Corona virus - Covid 19 discussion

[colinsunderland]

I hope your right about this. Has it worked well in Sweden?

I would reconsider my stance if I had witnessed some kind of evidence or felt this was a majority train of thought because im in the dark over it all really and only pick up snippets here and there or chat about it now and again.

I don't feel I can rely on any UK government source of info and have not got the impression that vaccines are working that efficiently.

I don't know why you think you can't rely on the official figures, what do they have to gain by lying?

Anyway, the official figures clearly show the vaccine is working. Just picking the last time the cases are what they are now, which was the 3rd Jan

Cases

03-01-2021 55,173
15-07-2021 55,408

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Ventilation

03-01-2021 2,420
15-07-2021 551

Admitted to Hospital

03-01-2021 3,648
13-07-2021 740

In Hospital

03-01-2021 29,033
15-07-2021 3,964

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They are massively lower now than they were before people were vaccinated.

 

[Gaz237]

Just to add my thoughts to this, Ink it's down to ignorance more than anything when people do this thi. The vaccine doesn't stop transmission, it reduces it yes, but if someone fully vaccinated has it, you still have a fair chance of catching it from them.

I had window fitters in 2 weeks ago, 4 lads, all over the house, replacing every window. A few days later I had carpet fitters in, 3 lads, all over the house, moving furniture etc. Made them all coffees, so they were drinking out of my cups etc. It didn't even cross my mind to ask if they were vaccinated.

If I was going to ask for anything from someone coming into my house, I would much prefer to know they had had a recent test that was negative, than knowing they were vaccinated.

Well i,m certainly not ignorant.

I just have a different opinion to yourself and agree with the people who only want vaccinated people.

Nothing to do with facts or figures. I just personally do not want non vaccinated people is my house. Theres still too many unknown variables with covid

This is still quite early in the vaccination stage and will take a while before completion, Going back to my Son he has worked there for 6 years since leaving school, His sister is also the manager of the shop. So for them to warn him they will have to lay him off this early into the vaccination stage, shows a lot of peoples opinions are changing, otherwise they could of just sent him on other jobs. So the people that request vaccinated people only must on the rise and i think it will snowball.

Also his Sister has told me people are requesting proof of vaccination from delivery drivers and refusing to take delivery if they dont have it. Most are too young to have had a chance to have received the second jab yet. This also started with one customer, but now, often they are requested to leave furniture outside.

So public confidence if far from growing.

I,m off to the shop now and will be wearing my mask, will be interesting to see how many others still are.

Edit----Saw about 30 people, in two shops. All were wearing masks, including all the staff.

So i guess in these parts no one is feeling the urge or confidence to go bare back.

Usual bunch of tossers on FB celebrating freedom day.

 

[bamberfishcake]

I don't know why you think you can't rely on the official figures, what do they have to gain by lying?

That is a big question for me.

I personally don't know how you can rely on it. I'll take the word of a swede dressed as a bear over any of those buffoons any day

In my area admissions are on the rise, is that a result of the relaxed measures?

Are the good results recently an outcome of the lockdown period. Peaks and troughs are affected weeks before and a measure of previous plans.

 

[colinsunderland]

Well i,m certainly not ignorant.

I just have a different opinion to yourself and agree with the people who only want vaccinated people.

Nothing to do with facts or figures. I just personally do not want non vaccinated people is my house. Theres still too many unknown variables with covid

This is still quite early in the vaccination stage and will take a while before completion, Going back to my Son he has worked there for 6 years since leaving school, His sister is also the manager of the shop. So for them to warn him they will have to lay him off this early into the vaccination stage, shows a lot of peoples opinions are changing, otherwise they could of just sent him on other jobs. So the people that request vaccinated people only must on the rise and i think it will snowball.

Also his Sister has told me people are requesting proof of vaccination from delivery drivers and refusing to take delivery if they dont have it. Most are too young to have had a chance to have received the second jab yet. This also started with one customer, but now, often they are requested to leave furniture outside.

So public confidence if far from growing.

I,m off to the shop now and will be wearing my mask, will be interesting to see how many others still are.

ok, so simple question
Two tradesmen turn up at your door. You can only let one in.
One is fully vaccinated but has Covid.
One has no vaccination but had a test an hour previously showing negative.
Which one do you let in?

And i certainly wasn't meaning you are ignorant, I meant ignorance as a whole, as in the information people are being given is conflicting and people don't understand it. Ignorance by the government by promoting the mixed messages. Like, as an example, don't have to wear a mask from today gives the impression everythings ok. But in the same sentence they tell you they want you to wear one, implying it isn't ok. So what should people believe? The leadership is a joke

That is a big question for me.

I personally don't know how you can rely on it. I'll take the word of a swede dressed as a bear over any of those buffoons any day

In my area admissions are on the rise, is that a result of the relaxed measures?

Are the good results recently an outcome of the lockdown period. Peaks and troughs are affected weeks before and a measure of previous plans.

So what are you basing your understanding that admissions are rising in your area on?

I would say the increase in cases is a result of relaxed measures, and then you get the obvious follow ons that admissions, ventilator use and deaths rise. The difference is this time, they haven't rose anywhere close to what they have any time before the vaccine was rolled out. If this vaccine hasn't caused this, then what has?

I don't understand your last sentence at all. Theres been pretty much no restrictions now for months, yes on paper there have, but being honest, apart from mask wearing, and odd businesses still being closed, the country has been pretty much back to normal for ages, or at least thats the impression I get. Regardless of that though, the cases are at the same level as early January, the hospitalisations and deaths are nowhere near that level. How could restrictions affect those figures? Social distancing doesn't stop someone dying if they already have Covid, it stops them getting it in the first place.

 

[Gaz237]

ok, so simple question
Two tradesmen turn up at your door. You can only let one in.
One is fully vaccinated but has Covid.
One has no vaccination but had a test an hour previously showing negative.
Which one do you let in?

And i certainly wasn't meaning you are ignorant, I meant ignorance as a whole, as in the information people are being given is conflicting and people don't understand it. Ignorance by the government by promoting the mixed messages. Like, as an example, don't have to wear a mask from today gives the impression everythings ok. But in the same sentence they tell you they want you to wear one, implying it isn't ok. So what should people believe? The leadership is a joke


So what are you basing your understanding that admissions are rising in your area on?

I would say the increase in cases is a result of relaxed measures, and then you get the obvious follow ons that admissions, ventilator use and deaths rise. The difference is this time, they haven't rose anywhere close to what they have any time before the vaccine was rolled out. If this vaccine hasn't caused this, then what has?

I don't understand your last sentence at all. Theres been pretty much no restrictions now for months, yes on paper there have, but being honest, apart from mask wearing, and odd businesses still being closed, the country has been pretty much back to normal for ages, or at least thats the impression I get. Regardless of that though, the cases are at the same level as early January, the hospitalisations and deaths are nowhere near that level. How could restrictions affect those figures? Social distancing doesn't stop someone dying if they already have Covid, it stops them getting it in the first place.

Obviously the second one. If pushed

I would still want him masked up though.

I forgot to say My Son's company, which is family run with about 30 employees, nobody refused the jab.

They go one step further and every employee has to take two of those 30 min tests a week, weather they deal with the public or not. I think that is really responsible and being very proactive. Would be good if other companies follow suit


As for the government. The daily 5pm briefings by Boris were complete gobbledegook. supposedly written by professionals.

I stopped watching them in the end as they would start by telling us one thing and finish by telling us the opposite.


Edit---Just to add , as you asked Bamber what he based his increased admissions on.

I can only say how i base mine which is i have two old school friends one a Sister who work at one each of the local hospitals. ( I say local but both are are over 1 hour away, we tend to get the helicopter sent being so far out.

They have both said they are back to patients being kept long term in the hallways as wards are chocker and all non essential operations cancelled, Now i prefer my facts to come from the horses mouth.

Ok if they are vacced up they should recover quicker, but now we have all clubs, pubs ect open, Where are these extra patients going to go?.

 

[bamberfishcake]

ok, so simple question
Two tradesmen turn up at your door. You can only let one in.
One is fully vaccinated but has Covid.
One has no vaccination but had a test an hour previously showing negative.
Which one do you let in?

And i certainly wasn't meaning you are ignorant, I meant ignorance as a whole, as in the information people are being given is conflicting and people don't understand it. Ignorance by the government by promoting the mixed messages. Like, as an example, don't have to wear a mask from today gives the impression everythings ok. But in the same sentence they tell you they want you to wear one, implying it isn't ok. So what should people believe? The leadership is a joke


So what are you basing your understanding that admissions are rising in your area on?

I would say the increase in cases is a result of relaxed measures, and then you get the obvious follow ons that admissions, ventilator use and deaths rise. The difference is this time, they haven't rose anywhere close to what they have any time before the vaccine was rolled out. If this vaccine hasn't caused this, then what has?

I don't understand your last sentence at all. Theres been pretty much no restrictions now for months, yes on paper there have, but being honest, apart from mask wearing, and odd businesses still being closed, the country has been pretty much back to normal for ages, or at least thats the impression I get. Regardless of that though, the cases are at the same level as early January, the hospitalisations and deaths are nowhere near that level. How could restrictions affect those figures? Social distancing doesn't stop someone dying if they already have Covid, it stops them getting it in the first place.

A school letter mentioned positive cases are up 240% in our area.

I also disagree that restrictions have been flaunted for ages but we can only speak how we find.

Hence, my distrust with UK information as I find it untrustworthy.

 

[Gaz237]

A school letter mentioned positive cases are up 240% in our area.

I also disagree that restrictions have been flaunted for ages but we can only speak how we find.

Hence, my distrust with UK information as I find it untrustworthy.

Others in my village got the same letter, but we are pretty shielded this far out and cases are in the singular.

Says Chelsmford in my profile, but you need to drive directly east with just a touch of south for about 1hr 20 mins to reach us, so pretty remote

 

[mack341]

Reading today's posts and some thoughts, lockdown has felt over for a while certainly compared to last year, lots of people out and about, commuter bike racks still empty though. The purpose of the vax as mentioned doesn't seem to have got through to the media and in a way the govt/and advisers, it's them that keep highlighting the 'cases' number, rather than the ratio to hospitalisations compared to before the vax roll out, the good news aspect.

Regarding employers mandating the vax, if they go down this route they should have to be liable for any injury [long term not a sore arm or feeling rough for a bit] I think if you went to your docs for the jab, and said i'm only having this because i'll lose my job otherwise, not sure that would pass the classic consent and ethical tests, it is a form of coercion for a medical action that is not risk free, if they administer it then they're facilitating coercion.

I know this is a bit of a philosophical question of medical ethics, some reading this may think "by 'eck jus get your f**king jab!"

 

[Kroffe]

I personally don't know how you can rely on it. I'll take the word of a swede dressed as a bear over any of those buffoons any day

No wonder, we Swedes do have a history of doing everything right.

 

[colinsunderland]

Obviously the second one. If pushed

I would still want him masked up though.

I forgot to say My Son's company, which is family run with about 30 employees, nobody refused the jab.

They go one step further and every employee has to take two of those 30 min tests a week, weather they deal with the public or not. I think that is really responsible and being very proactive. Would be good if other companies follow suit


As for the government. The daily 5pm briefings by Boris were complete gobbledegook. supposedly written by professionals.

I stopped watching them in the end as they would start by telling us one thing and finish by telling us the opposite.


Edit---Just to add , as you asked Bamber what he based his increased admissions on.

I can only say how i base mine which is i have two old school friends one a Sister who work at one each of the local hospitals. ( I say local but both are are over 1 hour away, we tend to get the helicopter sent being so far out.

They have both said they are back to patients being kept long term in the hallways as wards are chocker and all non essential operations cancelled, Now i prefer my facts to come from the horses mouth.

Ok if they are vacced up they should recover quicker, but now we have all clubs, pubs ect open, Where are these extra patients going to go?.

Thats the point I was trying to make, yes being vaccinated is good if you are bringing people in, but I would much prefer to see a negative test as someone double vaccinated could still be carrying it.
Your son's firm does sound good, and as you say, it would be good if others followed suit.

Hospitals here are the same, not cancelling loads of ops yet, but no visitors allowed since last weds due to the rise in cases and admissions. I know you say you prefer your facts from your friends directly, but they are saying the same thing the NHS and government figures are saying, that numbers are rising across the board, so surely that adds weight to the official figures being correct?

A school letter mentioned positive cases are up 240% in our area.

I also disagree that restrictions have been flaunted for ages but we can only speak how we find.

Hence, my distrust with UK information as I find it untrustworthy.

Not being funny, but where do you think the schools get their information from? They wouldn't be allowed to just pluck a figure out the air and quote it as fact, they will be coming from the coronavirus dashboard. Also, stating percentages doesn't help now. If you are in a city with 300000 people and there was 1 case yesterday, then 10 today, a 1000% increase sounds horrendous, but in fact it's a tiny percentage of people in that area got it. Thats something I've noticed the media doing recently, instead of quoting numbers, they are saying what percentage things have increased by. Think it was the mail not so long ago had a headline screaming a 400% increase in deaths in one area, there was 1 the previous day, 4 the next, there was 5 a week previous, but they didn't mention a 20% decrease in deaths in a week.

As for the restrictions, you might not have seen them being flaunted recently, but they certainly have been here and in a lot of other areas. The picture below is in London the night of the final, do they look like they are social distancing?

Obviously thats one extreme, but down the beach yesterday people were practically sitting on top of each other, sharing benches etc.

 

[interlog]

I'm fully against mandatory vaccinations in most cases, but do think there are certain settings where they should certainly be strongly encouraged, if not mandatory, like in care homes, care providers, and healthcare.

Lets be honest, however much you are against them being mandatory, I think most people would be a bit nervous about their 90 year old grandmother being in a care home staffed by mainly under 30 year old girls who are out clubbing every weekend, who all refused the vaccination.

On the other hand, I don't think many people would care if a load of factory workers decided not to get vaccinated.

See that is where I am lost.... the vaccine doesn't stop you getting Covid (so I am led to believe) so that 90 year old grandmother may still get it from that 30 year old girl, whether the 30 year old girl is vaccinated or not

 

[colinsunderland]

See that is where I am lost.... the vaccine doesn't stop you getting Covid (so I am led to believe) so that 90 year old grandmother may still get it from that 30 year old girl, whether the 30 year old girl is vaccinated or not

Because it lowers transmission rates, but doesn't stop it. For me a test before going into work each day for them would be better, as if coupled with a vaccination would lower the risk substantially.

 

[paul7388]

Also read today that the hospital numbers are rising. Fair enough. But it is said 60% of hospital admissions have been double vaccinated which seems high to me.

The whole thing is a sham. If you have a negative covid test you will still not be allowed to enter crowded events but you can if you are double vaccinated. So hey i took a test and it came back negative. Tough. But i never took a test but have had 2 vaccines. Oh good you can enter and catch or pass it on to others who can then go infect many more.

Absolute crazy. But get impression people are thinking oh since that person has had 2 jags they are safe to enter my house or go to work. When having the vaccine makes no difference at all as to whether you will have the virus and pass it on to others.

 

[interlog]

Because it lowers transmission rates, but doesn't stop it. For me a test before going into work each day for them would be better, as if coupled with a vaccination would lower the risk substantially.

The test makes more sense rather than a compulsory vaccination that doesn't fully protect the virus spreading

 

[mack341]

What we need is some sort of breathlyser device which can detect covid in your system, 60 secs results, if positive you isolate.

 

[paul7388]

Put it this way the vaccine might make the virus infect you less severely. Tho amount of double vaccinated people now being admitted to hospital is concerning.

But the figures show that making rules for double vaccinated people to enter countries and not quarantine etc. is crazy. You just have to look at daily figures . They are getting higher than they have ever been and that is with so many vaccinated. So pretty clear most of the spread now is throgh vaccinated people.

 

[interlog]

The potential danger is that vaccination leads to a false sense of security.

 

[sufferinsilence]

What are the absolute numbers tho? And how would they compare if less people were vaccinated?

I'm sure some smart people have worked all this out but I'm too lazy to search for them.

 

[colinsunderland]

Put it this way the vaccine might make the virus infect you less severely. Tho amount of double vaccinated people now being admitted to hospital is concerning.

But the figures show that making rules for double vaccinated people to enter countries and not quarantine etc. is crazy. You just have to look at daily figures . They are getting higher than they have ever been and that is with so many vaccinated. So pretty clear most of the spread now is throgh vaccinated people.

I've never understood that. The vaccine has never, not since before it was approved for use even, claimed it stops you catching C19 or spreading it. Not for any of them. All I see is vaccination passports being threatened for alsorts of things, but I genuinely don't see how it will stop the spread. Slow it maybe as it does reduce transmission, although with this variant I'm not so sure it does.

Having said that, the numbers of people being admitted to hospital are far far lower than they have been previously, so the vaccine does work, and by all accounts the ones who do go into hospital and are double jabbed for >21 days are being released a lot quicker too.

 

[colinsunderland]

What are the absolute numbers tho? And how would they compare if less people were vaccinated?

I'm sure some smart people have worked all this out but I'm too lazy to search for them.

What do you mean? You can compare todays figures to the last time they were at this level and on an upward curve, which is what I did earlier, and see the numbers that matter are much lower.

 

[colinsunderland]

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Proof that people are fully vaccinated against coronavirus will be required to enter nightclubs and other "crowded venues" from the autumn, the government has said.

ffs

 

[sufferinsilence]

What do you mean? You can compare todays figures to the last time they were at this level and on an upward curve, which is what I did earlier, and see the numbers that matter are much lower.

The Delta variant is much more transmissable tho so a one-on-one comparison doesn't really work, it only gives an indication. After all the vaccines also reduce transmission rates.

 

[Mr_Slot5]

Put it this way the vaccine might make the virus infect you less severely. Tho amount of double vaccinated people now being admitted to hospital is concerning.

But the figures show that making rules for double vaccinated people to enter countries and not quarantine etc. is crazy. You just have to look at daily figures . They are getting higher than they have ever been and that is with so many vaccinated. So pretty clear most of the spread now is throgh vaccinated people.

The more people that are vaccinated, the higher % of people you'd expect to be vaccinated when admitted to hospital. It's simple maths.

The % of people who are not vaccinated was always going to be smaller at this point because the demographic that haven't been fully vaccinated were at little risk of hospitalisation in the first place.

 

[News Hound]

Unaffordable, the money has run out and borrowing is now at its limits.

This virus, does not warrant the extreme measures we have seen over the last 16 months, especially as it has been proven they dont work, and if anything make things worse.

I sincerely hope you are right and I am wrong.

 

[GordonotRamsay]

I hope people will be okay with the way things have gone, there are topics that will be talked about with this pandemic still going.

 

[mack341]

I expect attending sporting events will require double jabbing as well, seeing crowded places is mentioned, horse racing and football then for starters. France is apparently removing free tests, in a way that will see the published case numbers fall.

 

[colinsunderland]

I expect attending sporting events will require double jabbing as well, seeing crowded places is mentioned, horse racing and football then for starters. France is apparently removing free tests, in a way that will see the published case numbers fall.

It's to push people into being vaccinated. The new rules require a health pass, which is either a negative test in previous 48 hours, fully vaccinated or proof they have recovered from covid in the previous 6 months. Want to go to a shopping centre, to the cinema, for a coffee, out for drinks, for a meal etc, it's going to get quite expensive if you have to pay for a test each time. Or you can get vaccinated and not pay a thing.

 

[mack341]

It's to push people into being vaccinated. The new rules require a health pass, which is either a negative test in previous 48 hours, fully vaccinated or proof they have recovered from covid in the previous 6 months. Want to go to a shopping centre, to the cinema, for a coffee, out for drinks, for a meal etc, it's going to get quite expensive if you have to pay for a test each time. Or you can get vaccinated and not pay a thing.

Unless somebody is displaying symptoms it is highly unlikely they'd be exposing anyone to a high viral load, and with the vulnerable offered a jab they have that extra protection now, so we could have kept the 2019 old normal freedoms, maintaining an ethical balance with free consent and choice.

At a push i'd accept temporary requirements as with any emergency, but not changing long held freedoms for british citizens forever, on the back of a respiratory illness where a vax is freely available for those that require or want it.

 

[colinsunderland]

Unless somebody is displaying symptoms it is highly unlikely they'd be exposing anyone to a high viral load, and with the vulnerable offered a jab they have that extra protection now, so we could have kept the 2019 old normal freedoms, maintaining an ethical balance with free consent and choice.

At a push i'd accept temporary requirements as with any emergency, but not changing long held freedoms for british citizens forever, on the back of a respiratory illness where a vax is freely available for those that require or want it.

I was talking about the French system not the British one
I can see why they are pushing it though, the press conference in the uk yesterday stated 60% of people in hospital are unvaccinated (well after he corrected what he said lol), theres 18.5% of adults not had a jab yet, so less than a fifth of the population are creating creating the problems we are currently having in hospitals, with over half the admissions being down to them. From experience, that 18.5% are the most vocal about not getting vaccinated and how all restrictions should be lifted, at the same time causing the restrictions not to be.

 

[mack341]

I was talking about the French system not the British one
I can see why they are pushing it though, the press conference in the uk yesterday stated 60% of people in hospital are unvaccinated (well after he corrected what he said lol), theres 18.5% of adults not had a jab yet, so less than a fifth of the population are creating creating the problems we are currently having in hospitals, with over half the admissions being down to them. From experience, that 18.5% are the most vocal about not getting vaccinated and how all restrictions should be lifted, at the same time causing the restrictions not to be.

Is this the same picture in other heavily vaccinated countries or are a significant proportion in hospital double jabbed? I did see a recent pie chart for Uk hospitals, the covid section was small abt 5%, and a proportion of those were already in hospital for something else. [probably caught covid in there]

 

[colinsunderland]

Is this the same picture in other heavily vaccinated countries or are a significant proportion in hospital double jabbed? I did see a recent pie chart for Uk hospitals, the covid section was small abt 5%, and a proportion of those were already in hospital for something else. [probably caught covid in there]

I believe so, but don't quote me on it as I'm not 100% sure, just the impression I get from what I've read recently.
The data is out there for the uk, but it isn't exactly easy to find, and it takes time to compile then analyse it, which I haven't done, so it's more working from what you pick up elsewhere, plus the fact that each dataset is updated at different frequencys.

This is a decent summary, although you can see the datasets are from different dates (not the sites fault) and is outdated now as numbers have changed. Clearly shows the unvaccinated are/were making up a significant proportion of people in hospital.

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[sufferinsilence]

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“I’m admitting young healthy people to the hospital with very serious COVID infections,” wrote Cobia, a hospitalist at Grandview Medical Center in Birmingham, in an emotional

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. “One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late.”

In the United States, COVID is now a

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, according to the head of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. In Alabama, state officials report

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and

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since April were not fully vaccinated.

“A few days later when I call time of death,” continued Cobia on Facebook, “I hug their family members and I tell them the best way to honor their loved one is to go get vaccinated and encourage everyone they know to do the same.”

“They cry. And they tell me they didn’t know. They thought it was a hoax. They thought it was political. They thought because they had a certain blood type or a certain skin color they wouldn’t get as sick. They thought it was ‘just the flu’. But they were wrong. And they wish they could go back. But they can’t. So they thank me and they go get the vaccine. And I go back to my office, write their death note, and say a small prayer that this loss will save more lives.”

“I try to be very non-judgmental when I’m getting a new COVID patient that’s unvaccinated, but I really just started asking them, ‘Why haven’t you gotten the vaccine?’ And I’ll just ask it point blank, in the least judgmental way possible,” she said. “And most of them, they’re very honest, they give me answers. ‘I talked to this person, I saw this thing on Facebook, I got this email, I saw this on the news,’ you know, these are all the reasons that I didn’t get vaccinated.

“And the one question that I always ask them is, did you make an appointment with your primary care doctor and ask them for their opinion on whether or not you should receive the vaccine? And so far, nobody has answered yes to that question.”

 

[Spikie]

Vaccines are a personal choice, but when most people feel pressure to do something, they will do the opposite to rebel .

So forcing vaccines to the population will not work in many cases .

Also telling people that once they have the vaccine then everything is normal and the pressure on the nhs is lifted , so everyone’s free again …….. but then saying in October the rules might change again, Then that is not going to persuade anybody to have it either .

So stop changing the goalposts, people might be more accepting to it .

 

[slotmaster]

Ya well would like to go to my doctor but he is closed to live visits, I can't afford to go get it in some cases and I have had emergency issues every time I have gotten a needle. It's not that simple in some cases. I know I gotta go and right now I am only getting the first dose as everyone I know or who got the 2nd one got very sick.

 

[Jono777]

You know me mate and I was fine after both Pfizer jabs (touch wood)

Whilst I am here, at the risk of looking publicly stupid, I don't understand those bar charts @colinsunderland , help me out please mate....

I am 49 so looking more at the 2nd chart, do I understand correctly that a MASSIVE 43% of current hospitalisations have received 2 jabs of the vaccine?

I am strongly thinking this is not the case, otherwise my point would be along the lines that the jabs are pretty pointless with a figure so high, hence my stance that I had not read/understood it correctly

 

[colinsunderland]

You know me mate and I was fine after both Pfizer jabs (touch wood)

Whilst I am here, at the risk of looking publicly stupid, I don't understand those bar charts @colinsunderland , help me out please mate....

I am 49 so looking more at the 2nd chart, do I understand correctly that a MASSIVE 43% of current hospitalisations have received 2 jabs of the vaccine?

I am strongly thinking this is not the case, otherwise my point would be along the lines that the jabs are pretty pointless with a figure so high, hence my stance that I had not read/understood it correctly

ok, so you cant just look literally at the figures, which is a problem with just posting a bar chart, and why I linked to the article.
Although 43% of the over 50's in hospital are double jabbed, 79% of the population over 50 is double jabbed, so clearly there will be a higher percentage. From the link I posted

• For the under 50s, we can see that 46% of the population is unvaccinated but they make up 87% of admissions. Meanwhile, 21% of the population is fully vaccinated but they make up just 4% of admissions. This tells us that the risk to unvaccinated people under 50 is 11 times higher* than the risk to vaccinated people.
• For those aged 50 plus, we can see that just 5% of the population is unvaccinated but they make up 34% of admissions. Meanwhile, 79% of the population is fully vaccinated but they make up 43% of admissions. This tells us that the risk to unvaccinated people over 50 is 12 times higher* than the risk to vaccinated people.

So not really pointless when you look at it like that surely?

 

[Jono777]

No, not at all, as I suggested mate, I didn't fully understand the data.

What is seemingly becoming more and more pointless as time goes by, is trying to fully comprehend what is going on with this Covid lark.

Conflicting stories everywhere and backtracking from where I am sitting, making grasping even the simplest of concepts, nigh on impossible.

I appreciate your post for clarification but am still somewhat confused, maybe over tired. Its alarming (if I have this correct) that the current hospitalisations figure are higher for those double jabbed (43%) than those who have been nowhere near a single jab (34%)

 

[colinsunderland]

No, not at all, as I suggested mate, I didn't fully understand the data.

What is seemingly becoming more and more pointless as time goes by, is trying to fully comprehend what is going on with this Covid lark.

Conflicting stories everywhere and backtracking from where I am sitting, making grasping even the simplest of concepts, nigh on impossible.

I appreciate your post for clarification but am still somewhat confused, maybe over tired. Its alarming (if I have this correct) that the current hospitalisations figure are higher for those double jabbed (43%) than those who have been nowhere near a single jab (34%)

yes but there are only 5% of the population not had the vaccine in the over 50's. The vaccine doesn't stop you catching it, or being ill, it stops you (in most cases) becoming seriously ill, or dying. If 5% of the population are making 34% of the people in hospital, then the risk to that 5% is much greater.

Say you have 100 people walking across a busy road, 95 of them stop look and listen and attempt to cross when it's safe, and 5 shut their eyes and run out without looking.
If 20 people get knocked over and took to hospital, all 5 who didn't look, and 15 who did but were unlucky enough to get hit anyway, then 75% of the people in hospital are the careful ones, and 25% are the idiots who ran over without looking.
So there are 3 times as many people in hospital who were careful.
Does that mean it's pointless looking before you cross a road in future?

 

[Kroffe]

The bars make it look a bit misleading.
Whats alarming is that such a small % of the population (the 5% 50+ not vaccinated) make up such a large % of the total hospitalisations.
The 5% unvaccinated 50+ almost match 79% of the 50+ which goes to show that you run a much higher risk ending up in the hospital when catching covid if you are unvaccinated. Like Colin already said, 12 times more likely to end up in the hospital if unvaccinated and 50+ compared to the 50+ that are vaccinated.


But the real question is what a young man in his best years are doing looking at the 50+ stats.

 

[mack341]

Do the ones in hospital unvaccinated have comorbidities that have put them at increased risk from covid, the stats from the nhs need to be a bit more informative.

Are these covid exclusive admissions, from covid symptoms, or patients that caught covid from a high transmission area like a hospital while they were in there for cancer treatment or something else debilitating?

 

[sufferinsilence]

Majority of patients who end up in hospital will always have comorbidities or are immunocompromised in some form.

But does that make it somehow better?

 

[Kroffe]

Say you have 100 people, 99% of them are vaccinated, 1% not vaccinated.
All of them catch covid after attending the cornhole finals, 1 vaccinated, 1 unvaccinated end up in the hospital.

So you can now say Hospital admissions from that group is 50% vaccinated people 50% unvaccinated people, so whats the point in taking the vaccine, it doesnt seem to work.

Or you could say, 100% of the unvaccinated people in the group ended up in the hospital after catching covid while only 1.01% of the vaccinated people ended up in the hospital, the vaccine works great.

Its all about presentation how people will interpret the numbers.

Also, cornhole finals is a real thing.

 

[mack341]

Majority of patients who end up in hospital will always have comorbidities or are immunocompromised in some form.

But does that make it somehow better?

The simple statement: 60% of the hospitalised are unvaccinated is an incomplete summary/breadown for those reading/listening that are in good health. It also doesn't say where these hospitalised patients caught covid, there is the aspect of viral load, are you likely to be exposed to more in a hospital setting than in your place of work or the supermarket.

Trying to vaccinate the whole world is probably not going to leave us as a population in the optimum situation, I think it is better if the virus comes up against different challenges, not just specific spike antibodies. Immune escape is a greater possibility with that approach as we're seeing with the variants, otherwise everyone is going to be on a vaccine hamster wheel of boosters and updates. Personally speaking no thanks, I'll try to avoid it if I can.

 

[sufferinsilence]

The simple statement: 60% of the hospitalised are unvaccinated is an incomplete summary/breadown for those reading/listening that are in good health.

Trying to vaccinate the whole world is probably not going to leave us as a population in the optimum situation, I think it is better if the virus comes up against different challenges, not just specific spike antibodies. Immune escape is a greater possibility with that approach as we're seeing with the variants, otherwise everyone is going to be on a vaccine hamster wheel of boosters and updates. Personally speaking no thanks, I'll try to avoid it if I can.

If you don't want to be vaccinated simply don't. That's the only advice I can give.

The variants of interest and concern already popped up before mass vaccination tho.

 

[mack341]

If you don't want to be vaccinated simply don't. That's the only advice I can give.

The variants of interest and concern already popped up before mass vaccination tho.

This goes into geert vanden bossche territory, to my mind, the logic of a virus mutation to survive makes more sense of occurring if the virus keeps coming up against a similar defence; the immune system of a vaccinated person is primed to recognise that spike protein [or part of it] so if the virus can mutate it's spike section enough, the vaccinated immune response no longer works as well, some will develop covid, shedding viral particles and passing it on.

So to date it has been up mainly against the natural immune system, and therefore we have several regional mutations, but if it comes up only against immune systems primed for the spike, does that not change the evolution path...I don't know obviously, but it makes a kind of sense to me

Never put all your eggs in one basket is my thinking, precautionary principle rather than all in and no going back.

Edit: I'm not giving out medical advice here, just my thoughts on the situation. I had Flu twenty years ago and it almost killed me, well that's how it felt, but to this day I still don't get the flu jab, so on that basis I'm not going to get one of these covid jabs either.

That is just personal choice and also formed from not having as much belief in big pharma science as well. There might be someone reading who had a similar opinion to me but then changed his mind, due to some information or personal experience, so it's possible to change your opinion. Strong arm tactics and emotional manipulation from the govt and media simply have the opposite effect on me, what's wrong with positive encouragement and leave it at that.

 

[sufferinsilence]

This goes into geert vanden bossche territory, to my mind, the logic of a virus mutation to survive makes more sense of occurring if the virus keeps coming up against a similar defence; the immune system of a vaccinated person is primed to recognise that spike protein [or part of it] so if the virus can mutate it's spike section enough, the vaccinated immune response no longer works as well, some will develop covid, shedding viral particles and passing it on.

So to date it has been up mainly against the natural immune system, and therefore we have several regional mutations, but if it comes up only against immune systems primed for the spike, does that not change the evolution path...I don't know obviously, but it makes a kind of sense to me

Never put all your eggs in one basket is my thinking, precautionary principle rather than all in and no going back.

I'm not read in on all of that to be completely honest with you. We'll have to wait and see.

I'm fully vaccinated now, I was willing to go through this process once for the sake of it but unless we're seeing a more transmissable and deadly strain I don't know if I'm up to getting booster shots or updates or however they want to call it.

 

[News Hound]

What is concerning is that both shots / jabs do not ensure you won't catch it or end up in hospital. So far currently I personally know 7 people from my friend circle that have Covid. Of the 7, 4 are fully vaccinated adults and 3 are children. One of my friend's is in hospital in a bad way ( He is 49 with no pre existing conditions BTW ) on oxygen in a dedicated covid ward, after struggling for a week with it, before being taken into hospital Saturday just gone.

The other 6 are all self isolating and thankfully the children are proving to be resilient and on the mend as are the other adults.

So the upshot is, this is the first time during the entire time of the pandemic whereby I know so many people being hit by Covid, yet the vaccination rollout is in full swing.

I don't think life is ever going to return back to what we consider as 'normal'. Now the UK is fully opened back up ( Well England is ), already seeing loads of people not wearing masks in supermarkets and of course no longer practicing social distancing. There is going to be an explosion in the infection figures over the next few weeks.

I will not at all be surprised that we will then follow the Dutch and go back into some form of lockdown again by the time September is upon us.

 

[mack341]

Inhaling away the virus: Is the next generation of COVID vaccines on its way?​

Phase 1 trials have begun in London for a new nasal vaccine. [abc news] jan2021

“This vaccine is one of the first of the next generation COVID-19 vaccines, it is a single dose, needle free, intranasal, live attenuated COVID-19 virus vaccine.” Cathal Friel, Executive Chairman, of Open Orphan, the company running the trials said in a statement.

But this vaccine, called COVI-VAC, is different from current commercially available vaccines. It uses a “weakened form of the naturally occurring virus that will not cause disease but will generate a strong immune response,” explains Codagenix CEO Robert Coleman, PHD. “Historically, live attenuated vaccines have been very effective, providing long-lasting and broad immunity and typically relying on a single dose.”

Meanwhile, Coleman said, “the current mRNA, VLP, and adenovirus-based vaccines target only the Spike protein, limiting the range of antibodies that can be produced.”

And as Sybil Tasker, MD, MPH, Chief Medical Officer of Codagenix notes, COVI-VAC could be more effective at fighting mutant strains of the virus that may emerge in the future, “As a live attenuated vaccine, COVI-VAC has the potential to provide a broader immune response in comparison to other COVID-19 vaccines that target only a portion of the virus, which could prove critical as new variants of SARS-CoV-2 have begun to emerge.”

...The first small group of young healthy adult volunteers will be given the dose by dropping it into their nose and they will then be closely monitored and regularly tested. The trial will follow a standard dose escalation methodology.

“The first phase of this study is expected to provide the evidence to back up this expectation of a short duration of virus shedding in addition to demonstrating that the vaccine virus is indeed highly weakened and does not cause disease,” Catchpole told ABC News.

Unlike the vaccines that have been authorized, Codagenix believes its vaccine could provide long-term immunity against COVID-19, with only one or two doses needed over a lifetime, similar to that of the MMR or chicken pox vaccines.

“Most live attenuated vaccines by design cannot fully replicate viruses, this vaccine is different in that it can. Being able to do this maximizes the immune response and gets as natural as possible immune protection just as if the person were exposed to the actual virus,” Catchpole added.

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I have to say vax sceptic or not this sounds better to me than the current ones, subject to the other ingredients in it, I might consider this.

 

[mack341]

Relating to that doctor's story from alabama that SIS posted above, looking at the recent stats here:

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Apart from 3 counties that have registered 1 death for the 7-day average [and had the highest number of cases around 100 ] the rest are all zero deaths?? So currently it seems things aren't so doom laden as her comments made it seem like.

[31% of the population are fully vaccinated ]

 

[Borgie]

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