Betphoenixcasino.com Rival - Met WR, waiting on cashout process..

[FreeDomme]

If the litmus test on 'cleared excess winnings' is to apply to all casinos here I think some accredited would become rogue. Casinos make the rules we play by, we accept them. This was a glitch and now, under attack, the casino has decided to stand their ground rather than be bullied by a forum. Unfortunate, but not rogue.

 

[Nifty29]

You just made that rule up. It doesn't exist. I'm sorry, but you can't hold us to rules you make up. Doesn't work that way.



I can see how someone would assume it is cash. Even though it would be a bit strange given that no docs were sent in... But that doesn't make it cash. If you assume the dealer's erroneous payment in a blackjack table is correct, and you assume that the money is yours, it doesn't make it yours.

Assuming something does not make it the way you assume.



CASH-ABLE. There is a difference. Even if you don't want to see it.



Bottom line:
Player took a bonus
Player is cashing out the maximum cash out of the bonus

If player wants to reverse the bonus, the player can do so. You can try and argue that if we make a mistake where someone assumes something we are responsible for paying that person on that assumption. This argument holds little water with the way things work, online and off. If they did work that way, you'd be complaining casinos have a low RTP (even money BJ anyone?), because they'd have to make up for the loses of every assumption made after every mistake.

Last: in arguing with you nifty, I'm not arguing against our player. I'm really sorry for the issue. We have changed our procedures so it does not happen again. We just want to have a phone confirmation to get the player paid. I'd personally like to see the player paid, hopefully the player will be able to take our call so we can get the player paid ASAP.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

Complete nonsense. It makes absolutely NO sense at all, except to someone who was trying to shaft a player for $1000+.

What's this about 'erroneous payments'??? Who said anything about winnings being paid in error??? The BJ analogy is BS.

Why would the $75 be cashable i.e. CASH after reversing it? Oh I know - because the excess winnings had been removed! Yes, thats it! Just like the OP had done manually by your staff. Sorry? Whats that? It's NOT the same thing?? Why not?? ..because it isn't?? Why isn't it?? It just isn't. Ah well that's ok then.....

Jod is right. Its like pissing up a tree while standing on one's head.

I'll leave this to Max or CM to take further if they see fit.

 

[LaHutti]

I hope they do. This is utter bs, in my opinion.

 

[NicolasJohnson]

...



Sounds like BetPhoenix customer service made that rule up, not Nifty.

I probably shouldn't have posted in this thread in the first place but I mean, come on, really?

We made up the rule that if the excess winnings are removed the remaining is cash, with no restrictions? Can you please point to me anything that would back this up? I'm totally lost by your comment.

Complete nonsense. It makes absolutely NO sense at all, except to someone who was trying to shaft a player for $1000+.

What's this about 'erroneous payments'??? Who said anything about winnings being paid in error??? The BJ analogy is BS.

Why would the $75 be cashable i.e. CASH after reversing it? Oh I know - because the excess winnings had been removed!

You alone are defining a cash out as equal to removing excess winnings. You are inventing this rule. Doesn't exist. You keep talking like we have to follow the rules you make up, and that to me just doesn't make sense.

Yes, thats it! Just like the OP had done manually by your staff. Sorry? Whats that? It's NOT the same thing?? Why not?? ..because it isn't?? Why isn't it?? It just isn't. Ah well that's ok then.....

Jod is right. Its like pissing up a tree while standing on one's head.

I'll leave this to Max or CM to take further if they see fit.

Nifty, your argument is very naive. It is like getting a certificate of deposit at a bank and saying it is the same for the bank to give me my money back now, than keep it for the length of certificate of deposit.

The bank gives you interest on the certificate for fulfilling the requirements, and following the rules.

We give a free chip cash out for fulfilling the requirements and following the rules.

Rules say you need to cash out to be able to reverse. No other way around it. Player hadn't finished the cash out. In fact, the player still hasn't finished the cash out.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

 

[anonymouse]

We made up the rule that if the excess winnings are removed the remaining is cash, with no restrictions? Can you please point to me anything that would back this up? I'm totally lost by your comment.

If you're lost go back and read again. It's a two line post. I never said anything anywhere close to that. I didn't even mention the removal of excess winnings. The post I quoted from labeled said:

"Customer service cleared the coupon/ chip manually"

Customer service cleared the coupon, which to any logical person would mean that they also cleared the player of any requirements that were tied to that coupon. If CS screwed up that's on BP, not the player. So back asswards to publicly deny winnings in a situation like this. I guarantee I'll never be playing anywhere that you represent. BP is gonna lose a lot more than the OP.

Like I said in my first post in this thread I don't normally comment on other player's issues but this is pure anti-logic ridiculousness, I couldn't care less if the OP gets their money, it's the principle.

Stick a fork in me regarding this thread. (because I'm done...)

 

[Gremmyboy]

We made up the rule that if the excess winnings are removed the remaining is cash, with no restrictions? Can you please point to me anything that would back this up? I'm totally lost by your comment.



You alone are defining a cash out as equal to removing excess winnings. You are inventing this rule. Doesn't exist. You keep talking like we have to follow the rules you make up, and that to me just doesn't make sense.



Nifty, your argument is very naive. It is like getting a certificate of deposit at a bank and saying it is the same for the bank to give me my money back now, than keep it for the length of certificate of deposit.

The bank gives you interest on the certificate for fulfilling the requirements, and following the rules.

We give a free chip cash out for fulfilling the requirements and following the rules.

Rules say you need to cash out to be able to reverse. No other way around it. Player hadn't finished the cash out. In fact, the player still hasn't finished the cash out.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

Don't mean to be the devils advocate in this but I can see Nicholas' point.
The free chip of $30 I got from ClubWorld had a max of 10x cashout. I submitted my withdrawal of $330 and then the $30 bonus chip was removed and the $300 winnings were put back in to my account and I had to withdraw them again. The money was still tied to the bonus until I had physically withdrawn the money to my bank and would be considered a fresh deposit only when I redeposit it from my bank back to the casino. So it is common at other casinos too.
While I can see that this is confusing and annoying I can understand the casinos point of view.... They don't want a player turning a free chip with a 10x max cashout into a free chip with a 500x max cashout!
As long as the money is left in the casino and not removed I can see how it can be still considered as proceeds from the free chip and as such still tied to the terms and conditions of that bonus.
Can't have your cake and eat it too!
The casino was nice enough to give a free chip for you to try and win with so what is the problem in waiting the few days to withdraw and re-deposit the funds?

I swear sometimes the posts read that people seem to think that the casino should just pay up no matter what the rules are but on the other hand they should be shot down and chastised for the slightest misunderstanding!
The casinos provide a service and we should adhere to the terms of that service.

Just my 2cents

Cheers
Gremmy

 

[Nifty29]

Don't mean to be the devils advocate in this but I can see Nicholas' point.
The free chip of $30 I got from ClubWorld had a max of 10x cashout. I submitted my withdrawal of $330 and then the $30 bonus chip was removed and the $300 winnings were put back in to my account and I had to withdraw them again. The money was still tied to the bonus until I had physically withdrawn the money to my bank and would be considered a fresh deposit only when I redeposit it from my bank back to the casino. So it is common at other casinos too.
While I can see that this is confusing and annoying I can understand the casinos point of view.... They don't want a player turning a free chip with a 10x max cashout into a free chip with a 500x max cashout!
As long as the money is left in the casino and not removed I can see how it can be still considered as proceeds from the free chip and as such still tied to the terms and conditions of that bonus.
Can't have your cake and eat it too!
The casino was nice enough to give a free chip for you to try and win with so what is the problem in waiting the few days to withdraw and re-deposit the funds?

I swear sometimes the posts read that people seem to think that the casino should just pay up no matter what the rules are but on the other hand they should be shot down and chastised for the slightest misunderstanding!
The casinos provide a service and we should adhere to the terms of that service.

Just my 2cents

Cheers
Gremmy

Thanks Gremmy, and at many casinos you would be right.

However, at some casinos like BP and other Rivals, if you withdraw (like you did with the $330) the excess is removed ($30 in this case) and you can reverse it and it will be considered a fresh deposit i.e. you can take another bonus with it or just play it or whatever.

If you take a deposit bonus with a max cashout in a rival casino and make the playthrough, you can withdraw (at that point the excess is removed) and then reverse it and take another bonus or just play.

The problem here is that the OP couldn't withdraw to trigger the removal of excess winnings and wagering requirements, so customer service or whoever did it manually. Nicolas is saying if the software had done exactly the same thing automatically it would have been fine, but because it was done manually, which negated the need to have it done automatically, it's still a 'free chip' with a max cashout. It's just plain stupid, considering in all other instances it would have been considered a 'fresh deposit' via reversal.

The casino made the mistake, and the player pays. Not good enough.

 

[labeled]

I said I was done here but I do have to point out that not only have I sent in my documents and had them approved once, Nicolas, I've had them approved twice - the first time before any of this BS went down and I was just trying to get my QT deposit to go through. Curious that you'd state I didn't send my documents in. The only thing I haven't done is answer a phone call from a spoofed phone number. In what world that makes ME suspect is freaking beyond me.

I'd also like to make it clear again that I won't be calling, I won't be looking at your casino again, nothing. I can't be more blunt than I've already been - I do not trust this casino to have ANY more information about me than you already do, and that certainly includes my banking information which would normally be "buffered" by QT.

ETA: Any other vBulletin board I've been on lets the sender know when the intended receiver's inbox is full, and I received no such notification.

 

[NicolasJohnson]

I said I was done here but I do have to point out that not only have I sent in my documents and had them approved once, Nicolas, I've had them approved twice - the first time before any of this BS went down and I was just trying to get my QT deposit to go through. Curious that you'd state I didn't send my documents in. The only thing I haven't done is answer a phone call from a spoofed phone number. In what world that makes ME suspect is freaking beyond me.

I'd also like to make it clear again that I won't be calling, I won't be looking at your casino again, nothing. I can't be more blunt than I've already been - I do not trust this casino to have ANY more information about me than you already do, and that certainly includes my banking information which would normally be "buffered" by QT.

ETA: Any other vBulletin board I've been on lets the sender know when the intended receiver's inbox is full, and I received no such notification.

I didn't say you didn't have docs. And we aren't asking for information. We are asking you to pick up the phone to verify your identity. Nothing new. Just verify information we currently have on you.

We'll call, no cost to you. And at any time of your convenience. The money will be sent immediately after. We have the money waiting since Monday. I'm sorry about your inconvenience.

I am not lying about my in box at CM. It would be a really silly thing of me to do, and quite low may I add.

Regarding QT, before you sing it's praises, know that we have it down for a reason. Check other threads and you will see we are on the ball in sending you cash. We have a QT account we could send it even if the system wasn't integrated (it still would be a manual job). But we like to treat our customers right, even if we get bashed for giving free cash.

The casino made the mistake, and the player pays. Not good enough.

Then you should be rallying out side of every Vegas casino demanding that any dealer mistakes never be reversed.

In any case, the player isn't paying anything. And we are going over the same points. I know you are arguing from the heart nifty, and I respect that, but I believe you are stretching it in the way that it would be a stretch to ask that a dealer's mistake not get reversed.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

 

[NicolasJohnson]

errm, sorry, read about the part of docs. I meant when CS brought the balance down to $75 the first time. Sorry, I'm tired. Over and out folks, I can feel it is time to hit the hay! I'll check the thread again tomorrow.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

 

[Nifty29]

Then you should be rallying out side of every Vegas casino demanding that any dealer mistakes never be reversed.

In any case, the player isn't paying anything. And we are going over the same points. I know you are arguing from the heart nifty, and I respect that, but I believe you are stretching it in the way that it would be a stretch to ask that a dealer's mistake not get reversed.

Oh please Nicolas.

The issue at hand has nothing to do with a 'dealer mistake' or anything even close to it. The casino didn't 'accidentally put $1000 in his account', and no cards were 'accidentally dealt'. Who's stretching now?

Bottom line is that a player continued to play after the max cashout rule had been applied and the promotion completed, and you confiscated his winnings. You are entitled to do it once, but not twice.

It is something I would expect from Virtual etc.

 

[NicolasJohnson]

Oh please Nicolas.

The issue at hand has nothing to do with a 'dealer mistake' or anything even close to it. The casino didn't 'accidentally put $1000 in his account', and no cards were 'accidentally dealt'. Who's stretching now?

Bottom line is that a player continued to play after the max cashout rule had been applied and the promotion completed, and you confiscated his winnings. You are entitled to do it once, but not twice.

It is something I would expect from Virtual etc.

The player didn't reverse. And we didn't confiscate winnings, not once! The player played a free chip, won and is getting paid the maximum cashout. There was a misunderstanding where the player assumed his free chip money had no maximum cashout even though a cashout had not been complete. This was not the case.

You can angle it all you like, but you are asking we pay for a player's assumption. We followed our rules and are paying a player that didn't send us one penny. The comparison to a casino that would steal 6-7 digit figures from depositing players is absurd and illustrates the extremeness of your views.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

 

[Nifty29]

The player didn't reverse. And we didn't confiscate winnings, not once! The player played a free chip, won and is getting paid the maximum cashout. There was a misunderstanding where the player assumed his free chip money had no maximum cashout even though a cashout had not been complete. This was not the case.

You can angle it all you like, but you are asking we pay for a player's assumption. We followed our rules and are paying a player that didn't send us one penny. The comparison to a casino that would steal 6-7 digit figures from depositing players is absurd and illustrates the extremeness of your views.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

The player COULDN'T reverse because he couldn't CASHOUT!!

It's the reason you MANUALLY removed his first lot of access winnings so you could pay him some other way I.e. not via the cashier.

FYI the only one who seems to think my view is extreme is you....and I can give you 1,000 reasons why.

Anyway, I've asked Bryan too take a look and I will respect his assessment, and I will take responsibility I.e not anyone else if I am mistaken. I'm not commenting any more until then.

 

[Repro]

As i mentioned before i believe a casino has been removed from the accredited list (maybe even rogued) for exactly this.

Nicholas, normally i agree with your posts and i think you provide good service, but i really think you missed the ball here.

If you remove excess winnings on a free chip because of a max cashout the bonusrules are voided. This is the vision - from what i've seen recently - from the Meister himself. To put this on a stupid technicallity that he had to cashout first (which he couldn't) is just BS, because the chat with CS gave him enough reason to assume otherwise.

I think it's wise to just pay the player, or at least contact Max or the Meister about this for their vision. Also i would remove this vague "rule" from the (bonus-)T&C's, because it just makes no sence at all. If you don't want people to win on a free chip than just don't give it away. Don't use a FU-clause to remove winnings after a bonus has been completed and a player already had to make a 100000x playthrough to make to WR in the first place.

 

[Nifty29]

Dbl post oops

 

[Jasminebed]

Maxd start a thread quite a bit ago, about the max cashout on a free chip. I probably should have responded then.

Different casinos have different requirements for how free chips are handled. And I don't think that's a terrible thing. I remember almost begging a Rival casino here to let me reverse when I only had part of my ID requirements finished because they wanted a photo of me with my ID.

Well, Skyvegas would have let me reversed, but I could not have cashed out any more than the free chip. I talked to support, they were more than happy to help me.

I had quite a few free chips from Bet Phoenix when it was RTG. I had a cashout from the signup bonus, and it was handled well. I lost all my subsequent deposits, which is always something I've been prepared to do when gambling.

I had a number of dealings with support as well as Nicolas, and I'm not unhappy with the service I received.

Bet Phoenix waived your depositing criteria for the free chip. Labeled, you failed to verify you could play more. And you were smart enough to reain your original max cashout.

I like the Rival games, and if BetPhoenix could have me as a customer still, I'd probably still be losing gracefully.

When the RTG version of BetPhoenix launched, they definitely had a few hiccups.

 

[Jasminebed]

Add this to reasons to not post while drinking.... at least for me I get too wordy.

The OP failed to clarify his status with support. If we had a big long list on how he failed to contact support, I might feel differently.

Mostly knew as long as he didn't lose it all, he had nothing to lose.

Can't say I blame you labeled, and you were happy enough when you won to deposit.

And there have been casinos I've played on at on free chips, AFTER VERIFYING I could play on. Smart move on their part for the largest part.

When casinos offer ND signup bonuses, or even return bonuses, they need to factor their losses in a certain way.

Not all casinos see it the same way. I think the customer needs to ask if they are unsure how they are handled at any given casino.

I appreciate free chips, and I'd hate to see them end. BetPhoenix is now Rival, and I'm still a little miffed they didn't send me a "sorry to lose you" email.

 

[jod5413]

I never said we were perfect. Our process caused an issue. No doubt about it. I apologized profusely for the issue. We also changed our process so the issue doesn't come up again.

Just like a land based casino will admit to an error in a blackjack game, and even apologize profusely for the issue, yet you won't get to benefit monetarily from that error.

B&M casinos offer so many perks and in spite of what you say, Nicolas, if there had been a dealer error the casino would, in fact, offer bonuses to offset the mistake.

I want to say one more thing and then I'm out of here. Nicolas, I am sorry you could not see how to make this situation right. $200 is pocket change compared to losing a new player that starts out with a $1000 deposit. With all this negative posting going on here and since this site is read by tons of players, do you not regret making this into a big issue? I can guarantee that this has cost you players. GUARANTEED!!! To add to the ridiculous situation, you are demanding a phone call when he gave your casino acceptable docs already?????


Boils down to free money. You get $50-100 no deposit money which can you cash out on if you win.

This is a losing proposition for a casino. We do it to attract players. So we must strictly limit how much you can cash out on these free, no deposit money bonuses.

In this case it is $75. We clearly state this. Once you receive the $75, it is yours to re-deposit as you see fit. You can re-deposit it as cash and win all you like. But this player didn't have a cash out.

And it isn't like the player couldn't make a cash out at all. We are glad to send the player the funds via alternative means.

Nothing to do with RTP, if our RTP was super high on free chips, we couldn't offer them. RTP for free chips is the same as for regular play. You can believe otherwise just as some people believe we didn't land on the moon. Doesn't make it real though. Of course, you might perceive it that way, and your perception and opinions are completely valid. Just trying to differentiate fact from perception. The old co relation doesn't equal causation thing, just like if I go to the beach and get sick I might perceive that going to the beach makes people sick, but that doesn't make it correct.

If you don't cash out, the free chip stays a free chip. That is just the way it works.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

Good luck with this, Labeled.

 

[NicolasJohnson]

B&M casinos offer so many perks and in spite of what you say, Nicolas, if there had been a dealer error the casino would, in fact, offer bonuses to offset the mistake.

We did offer a bonus to try and ensure player satisfaction. But we didn't give the player $1,000 for an incorrect assumption.

And I've been to Vegas. I was over paid at a blackjack table. I pointed the mistake out. The pit boss took away the money that didn't belong to me. He thanked me and that was it. Didn't get to keep the mistaken money, didn't get bonuses, nada. I honestly didn't expect more.

I want to say one more thing and then I'm out of here. Nicolas, I am sorry you could not see how to make this situation right. $200 is pocket change

$200? Where did this number come from?

compared to losing a new player that starts out with a $1000 deposit.

$1,000 deposit? What are you talking about? The player hasn't deposited. The $1,000 is from a free chip that wasn't reversed or re-deposited.

With all this negative posting going on here and since this site is read by tons of players, do you not regret making this into a big issue?

The only thing I regret is not having had more optimal procedures to start with so as to avoid every possible confusion. All the decisions taken from then on have been the right ones as far as I'm concerned.

Suggesting that we should pay every player demand regardless of rules to avoid negative publicity sounds a little like... hush money?

Not that the original player has suggested this. But you Jod have suggested this to me many times (as well as other posters) It won't happen. We will treat players fairly and provide open and clear communication. We won't go paying hush money. We have nothing to hide and no reason to fall for this type of mentality. If some players are turned off by a place that doesn't pay hush money, then I'm not too concerned.

Again this whole part of the hush money has nothing to do with the OP. The OP has never asked for hush money and I am in no way accusing the OP of doing so. I'm answering the other posters in this thread like Jod on that type of 'just pay the player to avoid these threads' comments.

I can guarantee that this has cost you players. GUARANTEED!!! To add to the ridiculous situation, you are demanding a phone call when he gave your casino acceptable docs already?????

Good luck with this, Labeled. [/COLOR]

We are requesting a phone verification. This is hardly 'ridiculous' as you put it. It will take a couple of minutes at most and we will call at any time of the player's convenience. We must fight fraud, and I don't see the big deal in this step. It is also something that our terms and conditions allow for.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

 

[LHofsdal]

Phone Verification....

I am not sure there is need for it now, it is clear the OP isn't coming back to BP.

Some very good points were made here, but honestly, it is a damn shame this happened. I have to agree with Nifty, it doesn't matter if he hit the cashout button or not. The bonus and the winnings from the bonus were removed. When the cashier removed both the excess winning and the free chip, they should have told the OP to withdraw the 75 USD and reverse it. From everything I read, they did not tell him that. Why would he not think his money was free and clear?

Could a compromise be reached here? Maybe splitting it down the middle. If it was a mistake on the OP parts, it was an honest mistake, but how could he know he was making that mistake, no one told him until he tried to cashout.

Is it written in the T&C anywhere where you have to physically hit the cashout button and reverse it to make this money free and clear? Most people would think once the winnings and the chip were removed it would make it free and clear. Why wouldn't we? Nifty is right, you will get the same end result. The 75 USD would still be there.

If there are going to have "crazy" terms and conditions attached to anything, it is in the casino's best interest to make sure the CSR's are up to speed on it. They are one of the few ways players can get intouch with the casino.

I am kind of curious to see what Bryan and Max thinks about this.

Hope this gets worked out for you Labeled, sorry you are going through it.

All the best,
LH

 

[NicolasJohnson]

I think our Terms are quite clear:

From the promotion:

The maximum you may withdraw is $75

From Our site:

6.n. It is the player's sole responsibility to understand any promotional terms and conditions associated with a balance. The casino will make every possible effort to ensure the player understands any associated restrictions, but it is ultimately the player's responsibility to understand any related Terms and Conditions of play.

15.e. The player may reverse any pending cash out. Such reversals shall be treated as a deposit where valid and applicable bonuses may be used.

To dispel what was mentioned:
No reversal happened. No vague rules were applied. No deposit happened. No run around happened.

A player took a $50 free chip with $75 max cashout, and the player will get the $75 max cashout. All the player has to do is complete the one security requirement left; a 3 minute phone verification. On our dime. No cost to the player. And at any time the player chooses.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

 

[Nifty29]

"HUSH MONEY"????

I deposited $50 at an (honest) online casino last night, had a win, and received my hush money in moneybookers this morning. Great service eh?

Give me strength.

 

[NicolasJohnson]

"HUSH MONEY"????

I deposited $50 at an (honest) online casino last night, had a win, and received my hush money in moneybookers this morning. Great service eh?

Give me strength.

This a straw man argument mixed with slander.

Can you tell me one single occasion where we haven't paid a player when they won and followed the rules?

A single one?

I'd hope you'd have a reason for implying we aren't honest. And if to you a 'dishonest' place is one that enforces T&Cs, you are going to have a hard time finding a casino that is 'honest' by your definition. Unless of course by honest you mean a place that will pay you regardless of T&Cs just to hush you up. If that is the case, then you are equating honesty with weak companies that allow themselves be strong armed.

Your sarcasm and nasty innuendos have little truth to them and almost no relevance to the topic. If you want to do the industry a favor, it would be best to not confuse honest places with dishonest ones. Somebody reading this might not have the time to read all the replies and might believe you that we are 'worse than Virtual'.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manage

 

[Nifty29]

This a straw man argument mixed with slander.

Can you please point to the "slander"? I would think it would be difficult considering I've only written things and not said them. If you are going to accuse me of something at least you could try to understand it.

Can you tell me one single occasion where we haven't paid a player when they won and followed the rules?

A single one?

Yes. The situation with the OP. I didn't refer to any other situation at any point so your point is irrelevant.

I'd hope you'd have a reason for implying we aren't honest. And if to you a 'dishonest' place is one that enforces T&Cs, you are going to have a hard time finding a casino that is 'honest' by your definition. Unless of course by honest you mean a place that will pay you regardless of T&Cs just to hush you up. If that is the case, then you are equating honesty with weak companies that allow themselves be strong armed.

Your terms state you can remove the excess winnings, leaving the maximum cashable amount upon withdrawal. The OP did withdraw in every sense of the word except for the actual physical action of clicking' withdraw' and then 'reverse'. The net result is exactly the same as having it done manually.

The problem is you removed excess winnings TWICE, and that is theft IMO.


Your sarcasm and nasty innuendos have little truth to them and almost no relevance to the topic. If you want to do the industry a favor, it would be best to not confuse honest places with dishonest ones. Somebody reading this might not have the time to read all the replies and might believe you that we are 'worse than Virtual'.

Here we go again. Where did I say you were 'worse then virtual'? I did say this action reminds of something virtual would do, but that is a far cry from the sweeping statement you just made.

Who cares what I say Nicolas? I'm just expressing my opinion. Are you seriously suggesting that a whole lot of players who read this thread are just going to ignore all posts except mine and just blindly follow my lead? Geez you give me way too much credit.

I dare say anyone who reads this thread and looks at the facts can make up their own mind, and from the responses so far I would say that your 'interpretation' of the matter has pretty much one supporter - you. In fact, it's been a while since Ive seen so many people agree with me given my propensity to speak my mind plainly, so that should tell you something.

You really need to stop spruiking this idea that anyone is trying to 'bully' you into paying the OP. We are just expressing our opinions and none of us pretend we have any such influence so let it rest.



Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manage

It's really getting to the point where we're flogging a dead horse.

Let's just agree to disagree Nicolas as I don't have a problem personally with you and I don't want this to be twisted in such a way that it looks like I do.

 

[FreeDomme]

It's really getting to the point where we're flogging a dead horse.

Let's just agree to disagree Nicolas as I don't have a problem personally with you and I don't want this to be twisted in such a way that it looks like I do.

I'm sorry, it shouldn't just be agree to disagree. You have accused an honest casino of foul play. So you have years on here and I have weeks. I could accuse you of foul play looking back at many of your posts.
The casino is fully within their terms and conditions. There was no foul play. I am amazed that there has only been one poster other than myself and the casino who has ventured to debate your position. Simply amazed. Maybe I am in the wrong place, but where else is there to turn? I applaud BetPhoenix for standing their ground, and perhaps they would have quietly been more generous without this ridiculous exercise.

 

[Nifty29]

I'm sorry, it shouldn't just be agree to disagree. You have accused an honest casino of foul play. So you have years on here and I have weeks. I could accuse you of foul play looking back at many of your posts.
The casino is fully within their terms and conditions. There was no foul play. I am amazed that there has only been one poster other than myself and the casino who has ventured to debate your position. Simply amazed. Maybe I am in the wrong place, but where else is there to turn? I applaud BetPhoenix for standing their ground, and perhaps they would have quietly been more generous without this ridiculous exercise.

LOL So now its my fault that the OP isn't getting paid more??

Man, you must really be on another planet in the solar system.

I respect your opinion on the actual issue, but to accuse ME of foul play I.e. dishonesty is ridiculous.....I am honest to a fault. I've also never taken anyone's money off them for no reason. You obviously have an issue with me personally, about which I don't give a toss, but don't make this issue about personalities - a player is $1k worse off through no fault of their own.

Maybe to describe BPs action as theft was harsh, but I'm having trouble describing it as anything else.

 

[SlotsLover]

FWIW, the betphoenix team always paid me in reasonable manner and I consider them to be a very honest casino. I consider them fair and trustworthy and enjoy playing there very much.

 

[FreeDomme]

LOL So now its my fault that the OP isn't getting paid more??

Man, you must really be on another planet in the solar system.

I respect your opinion on the actual issue, but to accuse ME of foul play I.e. dishonesty is ridiculous.....I am honest to a fault. I've also never taken anyone's money off them for no reason. You obviously have an issue with me personally, about which I don't give a toss, but don't make this issue about personalities - a player is $1k worse off through no fault of their own.

Maybe to describe BPs action as theft was harsh, but I'm having trouble describing it as anything else.

Fair enough we see this issue and the last (Party) very differently. I won't defend my statement of foul-play (which was meant as unfair, as in sport, not dishonest) because it is about style and we don't need to visit that distraction here.

When a business is forced to defend itself against accusations of fraud or theft in the public light how can they 'give a little extra' without looking weak or guilty?

I'm very satisfied with Bet Phoenix's integrity, and I admire your fervor. But you wouldn't stand by and watch another accuse an honest casino unfairly, nor will I. You and I can agree to disagree but neither of us have accused the other of theft. It was out of bounds.

No need to go back and forth on this, and the casino has presented their argument fairly. So I've said my piece and will leave it to history to decide what is fair and right here.

 

[rainmaker]

First, let me just say that it is unfair to criticize their "phone verification". I see this as a good practice. It shows us that they take their responsibility seriously (money laundry etc). More casinos should have had this as an standard procedure.

I really can not see that the casino has done anything wrong in this case.

The OP had not done any qualifying withdrawals at the moment where his balance was reduced to $75. But he had indicated to CS that he wanted to do a withdrawal. They manually reduced his balance ( the excess winnings) probably because he wanted to withdraw. They made it "ready" for withdrawal.

This does not mean that the $75 is "his cash". I really can not understand why you guys are coming to this conclusion.

The Op had to do a deposit in order to qualify for withdrawal. Because of QT problems, he was not able to deposit at the moment. But CS told him to wait and try again in 24H. He had also not verified his account yet.

Despite this, the OP played with the $75. The OP did know or should have known that this amount still should be regarded as a "bonus".

This player must not be compared to a player who has "reversed" his withdrawal. Simply because this player never has done a qualified withdrawal, he re-used his $75 before he had done this necessary withdrawal.

This player has never done a singe deposit into this casino. He received a ND bonus. He won. And it must be considered as "highly unusual" if the casino would allow him to withdraw $1000 based on this bonus and the fact that he never has done a single qualifying deposit or withdrawal. Nor verified his account.

This is really not a case in my opinion.

 

[FreeDomme]

Thank you for the succinct argument Rainmaker. You summed it up and clarified it well in my opinion.

To further your point on account verifications - One of the B Rivals, BetCave or Box24, I don't recall, has a geo locator on their no download casino and if you refuse to verify your location, they refuse to serve you games. I noticed this after black friday but it may have been there all along and a security feature of Google Chrome which I recently switched to.

I apologize for the derail, but it is intrinsic to this issue. The player has not even verified yet.

 

[anniemac]

I don't have any love lost with Bet Phoenix, however, in this instance I am going to have to side with them.

The RTG's I play at, CW, Lucky Club and their offspring, all have the same rule. I know because I have asked. You can withdraw a free chip max cashout and even if you reverse it, you still have the same cashout amount.

I think the problem with this scenerio is the fact that some Rivals let you reverse and claim bonuses or whatever after the original chip or bonus is cleared. Evidently BetPhoenix does not have this option available to a player. Even though the CS manually cleared the overage, the chip still had a max cashout attached until it was actually cashed out. Terms stated you get $XX free chip with $XX max cashout period. And that's all you can get. I don't like it any better than anyone else but that's the terms.

As far as player verification, that's between player and casino. I have signed up at some casinos and had them tell me they needed to call me for verification. So, I call them and then have them call me back. If I don't know the caller or the number is wanky, I don't answer the phone either.

 

[jod5413]

We did offer a bonus to try and ensure player satisfaction. But we didn't give the player $1,000 for an incorrect assumption.

And I've been to Vegas. I was over paid at a blackjack table. I pointed the mistake out. The pit boss took away the money that didn't belong to me. He thanked me and that was it. Didn't get to keep the mistaken money, didn't get bonuses, nada. I honestly didn't expect more.



$200? Where did this number come from?



$1,000 deposit? What are you talking about? The player hasn't deposited. The $1,000 is from a free chip that wasn't reversed or re-deposited.



The only thing I regret is not having had more optimal procedures to start with so as to avoid every possible confusion. All the decisions taken from then on have been the right ones as far as I'm concerned.

Suggesting that we should pay every player demand regardless of rules to avoid negative publicity sounds a little like... hush money?

Not that the original player has suggested this. But you Jod have suggested this to me many times (as well as other posters) It won't happen. We will treat players fairly and provide open and clear communication. We won't go paying hush money. We have nothing to hide and no reason to fall for this type of mentality. If some players are turned off by a place that doesn't pay hush money, then I'm not too concerned.

Again this whole part of the hush money has nothing to do with the OP. The OP has never asked for hush money and I am in no way accusing the OP of doing so. I'm answering the other posters in this thread like Jod on that type of 'just pay the player to avoid these threads' comments.



We are requesting a phone verification. This is hardly 'ridiculous' as you put it. It will take a couple of minutes at most and we will call at any time of the player's convenience. We must fight fraud, and I don't see the big deal in this step. It is also something that our terms and conditions allow for.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

I am sorry, Nicolas. I got my money amounts confused with another issue somewhere. I meant not paying out $1000 or whatever Labeled got up to. As far as the rest of it, I still think this whole mess could have been taken care of quietly because it IS such an abnormal situation for a player to have.

I would love having you work for me, you are calm and do not get ruffled easily, which is a Damn good trait to have here or at any other customer relations job!

I hope that this whole situation can come to an amicable understanding.

 

[Nifty29]

I don't have any love lost with Bet Phoenix, however, in this instance I am going to have to side with them.

The RTG's I play at, CW, Lucky Club and their offspring, all have the same rule. I know because I have asked. You can withdraw a free chip max cashout and even if you reverse it, you still have the same cashout amount.

I think the problem with this scenerio is the fact that some Rivals let you reverse and claim bonuses or whatever after the original chip or bonus is cleared. Evidently BetPhoenix does not have this option available to a player. Even though the CS manually cleared the overage, the chip still had a max cashout attached until it was actually cashed out. Terms stated you get $XX free chip with $XX max cashout period. And that's all you can get. I don't like it any better than anyone else but that's the terms.

As far as player verification, that's between player and casino. I have signed up at some casinos and had them tell me they needed to call me for verification. So, I call them and then have them call me back. If I don't know the caller or the number is wanky, I don't answer the phone either.

Hey Annie

Just FYI....BP actually does allow you to take another bonus etc after the excess winnings and WR is cleared, which is the main problem here. The OP had their excess and coupon removed manually because they couldnt cash out via the cashier, which is why the player quite reasonably surmised that the remainder was 'his'.

 

[rainmaker]

Hey Annie

Just FYI....BP actually does allow you to take another bonus etc after the excess winnings and WR is cleared, which is the main problem here. The OP had their excess and coupon removed manually because they couldnt cash out via the cashier, which is why the player quite reasonably surmised that the remainder was 'his'.

I must disagree Nifty (probably the first time )

OP said this in his first post :

"(Of course I wasn't going to deposit while the 1227 was still in there - didn't want my money swept away with it when the max cashout was applied.)"

So he had no intention to deposit until the excess was removed anyway (maybe he even asked CS to remove it?). And the casino did remove his excess winnings. But he did not have patience to try again to deposit in 24H (despite what the casino told him), so he started to play again.

It is not correct that "BP actually does allow you to take another bonus etc after the excess winnings and WR is cleared".

But they allow you to take another bonus after you have completed the withdrawal from the ND-bonus. In order to complete the withdrawal, the player first needs to 1. Do a deposit and 2. Verify the account. OP did neither.

The player has never done a single deposit, withdrawal or reversed withdrawal, nor verified his account. And he expect to be paid $1000 from a ND bonus. Come on guys


.

 

[Nifty29]

I must disagree Nifty (probably the first time )

OP said this in his first post :

"(Of course I wasn't going to deposit while the 1227 was still in there - didn't want my money swept away with it when the max cashout was applied.)"

So he had no intention to deposit until the excess was removed anyway (maybe he even asked CS to remove it?). And the casino did remove his excess winnings. But he did not have patience to try again to deposit in 24H (despite what the casino told him), so he started to play again.

It is not correct that "BP actually does allow you to take another bonus etc after the excess winnings and WR is cleared".

But they allow you to take another bonus after you have completed the withdrawal from the ND-bonus. In order to complete the withdrawal, the player first needs to 1. Do a deposit and 2. Verify the account. OP did neither.

The player has never done a single deposit, withdrawal or reversed withdrawal, nor verified his account. And he expect to be paid $1000 from a ND bonus. Come on guys


.

That' s ok rainmaker you and I can disagree.

You @#%!&*!!!

 

[rainmaker]

That' s ok rainmaker you and I can disagree.

You @#%!&*!!!

One more outburst like that, and I will go and tell the moderators

 

[mellakka]

I do not have strong opinion about this case and i don't play in betphoenix but i would like to give thanks for Nicholas for response on this forum about issues with Bp. I Think many other Rep have disappeared already with he's pants. thanks.