small amount and still go out positive.

The system IMHO extends your game play also, and provides opportunity to do hit it big with bonus, but give a little in return while grinding down.

Look at the alternative where bonus funds count toward wagering: 200% match wouldn't go for less than what? x50,x60, x70 turnover? (or x30b+d as it became norm) Lets say x60 to be more lenient. Lets say you wagered the remaining £500 at 95% RTP, putting in another £10,000 toward requirement.

You're now 15K wagered, another 15K to go and all is depleted both deposit and real funds. To turn that bonus around you also had to play at positive RTP, at least for a while. At 95% its unachievable looking at both systems, as it should be - as otherwise all casinos would go bust.

You didn't trade a better chance of winning for a worse one, you traded the inability to cash out early for extended chance to hit it big later and manage to grind down to a bonus amount higher in value than what you deposited. Its about the mindset, nothing else as both systems work only if your RTP is over 98%.


Above is relatively irrelevant, as you very aptly put it doesn't appeal to the mindset of a player who did select a bonus. Just wanted to make sure you are seeing both sides of the coin clearly.

Regarding our current system - I needed to step off the ledge safely not to get destroyed through generosity so we retained very safe turnovers. Overly safe even.

However, the end intention is to either:

1) Decrease the turnover of bonuses to 25-28 making the EV gap much smaller. Through wager real first system the turnover shouldn't be much higher than what would be lost to cash out the bonus. Since you're betting real funds it should eventually pay out as 50% cash back on your losses for your first experience IMO.

2) Devise a new system (hence the Clearplay integration question). Lets look at your example again using Clearplay -

You wager £5K using initial deposit. In the process you will unlock about £170 in £10 increments (166.66 i think, but im rounding).
Using the unlocked funds, you wager another 3.5K and in process unlock another £100, You wager another £2K and unlock 60... etc.

By now you have seriously extended your game play, received 150% real money cashback on your deposited losses, while playing and all-while had the opportunity to withdraw fro the very start, should you hit big and never dip into bonus.

Writing this up my mind is almost made up. It's good, it's goooooood (bruce allmighty). I think it even needs a bit of tightening up as its overly generous.

I think I've fairly presented both players and casinos perspective in my posts (although a newbie) to date so I wont stop here. Above, to me at least reads like a dream on surface. There is a downside. Can you see it?

I'm gonna let this sink in before i post further becuase even my head is spinning - i think this is on the right track though. Keen to hear back

 

[Igor82]

You could get around this as follows.

RTP set in stone at 95%, but you want to offer 97% and no bonuses. You add this extra 2% by making the loyalty point accrual rate 2% of wagering, rather than the current 0.1% to 0.2%.

This could lead to some pleasant surprises for players who have a great session, and then go to see what "scraps" are left behind in the loyalty point balance. With 0.1% they might find £50 worth, but at 2% this would be a chunky £1000, and all cash! This could well make them come back, as they might think they are better off having a free £1000 rather than a couple of 100% up to £500 deposit bonuses where they have to fight for their £1000. You would have to decide whether a 3% margin was enough, but by removing bonus troubles you may find that you make more on this 3% than on a 5% margin coupled with having to deal with issues stemming from bonus complications. The terms and conditions would be much shorter too, and you could use this fact in your marketing.

Awesome. I'm honestly stumped.

Ok, get over the acquisition stumping issue on here and i promise you a lifetime loyalty cashback of 50% on losses inccured using the 'bonus free' casino

 

[ChopleyIOM]

You could get around this as follows.

RTP set in stone at 95%, but you want to offer 97% and no bonuses. You add this extra 2% by making the loyalty point accrual rate 2% of wagering, rather than the current 0.1% to 0.2%.

This could lead to some pleasant surprises for players who have a great session, and then go to see what "scraps" are left behind in the loyalty point balance. With 0.1% they might find £50 worth, but at 2% this would be a chunky £1000, and all cash! This could well make them come back, as they might think they are better off having a free £1000 rather than a couple of 100% up to £500 deposit bonuses where they have to fight for their £1000. You would have to decide whether a 3% margin was enough, but by removing bonus troubles you may find that you make more on this 3% than on a 5% margin coupled with having to deal with issues stemming from bonus complications. The terms and conditions would be much shorter too, and you could use this fact in your marketing.

I think that's a fab idea.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I'll try to break things down but I wont necessarily be able to win you over as it's the question I'm also battling with. Lets break down the wagering using your example first (side note: $500 is a misdenomer - Max is 200% match on 500 deposit totalling a 1000, needs a change).

<<< BIG SNIP >>>

I think I've fairly presented both players and casinos perspective in my posts (although a newbie) to date so I wont stop here. Above, to me at least reads like a dream on surface. There is a downside. Can you see it?

Thanks for a comprehensive reply BET-AT, I won't quote your whole post or go through line by line, I understand that from the casino's point of view you want to design a bonus that can't be beaten, and you have to crunch the numbers on that basis.

The more I think about it, the more vinylweatherman's idea is a brilliant one - you could genuinely sell yourself as the highest long term RTP casino on the net. 95% RTP on the slots with a 2% loyalty point accrual for all wagers made, to deliver an unprecedented 97% RTP on your slots in the long term.

(Obviously you'd need different solutions for table games and pokers and suchlike.)

At a stroke you eliminate all those horrible pages of terms and conditions, you give your casino a unique selling point, and you encourage player loyalty and repeat deposits because the players know they're getting a REAL bonus every time they make a wager.

TBH this is actually pretty close to how 3Dice do it now, their bonuses tend to be 'after the fact', you get your comp points and your bonus awards AFTER you deposit and play. This makes it easier for both the casino and the player, because they're all 'paid for' BEFORE they're awarded, unlike the bonus culture we have now where they're 'awarded' up front but with a whole raft of onerous T&Cs attached to them.

 

[Igor82]

Conclusion

I'm gonna let this sink in before i post further becuase even my head is spinning - i think this is on the right track though. Keen to hear back

I think I'll hit the sack, I've addictively (and sadly) been here all day but I really didn't want to let this go unfinished.

In summary, the options are four:

1) Retain what we have but decrease the turnover - some say yay, some make really good point why its meh.
2) Cave into the locked funds and enable bonus for bonus turnover like most others - I set out to make a difference and this isn't really an option.
3) Employ the Clearplay slow release system while retaining real wager only and don't lock in funds.
4) Give a CHOICE between 1, 2 and 3 - we already have a system by which you can choose your bonus package. This way you can choose your type.

We've banged on about option 1 and 3 quite a bit so i'll keep it to the negatives on all 4.

1) Negative is that it kinda defeats the purpose of a bonus 'feel' and doesn't really appeal to the mindset of a player selecting a bonus as it stands right now.

2) It's an utterly rubbish system IMO that had been allowed to get away with for way too long. Real funds staked should be real funds won - no if's or but's about it.

3) Seems really attractive to me on the face of things and can be technologically achievable with very small modification to our platform code. Negative aspect is massive though. Say you depleted the real funds and hit a £300K win using bonus - having it release in increments of 10 wagering real funds makes it impossible to release. That's a huge downer - it's a deal breaker in reality. A customer needs to have in mind to never let the real funds deplete and in process benefit from a continuous cashback. Only way i can think of a resolution of a big bonus win would be to apply a bonus for bonus turnover process on those cases individually and let them turn it over... meh!

4) Choice is always great, but it's overly complicated to offer so much option.

I think no bonus casino just might be the answer for something ;innovative; waiting to happen.

I want to thank everyone who commented - this has been such an educational experience I just cant think why casino managers and decision makers wouldn't spend more time on communities like this - it's great.

I don't want to push a sales pitch on here but i do feel i owe something in return for this completely free feedback - so PM for a free few chips on the casino that you can cash out.

Thanks a real lot to all - I really appreciate the feedback!!

 

[Igor82]

Thanks for a comprehensive reply BET-AT, I won't quote your whole post or go through line by line, I understand that from the casino's point of view you want to design a bonus that can't be beaten, and you have to crunch the numbers on that basis.

The more I think about it, the more vinylweatherman's idea is a brilliant one - you could genuinely sell yourself as the highest long term RTP casino on the net. 95% RTP on the slots with a 2% loyalty point accrual for all wagers made, to deliver an unprecedented 97% RTP on your slots in the long term.

I'm also liking it wholeheartedly more by the minute. I don't think it will be a stretch to get behind at all. Thanks once again.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Awesome. I'm honestly stumped.

Ok, get over the acquisition stumping issue on here and i promise you a lifetime loyalty cashback of 50% on losses inccured using the 'bonus free' casino

On an MGS casino with the standard set of games, are you sure about that rash offer

On that premise, we're quote safe, abusers be gone

Don't be so sure


You can still play with the bonus balance, so the "abusers" will be looking at the more advanced strategies.

For starters.

Deposit £100 get £200. First bet, £300 on black (roulette).


This levers the bankroll to £600, £400 of which is cash, and which will count towards WR to unlock the £200 bonus.

A further advantage could be gained through multi-accounting or playing as a syndicate. This leaves you with the same problems as before, abusers and fraudsters targetting the opening offer.

 

[Igor82]

On an MGS casino with the standard set of games, are you sure about that rash offer

LOL I'll cap your withdrawals ... you can only go on the ride if you win THIS much

Don't be so sure

You can still play with the bonus balance, so the "abusers" will be looking at the more advanced strategies.

Multi-accounts aren't an issue as we catch them out extremely fast. Similarities in betting patterns, details, ip locations, any many other influences contribute to a scoring system that worked really well to date.

RE: 100% balance on a wager - i did say at the start that additional conditions must be imposed - such is decreasing the contributing bet value while playing for a bonus, etc.

It doesn't eliminate it, but it does decrease it drastically as presented through a 'raise holy hell- what a rogue rule' thread on beatingbonuses forum.

Expect to see the site down for maintenance tomorrow if anyone is coming online to check it out - you gave me tons to think about.

 

[KasinoKing]

KasinoKing - what you suggest is an amazing concept better suited to be done by a big established brand. I personally think its a phenomenal idea: no bonuses, exclusive loyalty rewards (not even a program - leave it to the casino to decide), fast (12-24hr) cashouts and highest payouts that can be set, wherever they can be set.

It wasn't me!
I never said that - must have been someone else.
I love my up-front cashable bonuses, me!

KK

 

[Jasminebed]

I'm still not entirely clear how things work if I lose my cash and begin playing with the bonus.

Deposit $100, get $100, and wagering is 30x bonus let's say. That's what my MG bonuses are at other places I play mostly. So I need to wager $3000.

Now if I make $1200 in bets and deplete my real funds, I begin to play with the bonus. None of my wagering counts towards release.

If I hit while playing with the bonus, and let's say I get my balance up to $1000. This is all bonus cash? None of the amount above $100 is cash? Is my wagering just the remaining $1800 to release the bonus, or has the wagering risen to 30x $1000, or $30K in bets? Bets that I would have to keep making deposits to work off? How is this a bonus?

Maybe I'm missing the point somewhere.

 

[Igor82]

I'm still not entirely clear how things work if I lose my cash and begin playing with the bonus.

Deposit $100, get $100, and wagering is 30x bonus let's say. That's what my MG bonuses are at other places I play mostly. So I need to wager $3000.

Now if I make $1200 in bets and deplete my real funds, I begin to play with the bonus. None of my wagering counts towards release.

If I hit while playing with the bonus, and let's say I get my balance up to $1000. This is all bonus cash? None of the amount above $100 is cash? Is my wagering just the remaining $1800 to release the bonus, or has the wagering risen to 30x $1000, or $30K in bets? Bets that I would have to keep making deposits to work off? How is this a bonus?

Maybe I'm missing the point somewhere.

The wagering remains $1800 to release the bonus whether you hit $1000, or $10,000 with your bonus balance.

 

[Jasminebed]

The wagering remains $1800 to release the bonus whether you hit $1000, or $10,000 with your bonus balance.

Okay, I can see some appeal in that, depending on how much I win and how much progress I'd made in the wagering, it might be worth another deposit to try and unlock the funds.

Is there a means in the software to track your progress, or must you ask a CSR?

 

[Igor82]

Okay, I can see some appeal in that, depending on how much I win and how much progress I'd made in the wagering, it might be worth another deposit to try and unlock the funds.

Is there a means in the software to track your progress, or must you ask a CSR?

There is a promotion and bonus track bar in-game that tells you how much you have wagered after each bet and how much wager you need to do. It's also graphically represented with a bar that fills from 0% to 100%

In MY BONUSES panel, you can see the same thing listed across all your bonuses that also gives you the exact value (balance) of each bonus.

Igor

 

[Zepher]

Update?

Not heard or seen anything of old Igor since this thread in April..

Any updates yet as to what you ended up deciding to implement on your site? Find it strange that you would ask for all this feedback then leave and not post again..

 

[Igor82]

Not Abandoned

Not heard or seen anything of old Igor since this thread in April..

Any updates yet as to what you ended up deciding to implement on your site? Find it strange that you would ask for all this feedback then leave and not post again..

I havent abandoned you We've been busy bringing MGS on board.

I did in fact implement clear play and a few other features on bet-at and in the meantime we started working on SlottyVegas.com pushing all game RTP% up by a few percent. That will be going live end of november.

You can always PM me if you miss me though