Corona virus - Covid 19 discussion

[geordiecolin]

At some point they will have to stop lockdowns . No countries can afford to continually do this , and the poorer countries will have nobody left to get bailouts from ..

And if Scotland leaves the UK and joins the EU then Germany will have even less to give out .

What if the “vaccine” doesn’t do its job ?

There are going to be many different vaccines developed by companies in many countries. All with different formulas.
All with different success rates .

Maybe the virus will always be around and people will always be vulnerable to it.

Maybe governments will accept a certain number of deaths in proportion to the financial hit that they willl take .

And before anyone says that you can’t put a financial price on saving a life , yes you can .
Governments and health services do this all the time . There is a cost calculated with medication and hospital treatments .

How many families do you see that have had to fundraise for treatment for their dying children with leukaemia or cancer ? Or HIV / Aids ? It’s sad but it has always been the case.

If the cost of survival long term is above the cost allocated for treatment then it doesn’t get administered.

It sounds cold but I’m sure there are difficult conversations being had behind closed doors in many governments planning for if the vaccines don’t work.........

I have learnt first hand the government do not give a damn about the elderly and infirm. Sending an elderly patient back to a nursing home knowing they had covid and not informing the nursing home of it. From that 15 further residents and many staff contracting it before the home where able to take action. Those residents doctors stating over the phone (no paper trail) Nil by mouth, DNR and do not call an ambulance to take them to hospital.
Thankfully we have absolute Angels working in care homes who ignored those Doctors. Not just carers and nurses but cleaners and activity organisers. They fed those residents painstakingly - A symptom of acute covid is a swelling of the throat that makes it very difficult to swallow liquids or food- enabling the time for many residents to recover. And these elderly went through all of that without the comfort of having family visit them or the families having knowledge of those doctors diktats. A few died unaided,others via lethal injection effectively.
Of those 16 residents 6 died.
As an aside the virus is not so much respiratory as has been indicated,which is connected to the virus but is also a very common symptom of many people dying,but once it has taken a hold it attacks the most vulnerable part/s of the body that the individual has.
If you suffer from back pain anyway it multiplies that pain. If you have kidney problems then it targets that.

Spring time was quite warm in southern UK. I have absolutely no proof or read anything relating to it so I may well be wrong,but I fear for Southern England a little more than the North this coming winter because that warmer spring may have helped to quell the virus there so that it will have more people to target down there as less have had it per head of population.
Or does anyone have reliable figures?

 

[Mr_Slot5]

Was working with a colleague last night, back after 3 weeks off with COVID. It hurt me to see even moving a few metres she could not breathe properly. Tears running down her face and gasping for air. She has been signed off work for another 2 weeks now in the hope her breathing improves in that time.

She had no prior issues with her lungs and is only 51.

 

[cncas2123]

Was working with a colleague last night, back after 3 weeks off with COVID. It hurt me to see even moving a few metres she could not breathe properly. Tears running down her face and gasping for air. She has been signed off work for another 2 weeks now in the hope her breathing improves in that time.

She had no prior issues with her lungs and is only 51.

Yet many will say its no worse than a flu, and it wont do you any harm if you get it.....

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I think some people will only believe how incredibly nasty Covid-19 can be when they see it for themselves.

It absolutely can and does utterly destroy the health of relatively young and fit people.

There are very large numbers of people who were infected back in March and April, they didn't die, they never went to hospital, and yet even today they basically have no quality of life. Covid-19 is no joke, it's not the flu, and giving it comedy names like 'The Wuhan Wheezer' helps no one.

It is a new, highly infectious, dangerous disease that we are still a long way from fully understanding.

Underestimate it at your peril, and the peril of everyone you come into contact with.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Nearly 500 Covid deaths in the last 24 hours in the UK, over 25,000 new cases, and the numbers are going to get higher before they peak again. (Highest number of daily deaths for five months.)

NHS moves to its highest alert level.

Whether or not the lockdown will be too late to prevent loss of life on the scale we saw earlier in the year remains to be seen. (And of course, it's not just the loss of life, as we know now, it's the many thousands of people who will be left with the debilitating effects of Long-Covid.)

 

[mack341]

 

[shadow123]

All the signs are that daily deaths in the UK will soon exceed those in the first wave, 100 up on yesterday.
The lockdown hasnt started yet so any effects it might have wont show up for weeks.
Another track and trace balls up admitted yesterday, incorrect isolation dates given to thousands
of people who tested positive,one simple calculation, hard to get that wrong and harder for no one
to pick up on it.
Really wish we could have some good news to end the year with, we deserve it after all the shit we have
had so far.
Mack posted above while i was writing this,just shows what could happen.

 

[slotplayer]

Wake me on the first day of spring, 2021

 

[mack341]

 

[mack341]

Boris walked out and couldn't even pay her the courtesy of listening for 4 mins, what an arrogant plonker who can't cope with scrutiny of his decisions, the debate was set at 90 mins and then extended to 3hrs, still a ridiculously small amount of time re a subject like this.

 

[Playford7]

Boris walked out and couldn't even pay her the courtesy of listening for 4 mins, what a plonker who can't cope with scrutiny of his decisions, the debate was set at 90 mins and then extended to 3hrs, still a ridiculously small amount of time re a subject like this.

As a conservative i can’t possibly see how much more of a monumental bumfluffary of this whole affair they could of made in all honesty.

genuinely past caring and hearing about what boris, Hancock and that silly plonker witty have to say.

 

[sufferinsilence]

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[Playford7]

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

That’s actually the worst and most saddening news I’ve heard throughout this whole virus

 

[mack341]

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Didn't really know about this mink fur farming, could be seen as a bit of a saving grace as they have no life.

 

[Playford7]

Didn't really know about this mink fur farming, could be seen as a bit of a saving grace as they have no life.

Couldn’t watch that mack, hate any harm to animals.

 

[dealer wins]

I am ashamed to be British tonight.

 

[shadow123]

Sorry this lockdown is a joke and wont do a fucking thing to help infections, might as well leave the pubs
open for all the difference it would make.One new thing is weddings are banned.

Things you can still do

Only leave your home for specific reasons - for childcare or education, work if you cannot work from home, to exercise outdoors or visit an outdoor public place, medical reasons, to escape injury or harm, shop for food and essentials, to provide care for vulnerable people or visit people in your support bubble, or as a volunteer. People can also leave the home to attend an event commemorating Remembrance Sunday. Visiting estate agents and show homes is also permitted and people are allowed to move house. Visits to waste disposal or recycling centres are also allowed.
Also you can visit 19 types of shops


no one wants restrictions but if your going to do it, do it properly,think Boris is fast running out of chances
to get it right

 

[colinsunderland]

I am ashamed to be British tonight.

Care to post the rest of the story rather than the Daily Mail type tweet?
Very convenient that the video cuts off exactly at the point where the reason for arrest was stated.
The police were called as there was an allegation of assault by the care home staff, thats why the lady was arrested. What would you like them to do, not show up when someones allegedly been assaulted?

 

[colinsunderland]

Sorry this lockdown is a joke and wont do a fucking thing to help infections, might as well leave the pubs
open for all the difference it would make.One new thing is weddings are banned.

Things you can still do

Only leave your home for specific reasons - for childcare or education, work if you cannot work from home, to exercise outdoors or visit an outdoor public place, medical reasons, to escape injury or harm, shop for food and essentials, to provide care for vulnerable people or visit people in your support bubble, or as a volunteer. People can also leave the home to attend an event commemorating Remembrance Sunday. Visiting estate agents and show homes is also permitted and people are allowed to move house. Visits to waste disposal or recycling centres are also allowed.
Also you can visit 19 types of shops


no one wants restrictions but if your going to do it, do it properly,think Boris is fast running out of chances
to get it right

Most of those were allowed in the last lockdown weren't they, the major exception being Education.
Problem with closing Uni's (in particular) is the current high infections there. Send thousands of students home and it will be spread all over the place.

 

[mack341]

Touching someone's arm [even accidentally] counts as assault to some demented officials, I trust my instincts that the lady filming & her mother don't look or sound like that type of criminal, but know some officious people can be a royal pain in the ass.

 

[colinsunderland]

Touching someone's arm [even accidentally] counts as assault to some demented officials, I trust my instincts that the lady filming & her mother don't look or sound like that type of criminal, but know some officious people can be a royal pain in the ass.

Yes, but the ladies own account of it does suggest it got heated

She said: "The lady opened the door at which point my mother used the flowers to barge her way in.

"She was just saying, 'Don't get in the way of me and my mother, let me get to my mother'.

Problem is, if the home reported her for assault, and most likely for taking her mother away, then as they left the scene, obviously they had to do something. Her daughter even said herself she didn't have an issue with the police

“The police were as kind as they could be, they had a hard job. I thank them for trying their best and de-arresting my Mum so we could go home together.

“The issues are with the 'guidelines' and with so much fear preventing creative problem solving. Relatives need to be given key-worker status.

 

[mack341]

Yes, but the ladies own account of it does suggest it got heated

She said: "The lady opened the door at which point my mother used the flowers to barge her way in.

"She was just saying, 'Don't get in the way of me and my mother, let me get to my mother'.

Problem is, if the home reported her for assault, and most likely for taking her mother away, then as they left the scene, obviously they had to do something. Her daughter even said herself she didn't have an issue with the police

“The police were as kind as they could be, they had a hard job. I thank them for trying their best and de-arresting my Mum so we could go home together.

“The issues are with the 'guidelines' and with so much fear preventing creative problem solving. Relatives need to be given key-worker status.

Yes I can imagine many are frightened, that if something was to happen to the 97yr old, they'll then face consequences from the state for not stopping the lady leaving, as she is in 'their care'.

This is where we are now in this country, when common sense seems to have gone out of the window [not just regarding 2020 and covid] and the state gets between and involved in things they shouldn't, and yet ignores more serious things when they should be involved.

 

[colinsunderland]

Yes I can imagine many are frightened, that if something was to happen to the 97yr old, they'll then face consequences from the state for not stopping the lady leaving, as she is in 'their care'.

This is where we are now in this country, when common sense seems to have gone out of the window [not just regarding 2020 and covid] and the state gets between and involved in things they shouldn't, and yet ignores more serious things when they should be involved.

there's definitely more to the story, it sounds as if the care home had the legal duty to care, therefore couldn't legally release her to the families care.

“I have tried to go through all the 'official channels' - written countless letters to MPs, Public Health, the Care home… “I have signed petitions, spoken to social workers, we raised a 'safe-guarding' concern at the beginning of lockdown due to my Nan's clear deterioration but this was inexplicably dropped and 'disappeared'.

I can't decide which way to view that. You could argue it actually makes it worse, as the family were fully aware they couldn't just turn up and take her away from the home. The lady who was arrested most certainly would have been fully aware of the legal position, due to being a retired nurse.

Having said that, if my nan was in a care home and I genuinely believed she wasn't being looked after properly, wild horses wouldn't stop me getting her out of there, so I do completely understand the families frustration . I wouldn't then post an inflammatory, edited video on social media though.

 

[colinsunderland]

'People dying in hospital now admitted around mid-October on average. Hospital admissions since then have almost doubled in England. They have doubled in the North East and Yorkshire.

Name Average daily hospital admissions in the 7 days to 2nd November Average daily hospital admissions in the 7 days to 15th October
ENGLAND
1,248
659
East of England
62
27
London
127
65
Midlands
261
116
North East and Yorkshire
327
168
North West
299
216
South East
93
38
South West
78
30

 

[mack341]

there's definitely more to the story, it sounds as if the care home had the legal duty to care, therefore couldn't legally release her to the families care.

“I have tried to go through all the 'official channels' - written countless letters to MPs, Public Health, the Care home… “I have signed petitions, spoken to social workers, we raised a 'safe-guarding' concern at the beginning of lockdown due to my Nan's clear deterioration but this was inexplicably dropped and 'disappeared'.

I can't decide which way to view that. You could argue it actually makes it worse, as the family were fully aware they couldn't just turn up and take her away from the home. The lady who was arrested most certainly would have been fully aware of the legal position, due to being a retired nurse.

Having said that, if my nan was in a care home and I genuinely believed she wasn't being looked after properly, wild horses wouldn't stop me getting her out of there, so I do completely understand the families frustration . I wouldn't then post an inflammatory, edited video on social media though.

I think it was the fact she had been isolated for 9 months or so, and at that age you haven't got long, and will deteriorate without seeing relatives and family.

I feel for the lady's family and can just imagine the runaround the authorities have been giving them through the official channels.

 

[Spikie]

Nearly 500 Covid deaths in the last 24 hours in the UK, over 25,000 new cases, and the numbers are going to get higher before they peak again. (Highest number of daily deaths for five months.)

Don’t want to pour water on the fire , but I’m not sure where you get the figure of 500 from Chopley.

Latest daily death figures published on the NHS England website show under 200 a day .

Unless there is more up to date data ? This shows up until yesterday.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[Borgie]

I am sure Chopley will respond but he may be talking about uk deaths not just England.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Yes there was a clue in the post

 

[mack341]

'People dying in hospital now admitted around mid-October on average. Hospital admissions since then have almost doubled in England. They have doubled in the North East and Yorkshire.

Name Average daily hospital admissions in the 7 days to 2nd November Average daily hospital admissions in the 7 days to 15th October
ENGLAND
1,248
659
East of England
62
27
London
127
65
Midlands
261
116
North East and Yorkshire
327
168
North West
299
216
South East
93
38
South West
78
30

Not 100% certain on this but heard or read recently, that a 'hospital admission' does not mean the person is now lying in a hospital bed.

Considering the size and pop of london, their numbers don't look that serious and certainly not 'pandemic' level.

 

[colinsunderland]

Not 100% certain on this but heard or read recently, that a 'hospital admission' does not mean the person is now lying in a hospital bed.

Considering the size and pop of london, their numbers don't look that serious and certainly not 'pandemic' level.

Not sure about that, but what does it mean?

The figures show massive increases

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

People in hospital beds with Covid, just used the first and last dates available

01/08/2020 vs 04/11/2020

879 vs 11037

People on mechanical ventilators, same dates

74 vs 944

 

[mack341]

Not sure about that, but what does it mean?

The figures show massive increases

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

People in hospital beds with Covid, just used the first and last dates available

01/08/2020 vs 04/11/2020

879 vs 11037

People on mechanical ventilators, same dates

74 vs 944

Unable to open that file but how are london's figures specifically, bearing in mind: large bame population, densely populated and other factors of poor health.

They should be going through the roof for icu etc...in a deadly pandemic scenario?

The virus has no regional bias, hitting the north more than the south, unless London has already built up some immunity?

 

[mack341]

 

[Spikie]

So if there were 500 deaths in UK , but only 200 in England , then that means Wales , NI and Scotland must have 300 .

Population of Wales is 3.1 million . Scotland has 5.4 million. Northern Ireland 1.8 million.

total rest of UK population circa 10 million
England over 55.9 million population .

so again, England had deaths of under 200 people , for a population 5.6 times greater than the rest of the UK . But the rest of the UK has 1.5 x more deaths than England has.

No reason for a lockdown in England then .
Just close Wales , Scotland and Northern Ireland.

scary figures get quoted without putting them into context.

 

[Spikie]

 

[Spikie]

2nd of November there was 9 deaths in London. 42 in the midlands. 47 in the North West.

Actually only 157 deaths on 2nd November in England . 20 less than the day before .

and if you look at the 7 days previous deaths have gone down by 20%

 

[paul7388]

And 15 million deaths in Denmark. Poor wee mink.

 

[colinsunderland]

2nd of November there was 9 deaths in London. 42 in the midlands. 47 in the North West.

Actually only 157 deaths on 2nd November in England . 20 less than the day before .

and if you look at the 7 days previous deaths have gone down by 20%

Where are you getting your figures from? Monday data is historically low due to the weekend so ignore that drop.

 

[interlog]

I think some people will only believe how incredibly nasty Covid-19 can be when they see it for themselves.

It absolutely can and does utterly destroy the health of relatively young and fit people.

There are very large numbers of people who were infected back in March and April, they didn't die, they never went to hospital, and yet even today they basically have no quality of life. Covid-19 is no joke, it's not the flu, and giving it comedy names like 'The Wuhan Wheezer' helps no one.

It is a new, highly infectious, dangerous disease that we are still a long way from fully understanding.

Underestimate it at your peril, and the peril of everyone you come into contact with.

But then on the flip side of the coin, I know of people that are currently self isolating because they tested Covid-19 positive yet are nowhere near deaths door. They just suffer from ordinary flu like symptoms.

 

[Jono777]

.....plus I've also read countless times (surely they cannot ALL be wrong) that a (very?) high percentage of those who get it, get next to no (if even any) symptoms at all, possibly not even knowing they've got it / had it.

Always trying to look on the positive side of things even when nigh on impossible me!

 

[Spikie]

Where are you getting your figures from? Monday data is historically low due to the weekend so ignore that drop.

This is the daily NHS statistics reported on the UK government NHS website .
They are updated every day.
I think they are accurate......

I have just read the notes , and it only covers people that get into the hospital system. Not people that don’t.
So if there are lots of people dying outside hospital then they need to sort that out.

 

[paul7388]

ALways hearing about long covid and how it will affect many healthy people for years to come.

Yet again it is not scientifically proven yet.

And people seem to forget that the normal bloody flu hits many people bad and they suffer for months after feeling so drained and lethargic.

If it was not for the vaccine flu would kill far more people every year than Covid has got close to . Hence the reason every year anyone at risk gets a vaccine.

So once the vaccine comes for Covid then we will see if it is such a deadly disease or not compared to all the other diseases with vaccines.

 

[Spikie]

Also the flu vaccine changes every year to cover mutations .

so the covid vaccine will also need to change regularly to evolve along with the virus. I can’t see it being totally effective by a long way . As you can’t kill a virus.

 

[mack341]

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

[bbc]

Covid: Regulator criticises data used to justify lockdown


The government has been criticised by the official statistics watchdog for the way it presented data to justify England's second lockdown.
The UK Statistics Authority highlighted the use of modelling at Saturday's TV briefing showing the possible death toll from Covid this winter.
It said there needed to be more transparency about data and how predictions were being made.
The projections were out of date and over-estimated deaths, it has emerged.

A forecast made by Public Health England and Cambridge University said the country could soon be seeing more than 4,000 deaths a day.

The projection was made weeks ago and had forecast there would be 1,000 deaths a day by the end of October when the average was actually four times less than that - a fact that was known at the time of Saturday's TV briefing.

 

[paul7388]

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

[bbc]

Covid: Regulator criticises data used to justify lockdown


The government has been criticised by the official statistics watchdog for the way it presented data to justify England's second lockdown.
The UK Statistics Authority highlighted the use of modelling at Saturday's TV briefing showing the possible death toll from Covid this winter.
It said there needed to be more transparency about data and how predictions were being made.
The projections were out of date and over-estimated deaths, it has emerged.

A forecast made by Public Health England and Cambridge University said the country could soon be seeing more than 4,000 deaths a day.

The projection was made weeks ago and had forecast there would be 1,000 deaths a day by the end of October when the average was actually four times less than that - a fact that was known at the time of Saturday's TV briefing.

Exactly. The figures quoted are simply scaremongering and thinking worst case scenario with no facts at all to back it up.

Tho some will still come back with the usual stuff about how this is the deadliest thing out and how much damage it has done.

Here is a simple statistic and fact. Many countries it is still totally out of control and cases are way higher than we will ever see here. USA, Brazil, India too name 3. Those 3 countries alone including 2 with real crap healthcare reported about 180,000 new cases alone yesterday.

Yet worldwide deaths yesterday were reported at 9.057. Now that is a reported fact. Same as the day before the official world rate was just over 8,000.

Now those figures are facts. And we keep hearing UK is behind rest of Europe where just about every country is getting hit bad and it will get worse here. But seriously people keep going on about science says. Well not sure how the hell they can be predicting that in UK where we have better Medical care than most and only a population of 65 million or so that we will be soon getting 4,000 deaths a day. Half of total daily death rate of world.

Sorry but those figures backed by fact of worldwide deaths are total scaremongering.

No doubt tho same people will quote some article they have read that proves what is proven to be happening in world is wrong.

 

[sufferinsilence]

Also the flu vaccine changes every year to cover mutations .

so the covid vaccine will also need to change regularly to evolve along with the virus. I can’t see it being totally effective by a long way . As you can’t kill a virus.

You can't exactly eradicate a virus but once enough people are immune (by vaccine or naturally) it won't find a host and will have to mutate to find one. Mutations usually mean the virus gets weaker and the illness gets less severe.

So even if it will never be gone because it's very widespread scientists are positive that in the future it won't cause much more than cold symptoms, even in the category that's more at risk.

 

[slotplayer]

Are you sure?

 

[slotplayer]

I'll even post my state - 7th out 50 states in deaths (used to be 3rd)

And Florida 4th in deaths out of 50 states

 

[paul7388]

Are you sure?

View attachment 144430



View attachment 144431

Is who sure. Just wondering who you are replying to with the USA deaths compared to UK deaths.

 

[slotplayer]

Is who sure. Just wondering who you are replying to with the USA deaths compared to UK deaths.

yes, you said it was out of control here. Cases are way up but not deaths thus far.

Look at California, 39.5 million people

 

[paul7388]

yes, you said it was out of control here. Cases are way up but not deaths thus far.

Look at California, 39.5 million peopleView attachment 144435

That is what i was trying to say.

I only quoted the 3 countries as they are the 3 with the highest daily cases. But like i was showing and you have just backed up the deaths are not that high.

Which is why i was saying looking at all the cases in the world why are we still getting fed the crap that if we do not lockdown we will be getting 4,000 deaths daily.

As you just showed even with a lot more daily cases than UK will probably ever get your death rates are still less than a quarter of the figures we are getting told will happen in this country.