Ask me anything (about slots)!

[AlexJamesSmith]

You're correct - most jurisdictions don't allow the reels that are spinning through to show symbols that have no chance of appearing - in online slots the reels should change at the point the client gets the message back from the server (because it doesn't know the result, and will therefore spin either the old reels for a time) - this MIGHT be what you saw

Gotcha. Did you watch the video? It's odd, because this doesn't happen on the first spin of the bonus - it's near the end - so this would presumably eliminate the possibility that it's just server lag?

 

[brianmon]

Actually I did but it's buried under 110 pages now

I was told the reason is that we offer a range of RTPs to the operators. When you open the help pages, they are apparently dumb to the correct RTP setting so do not know which RTP the game is set to. So in the help pages it shows a range from lowest to highest...

Personally I think this is bad... It's not beyond the will of man for the server to send to the client the target RTP to display in the help pages.

But that's the answer I got

Is that UKGC compliant then?

I thought the whole point of the UKGC rules on displaying the RTP was so that players could make an informed decision on whether to play or not.

NOT try to guess which maths model each casino has opted for.


And, actually, IGT display their RTP range in the paytable, NOT in a separate help file, which makes it even worse

 

[trancemonkey]

Is that UKGC compliant then?

I thought the whole point of the UKGC rules on displaying the RTP was so that players could make an informed decision on whether to play or not.

NOT try to guess which maths model each casino has opted for.


And, actually, IGT display their RTP range in the paytable, NOT in a separate help file, which makes it even worse

Yes it is UKGC compliant, although i agree it's far from ideal, and i don't really understand why we do it, but i'm not in the interactive team so i'm sorry i can't comment further...
The reason it is compliant is because we are showing the player the worst possible RTP setting.

 

[trancemonkey]

Gotcha. Did you watch the video? It's odd, because this doesn't happen on the first spin of the bonus - it's near the end - so this would presumably eliminate the possibility that it's just server lag?

That looks and sounds like shite code...

 

[brianmon]

Yes it is UKGC compliant, although i agree it's far from ideal, and i don't really understand why we do it, but i'm not in the interactive team so i'm sorry i can't comment further...
The reason it is compliant is because we are showing the player the worst possible RTP setting.

Well it's one reason why I don't go near IGT games, and I would guess it's the same for many other players.

So they're doing themselves no favours

 

[dunover]

I was watching one of your recent videos -

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- that one, and I noticed something strange.

When you're playing DHV, the Gates of Hell feature - which uses new reel sets - the scatter symbol shows on the reels. Look closely at 20:00 onwards - slow the video down using YouTube's controls and you will see it zooms past on the third and 6th reel.

How is this possible if there's a new reel set? I was also under the impression the UKGC didn't allow symbols to show on reels if there was no opportunity of them landing - which, given the bonus round, would be the case here, right?

Hoping Trancemonkey can chime in here, seems very odd!

No law against it, it's just lazy coding/graphics. Hitman flashes Wilds by on reels 1&5 despite the fact you cannot get them there. People make the mistake sometimes of thinking the slot is on their PC and the reels each stop randomly when told to by the server - in fact the result is already decided as soon as you press start, before the reels even stop - all you are seeing is a video-graphic generated to match the result the RNG has pulled. For ease of programming and bandwidth/game speed often the same graphics are used despite the fact they cannot be present in certain rounds.

You can see this on MG Viper casinos and say the Caddell casinos - look at your account balance and it'll show the result of your spin immediately, before the first reel even stops in the video graphics - you can tell what's coming in on your screen!

 

[AlexJamesSmith]

No law against it, it's just lazy coding/graphics. Hitman flashes Wilds by on reels 1&5 despite the fact you cannot get them there. People make the mistake sometimes of thinking the slot is on their PC and the reels each stop randomly when told to by the server - in fact the result is already decided as soon as you press start, before the reels even stop - all you are seeing is a video-graphic generated to match the result the RNG has pulled. For ease of programming and bandwidth/game speed often the same graphics are used despite the fact they cannot be present in certain rounds.

You can see this on MG Viper casinos and say the Caddell casinos - look at your account balance and it'll show the result of your spin immediately, before the first reel even stops in the video graphics - you can tell what's coming in on your screen!

Yeah, I've seen it on quite a few slots myself - the reason this stuck out, was because I was studying the reel strips that someone posted on Github, and I can't understand why - during the end of the bonus, when the scatters aren't actually ON the reels - why they show up!

 

[slotter999]

Yeah, I've seen it on quite a few slots myself - the reason this stuck out, was because I was studying the reel strips that someone posted on Github, and I can't understand why - during the end of the bonus, when the scatters aren't actually ON the reels - why they show up!

The person that posted that info did make it clear that the reels which were posted on github might not have real correlation to what is actually going on server side. So if things don't make sense from studying the posted reel strips it could be that you simply are not in possession of all of the information (almost certainly the case).

What did you find from studying the reels yourself apart from a bit of a headache? For instance did you figure out the biggest base game win possible before the "cascading" wins come into play and stuff like that?

 

[torors]

Hi Trancemonkey! New question!

I understand this can vary from operator to operator, but are reel stop positions usually pulled as separate, scaled integers from the (P)RNG? Or is it just a single integer, split into smaller ones?

Pulling five, sometimes six (BTG et al.) pseudo-random integers from the (P)RNG on every spin will generate quite some traffic compared to just a single integer...

 

[trancemonkey]

Hi Trancemonkey! New question!

I understand this can vary from operator to operator, but are reel stop positions usually pulled as separate, scaled integers from the (P)RNG? Or is it just a single integer, split into smaller ones?

Pulling five, sometimes six (BTG et al.) pseudo-random integers from the (P)RNG on every spin will generate quite some traffic compared to just a single integer...

That's operator specific - but bear in mind that the game (client) asks the server for a spin result. The server then does all the work it needs to to generate the result (and some games can be very complex with many RNG's required) and then the server sends back the spin result in a single packet of data.

 

[steveh35]

I have 100 free spins to play if I play them now will I get a different result to if I played them later or are they already pre-determined?

 

[trancemonkey]

I have 100 free spins to play if I play them now will I get a different result to if I played them later or are they already pre-determined?

Well, that depends on whether you ask someone who knows what they are talking about, or one of the tin-foil-hat brigade

For the record - NO games (from any reputable provider that i'm aware of) predetermine anything WITH THE EXCEPTION THAT some game providers go predetermine all free games (i.e the feature/bonus) at the point the free spins are won - this makes the bonus easier to recover if the connection is lost. I've touched on this deep within the bowels of the thread - some believe me, some don't. However, the good thing about the truth is that it's true whether you believe it or not

No matter what game you choose, each "free spin" you have (i.e i assume you're talking about spins the casino have awarded you for a deposit or whatever) will be randomly determined at the point you press the start button for each one of them.

 

[Flyer187]

Just a quick congratulations and thanks for this thread trancemonkey - it's now a go-to resource for the community and contains some great info

 

[dicky wink]

I was watching one of your recent videos -

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- that one, and I noticed something strange.

When you're playing DHV, the Gates of Hell feature - which uses new reel sets - the scatter symbol shows on the reels. Look closely at 20:00 onwards - slow the video down using YouTube's controls and you will see it zooms past on the third and 6th reel.

How is this possible if there's a new reel set? I was also under the impression the UKGC didn't allow symbols to show on reels if there was no opportunity of them landing - which, given the bonus round, would be the case here, right?

Hoping Trancemonkey can chime in here, seems very odd!

Watching this in slow motion i came to the conclusion that the spinning reels in the bonus are a bit of a farce ... it uses the same animation every spin starting with the same symbols, all it does is change the last 4 symbol images at the end of the spin ( the ones that drop in ) so its not like its using reel bands as per a normal game.

all the best
Dicky

 

[torors]

That's operator specific - but bear in mind that the game (client) asks the server for a spin result. The server then does all the work it needs to to generate the result (and some games can be very complex with many RNG's required) and then the server sends back the spin result in a single packet of data.

Does this mean that game operators are in no way required to atleast let the games play like slot machines? Eg. could they just pull a weighted random number in the range of the current paytable and make that your return in coins times bet size? And then have the server come up with a sequence of reel stops awarding that win?

 

[goatwack]

I take it the reel strips are not indicative of real slot layouts, so long as the final visual outcome is representative of the RNG. the near-misses and visual bait should have no place in the game if not attainable, but then I can't imagine the UKGC stressing too much over it

 

[trancemonkey]

Does this mean that game operators are in no way required to atleast let the games play like slot machines? Eg. could they just pull a weighted random number in the range of the current paytable and make that your return in coins times bet size? And then have the server come up with a sequence of reel stops awarding that win?

I'm not sure what you mean - but if you're saying "could the casino just force certain random numbers" then the answer is of course no. A casino doesn't have any direct access to the game - which is why when something goes wrong, the casino has to contact the game provider and get the information from them. The casino is basically operating a "portal" to the game. The casino integrates the providers games in to their system (i.e wallet, etc..) but the game is running on the game providers RGS (remote gaming server). Smaller game providers will integrate on to aggregator portals (Nyx, Quickfire, etc.).

 

[brianmon]

We only see the 'display' reels. it's the virtual reels within the game that do all the work.

If anyone want's to read an article on slots design/maths.... xxx.slotdesigner.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/Elements-of-Slot-Design-2nd-Edition.pdf

the section on virtual reels, starts on page 12

 

[trancemonkey]

I take it the reel strips are not indicative of real slot layouts, so long as the final visual outcome is representative of the RNG. the near-misses and visual bait should have no place in the game if not attainable, but then I can't imagine the UKGC stressing too much over it

In some jurisdictions, it is a requirement that the reel bands ARE indicative of the reel spin - Ontario for example. Of course this doesn't mean that the reels can't be weighted (virtual reels as brianmon mentions above), but it does mean that reel you see spinning is the reel that will land in view.

Online games are not required to do this, but most decent providers do... BTG is not one of these that do, and there are many other providers that don't. Online is more difficult in some ways as until the game receives the spin result from the server, it has no idea what reel bands will be used if there are multiple ones - a good example of this is Thunderstruck 2... if you are playing on a casino where there is a delay in the spin result and then you get the WILD feature (and there are many i've played on) then you will notice that normal reels spin through but then all of a sudden the reel bands will change drastically for the wild feature.

 

[Steviedoo]

Well, that depends on whether you ask someone who knows what they are talking about, or one of the tin-foil-hat brigade

For the record - NO games (from any reputable provider that i'm aware of) predetermine anything WITH THE EXCEPTION THAT some game providers go predetermine all free games (i.e the feature/bonus) at the point the free spins are won - this makes the bonus easier to recover if the connection is lost. I've touched on this deep within the bowels of the thread - some believe me, some don't. However, the good thing about the truth is that it's true whether you believe it or not

No matter what game you choose, each "free spin" you have (i.e i assume you're talking about spins the casino have awarded you for a deposit or whatever) will be randomly determined at the point you press the start button for each one of them.

this happened to me...
My iPad died on me on some pragmatic play slot during a bonus round....I replugged my iPad and then I completely forgot that this happened and went about my day...

A couple of weeks if not more than a month later I loaded up the game...and it told me I had unfished games....

it played out the bonus round and it got added to my balance...and it was a good bonus round!!


i have a question: why is it that on some games the money you win after a spin won't go into your balance unless you play another spin...and no it doesn't have the option to collect, gambleetc....this happens quite frequently...especially at Rizk.

ex: playing on golden ticket, fairy gate...the balance would not update no matter what i did...only way it updated on my balance in the game or account was to play another spin...

thank you

 

[trancemonkey]

this happened to me...
My iPad died on me on some pragmatic play slot during a bonus round....I replugged my iPad and then I completely forgot that this happened and went about my day...

A couple of weeks if not more than a month later I loaded up the game...and it told me I had unfished games....

it played out the bonus round and it got added to my balance...and it was a good bonus round!!


i have a question: why is it that on some games the money you win after a spin won't go into your balance unless you play another spin...and no it doesn't have the option to collect, gambleetc....this happens quite frequently...especially at Rizk.

ex: playing on golden ticket, fairy gate...the balance would not update no matter what i did...only way it updated on my balance in the game or account was to play another spin...

thank you

This is likely just the fact that the game is not updating your wallet via the RGS... if you go to the lobby, you will see your correct balance.

 

[goatwack]

I'm surprised that no one's petitioned Trancemonkey to design a slot just based on CM's community. It would be a superb slot with input from everyone....let's do a kickstarter

 

[Steviedoo]

This is likely just the fact that the game is not updating your wallet via the RGS... if you go to the lobby, you will see your correct balance.

...not on Rizk...i have to reload the game...play a spin...and then it shows me correct balance

 

[trancemonkey]

I'm surprised that no one's petitioned Trancemonkey to design a slot just based on CM's community. It would be a superb slot with input from everyone....let's do a kickstarter

I accept bribes in the form of money, sexual favours, and anything made of pig

In all seriousness, i'd love to get input from the non-tin-foil hatters... The problem is that due to confidentiality issues, i'm not sure i could tell you whether i'm actually doing it or not AND as i don't work in the online sector, it would be land-based only (certainly to start with) and that means that a game i start in January wouldn't be released until around 18 months later in the US (i.e Vegas).

And if you're name is Bloatgoat or TourettesGuy - no that doesn't mean i spend 6 months liasing with our competitors to somehow make sure that all our systems talk to one another to make sure we identify you and compensate / rig the hell out of the machines to make sure you have a terrible experience...

Although come to think of it, i might patent that idea

 

[TheAddict]

I accept bribes in the form of money, sexual favours, and anything made of pig

People may question your integrity here now that we know who you are, mr. Cameron.

 

[torors]

I'm not sure what you mean - but if you're saying "could the casino just force certain random numbers" then the answer is of course no. A casino doesn't have any direct access to the game - which is why when something goes wrong, the casino has to contact the game provider and get the information from them. The casino is basically operating a "portal" to the game. The casino integrates the providers games in to their system (i.e wallet, etc..) but the game is running on the game providers RGS (remote gaming server). Smaller game providers will integrate on to aggregator portals (Nyx, Quickfire, etc.).

I guess what I'm trying to say is, given a PRNG with proper distribution (Mersenne Twister, Fortuna), a paytable and reel layouts giving a certain RTP, why go through all the hassle of hiding all the details? Why can't you show me the real deal? These are the reel strips, here are the reel stop positions; you lost. Play again?

 

[trancemonkey]

I guess what I'm trying to say is, given a PRNG with proper distribution (Mersenne Twister, Furtuna), a paytable and reel layouts giving a certain RTP, why go through all the hassle of hiding all the details? Why can't you show me the real deal? These are the reel strips, here are the reel stop positions; you lost. Play again?

Are you suggesting that we would show you the actual maths for the games? I.e the most important part of the game that is the main IP that we have so anyone could just copy it? Hardly makes good business sense does it?

 

[goatwack]

I'm sure I read somewhere how games' math model works, and why companies fiercely safeguard their IP. Something about a group of chimps 'picking random players' names out of a hat' to determine their RTPs for each session. Numbers range from 10- 70%, but every once in a while a lucky punter may receive the Golden Stub to grant them a slight profit.

So that's all there is to it-

chimps & paper

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

Very good thread this guys..

May I ask a question?

On games like blueprints Ted/Duckula etc where u can gamble the features...

If on pressing start to spin the reels in the basegame a pre determined outcome has already been decided, how does it work when you are given the choice to collect or gamble a feature that’s been awarded that spin?

 

[trancemonkey]

Very good thread this guys..

May I ask a question?

On games like blueprints Ted/Duckula etc where u can gamble the features...

If on pressing start to spin the reels in the basegame a pre determined outcome has already been decided, how does it work when you are given the choice to collect or gamble a feature that’s been awarded that spin?

As previously mentioned... only a few companies predetermine bonuses AND even those that do would not be able to if they implemented this feature.

Therefore quite simply the answer is that only the reel outcome was determined at the press of the start. Then once you got the feature gamble, the game would send another outcome request at the point you decided to gamble to determine the win/lose of the outcome.

 

[trancemonkey]

I'm sure I read somewhere how games' math model works, and why companies fiercely safeguard their IP. Something about a group of chimps 'picking random players' names out of a hat' to determine their RTPs for each session. Numbers range from 10- 70%, but every once in a while a lucky punter may receive the Golden Stub to grant them a slight profit.

So that's all there is to it-

chimps & paper

They're gorillas... don't call them chimps as they really don't like it and get all upset..

 

[Missmeow81]

In australia paysafe is been sold but cant be used in gambling online so now I have a voucher i cant use what options do i have

Hey all

I've been a member of CasinoMeister since 2013, but to be honest i signed up and then didn't use the site (i know, i'm bad!)
However, as someone who plays slots and has working in the Fruit Machine and Slots industry over the past 20 years as a producer/coder (although i haven't coded for 10 years!), i have a real passion for the games!

Therefore, i'd like to invite you all to ask me anything you want Fruit Machine / Slot machine related - i'll do my best to answer any questions you might have about maths design, games production, etc. that you might want to know, and dispel (or even support) any myths you may have and want to discuss.

I also promise to be a lot more active on here from now on...

Regards
Dave

i

 

[trancemonkey]

i

In australia paysafe is been sold but cant be used in gambling online so now I have a voucher i cant use what options do i have

I'm afraid that's well outside my area of expertise... i'm not Australian, nor do i work at a casino operator, so i can't help you on this

 

[Steviedoo]

In australia paysafe is been sold but cant be used in gambling online so now I have a voucher i cant use what options do i have




i

Can you buy bitcoin with it? Or
You can also use paysafe vouchers for other things other than gambling...I do believe some gas stations take them....
Or
Can you transfer that amount into a PayPal?

 

[bogapasa]

trancemonkey i ask you why to play slot?, expecially online( playin your own slot), thers no pleasure, longer you play,more you lose, for example i just want to get even, but thats not going to happen,not even close, cause it work at best of 96% rtp, and this is the result, how much thay take me in 480000 spins on 0,11 euro average? i loose 2200 euro overall,before i play online i thought that are slots are fairest, cause in landbased casino(NOVOMATIC) seems i got sometimes profit and better wins, maybe cause im a low roller playin after high roller, anyway for my experience, online slot, i play microgaming, and i dont know, you can get 500 of a bet or more, only after 100000 of spins, but thil that you will get hundreds of 100-300 wins of bet, ups and downs(slow death) that will not satisfied you,it just make wagering, and when its finaly over 96% of rtp, thats the peak, its gone too far, and gone to another cycle ,of takin your money. What i mean? I agree slot providers had to get profit, but this much its robbery, thay take like 50% of real money input and i got to work for that,payin clicking like fool,nevermind for that, if they give me more good wins, if you sure cant be in profit overall,why losing must be so big,why slots provider need so much? And then when you complain,thay say you got gambling problem, what a thiefs bullshit, this is not honest and shouldnt exist, must be banned, its preprogramed losing, even if its random, its random losing.

 

[Missmeow81]

I would prefer minimal fees and cdont have a bitcoin account ... ay have to look into that it seems

 

[ddt]

Hi,

I have a question about seeds in progressive slots. What happens when two players hit the jackpot one after another? One of them takes the seed, but the players didn't have time to contribute enough money. Is it the house's loss? Or is it such possibility somehow included in the RTP?

Thank you in advance.

 

[trancemonkey]

Hi,

I have a question about seeds in progressive slots. What happens when two players hit the jackpot one after another? One of them takes the seed, but the players didn't have time to contribute enough money. Is it the house's loss? Or is it such possibility somehow included in the RTP?

Thank you in advance.

The seed value is built in to the game maths... so if 100 people all won it at the same time, the first player would get the full value of the progressive and all other 99 players would get the seed value. Players only affect the incremental portion of the progressive... I.e everything above the seed value. But the RTP is unaffected by coinciding wins...

 

[torors]

Hi Trancemonkey! New question!

You've been in the industry for a while. Did you ever come across a game that, unknowingly from the game developers side, had a "line bias"? Is it even possible that with a given reel layout line n pays more than the others on average?

 

[trancemonkey]

Good question....

Hi Trancemonkey! New question!

You've been in the industry for a while. Did you ever come across a game that, unknowingly from the game developers side, had a "line bias"? Is it even possible that with a given reel layout line n pays more than the others on average?

Good question...

On Games with cascading reels the lines near the top of the reel grid will pay more than those at the bottom. Of course the Maths is calculated knowing this, but yes there are games where not all lines have the same RTP.

In most games with lines though the calculation is normally done based on one line as the number of lines doesn’t matter as each one has the same RTP.

 

[CasinoNinja]

So to follow up on that, what happens when you change a 25 line slot to 1 line? Do you just make the slot way more volatile and keep the same RTP? (aka Pimped)

Also, I'm pretty sure in the past there was a way to choose exactly which lines you wanted, say you wanted line 3, 9 , 14 and so on. I don't see this option anymore, but from a player perspective if you had only selected lines that had multiply ways of winning on the same starting point, would that be beneficial to the player?

 

[trancemonkey]

As I've said... the number for lines doesn't affect the RTP. You're right though it does affect the volatility..

 

[brianmon]

As I've said... the number for lines doesn't affect the RTP. You're right though it does affect the volatility..

So it doesn't matter that on DOA, you could get double the top paying symbols (sheriff's badge) (2x 111x stake) from playing lines 3&7 or 2&6.
But can't achieve a win of the same amount, with any other combination of lines, be it a combination of any other 2 lines or even 7 lines (excluding 2&3 or 6&7)?

 

[trancemonkey]

So it doesn't matter that on DOA, you could get double the top paying symbols (sheriff's badge) (2x 111x stake) from playing lines 3&7 or 2&6.
But can't achieve a win of the same amount, with any other combination of lines, be it a combination of any other 2 lines or even 7 lines (excluding 2&3 or 6&7)?

No because the chance of getting a single line of those symbol is the same. If you added another 11 lines to DOA it and upped the bet to 20 the base game rtp would still be the same.

Where you would see a difference is in the free games because the positions of sticky wilds does affect the RTP...

You'll see a lot of games have fixed win lines nowadays... this is on purpose because as games get more complicated it's much easier to do maths for fixed number of winlines

 

[trancemonkey]

Just to let you all know I will almost certainly be at the Meister Meet (maybe not right from the start) - if you're there and have any further questions/abuse for me please don't hesitate to ask!

 

[goatwack]

Just to let you all know I will almost certainly be at the Meister Meet (maybe not right from the start) - if you're there and have any further questions/abuse for me please don't hesitate to ask!

Fashionably late eh. Just like my January Bonanza stats

 

[shadow123]

So to follow up on that, what happens when you change a 25 line slot to 1 line? Do you just make the slot way more volatile and keep the same RTP?


I have been playing around with Pimped, playing only 1 line,It gives the expected volitility on normal wins,but the free spins is a special case
as each spin is a winner on the single line.The feature can often pay 100x + which is hard to achieve when playing 10 lines.
When playing 2 lines, quite often only 1 of the lines gives a winner, only paying what a single line pays meaning the vtp is definately
lower playing 2 lines instead of one.Dont know if this factor is compensated for elsewhere but it is interesting.
Have only been playing on single coins of 1p but have ended up with £6 from a starting pot of £1 in a short time.

 

[trancemonkey]

Rant deleted... thanks to GreyLady for the clarification.

 

[slotmaster]

I'm done... greylady has pushed my button in the slot fairness thread. According to her I'm not dealing with facts. So that's it... I'm out of here. Enjoy!

See you at the Meister Meet but when I'm told I'm not talking facts and basically being called a liar I'm done.

You all wanted someone to give you a view from the inside and while some have been great others have told me I'm a liar. Well it seems that some people don't want the truth or aren't willing to listen so I'll leave you all to your conspiracy theories and rigged talk. I really am fed up of being called a liar. My patience just ran out.

Take care all

AWWWWW nooooooooo . Now I lose trancemonkey after losing youtube, 2 deposit's and money on a item that fell apart as soon as I touched it.

 

[trancemonkey]

AWWWWW nooooooooo . Now I lose trancemonkey after losing youtube, 2 deposit's and money on a item that fell apart as soon as I touched it.

No one wants the truth mate... they only want confirmation of their beliefs. And I won't be called a liar by anyone. That is not what I can where to do.