- Joined
- Mar 13, 2008
- Location
- Ontario
Let me preface this post by stating that I am not a lawyer, and nothing I say is meant to be taken as legal advice. If you need a lawyer, get a lawyer. But a decade of experience as a legal secretary has given me practice in reading the "fine print" of contracts and agreements.
Special thanks you Enzo who has granted me permission to quote from 3Dice's Terms of Service. Quotes from their terms of service are in green for ease of reading.
Oh, and to post winning screenshots (should I ever have one) because such actions constitute a breach of Section 8 of their terms of service:
Researching this, I thought I would look at the rogued casino Joyland's Terms of service for comparison. Quotes from their Terms of Service will be in blue.
It appears to be competently written, and probably by a lawyer and quite possibly enforceable.
It is considerably lengthier than 3Dices, and much more legalese, but there is not much out of the ordinary as yet. But contrast their section on the same issue. It basically says the same stuff in more words, as far as I can tell.
[INDENT]"4. LICENCE TO USE SOFTWARE
We hereby grant you a personal, non-exclusive, non-transferable right to use the Software, solely for playing in the Online Casino, in accordance with the following provisions.
4.1 This license applies only to the Object Code of the Software (i.e., the compiled, assembled, or machine executable version of the Software) and does not grant you any rights whatsoever with respect to the source code of the Software.
4.2 This license does not apply to certain territories which are identified in the following paragraph, of which YOU SHOULD NOT BE A RESIDENT AND FROM WHICH YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO ACCESS OR USE THE ONLINE CASINO AND/OR THE WEBSITE AND/OR THE SOFTWARE, OR TO MAKE ANY DEPOSIT OR RECEIVE ANY WITHDRAWAL.
This list may be changed by us from time to time and IT IS YOUR DUTY TO CONSULT AND CHECK REGULARLY THIS END-USER AGREEMENT IN OUR WEBSITE REGARDING ANY CHANGES TO THIS LIST.
THE EXCLUDED TERRITORIES ARE AS FOLLOWS:
THE UNITED STATES AND ITS TERRITORIES, ISRAEL, ANTIGUA AND BARBUDA, NETHERLANDS ANTILLES, ESTONIA, CYPRUS, KAHNAWAKE, BULGARIA, HONG KONG, PHILIPPINES, AFGHANISTAN, CUBA, IRAN, IRAQ, LIBYA, SUDAN, SYRIA AND TURKEY.
4.3 You are not permitted to and will not permit or assist others to:
4.3.1 install or load the Software onto a server or other network device or take other steps to make the Software available to any other person via any form of "bulletin board", online service or remote dial-in, application service provider services, internet services provider services, timesharing arrangements, outsourcing services or bureau services;
4.3.2 sub-license, assign, rent, lease, loan, transfer or copy the Software or your licence to use the Software, or make or distribute copies of the Software;
4.3.3 translate, reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble, adapt, modify, create derivative works based on, or otherwise modify the Software;
4.3.4 copy or translate any user documentation provided 'online' or in electronic format;
4.3.5 enter, access or attempt to enter or access or otherwise bypass the applicable security system or interfere in any way (including but not limited to robots and similar devices) with the Online Casino or the Website, or attempt to make any changes to the Software and/or any features or components thereof.
4.4 You do not own the Software. The Software is owned and is the exclusive property of the licensor, a third party software provider company (the "Software Provider"). The Software and accompanying documentation which have been licensed to us are proprietary products of the Software Provider and protected throughout the world by copyright law and other intellectual property law. Your use of the Software does not give you ownership of any intellectual property rights in the Software or any other rights in or with respect to the Software, except for the right to use the Software as expressly provided in this Agreement. This Agreement applies only to the grant of a license to use the Software.
4.5 Any trade marks, service marks and/or trade names used by us on the Website from time to time (the "Trade Marks") are the trade marks, service marks and/or trade names of ours or our affiliates or licensors, and we and/or such entities, as applicable, reserve all rights to the Trade Marks. In addition, other content on the Website, including, but not limited to, the Software, images, pictures, graphics, photographs, animations, videos, music, audio and text (the "Site Content") belongs to us or our affiliates or licensors and is protected by copyright and/or other intellectual property rights. You hereby acknowledge that by accessing and using the Online Casino and the Website you obtain no rights in or to the Trade Marks or the Site Content and must not use them without our prior written consent.
4.6 THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT ANY WARRANTIES, CONDITIONS, UNDERTAKINGS OR REPRESENTATIONS, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, STATUTORY OR OTHERWISE. WE AND THE SOFTWARE PROVIDER, AND ALL OF OUR AND THEIR AFFILIATES AND RELATED PARTIES, HEREBY EXCLUDE ALL IMPLIED TERMS, CONDITIONS AND WARRANTIES (INCLUDING ANY WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY, SATISFACTORY QUALITY AND FITNESS FOR ANY PARTICULAR PURPOSE), AND DO NOT WARRANT THAT THE SOFTWARE WILL MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS.
4.7 NEITHER WE NOR THE SOFTWARE PROVIDER, NOR ANY OF OUR OR THEIR AFFILIATES AND RELATED PARTIES, WARRANT OR GUARANTEE (1) THAT THE SOFTWARE WILL BE NON-INFRINGING, (2) THAT THE OPERATION OF THE SOFTWARE WILL BE ERROR FREE OR UNINTERRUPTED, (3) THAT ANY DEFECTS IN THE SOFTWARE WILL BE CORRECTED, (4) THAT THE SOFTWARE OR THE SERVERS ARE FREE OF VIRUSES AND BUGS, OR (5) THE PRIVACY, SECURITY, AUTHENTICITY AND NON-CORRUPTION OF ANY INFORMATION TRANSMITTED THROUGH, OR STORED IN ANY SYSTEM CONNECTED TO, THE INTERNET.
4.8 NEITHER WE NOR THE SOFTWARE PROVIDER, OR ANY OF OUR OR THEIR AFFILIATES AND RELATED PARTIES, WILL BE LIABLE TO YOU OR TO ANY THIRD PARTY FOR ANY COSTS, EXPENSES, LOSSES OR CLAIMS ARISING OR RESULTING FROM COMMUNICATIONS OR SYSTEM ERRORS OCCURING IN CONNECTION WITH THE SETTELMENT OF ACCOUNTS OR OTHER FEATURES OR COMPONENTS OF THE SOFTWARE. IN THE EVENT OF SUCH ERRORS, WE WILL FURTHER HAVE THE RIGHT, BUT NOT THE OBLIGATION, TO REMOVE ANY RELEVANT GAMES FROM THE SOFTWARE AND THE WEBSITE AND TAKE ANY OTHER ACTION TO CORRECT SUCH ERRORS.
4.9 The Software may include confidential information which is secret and valuable to the Software Provider and/or to us. You are not entitled to use or disclose that confidential information other than strictly in accordance with the terms of this Agreement."[/INDENT]
Says pretty much the same thing, and is non at all unusual. Most licensing agreements for software, not just casino software have the same sort of clause.
Let's keep reading legalese at Joyland.
Okay, now they will only allow you to withdraw a maximum of $9,000 per month, but they tell you pretty clearly, and Casino Rewards where I play has a cap of $4000 weekly, and other casinos have caps too.
Standard stuff until:
Contrast that with 3Dice's:
As a legal secretary I NEVER prepared any contracts that did not indicate the jurisdiction, nor to the best of my knowlege agreed to one. If a contract lacks a clause indicating jurisdiction, to the best of my knowledge, it is usually held to be the jurisdiction in which the contract was signed.
Oh, yes Joyland does have such a clause. I've read on further. Bolding mine
Now what does that mean? That no matter if the court in London orders them to pay a player winnings, they can just sue you for that amount in another country? Maybe one that will support clause 9.3? Certainly not an expert in international law, so if anyone is, please chime in.
The remainder of the agreement is again pretty standard stuff as far as I can tell.
I am certainly not implying that contracts that are long or boring are invalid or all fraudulent. But I am saying read every bloody word of any contract. I actually had expected to find nothing out of the ordinary at Joyland. And agreements that are not "legal" sounding enough actually worry me a bit.
And just because an agreement does not include anything as outrageous as Joyland's, doesn't been that a company will honour their contract with you.
And if you are ever told "we've never enforced such a clause" in regards to a contract, have them delete the clause from the contract. This actually happened to me when I was purchasing a new furnance, and the salesman called the office, and the clause was deleted and initialled by both parties.
I am sorry this post is so long, but I couldn't find a shorter way to present this, and hope you find it of value.
And both 3Dice and Joyland's terms of service state that they can change their terms of service at any time without notice. My prepaid credit card informs me that Fee Changes will be posted on their website ten days in advance of such changes. Just the fees, not the whole agreement.
Again, I am not a lawyer, so do not ask me for any legal advice. Hire a lawyer. In my experience, its often money well spent. And especially if large sums are involved. Most lawyers will not charge much to review a contract.
Hope you have found this of value.
Special thanks you Enzo who has granted me permission to quote from 3Dice's Terms of Service. Quotes from their terms of service are in green for ease of reading.
Oh, and to post winning screenshots (should I ever have one) because such actions constitute a breach of Section 8 of their terms of service:
The user acknowledges and agrees that all content and materials on this site are protected in the widest sense.
Therefore, it is not allowed for the user to copy and or to reproduce any of the materials or design instruments of this site, nor to redistribute them without the written permission of 3DICE.COM.
The user is not allowed to sell, license, rent, modify, distribute, reproduce, copy, publicly display, transmit publicly perform, adapt, publish, edit or create derivatives from any materials and/or contents of this site without the written authorization of 3DICE.COM.
3DICE.COM grants the user a personal, non-transferable and non-exclusive right and license to use any necessary software in connection with its services on any single computer at any given time, provided the restrictions of said terms are fully respected."
This is not unreasonble clause, as 3Dice as well as other software providers usually have such a clause to protect their product. But an unscrupulous casino operator could use such a clause as denial of a legimate withdrawal.Therefore, it is not allowed for the user to copy and or to reproduce any of the materials or design instruments of this site, nor to redistribute them without the written permission of 3DICE.COM.
The user is not allowed to sell, license, rent, modify, distribute, reproduce, copy, publicly display, transmit publicly perform, adapt, publish, edit or create derivatives from any materials and/or contents of this site without the written authorization of 3DICE.COM.
3DICE.COM grants the user a personal, non-transferable and non-exclusive right and license to use any necessary software in connection with its services on any single computer at any given time, provided the restrictions of said terms are fully respected."
Researching this, I thought I would look at the rogued casino Joyland's Terms of service for comparison. Quotes from their Terms of Service will be in blue.
It appears to be competently written, and probably by a lawyer and quite possibly enforceable.
It is considerably lengthier than 3Dices, and much more legalese, but there is not much out of the ordinary as yet. But contrast their section on the same issue. It basically says the same stuff in more words, as far as I can tell.
[INDENT]"4. LICENCE TO USE SOFTWARE
We hereby grant you a personal, non-exclusive, non-transferable right to use the Software, solely for playing in the Online Casino, in accordance with the following provisions.
4.1 This license applies only to the Object Code of the Software (i.e., the compiled, assembled, or machine executable version of the Software) and does not grant you any rights whatsoever with respect to the source code of the Software.
4.2 This license does not apply to certain territories which are identified in the following paragraph, of which YOU SHOULD NOT BE A RESIDENT AND FROM WHICH YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO ACCESS OR USE THE ONLINE CASINO AND/OR THE WEBSITE AND/OR THE SOFTWARE, OR TO MAKE ANY DEPOSIT OR RECEIVE ANY WITHDRAWAL.
This list may be changed by us from time to time and IT IS YOUR DUTY TO CONSULT AND CHECK REGULARLY THIS END-USER AGREEMENT IN OUR WEBSITE REGARDING ANY CHANGES TO THIS LIST.
THE EXCLUDED TERRITORIES ARE AS FOLLOWS:
THE UNITED STATES AND ITS TERRITORIES, ISRAEL, ANTIGUA AND BARBUDA, NETHERLANDS ANTILLES, ESTONIA, CYPRUS, KAHNAWAKE, BULGARIA, HONG KONG, PHILIPPINES, AFGHANISTAN, CUBA, IRAN, IRAQ, LIBYA, SUDAN, SYRIA AND TURKEY.
4.3 You are not permitted to and will not permit or assist others to:
4.3.1 install or load the Software onto a server or other network device or take other steps to make the Software available to any other person via any form of "bulletin board", online service or remote dial-in, application service provider services, internet services provider services, timesharing arrangements, outsourcing services or bureau services;
4.3.2 sub-license, assign, rent, lease, loan, transfer or copy the Software or your licence to use the Software, or make or distribute copies of the Software;
4.3.3 translate, reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble, adapt, modify, create derivative works based on, or otherwise modify the Software;
4.3.4 copy or translate any user documentation provided 'online' or in electronic format;
4.3.5 enter, access or attempt to enter or access or otherwise bypass the applicable security system or interfere in any way (including but not limited to robots and similar devices) with the Online Casino or the Website, or attempt to make any changes to the Software and/or any features or components thereof.
4.4 You do not own the Software. The Software is owned and is the exclusive property of the licensor, a third party software provider company (the "Software Provider"). The Software and accompanying documentation which have been licensed to us are proprietary products of the Software Provider and protected throughout the world by copyright law and other intellectual property law. Your use of the Software does not give you ownership of any intellectual property rights in the Software or any other rights in or with respect to the Software, except for the right to use the Software as expressly provided in this Agreement. This Agreement applies only to the grant of a license to use the Software.
4.5 Any trade marks, service marks and/or trade names used by us on the Website from time to time (the "Trade Marks") are the trade marks, service marks and/or trade names of ours or our affiliates or licensors, and we and/or such entities, as applicable, reserve all rights to the Trade Marks. In addition, other content on the Website, including, but not limited to, the Software, images, pictures, graphics, photographs, animations, videos, music, audio and text (the "Site Content") belongs to us or our affiliates or licensors and is protected by copyright and/or other intellectual property rights. You hereby acknowledge that by accessing and using the Online Casino and the Website you obtain no rights in or to the Trade Marks or the Site Content and must not use them without our prior written consent.
4.6 THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT ANY WARRANTIES, CONDITIONS, UNDERTAKINGS OR REPRESENTATIONS, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, STATUTORY OR OTHERWISE. WE AND THE SOFTWARE PROVIDER, AND ALL OF OUR AND THEIR AFFILIATES AND RELATED PARTIES, HEREBY EXCLUDE ALL IMPLIED TERMS, CONDITIONS AND WARRANTIES (INCLUDING ANY WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY, SATISFACTORY QUALITY AND FITNESS FOR ANY PARTICULAR PURPOSE), AND DO NOT WARRANT THAT THE SOFTWARE WILL MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS.
4.7 NEITHER WE NOR THE SOFTWARE PROVIDER, NOR ANY OF OUR OR THEIR AFFILIATES AND RELATED PARTIES, WARRANT OR GUARANTEE (1) THAT THE SOFTWARE WILL BE NON-INFRINGING, (2) THAT THE OPERATION OF THE SOFTWARE WILL BE ERROR FREE OR UNINTERRUPTED, (3) THAT ANY DEFECTS IN THE SOFTWARE WILL BE CORRECTED, (4) THAT THE SOFTWARE OR THE SERVERS ARE FREE OF VIRUSES AND BUGS, OR (5) THE PRIVACY, SECURITY, AUTHENTICITY AND NON-CORRUPTION OF ANY INFORMATION TRANSMITTED THROUGH, OR STORED IN ANY SYSTEM CONNECTED TO, THE INTERNET.
4.8 NEITHER WE NOR THE SOFTWARE PROVIDER, OR ANY OF OUR OR THEIR AFFILIATES AND RELATED PARTIES, WILL BE LIABLE TO YOU OR TO ANY THIRD PARTY FOR ANY COSTS, EXPENSES, LOSSES OR CLAIMS ARISING OR RESULTING FROM COMMUNICATIONS OR SYSTEM ERRORS OCCURING IN CONNECTION WITH THE SETTELMENT OF ACCOUNTS OR OTHER FEATURES OR COMPONENTS OF THE SOFTWARE. IN THE EVENT OF SUCH ERRORS, WE WILL FURTHER HAVE THE RIGHT, BUT NOT THE OBLIGATION, TO REMOVE ANY RELEVANT GAMES FROM THE SOFTWARE AND THE WEBSITE AND TAKE ANY OTHER ACTION TO CORRECT SUCH ERRORS.
4.9 The Software may include confidential information which is secret and valuable to the Software Provider and/or to us. You are not entitled to use or disclose that confidential information other than strictly in accordance with the terms of this Agreement."[/INDENT]
Says pretty much the same thing, and is non at all unusual. Most licensing agreements for software, not just casino software have the same sort of clause.
Let's keep reading legalese at Joyland.
Okay, now they will only allow you to withdraw a maximum of $9,000 per month, but they tell you pretty clearly, and Casino Rewards where I play has a cap of $4000 weekly, and other casinos have caps too.
Standard stuff until:
9.3 In the event of any dispute regarding a Stake or Winnings, our decision will be final and binding.
WHOA!! That is not standard contract stuff. An "unlawful clause" will not usually be upheld by Cdn courts, but I am not familiar with other countries laws.Contrast that with 3Dice's:
"14.Choice of Law and Forum.
These Terms are governed by the laws of the Dutch Antilles, excluding its conflicts of law rules.
The user explicitly agrees that the exclusive jurisdiction for any claim or action arising out of or relating to these Terms, is with the Courts of Curaao. The user further agrees and submits to the exercise of personal jurisdiction of such Courts for the purpose of litigating any such claim or action.
The user waives any right to a trial by jury in any such action or suit."
Or my prepaid credit card:These Terms are governed by the laws of the Dutch Antilles, excluding its conflicts of law rules.
The user explicitly agrees that the exclusive jurisdiction for any claim or action arising out of or relating to these Terms, is with the Courts of Curaao. The user further agrees and submits to the exercise of personal jurisdiction of such Courts for the purpose of litigating any such claim or action.
The user waives any right to a trial by jury in any such action or suit."
"GOVERNING LAWS
This Agreement will be governed by the laws of the province where You first obtain the Card. The parties submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of the courts of that province in relation to any dispute arising out of this Agreement."
This Agreement will be governed by the laws of the province where You first obtain the Card. The parties submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of the courts of that province in relation to any dispute arising out of this Agreement."
As a legal secretary I NEVER prepared any contracts that did not indicate the jurisdiction, nor to the best of my knowlege agreed to one. If a contract lacks a clause indicating jurisdiction, to the best of my knowledge, it is usually held to be the jurisdiction in which the contract was signed.
Oh, yes Joyland does have such a clause. I've read on further. Bolding mine
"13. GOVERNING LAW
13.1 The construction, validity and performance of this Agreement will be governed by English law. The competent court in London will have exclusive jurisdiction in any matter arising from or related to this Agreement. However, this shall not prevent us from bringing any action in the court of any other jurisdiction for injunctive or similar relief. The English language version of this Agreement will prevail over any other language version issued by us.
13.2 The illegality, invalidity or enforceability of any provision of this Agreement will not affect the legality, validity or enforceability of the remaining provisions of this Agreement.
13.1 The construction, validity and performance of this Agreement will be governed by English law. The competent court in London will have exclusive jurisdiction in any matter arising from or related to this Agreement. However, this shall not prevent us from bringing any action in the court of any other jurisdiction for injunctive or similar relief. The English language version of this Agreement will prevail over any other language version issued by us.
13.2 The illegality, invalidity or enforceability of any provision of this Agreement will not affect the legality, validity or enforceability of the remaining provisions of this Agreement.
Now what does that mean? That no matter if the court in London orders them to pay a player winnings, they can just sue you for that amount in another country? Maybe one that will support clause 9.3? Certainly not an expert in international law, so if anyone is, please chime in.
The remainder of the agreement is again pretty standard stuff as far as I can tell.
I am certainly not implying that contracts that are long or boring are invalid or all fraudulent. But I am saying read every bloody word of any contract. I actually had expected to find nothing out of the ordinary at Joyland. And agreements that are not "legal" sounding enough actually worry me a bit.
And just because an agreement does not include anything as outrageous as Joyland's, doesn't been that a company will honour their contract with you.
And if you are ever told "we've never enforced such a clause" in regards to a contract, have them delete the clause from the contract. This actually happened to me when I was purchasing a new furnance, and the salesman called the office, and the clause was deleted and initialled by both parties.
I am sorry this post is so long, but I couldn't find a shorter way to present this, and hope you find it of value.
And both 3Dice and Joyland's terms of service state that they can change their terms of service at any time without notice. My prepaid credit card informs me that Fee Changes will be posted on their website ten days in advance of such changes. Just the fees, not the whole agreement.
Again, I am not a lawyer, so do not ask me for any legal advice. Hire a lawyer. In my experience, its often money well spent. And especially if large sums are involved. Most lawyers will not charge much to review a contract.
Hope you have found this of value.
