Are newly released slots “looser”?

satchnz

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I’m certainly no conspiracist (e.g. I don’t believe that providers release rigged slots), but I do subscribe to the theory that slots are “nerfed” over time. Even though I’m at the lower end of slot play frequency, I have still noticed how slots tend to play differently a few weeks after release. It feels as if the volatility profile of a slot is changed over time - less mid sized wins in exchange for more low sized wins (and perhaps a slight increase [negligible] of big wins). RTP remains the same.

I know the human brain loves to find patterns and sequences in things, but to me the change is definitely noticeable.

My question is - do others feel that newly released slots tend to be looser when first released, then tighten up over time? There would be incentive for slot providers to do this as it would help promote a slot and increase its popularity. And we tend to go back to those slots that we like (a.k.a games that we’ve had success in the past with), hoping to repeat our successes.

Thoughts?
 
I’m certainly no conspiracist (e.g. I don’t believe that providers release rigged slots), but I do subscribe to the theory that slots are “nerfed” over time. Even though I’m at the lower end of slot play frequency, I have still noticed how slots tend to play differently a few weeks after release. It feels as if the volatility profile of a slot is changed over time - less mid sized wins in exchange for more low sized wins (and perhaps a slight increase [negligible] of big wins). RTP remains the same.

I know the human brain loves to find patterns and sequences in things, but to me the change is definitely noticeable.

My question is - do others feel that newly released slots tend to be looser when first released, then tighten up over time? There would be incentive for slot providers to do this as it would help promote a slot and increase its popularity. And we tend to go back to those slots that we like (a.k.a games that we’ve had success in the past with), hoping to repeat our successes.

Thoughts?
When a new slot comes out there are many many people playing it all at once compared to the average player base later on in its life.

This results in a phenomena where it seems like everyone's winning more simply because more spins are happening in a small amount of time and therefore more big wins per day.
 
Does anyone remember NetEnt slots from about 10 years ago and how they were playing just after the release? Check out Dead or Alive 2 on YT, which isn't even that old, and you'll see that every streamer was hitting wild lines when it just came out.

I hit one myself at £0.09 for over 5,000x when i found £2 on a casino account and decided to check the new slot out. After that, never again.

How it's all nowadays, i've no idea.
 
When a new slot comes out there are many many people playing it all at once compared to the average player base later on in its life.

This results in a phenomena where it seems like everyone's winning more simply because more spins are happening in a small amount of time and therefore more big wins per day.
I’m purely talking about my own experiences.
 
Does anyone remember NetEnt slots from about 10 years ago and how they were playing just after the release? Check out Dead or Alive 2 on YT, which isn't even that old, and you'll see that every streamer was hitting wild lines when it just came out.

I hit one myself at £0.09 for over 5,000x when i found £2 on a casino account and decided to check the new slot out. After that, never again.

How it's all nowadays, i've no idea.
Although I’ve only been playing online slots for just under 5 years, I’ve also noticed changes to DOA2 over that period, and that’s the slot I spin the most. The big wins are still there, but the mid wins which maintain your balance are a lot more scarce nowadays.
 
I do feel you stand a better chance of at least more game time on a VERY popular slot than one which is less played, simply due to the sheer volume of bets going through it.
I wonder if they nerf the most popular slots later than less popular? For the most popular, the sheer number of spins they get probably play closer to RTP overall. A much less popular slot obviously gets less spins so any outlying wins probably stick out like a sore thumb (perhaps skewing actual RTP upwards?), motivating an earlier nerfing.

Or I could be well off base….
 
I wonder if they nerf the most popular slots later than less popular? For the most popular, the sheer number of spins they get probably play closer to RTP overall. A much less popular slot obviously gets less spins so any outlying wins probably stick out like a sore thumb (perhaps skewing actual RTP upwards?), motivating an earlier nerfing.

Or I could be well off base….
The provider nor the operators need the slot to meet it's theoretical RTP over however many spins. All that matters is that in simulations, the average return when you click spin is 96.5% or whatever the RTP is.

Those outliers don't affect the RTP of the slot. If a new slot was released and in the first week was having a aealised RTP of 102% due to many outlier Max wins. It doesn't change or skew the theoretical RTP.

Those outliers are just some of the many outcomes and the average will approach the mean eventually. Even if nobody played the game ever again and its final realised RTP was 102% it was still a 96.5% actual RTP slot, alot of people just had great variance in a short amount of time.

Operators care about the theoretical RTP and additionally the exposure (with many casinos limiting extremely volatile slots to low bet sizes for this reason). They don't care about the actual short term results people get.
 
I wonder if they nerf the most popular slots later than less popular? For the most popular, the sheer number of spins they get probably play closer to RTP overall. A much less popular slot obviously gets less spins so any outlying wins probably stick out like a sore thumb (perhaps skewing actual RTP upwards?), motivating an earlier nerfing.

Or I could be well off base….

Who knows what truly goes on behind closed doors lol? Debates have gone on, on here since I joined, he said, she said, they said but no hardcore undisputable evidence either way ever.

What I do know is that greed is human nature whether personal or business based. If I had a product which everyone wanted a piece of and it was making me money. I would find a way (ideally legal :p) for said product to make me even more money ;)
 
Who knows what truly goes on behind closed doors lol? Debates have gone on, on here since I joined, he said, she said, they said but no hardcore undisputable evidence either way ever.

What I do know is that greed is human nature whether personal or business based. If I had a product which everyone wanted a piece of and it was making me money. I would find a way (ideally legal :p) for said product to make me even more money ;)

It's a natural process. :D
 
Does anyone remember NetEnt slots from about 10 years ago and how they were playing just after the release? Check out Dead or Alive 2 on YT, which isn't even that old, and you'll see that every streamer was hitting wild lines when it just came out.

I hit one myself at £0.09 for over 5,000x when i found £2 on a casino account and decided to check the new slot out. After that, never again.

How it's all nowadays, i've no idea.
You got very lucky with the 5000x hit and the slot simply isn’t played very much anymore, at least by those who have YouTube influencer presence. It’s in their interest to push the latest greatest things.
 
Who knows what truly goes on behind closed doors lol? Debates have gone on, on here since I joined, he said, she said, they said but no hardcore undisputable evidence either way ever.

What I do know is that greed is human nature whether personal or business based. If I had a product which everyone wanted a piece of and it was making me money. I would find a way (ideally legal :p) for said product to make me even more money ;)
Oh I would never rule anything out. If the last decade, especially, has taught us anything is that nothing is off limits when making money and crime doesn’t just pay, it gets you a nice white pad in Washington.
 
The provider nor the operators need the slot to meet it's theoretical RTP over however many spins. All that matters is that in simulations, the average return when you click spin is 96.5% or whatever the RTP is.

Those outliers don't affect the RTP of the slot. If a new slot was released and in the first week was having a aealised RTP of 102% due to many outlier Max wins. It doesn't change or skew the theoretical RTP.

Those outliers are just some of the many outcomes and the average will approach the mean eventually. Even if nobody played the game ever again and its final realised RTP was 102% it was still a 96.5% actual RTP slot, alot of people just had great variance in a short amount of time.

Operators care about the theoretical RTP and additionally the exposure (with many casinos limiting extremely volatile slots to low bet sizes for this reason). They don't care about the actual short term results people get.
You’re misunderstanding me. I’m referring to actual RTP, not theoretical. Based on what wins the game has paid to date.

And I’m pretty sure if short term results were considerably skewed, operators would care.

Look, it may/probably doesn’t work like this but there is a noticeable difference in how some slots play at release compared to weeks/months down the track, in my experience. It doesn’t matter whether I’m the only one to ever play a specific slot or 1 zillion people are playing the same slot as me. My outcomes wouldn’t be any different assuming every spin is an independent event.

I’m interested in whether others get this same impression/experience.
 
You’re misunderstanding me. I’m referring to actual RTP, not theoretical. Based on what wins the game has paid to date.

And I’m pretty sure if short term results were considerably skewed, operators would care.

Look, it may/probably doesn’t work like this but there is a noticeable difference in how some slots play at release compared to weeks/months down the track, in my experience. It doesn’t matter whether I’m the only one to ever play a specific slot or 1 zillion people are playing the same slot as me. My outcomes wouldn’t be any different assuming every spin is an independent event.

I’m interested in whether others get this same impression/experience.
I'm aware you were discussing actual realised RTP, the point of my last post was that operators won't care about short term actual RTP unless it's from a completely new / unknown provider with little or no certifications. The only reason someone would be worried about short term realised RTP being out of whack is if they had a flawed understanding of what RTP is. OR I guess if the results are extremely skewed.

Theoretical RTP and Exposure were mentioned as those are the things that actually matter for operators, they aren't going to get nervous over an over performing slot.
 
They most certainly play looser upon release - it wouldn't be great marketing if they didn't. What better way to get players invested in a game than to bestow them with ungodly hits from the get-go, the likes of which, upon extended sessions, make you question how they could even be attainable that soon in!

I don't think it's by accident that near-enough every new game I've opened on or near release has played better than playing it a few months down the line, before settling on some form of mediocrity, with those early wonders all but vamoose!

So yes, of course they'd ramp up RTP to resemble Demo Play for a duration, get players believing they've stumbled upon one of the Seven Cities of Gold that only they know about, and of course align themselves with those fabulous, completely genuine big-money streamers whose luck seems 'infectious'.

It's business, and that's that 👌
 
They most certainly play looser upon release - it wouldn't be great marketing if they didn't. What better way to get players invested in a game than to bestow them with ungodly hits from the get-go, the likes of which, upon extended sessions, make you question how they could even be attainable that soon in!

I don't think it's by accident that near-enough every new game I've opened on or near release has played better than playing it a few months down the line, before settling on some form of mediocrity, with those early wonders all but vamoose!

So yes, of course they'd ramp up RTP to resemble Demo Play for a duration, get players believing they've stumbled upon one of the Seven Cities of Gold that only they know about, and of course align themselves with those fabulous, completely genuine big-money streamers whose luck seems 'infectious'.

It's business, and that's that 👌
I don’t think they alter RTP at any stage, I think they alter the volatility.

In terms of demo play, I’ve got no doubts whatsoever that demo slots play the same as real money slots. I regularly play a daily demo comp (Prag slots in association with a streamer/affiliate) and I mostly get dreadful results. Like really bad.
 
I’m certainly no conspiracist (e.g. I don’t believe that providers release rigged slots), but I do subscribe to the theory that slots are “nerfed” over time. Even though I’m at the lower end of slot play frequency, I have still noticed how slots tend to play differently a few weeks after release. It feels as if the volatility profile of a slot is changed over time - less mid sized wins in exchange for more low sized wins (and perhaps a slight increase [negligible] of big wins). RTP remains the same.

I know the human brain loves to find patterns and sequences in things, but to me the change is definitely noticeable.

My question is - do others feel that newly released slots tend to be looser when first released, then tighten up over time? There would be incentive for slot providers to do this as it would help promote a slot and increase its popularity. And we tend to go back to those slots that we like (a.k.a games that we’ve had success in the past with), hoping to repeat our successes.

Thoughts?
I think this both feasible and probable. But also completely within the regulations which I think is absurd and a failure of the regulation.

Force the operators to include a changelog in the game which states in clear English what changes were made in each update. Better still, standardise some basic statistics for any game (like some providers already do) and force any change to provide those updated statistics. Pretty trivial thing to implement imho but almost certainly won't happen of course.
 
I’ve always found it pretty piss poor how lax the regulations are around slots. At least in the UK the companies legally have to show the payback %age although often this is nicely buried in the help file.
The fact many counties allow for slots which not only fail to tell you what %age a slot is set to but also allow for changes in that %age without the player knowing is astonishing.
The allowance for the same slot to have multiple paybacks is also, frankly, disgusting.
Add to that the only requirement to meet these pathetic regulations is that your slot meets TRTP over billions of spins and it’s all a bit of a joke.
I do enjoy playing slots so it’s a shame that the industry will collapse, certainly in the UK, and the casinos/providers only have themselves to blame.
 
I imagine it would be completely within the rules for a slot to declare a 95% RTP (or no RTP declaration at all in certain countries...) but actually have a benevolent maths model for the first few weeks of release that paid out at (say) 99%. Get players hooked then the "real" 95% model is quietly popped into play.
 
I always find it odd that some people think rtp works on a global scale
If you flip a coin does it depend on how many people are flipping a coin in the world?
If you roll dice does the outcome depend on how many dice are being rolled?
If you spin a roulette wheel.. etc
A slot is just a more complex version of these with the possible outcomes ranging from zero to max win but the AVERAGE payout per spin will be rtp% of stake. When you play a slot the rtp is the same, regardless of how many other people are playing it and regardless of global wins and losses on the game.

As for whether they make new slots pay better? Well, I doubt it. The payout structure and mechanics are carefully designed to make you want to keep playing. That entails enough going on in the slot and keeping you interested/invested. If roulette can be so successful with an rtp of close to 98% then there is no need to employ a tactic of increased rtp initially followed by diminished rtp later on slots. Some slots remain popular for a long time, like Book of Dead, for example but I know many people now avoid playing that due to most sites using stated low rtp versions.. if a game stops paying you then eventually you stop playing it so it may work out worse longterm for a slot to employ this (illegal) diminished rtp tactic
 
I always find it odd when people compare roulette with slots, you can’t say roulette can be successful at 98% ( 97.3% actually ) so why can’t slots, it’s just not that simple as roulette can be played at hundreds of pounds a spin slots max £5 now etc the bigger the turnover the bigger the profit.

A lot of low rollers play slots at 20p - 40p a spin, you’re going to be fairly hard pressed to find anyone playing roulette at 20p a spin! ( 20p a chip maybe, but not per spin ) you just can’t compare the two in the same way.

Also it isn’t technically illegal to diminish RTP if the slot is certified at say 95% but they use certified 97% with a declared 95% RTP. This is because a slot only legally has to declare the minimum expected RTP.

Of course it would be illegal the other way round of using a 95% game being declared as a 97% one.

Also as has been stated many times you can have two identical slots eg “book of dead”with the exact same RTP but different volatility and realistically the player would not know which is in use, and is within the law, as is different volatility per stake providing RTP is unchanged or greater than the minimum stated RTP.

So it’s far more complex than the player is led to believe and providers can manipulate way more than you think and still stay compliant.
 
Slot spins are a lot quicker than roulette spins and anyone playing 40p slot spins is not going to bet £100+ spins on roulette. So the actual rate of wagering is the important factor
If you think they would increase rtp over stated rp for a while then where is the proof that would even make them more money? They will make significantly less money short-term and just because the rtp is higher still most people will lose on the game and even if they win they may not like the game and not play it again. New games get more volume of play overall because they are new and advertised as such - that new period lasts a couple of weeks and then that play volume drops off as other new games are released..
Having an interesting/well developed/ exciting game will make them much more money long-term than any risky rtp altering
I could make a slot with 100% rtp that no one would want to play again 🙃
Adjusting volatility has no benefit to the casino if the rtp is the same... they are better off using a volatility that players enjoy the most. Not sure how they would find that out but once they do there would be zero benefit to them changing it and making the game less popular
 
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