Ask me anything (about slots)!

[trancemonkey]

I 'll post question about normal/quickspin, I guess I know the answer, but stilll, please don't mind.

Started today my favourite Preety Kitty. Starting balance 280. Normal spins. In 1340 spins I had 5 bonuses (13x, 18x, 23x, 6x, 11x) and one significant base game hit (40x). Everything else was pure misery. At 20 (yes, 260 gone with the wind) balance I decided to go to the very end, but with quickspin mode. 10 spins later I got bonus (dear Microgaming, after waiting for more than 500 spins). Bonus is always in normal spin mode and after 5 spins I got 810x spin (full screen persian).

Now, would that bonus/win came if I had continued with normal spin?

The answer to this is no, you probably wouldn't have...
This is because the point at which you press the start button has a direct impact on the RNG results, as the RNG is constantly spitting out random numbers (even when it isn't being used). If you had pressed the start button fractions of a second earlier, or later, you would have got different random numbers and not got the feature.

That said, there is no difference between fast / normal play in terms of maths of course

 

[trancemonkey]

This game I have lost literally thousands at £4 spins . I have several of the characters upgraded (occasionally happens there is lightning and one of the characters gets upgraded by one) but whenever I get the bonus I always get the sh*tty electrocutee at level 2 . Am I playing at enhanced rtp right now ? Or is rtp the same and the "enhanced" characters are just balanced out by me getting the bonus less often and then getting the only bad character more frequently ?

What do you think of these games where a lot of the rtp can be left in the game without ever being realised , especially by casual players who might collect one or 2 tokens /upgrades and then never come back ? seems like it preys on two things 1) ignorance of the game and it's features so a lot of people might get some of the way to a feature and never actually get it and 2) player retention because if you want a decent rtp you have no choice but to play the game for as long as it takes to get the accumulated feature and of course 3) You might run out of money before you get there which must be against some gambling regulation rules since being "halfway" to a bonus that you need to collect tokens for is an enticement for you to deposit more and continue playing beyond your means

There's lots of games like this . Tower Quest . Double Dragons . Three Musketeers (Red Tiger gaming) . Vikings Go Beserk etc etc

Ahh Lightning Squad - this was done while i was at Inspired, although by another producer. However, i do know this - the chance of getting each feature has nothing to do with the level the feature is at... You have the same chance every time you trigger the bonus of getting any one of the four features (i can't remember if the chance is 25% for each one - i don't think it is, as some average more than others IIRC).

With regards to your second question about binding games - this is always an interesting subject. Games with binding features nearly always tend to do better than those without (assuming of course the game is still good).. As a producer, i want people to play my game - and if i put a binding feature on a game, that means you might stick to it. Of course, what you don't want is a binding feature that causes a LOT of RTP to sit there for a very long time - but of course, when you get the feature at Level 11 or Level 9, you are almost certain to get a good (100x +) win - although of course nothing is guaranteed.

Your point about "running out of money" when you're halfway to collecting something - well, the same argument could be said for if you run out of money before you ever got a bonus - look at Bonanza... If i go 400 games without a feature and run out of money, would you argue that that should be illegal too? No of course not - so the same argument goes for binding features such as lightning squad.

 

[gambyx7]

The answer to this is no, you probably wouldn't have...
This is because the point at which you press the start button has a direct impact on the RNG results, as the RNG is constantly spitting out random numbers (even when it isn't being used). If you had pressed the start button fractions of a second earlier, or later, you would have got different random numbers and not got the feature.

That said, there is no difference between fast / normal play in terms of maths of course

Well, you did surprise me with this answer. I thuoght the answer will be yes. And I didn't think that RNG works all the time, even when start button is not pressed.

 

[trancemonkey]

Well, you did surprise me with this answer. I thuoght the answer will be yes. And I didn't think that RNG works all the time, even when start button is not pressed.

It has to to make sure the numbers are truly random... The intervals at which the random numbers are chosen must also be random (i.e once every frame on a computer game as not every frame will take exactly the same amount of time to render, or some other imperfect timing).

PRNGs are very complex things done properly... When people don't do them properly you end up with people being able to predict outcomes (such as the Russian Alex did with Aristocrat machines a few years back)

 

[gambyx7]

It has to to make sure the numbers are truly random... The intervals at which the random numbers are chosen must also be random (i.e once every frame on a computer game as not every frame will take exactly the same amount of time to render, or some other imperfect timing).

PRNGs are very complex things done properly... When people don't do them properly you end up with people being able to predict outcomes (such as the Russian Alex did with Aristocrat machines a few years back)

Hm..maybe is then good to mix normal spin/quick spin...uxually at web client I can't do quickspin, on mobile and desktop I can. And I mostly do.

However, it is quite obvious that RNG does produce cold/hot streaks. Yesterday I had hard time and suddenly like someone turned switch on, 20-30x all over...(coincidentally, slot jackpot temperature dropped then from 999 to 289 !!!). Similar thing happend to Jurassic Park and Dragonz slot few times...

 

[trancemonkey]

Hm..maybe is then good to mix normal spin/quick spin...uxually at web client I can't do quickspin, on mobile and desktop I can. And I mostly do.

However, it is quite obvious that RNG does produce cold/hot streaks. Yesterday I had hard time and suddenly like someone turned switch on, 20-30x all over...(coincidentally, slot jackpot temperature dropped then from 999 to 289 !!!). Similar thing happend to Jurassic Park and Dragonz slot few times...

Of course it does... Randomly
I'm currently playing a new game of mine and it's on a really cold run... But that's just the nature of random slots

 

[SlotGrinder]

Ahh Lightning Squad - this was done while i was at Inspired, although by another producer. However, i do know this - the chance of getting each feature has nothing to do with the level the feature is at... You have the same chance every time you trigger the bonus of getting any one of the four features (i can't remember if the chance is 25% for each one - i don't think it is, as some average more than others IIRC).

With regards to your second question about binding games - this is always an interesting subject. Games with binding features nearly always tend to do better than those without (assuming of course the game is still good).. As a producer, i want people to play my game - and if i put a binding feature on a game, that means you might stick to it. Of course, what you don't want is a binding feature that causes a LOT of RTP to sit there for a very long time - but of course, when you get the feature at Level 11 or Level 9, you are almost certain to get a good (100x +) win - although of course nothing is guaranteed.

Your point about "running out of money" when you're halfway to collecting something - well, the same argument could be said for if you run out of money before you ever got a bonus - look at Bonanza... If i go 400 games without a feature and run out of money, would you argue that that should be illegal too? No of course not - so the same argument goes for binding features such as lightning squad.

Well it's a bit different because on each spin of Bonanza you have the same chance of triggering the bonus so the rtp for each spin is the same . But in some games like where you have to collect things to fill a meter which gives you a bonus then it is impossible to get that particular bonus on any spin where the meter isn't almost full . So the rtp varies like when the meter is low the rtp will be low and when the meter is nearly full the rtp for each spin will be very high . This is what I mean about it being dangerous for problem gamblers who "have" to deposit more than they should because they know the meter "should" fill quite soon ,, like if they have it 3/4 full obv they won't want to just leave the game and accept their losses . And then of course sometimes you won't get the scatter or w/e you need to fill the meter for ages ...
Yes I know that a lot of people feel that normal bonuses are "due" but of course normal bonuses have the same likelihood of hitting on any spin so just because you haven't had a bonus for 200 spins doesn't actually mean it's "due" - it's just gambler's fallacy .

Particularly the games where you lose the progress if you change betsize . Like the example I showed you of lightning Squad . At the time I was doing well with my gambling bankroll so was fine with £4 spins but now I have all those characters upgraded but really can't afford to play 100s of spins at £4 trying to trigger one of the good bonuses So I either play above my sensible limits or give up on the progress I have made in the game . You could say that I should have planned for this but tbh it's not easy on a new game . How are you supposed to know how often the upgrades will come and how important they are and how often you will actually trigger a bonus with the upgraded character ? Feel like these sort of games should come with some sort of warnings and clear explanations . Generally slots are about clicking a button and hoping to win so it's not really likely that most people will closely read all the instructions/paytable etc

 

[SlotGrinder]

Another unrelated question..

What would you say are the most innovative and influential slots produced in say the last 10 years ?

Like Book of Ra has spawned a thousand copies etc

Starburst unfortunately also has a fair few clones

 

[trancemonkey]

Well it's a bit different because on each spin of Bonanza you have the same chance of triggering the bonus so the rtp for each spin is the same . But in some games like where you have to collect things to fill a meter which gives you a bonus then it is impossible to get that particular bonus on any spin where the meter isn't almost full . So the rtp varies like when the meter is low the rtp will be low and when the meter is nearly full the rtp for each spin will be very high . This is what I mean about it being dangerous for problem gamblers who "have" to deposit more than they should because they know the meter "should" fill quite soon ,, like if they have it 3/4 full obv they won't want to just leave the game and accept their losses . And then of course sometimes you won't get the scatter or w/e you need to fill the meter for ages ...
Yes I know that a lot of people feel that normal bonuses are "due" but of course normal bonuses have the same likelihood of hitting on any spin so just because you haven't had a bonus for 200 spins doesn't actually mean it's "due" - it's just gambler's fallacy .

Particularly the games where you lose the progress if you change betsize . Like the example I showed you of lightning Squad . At the time I was doing well with my gambling bankroll so was fine with £4 spins but now I have all those characters upgraded but really can't afford to play 100s of spins at £4 trying to trigger one of the good bonuses So I either play above my sensible limits or give up on the progress I have made in the game . You could say that I should have planned for this but tbh it's not easy on a new game . How are you supposed to know how often the upgrades will come and how important they are and how often you will actually trigger a bonus with the upgraded character ? Feel like these sort of games should come with some sort of warnings and clear explanations . Generally slots are about clicking a button and hoping to win so it's not really likely that most people will closely read all the instructions/paytable etc

I agree with the fact that all the spins on Bonanza are the same RTP, and on binding games every spin doesn't have the same RTP... but this is legal in every jurisdiction that allows binding features (which is most, but not all, in the world) - the think is as a designer that you don't want TOO much RTP held in binding features! If we do, that's really bad...

 

[videoslotheaven]

I have a few questions.

1. Why does most low volatility slots play far worse than high volatility slots? Its supposed to be less risk right?

But my experience is most low volatility games go 30-50 spins without wins often, and at that point there is no hope of recovery. Quickspin games are like this. I had close to 100 spins without a winning combination on one of their low variance games. It left me with a feeling its rigged. I seam so get far better playtime on high volatility games fore some reason.

2. Having an argument with support and VIP manager at an "accredited" casino after an insane cold run. (Avove 100 dead spins, and more weird happenings) They told me on two occations. "The casino has a global payout that is randomly distributed to any slot" what the hell does this mean? Its global parameters that decides what game pays or not? Then it is rigged basicly?

Same site after said shitty run they offer me a compensational bonus. And they even said wait and see your luck will turn now. Lo and behold i win severl thousand euros. How on earth could they know?

This is a reputable site and games from the biggest providers.

 

[trancemonkey]

Hey - I'll answer below in red

I have a few questions.

1. Why does most low volatility slots play far worse than high volatility slots? Its supposed to be less risk right?

But my experience is most low volatility games go 30-50 spins without wins often, and at that point there is no hope of recovery. Quickspin games are like this. I had close to 100 spins without a winning combination on one of their low variance games. It left me with a feeling its rigged. I seam so get far better playtime on high volatility games fore some reason.

Every game of any volatility can go on a dry run with dead spins - that's just the nature of random games. Of course, on a low volatility game they should happen less often, and for less spins, but but if the RNG just keeps returning reel positions that don't give you a win, there is little to be done other than change games or play through it. Also, how are you determining the volatility of the games? Is this based on knowledge, gut feeling, some other factor? I mean, we all know the popular high volatility games, but how are you determining the low ones?

2. Having an argument with support and VIP manager at an "accredited" casino after an insane cold run. (Avove 100 dead spins, and more weird happenings) They told me on two occations. "The casino has a global payout that is randomly distributed to any slot" what the hell does this mean? Its global parameters that decides what game pays or not? Then it is rigged basicly?

Same site after said shitty run they offer me a compensational bonus. And they even said wait and see your luck will turn now. Lo and behold i win severl thousand euros. How on earth could they know?

This is a reputable site and games from the biggest providers.

Comments like this are unhelpful, and show a lack of real knowledge from CS. There are many games that could theoretically go on a 100 dead spin run - although most of those would be low hit frequency, high volatility games. But the opposite can also be true - where for 100 spins it goes on a crazy run and your balance goes up and up and up... Going on a 100 dead spin run is proof the games are NOT rigged - if they were, why on earth would we ever make a game where it was purposefully that bad?

Thanks for the questions - keep them coming if you want more info, or clarification

 

[bogapasa]

Can it be possible that my rtp rate in some point of time be above 97% or more, playin online microgaming. And losing overal lot of money on small stakes..When i play games of low rtp game like BDBA 95,4%, can i get big win there , even if my current rtp is 95,9%, but i do play mostly games of best rtps 96,6- 97%

 

[interlog]

Can it be possible that my rtp rate in some point of time be above 97% or more, playin online microgaming. And losing overal lot of money on small stakes..When i play games of low rtp like BDBA 95,4%, can i get big win there , even if my current rtp is 95,9%, but i do play mostly games of best rtps 96,6- 97%

RTP is mostly irrelevant short term because you can hit big during any one spin, or lose over many.

Only when you play millions of spins on a slot, has the RTP relevance.

My suggestion to you is to play slots that you enjoy and be prepared to lose what you put in.

 

[trancemonkey]

Can it be possible that my rtp rate in some point of time be above 97% or more, playin online microgaming. And losing overal lot of money on small stakes..When i play games of low rtp game like BDBA 95,4%, can i get big win there , even if my current rtp is 95,9%, but i do play mostly games of best rtps 96,6- 97%

Interlog summed this up...

And yes, of course you can get a big win even if your RTP is 95.9% - the game has no knowledge of your current RTP, every spin has the same chance of every possible reel win. Doesn't matter if your €100 up or €100 down

 

[trancemonkey]

An article some of you might be interested in ... And the tin foil hatters amongst you will just ignore anyway

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[Spikie]

I have a maths question, I have noticed that NetEnt are advertising for slots matematics manager , and slot mathematician...

Regarding the maths manager position, the job description looks like a slot designer job, as a designer do you need the maths knowledge personally or can it be a more of a Project management job ? Can you give any info on what software companies use to develop the ideas and algos ?

Looking at BTG slots, if you as a designer woke up one day and went to your boss and said .. "'I have this great idea where we have maybe over a hundred thousand paylines and maybe an infinite bonus but it constantly changes" ,
A) would he think you were mad
B) say ok but do it in your own time as you might be mad but see how it goes
C) give you free reign and let you spend probably months and lots of money on a wacky idea?

I'm asking as BTG seem to have a very innovative game format , what looks like horrendously complicated maths behind it, so what chance would that kind of game have had to develop at one of the bigger companies ?

Is BTG run by maths geeks or just crazy people with a ton of money to throw at an idea that could have just crashed and burned ?

Just been playing Bonanza and can't get my head around how they calculated it all , so that's the reason the question...

 

[Mouche12]

An article some of you might be interested in ... And the tin foil hatters amongst you will just ignore anyway

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Interesting read, but it raises additional questions about the RNG, I just browsed the comments and these two stick out:

Major myth in this article: RNGs generate random numbers. There's no such thing as software that generates random numbers. There is only software that simulates randomness

and

The article is perpetuating a myth in itself by the RNG reference "“Today’s slot machines don’t work that way,” Olaf said. “They are based on RNGs or random number generators.”

They are now commonly called PRNGs (Psuedo Random Number Generators).
No computer is capable of true randomization, and if it were truly random, no casino would purchase such a machine because it could not produce a guaranteed or adjustable profit margin.
If a machine was truly random it would be impossible to adjust the "hold percentage" at all.
A truly random machine would have prevented Ronald Dale Harris, a former slot machine programmer, from using equations for computer Keno machines that allowed him to choose correctly a set of selected winning numbers based on the previous games already played.

Especially the last sentence seems worrying, but I must admit I have no knowledge whatsoever of higher maths.

Can you explain please?

 

[Tourettesguy]

Time to buzz the tower again... Trancemonky are you there?

First, I think we both can aggree that any win amont from a slot spin is decided before any reels stops and if bonus/free spins are triggered the total win amount is already decided at the time you hit the spin button...and I talk about all diffrent softwares, we have seen proof of this so I think that is pretty clear. Nothing to discuss but sure the winnings are still random and fair ofcoarse...

But I think its abit sad when you for ex hit a big multiplier or alots of free spins the reels outcome is more stingy...preventing bigger wins and so on..you know what I mean.

As a programmer you are...wouldn´t it be more fun and exciting if there are parts of the software that are totally disconnected from the calulations of winnings and payout...but maybe another part of the software that compenasting any win or loss for the casino AFTER the spin is finished...
Lets say you win a free spin or bonus with a big multipler and the slot reels stops at random and no knowing of any multiplier or so..I mean 100% random, nothing pre-set before the feature starts...and IF the player win big or huge the software and payout calculator will know about it after the feature is finished...and then AFTER that import that info in the software so it will compensate for that hug win. I dont see the problem in doin this except little bit more complicatet programming maybe? You understand what Im saying?
And when you are picking somthing in a bonus until you hit a bomb or end-symbol...we all know it doesnt matter how you pick, whats behind changes how you pick, it just mimic the real randomness of outcome and making sure the payout is fair. Why not let it be fixed symbols behind you picks?

And for ex this Jungle Spirit slot...dont play it anymore...but when I did...is it only lacy programming making it soo hard to win any combination of 10,J,Q,K or A in free spins with 1024 ways? I mean there is sooo many of this lowpaying symbols everywhere, still you almost never hit a winning combination of those?? Only me notice this?? Its not random...its what I called rigged and not random.

I have more for you but I stay here for now...

 

[prop82]

Time to buzz the tower again... Trancemonky are you there?

First, I think we both can aggree that any win amont from a slot spin is decided before any reels stops and if bonus/free spins are triggered the total win amount is already decided at the time you hit the spin button...and I talk about all diffrent softwares, we have seen proof of this so I think that is pretty clear. Nothing to discuss but sure the winnings are still random and fair ofcoarse...

But I think its abit sad when you for ex hit a big multiplier or alots of free spins the reels outcome is more stingy...preventing bigger wins and so on..you know what I mean.

As a programmer you are...wouldn´t it be more fun and exciting if there are parts of the software that are totally disconnected from the calulations of winnings and payout...but maybe another part of the software that compenasting any win or loss for the casino AFTER the spin is finished...
Lets say you win a free spin or bonus with a big multipler and the slot reels stops at random and no knowing of any multiplier or so..I mean 100% random, nothing pre-set before the feature starts...and IF the player win big or huge the software and payout calculator will know about it after the feature is finished...and then AFTER that import that info in the software so it will compensate for that hug win. I dont see the problem in doin this except little bit more complicatet programming maybe? You understand what Im saying?
And when you are picking somthing in a bonus until you hit a bomb or end-symbol...we all know it doesnt matter how you pick, whats behind changes how you pick, it just mimic the real randomness of outcome and making sure the payout is fair. Why not let it be fixed symbols behind you picks?

And for ex this Jungle Spirit slot...dont play it anymore...but when I did...is it only lacy programming making it soo hard to win any combination of 10,J,Q,K or A in free spins with 1024 ways? I mean there is sooo many of this lowpaying symbols everywhere, still you almost never hit a winning combination of those?? Only me notice this?? Its not random...its what I called rigged and not random.

I have more for you but I stay here for now...

about the low paying symbols in freespins at junglespirit its not just you who noticed that.
the number of wins from 10 J Q K A is in no relation to the number of possible ways to win.

 

[trancemonkey]

Just on holiday...

I'll answer all the recent posts soon. Thanks for the questions!

 

[nikantw]

Can it be possible that my rtp rate in some point of time be above 97% or more, playin online microgaming. And losing overal lot of money on small stakes..When i play games of low rtp game like BDBA 95,4%, can i get big win there , even if my current rtp is 95,9%, but i do play mostly games of best rtps 96,6- 97%

RTP is mostly irrelevant ....

You can win big at any spin, RTP or TRTP have nothing to do with that. For example DoA has 1/20,000 chance to give a >1000x win. That doesn’t change if your current season has RTP of 10% or 500%.

Best way to see RTP is: RTP = How long I will play before I lose all my deposit.
96% RTP doesn’t mean I will deposit 100 and lose 4. That is the case only if I just bet 100. RTP applies on bets. Most will play until bust or withdraw, so higher RTP is very important because it has huge impact on your playtime. Really huge! With 96% RTP you will wager 33 times your deposit before bust, when with 60% only 2.5 times!! The impact of RTP on our playtime is humongous!!

Land based casinos or sports books need you to lose fast, that’s why they have low TRTP. Although anything lower than 90% should be illegal in any country that cares for the people. Instead, not so long ago, you heard the head of a Gambling Commission respond to accusations about very low TRTP “we don’t want to let the competition make the product better (better TRTP) to protect people from addiction.”!!

Is BTG run by maths geeks or just crazy people with a ton of money to throw at an idea that could have just crashed and burned ?

Just been playing Bonanza and can't get my head around how they calculated it all , so that's the reason the question...

Big cost? I would do the math for €500. Actually you could find thousands of unemployed mathematicians in my country that would do it for that amount of money. Without experience, but willing to learn everything about slot maths and do all the work for Bonanza for just €500.
Just mean that high quality unemployed personnel does exist in a country with very low wages and that I can personally think of a couple of ways it can be done (although I have 0 experience with slot maths).

 

[trancemonkey]

I have a maths question, I have noticed that NetEnt are advertising for slots matematics manager , and slot mathematician...

Regarding the maths manager position, the job description looks like a slot designer job, as a designer do you need the maths knowledge personally or can it be a more of a Project management job ? Can you give any info on what software companies use to develop the ideas and algos ?

Looking at BTG slots, if you as a designer woke up one day and went to your boss and said .. "'I have this great idea where we have maybe over a hundred thousand paylines and maybe an infinite bonus but it constantly changes" ,
A) would he think you were mad
B) say ok but do it in your own time as you might be mad but see how it goes
C) give you free reign and let you spend probably months and lots of money on a wacky idea?

I'm asking as BTG seem to have a very innovative game format , what looks like horrendously complicated maths behind it, so what chance would that kind of game have had to develop at one of the bigger companies ?

Is BTG run by maths geeks or just crazy people with a ton of money to throw at an idea that could have just crashed and burned ?

Just been playing Bonanza and can't get my head around how they calculated it all , so that's the reason the question...

I would imagine that and maths related job would need an understanding of slot mathematics, or certainly mathematics in general to degree standard. A knowledge of Excel, together with either VBA or more likely Python programming experience would also be worthwhile - our maths guys use python for writing the simulations and excel for calculations.

And with regards to something like Bonanza - sure it's probably complicated, but most slot games are probably way more complicated in the background than you could imagine in order to make the games play well. At IGT, i get free reign (or as free as the budget allows!) to do pretty much anything, so if i had come up with a Bonanza style game i would have been able to make it here...

I believe it took them a long time to get the first Megaways game done (i seem to recall being told it took about 12 months) so i'm not surprised they are milking it now it's been a success - fair play to them. I don't play them - and i love volatile games!

 

[trancemonkey]

Interesting read, but it raises additional questions about the RNG, I just browsed the comments and these two stick out:

Major myth in this article: RNGs generate random numbers. There's no such thing as software that generates random numbers. There is only software that simulates randomness

and

The article is perpetuating a myth in itself by the RNG reference "“Today’s slot machines don’t work that way,” Olaf said. “They are based on RNGs or random number generators.”

They are now commonly called PRNGs (Psuedo Random Number Generators).
No computer is capable of true randomization, and if it were truly random, no casino would purchase such a machine because it could not produce a guaranteed or adjustable profit margin.
If a machine was truly random it would be impossible to adjust the "hold percentage" at all.
A truly random machine would have prevented Ronald Dale Harris, a former slot machine programmer, from using equations for computer Keno machines that allowed him to choose correctly a set of selected winning numbers based on the previous games already played.

Especially the last sentence seems worrying, but I must admit I have no knowledge whatsoever of higher maths.

Can you explain please?

I can indeed explain - there is pretty much no such thing as a true RNG. They are referred to as PRNG's as you say - however, a good PRNG should not be able to be broken in the way some have. There are many ways to make your PRNG as robust as possible - the best and most obvious one is to use something that is constantly changeable (such as frame rate) to produce your random numbers. So, for example, if on every frame you produce a random number (even if it's not used), as frame rate is rarely perfectly constant you should be able to get random numbers without someone being able to hack them.

There have been (and probably still are) some very shoddy PRNG's released in games - but nowadays it is harder, and PRNG's all have to pass many laboratory test before they are certified.

 

[trancemonkey]

Hey - i like it in my Tower - it has comfy seats, a whirlpool spa, and a hotline to Dunover in case i need to learn a new swear word quickly

Answers inline below in red

Time to buzz the tower again... Trancemonky are you there?

First, I think we both can aggree that any win amont from a slot spin is decided before any reels stops and if bonus/free spins are triggered the total win amount is already decided at the time you hit the spin button...and I talk about all diffrent softwares, we have seen proof of this so I think that is pretty clear. Nothing to discuss but sure the winnings are still random and fair ofcoarse...

Yeah, of course - the game knows exactly what the reel outcome will be shortly after you press the SPIN button

But I think its abit sad when you for ex hit a big multiplier or alots of free spins the reels outcome is more stingy...preventing bigger wins and so on..you know what I mean.

As a programmer you are...wouldn´t it be more fun and exciting if there are parts of the software that are totally disconnected from the calulations of winnings and payout...but maybe another part of the software that compenasting any win or loss for the casino AFTER the spin is finished...
Lets say you win a free spin or bonus with a big multipler and the slot reels stops at random and no knowing of any multiplier or so..I mean 100% random, nothing pre-set before the feature starts...and IF the player win big or huge the software and payout calculator will know about it after the feature is finished...and then AFTER that import that info in the software so it will compensate for that hug win. I dont see the problem in doin this except little bit more complicatet programming maybe? You understand what Im saying?

Actually the two things HAVE to be legally disconnected - we are not allowed to pick a multiplier based on the win amount. For example, if you have a win multiplier that activates randomly and pays either 2x, 5x or 10x, you can not base the multiplier on anything other than chance, and that chance must be the same regardless as to whether the win is 1€ or 100€ - again i can't speak for every developer, but in my experience, what you are asking for is what happens. But obviously big wins don't happen very often, so when you do get a big win you are of course less likely that this is a high multiplier. The old WMS Star Trek games with the Win Warp feature on it has certainly given me big wins and then put a 10x multiplier on them before.

And when you are picking somthing in a bonus until you hit a bomb or end-symbol...we all know it doesnt matter how you pick, whats behind changes how you pick, it just mimic the real randomness of outcome and making sure the payout is fair. Why not let it be fixed symbols behind you picks?

Not every game is predetermined - some are true picks, although most probably are

And for ex this Jungle Spirit slot...dont play it anymore...but when I did...is it only lacy programming making it soo hard to win any combination of 10,J,Q,K or A in free spins with 1024 ways? I mean there is sooo many of this lowpaying symbols everywhere, still you almost never hit a winning combination of those?? Only me notice this?? Its not random...its what I called rigged and not random.

My guess is the producer wanted 95% of all the wins in the feature to come from the symbol you've picked, and that the reel bands are designed in a way that makes all other wins VERY unlikely. I'm not against doing this, and have done similar things in the past...

I have more for you but I stay here for now...

Hope that helps for now

 

[brianmon]

First, I think we both can aggree that any win amont from a slot spin is decided before any reels stops and if bonus/free spins are triggered the total win amount is already decided at the time you hit the spin button...and I talk about all diffrent softwares, we have seen proof of this so I think that is pretty clear. Nothing to discuss but sure the winnings are still random and fair ofcoarse...

Yeah, of course - the game knows exactly what the reel outcome will be shortly after you press the SPIN button

Obviously the outcome of an individual spin is known before the reels even start to move.
But the total win from a free spins feature, known as soon as the feature is triggered.....?

 

[trancemonkey]

Obviously the outcome of an individual spin is known before the reels even start to move.
But the total win from a free spins feature, known as soon as the feature is triggered.....?

Some providers calculate the entire free spins game at the moment it is won... QuickSpin for example. It's still random of course... I think BluePrint do it too. There are quite a few that do it this way...

 

[Tourettesguy]

Some providers calculate the entire free spins game at the moment it is won... QuickSpin for example. It's still random of course... I think BluePrint do it too. There are quite a few that do it this way...

Im pretty sure all providers do this... Lets say you disconnect your internet or end the game and log out in middle of a free spins feature and youve played 7 out of 15 free spins....if you come back an hour later you will get exactly the same outcome of the remaining 8 spins that you would get if you stayed online and played all 15 free spins. No way you will get diffrent spins and payout if you wait an hour or two at any provider! Its already set from the start when you won the feature ofcorse!

 

[brianmon]

Im pretty sure all providers do this... Lets say you disconnect your internet or end the game and log out in middle of a free spins feature and youve played 7 out of 15 free spins....if you come back an hour later you will get exactly the same outcome of the remaining 8 spins that you would get if you stayed online and played all 15 free spins. No way you will get diffrent spins and payout if you wait an hour or two at any provider! Its already set from the start when you won the feature ofcorse!

Why would it make a difference if you disconnected and waited an hour or two, to continue?
If the spins aren't pre-determined with a particular provider, you WOULD get different spins, but that doesn't mean they'd be better spins.

 

[brianmon]

Some providers calculate the entire free spins game at the moment it is won... QuickSpin for example. It's still random of course... I think BluePrint do it too. There are quite a few that do it this way...

When you say 'calculate' do you mean they generate the reel positions for 10 spins from the RNG, then send each spin out.
Or they generate a win amount and select the appropriate reel positions to make up that amount?

 

[Tourettesguy]

Its like a lottery, when you win the free spin feature you basicly win a mulipler of you bet, same as an ordinary base spin..the free spin feature itself is just a graphics show to make it more exciting for you to see how much you won...so, the free spins are not real spins and cant be changed because that would interfer with the win amount..which already is decided.

 

[brianmon]

Its like a lottery, when you win the free spin feature you basicly win a mulipler of you bet, same as an ordinary base spin..the free spin feature itself is just a graphics show to make it more exciting for you to see how much you won...so, the free spins are not real spins and cant be changed because that would interfer with the win amount..which already is decided.

So if I play Immortal Romance and get a feature. The amount I've won is decided as soon as those 3 scatters land?
Let's say I've won £60.84, which is a real amount I've actually just won on the Sarah feature, which on a £0.90 stake was 67.6x stake

You're saying the game generated the number 67.6, then calculated what spins add up to 67.6x 90p and 'played them to me?

What would have happened if I'd chosen the Amber feature? It would be impossible to win 67.6x stake or £60.84, since all wins are multiplied by 5. The total win, therefore must be divisible by 5

Then there's the likes of DOA, how complicated would it be to generate a sequence of wins, with the added complication of sticky wilds, which have an impact on every spin following their 'sticking', to make a specific amount?

 

[trancemonkey]

Im pretty sure all providers do this... Lets say you disconnect your internet or end the game and log out in middle of a free spins feature and youve played 7 out of 15 free spins....if you come back an hour later you will get exactly the same outcome of the remaining 8 spins that you would get if you stayed online and played all 15 free spins. No way you will get diffrent spins and payout if you wait an hour or two at any provider! Its already set from the start when you won the feature ofcorse!

Not all providers do this - none of the ones I've ever worked at do it. WMS used to do it but don't any more. But there are some who pedetermine.

Obviously on games that don't predetermine of course you will get different spins and the opposite is also true. I don't have a list of who does and doesn't but it makes no real difference - the results were still generated at random just at the point you won the feature rather than on each spin - personally I prefer them to be generated on the fly

 

[trancemonkey]

When you say 'calculate' do you mean they generate the reel positions for 10 spins from the RNG, then send each spin out.
Or they generate a win amount and select the appropriate reel positions to make up that amount?

Contrary to what Tourettesguy thinks, we certainly don't pick a win amount and "get to it" - although oddly the old barcrest slots in bookies and bingo halls did exactly this (Rocky for example) but I've never seen or heard of anyone doing it and under most jurisdictions you couldn't do this anyway now.

Games that predetermine just simple play 10 spins (or however many it needs) straight away and send the client those spins.

 

[trancemonkey]

Its like a lottery, when you win the free spin feature you basicly win a mulipler of you bet, same as an ordinary base spin..the free spin feature itself is just a graphics show to make it more exciting for you to see how much you won...so, the free spins are not real spins and cant be changed because that would interfer with the win amount..which already is decided.

Where do you get this information?! We certainly don't do that in Free Spins as explained above...

 

[trancemonkey]

So if I play Immortal Romance and get a feature. The amount I've won is decided as soon as those 3 scatters land?
Let's say I've won £60.84, which is a real amount I've actually just won on the Sarah feature, which on a £0.90 stake was 67.6x stake

You're saying the game generated the number 67.6, then calculated what spins add up to 67.6x 90p and 'played them to me?

What would have happened if I'd chosen the Amber feature? It would be impossible to win 67.6x stake or £60.84, since all wins are multiplied by 5. The total win, therefore must be divisible by 5

Then there's the likes of DOA, how complicated would it be to generate a sequence of wins, with the added complication of sticky wilds, which have an impact on every spin following their 'sticking', to make a specific amount?

It would be very complicated to do quickly - and bear in mind the speed that the spin result has to come back, so complex game logic is avoided otherwise every spin would take a while to process.

Also there is just simply no point in doing it how Tourettesguy states - that's the whole point in good maths design and why maths can take a long time to do. I've spent two weeks just trying to get the maths right on my next game so it plays the best it can RANDOMLY. And to be honest it would probably be more time consuming to predetermine all the outcomes based on a target value and then weight the outcomes to give you the average you want.

Anyway - long story short - no we don't dobwhat TG said

 

[Tourettesguy]

So if I play Immortal Romance and get a feature. The amount I've won is decided as soon as those 3 scatters land?
Let's say I've won £60.84, which is a real amount I've actually just won on the Sarah feature, which on a £0.90 stake was 67.6x stake

You're saying the game generated the number 67.6, then calculated what spins add up to 67.6x 90p and 'played them to me?

What would have happened if I'd chosen the Amber feature? It would be impossible to win 67.6x stake or £60.84, since all wins are multiplied by 5. The total win, therefore must be divisible by 5

Then there's the likes of DOA, how complicated would it be to generate a sequence of wins, with the added complication of sticky wilds, which have an impact on every spin following their 'sticking', to make a specific amount?

Exactly so it is!

And depending of which feature you choose there are 3 different amounts pre-set behind them on IR slot. Even though the win amount is randomly set at start the free spins itselves are just a graphic show. Same with DoA ofcorase...the sticky wild know their positions and at what spin they will come at the time you trigger the free spins. Sure the free spin use "different reels" as they say(dont know if they says this about DoA but many other slots)...when wilds dont come as often as in base spins but in reality its just a show...

And trancemonkey, Ill comment more later of you long reply before.. But please name any provider that seek a free real spin every time in free spin mode. You said WMS...not sure but isnt that the provider that develop the Raging Rhino slot?? You cant say that this slot seek a fresh spin every time from server in free spin mode when people get 49 dead spins (with retriggers) and then hit full screen of Rhinos on the last spin...?

Generally I see evidence at all providers I play at that the free spins feature or bonus are already pre-determined at start. Ive give lots of examples later.

About this Jungle Spirit slots and the low paying symbols though... I tried it a couple of days ago again, quite fun when it somewhat loose and talking about these low paying symbols...dunno what animal I choosed in free spins when I got almost full screen of 10´s ..(2x4x4x4x2) for I think x500 bet. I mean how often does that happen when you almost never get 3 of a kind of 10´s???? If the reels are programmed in a way its hard to get low paying symbols to add up...how can this happen?? I got around 10 free spin features duing that session and none pay anything on low paying symbols except this big hit. It is for sure not just random and ofcorase this big hit of 10´s was pre-determined at start. Its easier to get 5 wild reels in Wild Desire than getting so many ways of lowpaying symbols in Jungle Spirit when you look at all other free spins feature in JS whne almost never a lowpaying symbol pay anything. I say its extremely lacy programming from NetEnt side...

 

[trancemonkey]

Exactly so it is!

And depending of which feature you choose there are 3 different amounts pre-set behind them on IR slot. Even though the win amount is randomly set at start the free spins itselves are just a graphic show. Same with DoA ofcorase...the sticky wild know their positions and at what spin they will come at the time you trigger the free spins. Sure the free spin use "different reels" as they say(dont know if they says this about DoA but many other slots)...when wilds dont come as often as in base spins but in reality its just a show...

And trancemonkey, Ill comment more later of you long reply before.. But please name any provider that seek a free real spin every time in free spin mode. You said WMS...not sure but isnt that the provider that develop the Raging Rhino slot?? You cant say that this slot seek a fresh spin every time from server in free spin mode when people get 49 dead spins (with retriggers) and then hit full screen of Rhinos on the last spin...?

Generally I see evidence at all providers I play at that the free spins feature or bonus are already pre-determined at start. Ive give lots of examples later.

About this Jungle Spirit slots and the low paying symbols though... I tried it a couple of days ago again, quite fun when it somewhat loose and talking about these low paying symbols...dunno what animal I choosed in free spins when I got almost full screen of 10´s ..(2x4x4x4x2) for I think x500 bet. I mean how often does that happen when you almost never get 3 of a kind of 10´s???? If the reels are programmed in a way its hard to get low paying symbols to add up...how can this happen?? I got around 10 free spin features duing that session and none pay anything on low paying symbols except this big hit. It is for sure not just random and ofcorase this big hit of 10´s was pre-determined at start. Its easier to get 5 wild reels in Wild Desire than getting so many ways of lowpaying symbols in Jungle Spirit when you look at all other free spins feature in JS whne almost never a lowpaying symbol pay anything. I say its extremely lacy programming from NetEnt side...

Tourettesguy - once again you are basing your comments on "feeling" and nothing more... You have shown many times that you have a pre-set way of thinking, and although you ask the questions, you are incapable of accepting answers that do not conform to your thoughts.

I can guarantee you that WMS, IGT, Inspired, Games Warehouse, Aristocrat and most companies do NOT do it how you think they do it... i can only think of one (Barcrest, in the UK many years ago) who did it like this, and they certainly don't do it any more.

You can think whatever you want of course - but none of your "evidence" backs up what you are suggesting, whereas i know for a fact that most companies simply do not "pick a value and get there".

And with your Jungle Spirit example - why is that proof of predetermination? It simply isn't - it's just proof that somewhere in the maths in the Free Spins there is a chance of picking a set of reels that has a lot of 10's on it... albeit that's probably quite a small chance. So no - it's not "for sure" at all.

 

[trancemonkey]

Exactly so it is!

Just an addition - have you any idea how long it would take to calculate 50 spins that gave you the exact number (67.6x) from the free spins? I'll tell you - a long time! To do this on the fly would be simply impossible when players expect a quick (a few millisecond) response time from the server. And i would NEVER design a game where i had to go through every possible outcome (as a multiplier of stake) and try and find many different ways of getting there. It's a crazy suggestion - it makes no sense from a mathematical or game design point of view, and is in fact more onerous than just doing it the normal way.

But i get the feeling you will totally ignore facts, and continue with your beliefs anyway

 

[Tourettesguy]

Big Time Gaming can set their reels in correct position (bas game hit) in an instant to show for ex a 58,6x win..and here we talk 117000+ ways, lots of differant symbol and sizes of the symbols...explain how they do it in a few milliseconds please?

 

[trancemonkey]

Big Time Gaming can set their reels in correct position (bas game hit) in an instant to show for ex a 58,6x win..and here we talk 117000+ ways, lots of differant symbol and sizes of the symbols...explain how they do it in a few milliseconds please?

Because they aren't picking 58.6x and spinning a win to show it - they are picking reel band positions RANDOMLY which happen to give a 58.6x win...the same way almost every game works. Unless you have evidence that they are doing something else...

Why do you think we would pick a value and spin to it?

 

[Tourettesguy]

Btw, when I remember... Microgaming do this!
About a year ago playing IR..picking (Guy with blue suit feature) game went crazy at start and my upcoming monstrous win was visible before festure ended! Even music changed through the feature because some kind of "hot mode"...same with this Battlestar Galactica slot before..the music became different and more intese during a mega win feature..jappen sevdral times.

And about BTG slots...have to put a post-it over spin win balance on my monitor cause the win amount show the upcoming win there exact same time I press spin button in each and every spin.

 

[nikantw]

....players expect a quick (a few millisecond) response time from the server...

Big Time Gaming ....explain how they do it in a few milliseconds please?

Because they aren't picking 58.6x and spinning a win to show it - they are picking reel band positions RANDOMLY which happen to give a 58.6x win...the same way almost every game works.

Btw, when I remember... Microgaming do this!
About a year ago playing IR..picking (Guy with blue suit feature) game went crazy at start and my upcoming monstrous win was visible before festure ended! Even music changed through the feature because some kind of "hot mode"...same with this Battlestar Galactica slot before..the music became different and more intese during a mega win feature..jappen sevdral times.

And about BTG slots...have to put a post-it over spin win balance on my monitor cause the win amount show the upcoming win there exact same time I press spin button in each and every spin.

@Tourettesguy,
Can you count milliseconds? That is how long it takes for the response from the server. To you it feels like "the exact same time I press spin" because your pc is a lot faster than you.

@trancemonkey,
Since we are back to BTG
You said Bonanza doesn't have reel bands, can you describe (in as much detail as possible) how do you think it works?

 

[trancemonkey]

Btw, when I remember... Microgaming do this!
About a year ago playing IR..picking (Guy with blue suit feature) game went crazy at start and my upcoming monstrous win was visible before festure ended! Even music changed through the feature because some kind of "hot mode"...same with this Battlestar Galactica slot before..the music became different and more intese during a mega win feature..jappen sevdral times.

And about BTG slots...have to put a post-it over spin win balance on my monitor cause the win amount show the upcoming win there exact same time I press spin button in each and every spin.

I've never seen the balance update on Bonanza or any other BTG game before the reels have stopped - maybe it does if another browser is open - but that's simply because as soon as you press the start button, the server gets a spin request from the client and then sends the result (calculated VERY quickly) back to the client - so within a few milliseconds, the client knows the outcome of the spin. The client then shows this to you through the game outcome.

Microgaming might be another that calculates all Free Spins at the point the feature is won - as i've said, this is quite common - but it certainly ISN'T it deciding on a value and then working out how to get there. So if you have two browsers open - one with the game and one in the lobby, you might see your balance update in the lobby before the free spins have played. Most new casinos don't open the games in seperate browsers, so this wouldn't happen...

 

[Steviedoo]

At videoslots...when you get a bonus feature on one of the games....their little trophy pop ups will give you an indication of how much (not exact amount)you've won before the bonus feature ends...so in the middle of the feature..u will get the pop up...you've just won the super mega win...usually more than 100x...so you know a big hit is coming.....usually happens on playngo....or red tiger...

 

[BlaCGaming]

I've never seen the balance update on Bonanza or any other BTG game before the reels have stopped - maybe it does if another browser is open - but that's simply because as soon as you press the start button, the server gets a spin request from the client and then sends the result (calculated VERY quickly) back to the client - so within a few milliseconds, the client knows the outcome of the spin. The client then shows this to you through the game outcome.

Microgaming might be another that calculates all Free Spins at the point the feature is won - as i've said, this is quite common - but it certainly ISN'T it deciding on a value and then working out how to get there. So if you have two browsers open - one with the game and one in the lobby, you might see your balance update in the lobby before the free spins have played. Most new casinos don't open the games in seperate browsers, so this wouldn't happen...

What about the timing of the spins? Can it be scrambled? For example 10 free spins on IR, the results get called for 10 spins, one of them is a big win. Can the game decide when to show you this exact spin? Because I have had a lot of bonuses where I always get a big win only the last spin only. Any word on that?

 

[trancemonkey]

What about the timing of the spins? Can it be scrambled? For example 10 free spins on IR, the results get called for 10 spins, one of them is a big win. Can the game decide when to show you this exact spin? Because I have had a lot of bonuses where I always get a big win only the last spin only. Any word on that?

Legally... As far as I know they could in some jurisdictions... But of course this doesn't work on games with collection mechanics in the Free Spins or games where things hold over or whatever.

 

[trancemonkey]

At videoslots...when you get a bonus feature on one of the games....their little trophy pop ups will give you an indication of how much (not exact amount)you've won before the bonus feature ends...so in the middle of the feature..u will get the pop up...you've just won the super mega win...usually more than 100x...so you know a big hit is coming.....usually happens on playngo....or red tiger...

Yeah so this a shoddy coding combined with some providers that predetermine (at the point of winning the free spins) the outcome from those free spins. So the client knows the total win and the casino is reading this information before a game complete command is issued.

It is very important to point out on this current topic that whether the free spins are called one by one or all together at the start it has absolutely no impact whatsoever on the outcome ... Both are equally random and equally fair... It is just different ways of programming features.

 

[Spikie]

If someone wanted to set up a new slot company and design slots for online , how could they go about this ?

How do you go about getting the programming specs from platform providers or casinos , or commands and info you have to relay back and in what format ?

Do the platform providers have some sort of api , how can new people get this info , and do they have some sort of demo environment or sandbox where you can simulate the real world ?

 

[trancemonkey]

If someone wanted to set up a new slot company and design slots for online , how could they go about this ?

How do you go about getting the programming specs from platform providers or casinos , or commands and info you have to relay back and in what format ?

Do the platform providers have some sort of api , how can new people get this info , and do they have some sort of demo environment or sandbox where you can simulate the real world ?

All of that - you get the API from the platform providers and you integrate you game on to their platform. Most will guide you through it, but of course you need to have a casino willing to take your content (ideally) before you go about doing this. You need mathematicians (or the money to buy maths - their are many freelance maths people), graphics (most companies outsource as well as insource graphics) and developers. So you need your own framework - HTML5 is the way to go currently.

I don't really know the details of all the dev side of setting things up, but you need money, contacts, and you need some good game ideas.... without those 3, you have nothing

 

[trancemonkey]

Hi Trancemonkey,

I hope this doesn't fall into the line of questioning of "are slot machines fixed". I am very non-superstitious and I know it's all random, however - I "think" I am seeing cyles in some WMS games. Not particularly hot or cold cycles, but cycles of different combinations hitting for days at a time.

For instance, on Zeus, the last 2 weeks, I have gotten at least 3 rows of connecting Zeus's in my bonuses (sometimes line hits too), but 2 weeks before that, I couldn't get 2 Zeus symbols to even touch)..

Or on Montezuma, there have been 4 or 5 day periods I don't see 2 wheels hit, other periods of time, I will get 4 or even 5 wheels quite frequently

I am not claiming these are rigged or anything like that, but is it possible WMS has different cycles they put these games through that cycle in an out every few days or even weeks?

Thank You!

What you're seeing is just the product of random games being random... nothing more, nothing less
That said, when i'm playing a game and i think it's "being hot", i tend to stay on it too. I know it's just luck, but sometimes not even i can help myself