Corona virus - Covid 19 discussion

[vorcirion]

I want to live in a free society not under communism, even if the black death were ravaging society thank you very much.

So you want to be an anarchist or what? Buy an island. Go live there by yourself if you don't like to be part of society.

 

[Playford7]

Thankfully our citizens are more sensible. They actually care about their countrymen and follow the rules. That's why we don't need lockdowns while you do. I think you should get chinese kind of lockdowns since you don't seem to learn otherwise.

See it’s attacks like this borgie won’t bat one of her pretty eyelids about as it’s what she believes...

@vorc, just as we disagree doesn’t make us the devil... this forum we used to all be able to agree or not, sadly not so much now.

as many long standing absent members hold testimony to.

hope your Xmas was awesome btw, all the best for new year.

 

[vorcirion]

See it’s attacks like this borgie won’t bat one of her pretty eyelids about as it’s what she believes...

@vorc, just as we disagree doesn’t make us the devil... this forum we used to all be able to agree or not, sadly not so much now.

as many long standing absent members hold testimony to.

hope your Xmas was awesome btw, all the best for new year.

You don't like helping your own countrymen? Do you really care only about yourself?

 

[mina1929]

It has been a very long year and my heart goes out to all the different countries affected by this virus. I really thought it would be all over within a year

Also I feel for people that have lost loved ones, have depression, anxiety and lost hope.

Love and care to all and I hope we can kill this Virus and have a happier 2021

 

[sufferinsilence]

See it’s attacks like this borgie won’t bat one of her pretty eyelids about as it’s what she believes...

@vorc, just as we disagree doesn’t make us the devil... this forum we used to all be able to agree or not, sadly not so much now.

as many long standing absent members hold testimony to.

hope your Xmas was awesome btw, all the best for new year.

How is that an attack tho? It's just an observation... not only made by Vorcirion. And sadly that doesn't only seem the case in the UK but everywhere, as long as there's alot of people who think this is just a joke or something that's just made up to sell vaccines we'll keep on struggling in the entire world.

 

[Playford7]

You haven't gave a solution. You have just said open everything, well yes, I get that is what some people want, but the fact is, if that happens hospitals will be over capacity within weeks, so how would you combat that? Normal ops will get cancelled, routine appointments will get cancelled, people will die because they can't get treatment. Thats happening now according to some, but the fact is, it would be worse if we had never put any restrictions in place.

In the stuff I've read today I've not seen anything saying 90k of nurses are off because they tested positive, all the reports are saying it's because of the massive increase of patients due to C19 and therefore no beds left. Can you link to where you have seen that so many nurses are off? The most recent I can find is this saying 30k NHS staff

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which isn't just nurses, its across all NHS staff. Granted it's probably increased by now.

Massive increase?

That huge they shut the nightingales and not one single trust hospital is under measures?..

really?

the stress is due to the testing and isolating of NHS staff, been told this personally...

so no article or MSM nonsensical written twaddle will sway me otherwise, the testing is flawed before we even start mate... it’s a farce.

And asking me about the solution solving this is like asking a affiliate to solve the mass gambling issues the U.K. face...

all I can do and will is give my personal experience and thoughts col, it’s a waste of time us going back and forth with a million articles, MSM pieces etc.. as I could throw a million back and nobody gets anywhere.

it would become like NK, we all know how nasty that got, and personally I’ve more time for you as a person than to belittle what I think of you for a tit to tat about politics, as sadly that’s all what corona has became about now mate.

 

[Playford7]

You don't like helping your own countrymen? Do you really care only about yourself?

Again I rest my case with attacks just like this from certain people on this forum...

It started round about the NK thread and sadly has filtered to this thread...

 

[colinsunderland]

Massive increase?

That huge they shut the nightingales and not one single trust hospital is under measures?..

really?

the stress is due to the testing and isolating of NHS staff, been told this personally...

so no article or MSM nonsensical written twaddle will sway me otherwise, the testing is flawed before we even start mate... it’s a farce.

And asking me about the solution solving this is like asking a affiliate to solve the mass gambling issues the U.K. face...

all I can do and will is give my personal experience and thoughts col, it’s a waste of time us going back and forth with a million articles, MSM pieces etc.. as I could throw a million back and nobody gets anywhere.

it would become like NK, we all know how nasty that got, and personally I’ve more time for you as a person than to belittle what I think of you for a tit to tat about politics, as sadly that’s all what corona has became about now mate.

What measures would any hospital trust be under? I thought special measures was when they weren't being administered correctly or they have a failing in the quality of care? I can't see any being placed under special measures because they have an increase in admissions higher than they can cope with.
How is the testing flawed? It's well within the guidelines for failure for any medical test like this isn't it?

I'm not wanting to argue, I was asking for sensible alternatives to lockdowns and restrictions, mainly to see if there were alternatives I hadn't thought of, as I don't see any. There have been 70000 people died of this in 9 months, the country can't just carry on as normal as that figure will be exponentially higher, from both C19 and the lack of care that would be provided to other diseases, both because of lack of staff and lack of bed spaces.

The fact is, 3 times the NHS have struggled to cope with the increases in admissions due to C19. Twice we have gone into lockdown and the pressure has been released and they were able to cope. Therefore the lockdowns worked perfectly. The sole aim of them was to ensure the NHS could cope, and they worked. We are hitting the third time now and there is no lockdown in place, all I was asking is, if we don't lockdown, then what should we do instead. It seems no one knows, so by process of elimination, it looks like lockdown is the only option.

 

[Pixie]

 

[sufferinsilence]

Belgium has an excess mortality of 17.515 (and counting) for 2020. Our official count of people passed away due to Covid is around 19.000.

Granted, the big peak was during the 1st wave and now they're able to save many more lives because of understanding the complications of the disease a little better.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Just a quick point about ICUs 'not being full', - i.e. this thing where people say 'Well they're 95% full every year and they're only 95% full now' - hospitals work to make 'new' ICU beds when they get close to capacity, they do this by redirecting other resources in the hospital to focus on ICU capacity, because ICU is, by definition, where people are most at risk of death.

i.e. 95% this year is 95% of a larger number than 95% last year, and that means hospitals are diverting more resources to making those new ICU beds.

The more Covid there is, the more people get ill, and that means more people getting seriously ill, and that means, ultimately, more people needing an ICU bed, and that's where too much Covid basically leads to lots of routine non-serious/life-threatening care being neglected, and is where the argument about 'getting on as normal' completely drops on its arse, because there is no capacity in the system to provide it.

As noted above, lockdowns have achieved their goal in keeping the NHS from becoming overwhelmed, but without a new lockdown and given the current surge of the new variant, that is now a very real risk.

 

[Playford7]

Just a quick point about ICUs 'not being full', - i.e. this thing where people say 'Well they're 95% full every year and they're only 95% full now' - hospitals work to make 'new' ICU beds when they get close to capacity, they do this by redirecting other resources in the hospital to focus on ICU capacity, because ICU is, by definition, where people are most at risk of death.

i.e. 95% this year is 95% of a larger number than 95% last year, and that means hospitals are diverting more resources to making those new ICU beds.

The more Covid there is, the more people get ill, and that means more people getting seriously ill, and that means, ultimately, more people needing an ICU bed, and that's where too much Covid basically leads to lots of routine non-serious/life-threatening care being neglected, and is where the argument about 'getting on as normal' completely drops on its arse, because there is no capacity in the system to provide it.

As noted above, lockdowns have achieved their goal in keeping the NHS from becoming overwhelmed, but without a new lockdown and given the current surge of the new variant, that is now a very real risk.

View attachment 148105
View attachment 148106

Hold the press guys! The dude from his island with little to no corona, doesn’t affect him one bit and is out of the EU is posting a link!! A MSM link!..

good heavens we must all be very bad boys and girls and run for our masks and never work again until tier 454 is over...

 

[Playford7]

How is that an attack tho? It's just an observation... not only made by Vorcirion. And sadly that doesn't only seem the case in the UK but everywhere, as long as there's alot of people who think this is just a joke or something that's just made up to sell vaccines we'll keep on struggling in the entire world.

This wasn’t involving you, nor would it as you don’t actually live in a real country mate (joking, that’s Nigel farage whom thinks that, not me..)

hope your Xmas had many a jingle and loads of chocolate mate.

ben

 

[sufferinsilence]

This wasn’t involving you, nor would it as you don’t actually live in a real country mate (joking, that’s Nigel farage whom thinks that, not me..)

hope your Xmas had many a jingle and loads of chocolate mate.

ben

As this is a public forum everyone can voice their opinion, even you

Christmas was as usual, I don't celebrate it really. Chocolate year round for me!

 

[Playford7]

What measures would any hospital trust be under? I thought special measures was when they weren't being administered correctly or they have a failing in the quality of care? I can't see any being placed under special measures because they have an increase in admissions higher than they can cope with.
How is the testing flawed? It's well within the guidelines for failure for any medical test like this isn't it?

I'm not wanting to argue, I was asking for sensible alternatives to lockdowns and restrictions, mainly to see if there were alternatives I hadn't thought of, as I don't see any. There have been 70000 people died of this in 9 months, the country can't just carry on as normal as that figure will be exponentially higher, from both C19 and the lack of care that would be provided to other diseases, both because of lack of staff and lack of bed spaces.

The fact is, 3 times the NHS have struggled to cope with the increases in admissions due to C19. Twice we have gone into lockdown and the pressure has been released and they were able to cope. Therefore the lockdowns worked perfectly. The sole aim of them was to ensure the NHS could cope, and they worked. We are hitting the third time now and there is no lockdown in place, all I was asking is, if we don't lockdown, then what should we do instead. It seems no one knows, so by process of elimination, it looks like lockdown is the only option.

I’ll get back to you shortly mate.

just had to walk sox and avoid the corpses, the lines of folks bringing out the dead..

most unpleasant of experiences.

 

[Playford7]

I’ll get back to you shortly mate.

just had to walk sox and avoid the corpses, the lines of folks bringing out the dead..

most unpleasant of experiences. View attachment 148107

Administered properly? The NHS? Isn’t such a utterance that can be compared I’m afraid mate, the NHS isn’t fit for service nor was way way before China unleashed this most upsetting of viruses.

infact back in 2014 when Isabelle was born I paid private for her mother to have her in comfort away from the hoards, was a beautiful choice.

own room, own midwife and nurses, hospitality staff on standby..

no drunks nor free loaders to be seen as was a private hospital, personally I think that’s the way the NHS should be going.

special measures are when one trust is under pressure from a myriad of reasons mate, the paper work would tie this up before we got to the reasons.

but overwhelmed, or threat of a hospital over run would put said place in measures, this isn’t a choice, it’s a hierarchy that’s dictated to via the mangers etc and passed down, so NO in answer to your questions no hospitals at current are in any measures officially nor are they anywhere near breaking point.

the tiers are just laughable mate, as I can’t in theory go visit a mate for a scotch, but my 6 year old can attend school for weeks upon weeks mixing with other kids, teachers and families?... and there isn’t a risk of spreading the Chinese virus there?..

Then why?..

And if lockdowns work so perfectly col why don’t they?...

we had them and they where a farce, we didn’t and it was a joke... but now they want more?.... oh come on..

As said adhered genuinely to this, for a good 9 weeks at the start to ‘flatten the curve’

then the nonsense started... now it’s not about some killer virus mate, it’s a lot more and I’ve seen to many mates die, families lost there lives and business lost to just sit back and take this utter BS.

Also many the loudest on here with regards to me and how I don’t care are the most silent about other issues....

how about me volunteering for the NHS? Me doing that when I lost my job for months to help others, me shopping for the older folks and using my own cash when I was short?..

or how about after I stopped doing this for the NHS how many older men and women called me for ‘just someone to talk to’ this went on ages and was advised to stop, you think I did?..

so the likes of @Borgie, @vorcirion and others, before you call me out.... what actually have you done during this pandemic to help?...

all I’ve said is provable btw should any member wish to search this site.

so just before the usual spout off bullshit about others, take a closer look to home before you do.

best regards.

ben

also corona cooking later and some cheese and biscuits..,

ben the killer....

 

[colinsunderland]

Right but no one was arguing about if the NHS as a whole is ran properly or not, It's been massively under funded for 30 years, even more so in the past 10, it's never going to be as good as going private for that reason alone.

No hospital will be put into special measures because they couldn't cope in the middle of a pandemic, I will guarantee that.

Some hospitals are close to breaking point, otherwise they wouldn't be refusing patients and asking to transfer existing ones 100's of miles away.

You still aren't saying what should be done instead of lockdown. I'm not denying that there are downsides to them, not at all, I agree with you, and don't agree with some measures the government have done, but it doesn't change the fact that they work in what they are meant to do.

I haven't said anything regards you so not sure what that was about but I certainly haven't said anything against you personally, nor would I. It's a discussion about our opinions, it shouldn't get personal at all.

 

[Borgie]

Administered properly? The NHS? Isn’t such a utterance that can be compared I’m afraid mate, the NHS isn’t fit for service nor was way way before China unleashed this most upsetting of viruses.

infact back in 2014 when Isabelle was born I paid private for her mother to have her in comfort away from the hoards, was a beautiful choice.

own room, own midwife and nurses, hospitality staff on standby..

no drunks nor free loaders to be seen as was a private hospital, personally I think that’s the way the NHS should be going.

special measures are when one trust is under pressure from a myriad of reasons mate, the paper work would tie this up before we got to the reasons.

but overwhelmed, or threat of a hospital over run would put said place in measures, this isn’t a choice, it’s a hierarchy that’s dictated to via the mangers etc and passed down, so NO in answer to your questions no hospitals at current are in any measures officially nor are they anywhere near breaking point.

the tiers are just laughable mate, as I can’t in theory go visit a mate for a scotch, but my 6 year old can attend school for weeks upon weeks mixing with other kids, teachers and families?... and there isn’t a risk of spreading the Chinese virus there?..

Then why?..

And if lockdowns work so perfectly col why don’t they?...

we had them and they where a farce, we didn’t and it was a joke... but now they want more?.... oh come on..

As said adhered genuinely to this, for a good 9 weeks at the start to ‘flatten the curve’

then the nonsense started... now it’s not about some killer virus mate, it’s a lot more and I’ve seen to many mates die, families lost there lives and business lost to just sit back and take this utter BS.

Also many the loudest on here with regards to me and how I don’t care are the most silent about other issues....

how about me volunteering for the NHS? Me doing that when I lost my job for months to help others, me shopping for the older folks and using my own cash when I was short?..

or how about after I stopped doing this for the NHS how many older men and women called me for ‘just someone to talk to’ this went on ages and was advised to stop, you think I did?..

so the likes of @Borgie, @vorcirion and others, before you call me out.... what actually have you done during this pandemic to help?...

all I’ve said is provable btw should any member wish to search this site.

so just before the usual spout off bullshit about others, take a closer look to home before you do.

best regards.

ben

also corona cooking later and some cheese and biscuits..,

ben the killer....

I do as i am asked. I stay at home. I respect others . I wear a mask if i have to go out. I am nearly 60 with very bad health and am disabled so shield as much as i can. I do not want to be part of the problem nor would i want to infect anyone.

 

[Playford7]

Right but no one was arguing about if the NHS as a whole is ran properly or not, It's been massively under funded for 30 years, even more so in the past 10, it's never going to be as good as going private for that reason alone.

No hospital will be put into special measures because they couldn't cope in the middle of a pandemic, I will guarantee that.

Some hospitals are close to breaking point, otherwise they wouldn't be refusing patients and asking to transfer existing ones 100's of miles away.

You still aren't saying what should be done instead of lockdown. I'm not denying that there are downsides to them, not at all, I agree with you, and don't agree with some measures the government have done, but it doesn't change the fact that they work in what they are meant to do.

I haven't said anything regards you so not sure what that was about but I certainly haven't said anything against you personally, nor would I. It's a discussion about our opinions, it shouldn't get personal at all.

That’s why I didn’t nor mentioned you personally col, I’d like to think no matter what we disagree with it ends on the page mate.

also some col where indeed put into special measures with regards to this pandemic, so to assume otherwise is incorrect.

i can and will provide you with said hospitals and trusts mate if you want this, but it will be a barrage of stats spreadsheets, but as a friend I promise I’m not lying about this.

Col, who the hell am I to argue or not what should be done regarding this, I’m a ex scaffolder mate, I can’t provide you a answer nor some silver bullet where you can use and go ‘ha got him’

this was never about wrong or right, left or right or like or hate with me col, I based all I know on mates in the field (NHS) not just nurses but doctors, and over months of past living and experience i base that on what I speak with you.

would you me prefer to send some silly link I’ve not looked at or some research i couldn’t possibly provide a back up for mate?..

There is just no way I can answer what you ask in regards to being done col, I can all day give my opinions, and if they are based on anything by all means I will.

but guessing blindly and sending the odd MSM link I’ll not be doing Colin as would be a disrespect to the both of us.

hope that’s came across as intended mate, no malice no arrogance etc, as we get on I’d like to think and some virus should not upset a friendship.

Ben

 

[Playford7]

I do as i am asked. I stay at home. I respect others . I wear a mask if i have to go out. I am nearly 60 with very bad health and am disabled so shield as much as i can. I do not want to be part of the problem nor would i want to infect anyone.

So you would be exactly the kind of person I’ve discussed protecting,

also one In my own time I chose to make sure was safe and well in my local area...getting tested (myself) and making sure was ok, off my own back... no pay

yet you call me what you do...

Who’s really the bad guy here borgie?

 

[colinsunderland]

From the Mail so take with a pinch of salt.

This is hospital data from the internal critical care NHS database

There are 3 areas who are over 100% capacity, yet the hospitals are all empty?

 

[Playford7]

I’ll be pulling away from corona for now guys, as it’s that savage and vicious I’ll have to keep a distance...

So a apple sausage and mash, onion gravy, horseradish mash and some garlic and bacon sprouts...

Oh and extra mustard, yes looks a tad ‘rustic’ that’s because after I’ve eaten this I’m on the cheese, biscuits and chutneys...

all this worry of viruses has certainly got me all of a tither!.,

back shortly folks with me cheese and posh chutneys.

keep safe, wash hands and move 17 miles away from my nearest and dearest..

 

[Playford7]

Was so worried about @ChopleyIOM and his brexit being on his island, not to worry corona...

sadly rushed this...

2 chutneys, 3 cheese, many a biscuit..
And a few crisps and a garlic and herb dip..

if I don’t make it till the morning guys... well, well... I love you all.

ben and sox

 

[Borgie]

Major incident declared in Essex as number of Covid patients rise

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Sent via @updayUK

 

[colinsunderland]

This isn't from the guy who I usually get info from (he's off work this week) so can't be 100% on it's accuracy, but regarding the North East, Hartlepool will be Tier 4, it's 50/50 if the rest go into it, our figures suggest we should stay as Tier 3, but the numpty council leaders are calling for Tier 4, so it's a bit of an argument about it at the moment.
Media seem to be reporting the West Midlands will be T4 too, which tends to indicate the typical government leaks.

 

[colinsunderland]

The Oxford vaccine has been approved too, which is great news. Quicker we get people vaccinated, quicker things can start going back to normal.

 

[Slottery]

Belgium has an excess mortality of 17.515 (and counting) for 2020. Our official count of people passed away due to Covid is around 19.000.

Granted, the big peak was during the 1st wave and now they're able to save many more lives because of understanding the complications of the disease a little better.

Any idea why Belgium is counting death numbers differently than other countries? It can be a better way to give more real numbers but it's just bit headache for any comparisons for those who like to do them and follow stats when one is counted differently.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The Oxford vaccine has been approved too, which is great news. Quicker we get people vaccinated, quicker things can start going back to normal.

Going forward we do at least now have two vaccines, which have the ability to end the worst of it given time, and if enough people get bloody well vaccinated of course.

Too late for this wave though, the Christmas numbers aren't even factored in yet as those infections won't have shown up in results/illness/hospitalisation, it's going to be a truly horrendous January.

Many hospitals at breaking point already, staff are exhausted and demoralised, ICUs now pulling in non-ICU staff to keep going, mental strain now a real problem.

Honestly folks, those of you are refusing to wear a mask or obey the tiering rules (as flawed as they may be) or do whatever small things are being asked of you - have a think about it.

 

[Borgie]

From a doctor who is a friend of an ex colleague of mine

 

[slotmaster]

I do as i am asked. I stay at home. I respect others . I wear a mask if i have to go out. I am nearly 60 with very bad health and am disabled so shield as much as i can. I do not want to be part of the problem nor would i want to infect anyone.

Dam! I thought you were like 30!O_o

 

[colinsunderland]

From a doctor who is a friend of an ex colleague of mine

This is what I don't understand when people say the hospitals aren't full, they aren't busy, they can cope. There are literally 100's of posts like this from the past couple of days from Doctors and Nurses. I understand having a mistrust of the media, but these are frontline NHS workers.

This is why I asked yesterday about what to do instead, I can genuinely only see a lockdown solving the problem, so wanted to see what other solutions people were thinking of, but got nothing. It's the same on other forums.

We can't just say 'fuck it, lets go back to normal' as the NHS will literally collapse. There are restrictions in place, and were when these recent cases caught it (probably around 3 weeks ago for the ones getting taken to hospital). In certain parts of the country the NHS can't cope. Thats a fact. It isn't just one small hospital, it is loads of them. So if all restrictions were lifted the hospital admissions would be worse. Therefore you can pretty much guarantee all operations and appointments will be cancelled, the ones which are ongoing now. The ones saying lockdowns cause more deaths cite this as a reason, that people don't get the full care they need if the countries locked down, but never say how they would manage to do it if the hospitals are overflowing with Covid patients.

I think the should be a full lockdown like the first one, however, some changes.
Anyone who can work at home, should work at home. If the employer managed it during the first one, then they can now. If they don't, they should be fined and excluded from any financial packages offered now and in the future, from the Government.
Workers who can't work at home, for example, people in the building game and suchlike, should continue to work as normal.
Education should be closed, apart from possibly Primary. Especially Uni. All Uni learning is currently online, so there is no need for students to travel back to Halls etc. In fact it should be treat as a gap year and just start again in September, as not being able to access lectures, labs, workshops etc is a massive hindrance. If the Government can pay billions out for non existent PPE, a failed track n trace etc, then they can support the uni's.
All non essential shops closed, and by essential, I don't mean Home Bargains, B&M should be allowed to open. Especially not places like The Range who got round the rules by having half a shelf of paracetamol on display.
If you go into an essential shop then you have to wear a mask or visor, or you don't get in. Like Costco have done.
Businesses should be paid an amount that they need to survive, profit from the same period 12 months ago maybe, plus other costs like rent/rates.
Hospitals should restart routine stuff as soon as the numbers drop, but on the condition everyone has to have a test 24 hours before going in and being able to show a negative result, wear masks and gloves going in the hospital, and that applies to staff too.
There should be a substantial sum given to mental health services countrywide, both NHS and non NHS.
Employees should be furloughed when they can't work, but the Government should pay 100% of wages.

Yes it's harsh, but it would bring things under control until the vaccine has been rolled out.

 

[snorky510238]

I can see both sides of the debate here, to a point. What I would say, to those with the view of just ignore it, is would you still feel the same, if, god forbid, you lost a loved one because of it?

The way I see it, is that the opportunity was there at the very beginning to eradicate the virus but we (through our leaders) chose to ignore it. We then saw cases increasing and the country (UK) was placed in lockdown.

I am not going to trawl back through to get exact dates and figures because it’s only the principles that are important. Around the end of March we went into lockdown with around 3,000 cases per day IIRC and by the end of July the cases were down to less than 1,000 per day.

On the face of it, you could argue it served it’s purpose but just reducing the cases by approximately 2,500 over that period of time could also be seen as fairly inefficient. I understand, it was to prevent the NHS from being overwhelmed but in the long term it hasn’t made any difference because that is where we are now.

Personally, and I stated this months ago, I think we should have looked closer at other major factors that were and still are imo influencing the control of the virus.

The main one being international travel. Without going into the complexity of it all, the basics are that people were and still are entering and leaving the country on a daily basis by the thousands. We are told that all these people were and are tested but really it’s impossible to control and police effectively.

I know of people that went on holiday abroad this summer, who did not isolate when they returned. To be honest most people wouldn’t be able to afford to do that as most people haven’t the holiday allowance to accommodate it and Companies could have made things very awkward for them.

You also have the illegal immigrants to consider and it’s a certain fact they will not have been tested. Thousands of them pouring in over that period. Perhaps a controversial statement but one that has to be considered as a factor.

The bottom line here is that it doesn’t matter how hard you try, if there are loopholes in your defence that are easily exploited then the restrictions are only going to be partially effective. What is obvious, is that what we are doing right now is not working.

 

[Borgie]

This is what I don't understand when people say the hospitals aren't full, they aren't busy, they can cope. There are literally 100's of posts like this from the past couple of days from Doctors and Nurses. I understand having a mistrust of the media, but these are frontline NHS workers.

This is why I asked yesterday about what to do instead, I can genuinely only see a lockdown solving the problem, so wanted to see what other solutions people were thinking of, but got nothing. It's the same on other forums.

We can't just say 'fuck it, lets go back to normal' as the NHS will literally collapse. There are restrictions in place, and were when these recent cases caught it (probably around 3 weeks ago for the ones getting taken to hospital). In certain parts of the country the NHS can't cope. Thats a fact. It isn't just one small hospital, it is loads of them. So if all restrictions were lifted the hospital admissions would be worse. Therefore you can pretty much guarantee all operations and appointments will be cancelled, the ones which are ongoing now. The ones saying lockdowns cause more deaths cite this as a reason, that people don't get the full care they need if the countries locked down, but never say how they would manage to do it if the hospitals are overflowing with Covid patients.

I think the should be a full lockdown like the first one, however, some changes.
Anyone who can work at home, should work at home. If the employer managed it during the first one, then they can now. If they don't, they should be fined and excluded from any financial packages offered now and in the future, from the Government.
Workers who can't work at home, for example, people in the building game and suchlike, should continue to work as normal.
Education should be closed, apart from possibly Primary. Especially Uni. All Uni learning is currently online, so there is no need for students to travel back to Halls etc. In fact it should be treat as a gap year and just start again in September, as not being able to access lectures, labs, workshops etc is a massive hindrance. If the Government can pay billions out for non existent PPE, a failed track n trace etc, then they can support the uni's.
All non essential shops closed, and by essential, I don't mean Home Bargains, B&M should be allowed to open. Especially not places like The Range who got round the rules by having half a shelf of paracetamol on display.
If you go into an essential shop then you have to wear a mask or visor, or you don't get in. Like Costco have done.
Businesses should be paid an amount that they need to survive, profit from the same period 12 months ago maybe, plus other costs like rent/rates.
Hospitals should restart routine stuff as soon as the numbers drop, but on the condition everyone has to have a test 24 hours before going in and being able to show a negative result, wear masks and gloves going in the hospital, and that applies to staff too.
There should be a substantial sum given to mental health services countrywide, both NHS and non NHS.
Employees should be furloughed when they can't work, but the Government should pay 100% of wages.

Yes it's harsh, but it would bring things under control until the vaccine has been rolled out.

As the full effect of all the people who met up at christmas will not be felt yet it would seem that when this happens adding to the chaos that some hospitals are about to completely go under.

Then people will die from many things , not just covid as any other illnesses and diseases and medical issues will not be able to be treated.

We all need to do what we can. Wear a mask ,wash our hands, social distance. stop whining about it. Care for one another the best we can. Each of us can only control ourselves.

 

[colinsunderland]

So the first leak ahead of the tv announcement tonight is that all schools in Tier 4 will stay closed for an extra 2 weeks. Thats useless. There are summative assessments in BTEC nationals first week back. How on earth would they ensure fairness? Sunderland students sitting next week whilst Essex students getting an extra couple, collusion?

Of course there are rumours pretty much the whole country will be in Tier 4 anyway

Areas being placed into Tier 4 include all of north-east England, Cumbria, Cheshire, Warrington, Greater Manchester, Lancashire, Blackpool and Blackburn with Darwen, most of West Midlands, all East Midlands except Rutland, large parts of South West.

That isn't confirmed, just what a few people are saying.

So we in the North East have low rates, rates have been falling for weeks, and if that 'leak' is true, we go to Tier 4. That makes sense, and they wonder why people ignore them.

EDIT: Obviously they didn't like the backlash, Primary schools open Monday, except small number of very high risk areas.

 

[colinsunderland]

281 cases in Sunderland. +202
2 deaths in Sunderland. +1
13 patients admitted to hospital in South Tyneside & Sunderland. -1
202 patients in hospital in South Tyneside & Sunderland. -10
8 patients on ventilation in South Tyneside & Sunderland. -4

1,957 cases in the NE. +1,016
42 deaths in the NE. +14
282 patients admitted to hospital in the NE & Yorks. +34
2,528 patients in hospital in the NE & Yorks. +32
156 patients on ventilation in the NE & Yorks. +2

50,023 cases in the UK. +10,786
981 deaths in the UK. +234
2,430 patients admitted to hospital in the UK. +426
23,771 patients in hospital in the UK. +2,854
1,847 patients on ventilation in the UK. +318

344,775 tests conducted.

Sunderland 7 day rolling average:
239 cases per 100,000 using backdated data. +83
282 cases per 100,000 using daily data. +100

424 cases per 100,000 for the UK using daily data. +70

Those figures are much worse than I expected, even accounting for some backdated data
I can understand why we are going into Tier 4 if that turns out to be the case.

 

[Slottery]

Also Spurs-Fulham postponed from tonight (Everton-Man City on Monday), now this starts to affect for people

 

[colinsunderland]

 

[Borgie]

I am in a covid hotspot area so no school for my grandson who is 7 for at least 2 more weeks

 

[ChopleyIOM]

If anyone thinks they know more about the ICU situation than the Intensive Care Society, please do go ahead and correct them.

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2)

(NOTE - Verified account.)

3)

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[pinnit2014]

I am in a covid hotspot area so no school for my grandson who is 7 for at least 2 more weeks

Happy 8th birthday to your grandson, in 2 weeks

 

[snorky510238]

What people don’t seem to get is that delaying something by a week or two will make absolutely no difference at all long term.

We went into full lockdown with 3,000 odd cases a day for 4 months, it made no difference long term. We now have 50,000 cases per day and we are pussyfooting around it.

3,000 cases = full lockdown
50,000 = um... well... urrr... stick a bit of sellotape there and glue that bit and well... it might work if we’re lucky.

Where is the lateral thinking and consistency behind that? The virus is exponential obviously, the more cases you have, the more your going to have in the future it’s that simple unless you stop the snowball from rolling.

 

[dionysus]

Full province-wide lockdown has gone into effect here.
Hope the dough-heads arent planning 'screw corona' New Year's parties.
Chatting to most friends they're just home-sticking and drinks in, chat on social media and whatnot.
Our numbers continue to climb so already suggestions out there we'll be looking at an extension after the 28 days.

 

[colinsunderland]

What people don’t seem to get is that delaying something by a week or two will make absolutely no difference at all long term.

We went into full lockdown with 3,000 odd cases a day for 4 months, it made no difference long term. We now have 50,000 cases per day and we are pussyfooting around it.

3,000 cases = full lockdown
50,000 = um... well... urrr... stick a bit of sellotape there and glue that bit and well... it might work if we’re lucky.

Where is the lateral thinking and consistency behind that? The virus is exponential obviously, the more cases you have, the more your going to have in the future it’s that simple unless you stop the snowball from rolling.

You can't compare cases as there was hardly any testing back in March, whereas now they are doing over half a million a day.
Hospital admissions are closer, but you have to remember back in March we were admitting a lot of people who we wouldn't today, I saw someone saying we are only taking in about 50% of the people who would have been admitted in March, so the 24000 in hospital today would equate to about 48000 if we were still admitting on the same criteria.

It made a difference short term, which is what it was meant to do. The only way a lockdown could work long term would be if it carried on long term, but then when the cases drop, people would just start ignoring it.

 

[snorky510238]

That’s where I think the tier system falls down. Yes cases fall in the higher numbered tiers but they increase in the lower numbered.

Human nature, tier 4, we need to do something.
Tier 1. Ah we’re okay, we can do as we please.

 

[sufferinsilence]

Any idea why Belgium is counting death numbers differently than other countries? It can be a better way to give more real numbers but it's just bit headache for any comparisons for those who like to do them and follow stats when one is counted differently.

No idea why. If I was a statistician I would compare through excess mortality numbers anyway because some countries are cheating on death numbers by only adding people who died and didn't have ANY underlying conditions. States like Florida had a huge "pneumonia epidemic" in spring and summer... if you catch my drift.

 

[colinsunderland]

No idea why. If I was a statistician I would compare through excess mortality numbers anyway because some countries are cheating on death numbers by only adding people who died and didn't have ANY underlying conditions. States like Florida had a huge "pneumonia epidemic" in spring and summer... if you catch my drift.

theres been roughly 60000 excess deaths in the UK between March and December 11th. Thats after a mild winter when you would expect the excess deaths to be lower than usual, which they were in Jan/Feb, and after the lockdown when you weren't getting as many RTA's etc.

 

[Playford7]

From a doctor who is a friend of an ex colleague of mine

With all due respect my daughter lives within a stones throw of the A and E at James cook in Middlesbrough.

the scenes posted above are common place, where before this nonsense, long before it.

you can view it from Marton road, Middlesbrough as you drive past either way, our hospital is like that 24/7, 365 days of the year.

 

[Slottery]

No idea why. If I was a statistician I would compare through excess mortality numbers anyway because some countries are cheating on death numbers by only adding people who died and didn't have ANY underlying conditions. States like Florida had a huge "pneumonia epidemic" in spring and summer... if you catch my drift.

Belgium is doing pretty much opposite and add to mortality numbers people who haven't been tested positive but been in touch with covid positives where they thought probably all were affected (in care homes especially where Belgium have loads of people compare to many other countries, think 3rd most in Europe).

Belgian officials say they are counting in a way that no other country in the world is currently doing: counting deaths in hospitals and care homes, but including deaths in care homes that are suspected, not confirmed, as Covid-19 cases.
According to Belgium's latest official figures, out of 7,703 deaths, 53% have been in care homes. (fyi, old numbers, old article but, just to point way of reporting)

This is just one quite unique way of reporting, which like i said is no more wrong or right but just making it not comparable to other countries who only report confirmed covid cases. Not sure how in every single country or state are reporting them but AFAIK, Belgium is only one who admit been reporting thousands of non confirmed covid mortalities. Only wondered about Belgiums unique approach in reporting these, just for common sense thinking could be more beneficial for Europe if all would "speak same language" (if some stats geeks can find anything useful from these numbers)

edit: About excess mortality, it's also not really accurate number everywhere, ie. in Finland where are very few covid deaths and cases, mortality is higher than previous years and will should be higher every coming years from now on for while due to populations age.

 

[Playford7]

This is what I don't understand when people say the hospitals aren't full, they aren't busy, they can cope. There are literally 100's of posts like this from the past couple of days from Doctors and Nurses. I understand having a mistrust of the media, but these are frontline NHS workers.

This is why I asked yesterday about what to do instead, I can genuinely only see a lockdown solving the problem, so wanted to see what other solutions people were thinking of, but got nothing. It's the same on other forums.

We can't just say 'fuck it, lets go back to normal' as the NHS will literally collapse. There are restrictions in place, and were when these recent cases caught it (probably around 3 weeks ago for the ones getting taken to hospital). In certain parts of the country the NHS can't cope. Thats a fact. It isn't just one small hospital, it is loads of them. So if all restrictions were lifted the hospital admissions would be worse. Therefore you can pretty much guarantee all operations and appointments will be cancelled, the ones which are ongoing now. The ones saying lockdowns cause more deaths cite this as a reason, that people don't get the full care they need if the countries locked down, but never say how they would manage to do it if the hospitals are overflowing with Covid patients.

I think the should be a full lockdown like the first one, however, some changes.
Anyone who can work at home, should work at home. If the employer managed it during the first one, then they can now. If they don't, they should be fined and excluded from any financial packages offered now and in the future, from the Government.
Workers who can't work at home, for example, people in the building game and suchlike, should continue to work as normal.
Education should be closed, apart from possibly Primary. Especially Uni. All Uni learning is currently online, so there is no need for students to travel back to Halls etc. In fact it should be treat as a gap year and just start again in September, as not being able to access lectures, labs, workshops etc is a massive hindrance. If the Government can pay billions out for non existent PPE, a failed track n trace etc, then they can support the uni's.
All non essential shops closed, and by essential, I don't mean Home Bargains, B&M should be allowed to open. Especially not places like The Range who got round the rules by having half a shelf of paracetamol on display.
If you go into an essential shop then you have to wear a mask or visor, or you don't get in. Like Costco have done.
Businesses should be paid an amount that they need to survive, profit from the same period 12 months ago maybe, plus other costs like rent/rates.
Hospitals should restart routine stuff as soon as the numbers drop, but on the condition everyone has to have a test 24 hours before going in and being able to show a negative result, wear masks and gloves going in the hospital, and that applies to staff too.
There should be a substantial sum given to mental health services countrywide, both NHS and non NHS.
Employees should be furloughed when they can't work, but the Government should pay 100% of wages.

Yes it's harsh, but it would bring things under control until the vaccine has been rolled out.

Because ours isn’t... I’ve mentioned a ICU doctor I know personally...

2 nurses, all work at ours.

it is not and never has been packed to the rafters, as said this is only my local, but it’s the biggest in Europe.

also my mate went to A and E the other evening, was dead.. yes I expect that when people have been shamed into attending, but totally empty was a bit of a stretch..

its his ex missus who’s the doctor at that hospital btw.

 

[Playford7]

I can see both sides of the debate here, to a point. What I would say, to those with the view of just ignore it, is would you still feel the same, if, god forbid, you lost a loved one because of it?

The way I see it, is that the opportunity was there at the very beginning to eradicate the virus but we (through our leaders) chose to ignore it. We then saw cases increasing and the country (UK) was placed in lockdown.

I am not going to trawl back through to get exact dates and figures because it’s only the principles that are important. Around the end of March we went into lockdown with around 3,000 cases per day IIRC and by the end of July the cases were down to less than 1,000 per day.

On the face of it, you could argue it served it’s purpose but just reducing the cases by approximately 2,500 over that period of time could also be seen as fairly inefficient. I understand, it was to prevent the NHS from being overwhelmed but in the long term it hasn’t made any difference because that is where we are now.

Personally, and I stated this months ago, I think we should have looked closer at other major factors that were and still are imo influencing the control of the virus.

The main one being international travel. Without going into the complexity of it all, the basics are that people were and still are entering and leaving the country on a daily basis by the thousands. We are told that all these people were and are tested but really it’s impossible to control and police effectively.

I know of people that went on holiday abroad this summer, who did not isolate when they returned. To be honest most people wouldn’t be able to afford to do that as most people haven’t the holiday allowance to accommodate it and Companies could have made things very awkward for them.

You also have the illegal immigrants to consider and it’s a certain fact they will not have been tested. Thousands of them pouring in over that period. Perhaps a controversial statement but one that has to be considered as a factor.

The bottom line here is that it doesn’t matter how hard you try, if there are loopholes in your defence that are easily exploited then the restrictions are only going to be partially effective. What is obvious, is that what we are doing right now is not working.

Super comment mate.
it’s getting a touch of the ‘NK’ thread here at times, nice to read a balanced and fair comment.

hope you had a good Xmas

Ben