A Vegas VIP Lounge Statement Regarding The Recent Dispute Over Payment of Winnings

[VegasVIP Lounge]

The Vegas VIP Lounge would like to express its sincerest regret over a recent dispute that has arisen between the Casino Group and a number of players that are known to have been partaking in what can only be described as exploitative and abusive playing activities.

Following an in-depth investigation of this case, the Vegas VIP Lounge initially took the decision to lock the offending player's accounts and refund their initial deposits.

Although the Vegas VIP Lounge Group knows that this was the correct and just response to the actions of the players in question, criticism from the wider gaming community has prompted it to reappraise its recent actions. In turn the Vegas VIP Lounge has decided to pay the offending players their "winnings" (payments will be processed by 9 pm GMT on 07/12/06). The Vegas VIP Lounge would like to emphasise that the circumstances relating to this case are quite different from any other that it has encountered before. The players involved in these illegitimate playing activities have been both highly organised and inventive in their methods. Therefore, although their accounts will be reopened and winnings paid, the Vegas VIP Lounge Casino reserves the right to take whatever actions it sees as necessary should any of these players display any further signs of engaging in exploitative playing activities.

 

[mucullus]

If Vegas VIP Lounge had disclosed some more details on the circumstances of these case the gaming community may have been able to understand the casinos' judgement.

With the information presented in several threads and the concurrent lack of communication by this group of casinos how could anyone come to the conclusion that VVL took the "correct and just" action?

With all due respect, your statement is bad crisis PR.

 

[MadMat]

I played the same "system" on over a dozen mg Casinos through november. all but one paid me out when I won. (and I didn't win everywhere)

And I fail to see how playing the games you offer on the software you provide can be deemed exploitative abusive play!

Feel free to close my accounts, nothing in the world would entice me to redeposit at any of your casinos.

Mat

 

[soflat]

I played the same "system" on over a dozen mg Casinos through november. all but one paid me out when I won. (and I didn't win everywhere)

What system were you playing?

 

[MadMat]

What system were you playing?

LOL I've worked out a way to profit from slots only bonuses, and you want me to post it on here for everyone!

do your own homework

Mat

 

[soflat]

LOL. I didn't know this involved some super secret winning slot system. Good luck.

 

[MadMat]

LOL. I didn't know this involved some super secret winning slot system. Good luck.

I'd happily sell "MadMats Super Secret Beat the Online Slots System" for $100 to anyone who wants a copy!

If I sell enough copies the system will have worked

Mat

 

[vinylweatherman]

Interesting

So, now even playing slots with a 5% house edge on a bonus with 20x WR AND a requirement to exit with D+2xB at the end can not only be beaten, but in an exploitative manner.
Clearly, playing slots on a slots only bonus is now bonus abuse (the more common term for exploitative play). This amounts to saying players are not permitted to even TRY to win with the sign-up bonus.
This is often the WHOLE DAMN POINT of signing up, you see the terms, and feel you have at least a fair chance of winning enough to make it worth while placing your own funds at risk. This is NOT a "free chip" players deposited their own funds as well, and these were most certainly at risk.

It would seem that Vegas Affiliates and players are suggesting that the explotation was to play "certain specific slot games", and in a "certain manner".
WTF, press "spin"!!! It's bloody RANDOM, and with a house edge of 5%!
The only strategy on slots is to press "spin". We have been told there are NO PATTERNS, NO NON-RANDOM STRATEGIES/CYCLES in these slots. Yet not only do these players claim to have a winning slots system, the damn casino has admitted it is TRUE that "RANDOM" slot games can be beaten, and have reignited a debate about the possibility of the online games being "RIGGED" by inadvertantly suggesting that, perhaps, maybe, in some way they are!

The only comparison to this affair is getting banned for playing and winning on a UK pub "Fruit Machine", games that are about as random as Newtonian mechanics and planetary orbits.

I am sure many other players will be interested, and I suspect the endorsement of the casino industry will make these players a tidy sum and create a big headache for the industry.
If this turns out to be a software bug it will be too funny It takes MG forever to fix these!

 

[vinylweatherman]

System

I'd happily sell "MadMats Super Secret Beat the Online Slots System" for $100 to anyone who wants a copy!

If I sell enough copies the system will have worked

Mat

I think I know the system, but am utterly gobsmacked that it actually WORKS, because it really shouldn't unless the games are merely pseudorandom rather than fully random.

My own ideas are based on looking for the way the scatters fall in the free spin slots to predict bonus rounds, and also the way that the "hotness" and "coldness" of some slots varies with coin size and sometimes coins per line. It seems to alter a scatter dropping cycle that they don't have because they are random

I tried such an idea last week on Munchkins, and did not manage to turn £50 into £1000 by betting into, and out of, various scatter fall patterns. I didn't bet progressively in certain situations as this could not work due to the random nature of the game. In the end I didn't withdraw £1000 after deciding that enough was enough, and luck still played a huge part in all this.
Luckily, the casino had instant Neteller payments, so I DIDN'T HAVE TO WAIT



Ps - That WAS the punchline - nothing more to come!

 

[MadMat]

Yet not only do these players claim to have a winning slots system

I think your sarcasm detector might be broken matey . . . .

 

[soflat]

Clearly, playing slots on a slots only bonus is now bonus abuse (the more common term for exploitative play). This amounts to saying players are not permitted to even TRY to win with the sign-up bonus.

That's why good little players like me always try to lose when we play slot bonuses. Then the casino can't blame us if we happen to win.

The player in this case was clearly trying to win and not even hiding his intentions.

 

[terrellk11]

That's why good little players like me always try to lose when we play slot bonuses. Then the casino can't blame us if we happen to win.

The player in this case was clearly trying to win and not even hiding his intentions.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Sarcasm

I think your sarcasm detector might be broken matey . . . .

It's the industry that has put their big foot in it. There have been many cases of bogus slot systems being sold on the net, and casinos just laugh at people who come along thinking they can beat slots (as opposed to games like Blackjack) by using a system that does not involve tampering with the game itself. One player claims to have bet only $3 per spin, yet was still deemed to have been exploiting slots. Given that quite a few slots have the bet MINIMUM not too far below this because coin min is 25c this is a joke!

My tale was not sarcasm, I actually DID happen, but the casino accepted this as something that will happen on a random game, and whatever strategy I used made no difference to the outcome in the end, the slot was "s**t hot" that day, and I would have won whatever fiddlings I did with coins and lines.
For a casino group to elevate such types of system to the level of fraud and exploitative play either means the rep has mislead us in the explanation (missed out a few crucial facts), or has admitted that Microgaming slots at least CAN be consistently beaten by following set patterns of play. Their bonus has -EV on slots as a whole, so a normal run of luck should not have had this effect on them as they would always get it back in the end.
To cause worry, such a system must be capable of consistently beating the bonus more than not, and must mean that the slot payback is somehow affected by patterns of play or choice of games.

When I got banned from some Fruit Machine places I simply played the game with the buttons on the cabinet in front of me. I read the cycles to see whether the game was hot or cold, and chose feature games that had the best outcomes in the long run. Sometimes, although rarely, a software bug was involved, but often bans followed play that did NOT involve exploitation of such bugs.

However, I probably know more than you might think I do about beating bonuses by fair means or foul. If it is in the terms and conditions, then it is fair to at least try to win, and casinos should only be banning such players from FUTURE promotions if they are too skilfull, retrospective confiscation should NEVER be used unless a clear breach of terms has been committed, or the player has fraudulently obtained the promotion in the first place.

 

[kavaman]

What strikes me is that some of the payment of winnings were even without a bonus if im not wrong... Ok i understand that if a player joins into all these casinos barely meeting the wagering requirements, he "might" have a chance of winning something if he gets lucky, but bonus abuse. Cmon.. Slots 20x wr.

-kavaman

 

[fatihkur]

I have just received a reply from casino. They are not going to open my account with 5175 dollar in it. So here ,at the forum, their representative says one thing for the public and in private emails the casino says the opposite. May be that is because i won "too much". They will now pay 100 and 200 dollar winnings to some players just to keep situation quiet and they are not going to pay out the big winnings like mine. I have just sent an email to Ecogra. This casino lies all the time!

 

[BBKPoker]

Given the number of complaints, good riddance to this group. You deserve to be rogued. I thought it was suspect when they had tons of complaints a few months ago, then I thought it was peculiar when they stopped advertising on Meister, and now we know why. These guys seem to be out to lock and confiscate winnings wherever they arbitrarily feel like without listening to any kind of rationality or reason.

Hope they go out of business and 32red goes back to accepting US customers to replace them.

 

[Mousey]

.... The Vegas VIP Lounge would like to emphasise that the circumstances relating to this case are quite different from any other that it has encountered before. The players involved in these illegitimate playing activities have been both highly organised and inventive in their methods. Therefore, although their accounts will be reopened and winnings paid, the Vegas VIP Lounge Casino reserves the right to take whatever actions it sees as necessary should any of these players display any further signs of engaging in exploitative playing activities.

Dear me... now I'm dying of curiosity! "organized", "inventive", "illegitimate playing activities" (I do think the later should be spelled out in the T&C, don't you??) I see no mention of fraud (multiple accounts, etc.), nor of violation of T&C ... so... ummm... (and I know the casino rep won't tell us) I'm wondering just what the devil were these players doing that was so gosh darned awful ?? -- other than cashing out, that is.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Guilty of?

From reading the threads, it seems that a number of players are depositing, claiming the slots bonus, and spinning at mid to high bet levels on slots such as "Thunderstruck".

The rep claims this is an "illegitimate" playing method. Whether or not this was orgainsed, there is NO WAY that playing a slot at a bet available in the software is in any way "illegitimate". In one case, it seems that even $3 is seen as "illegitimate". Previously, grinding out bonuses with tiny bets are "illegitimate" methods of play - whatever next? what is this tiny window between 0.90c and $3 that will constitute "legitimate" play on slots?

"Organised" may simply mean that one of their affiliates did a damn good marketing job, and they should be grateful that so many players tried them out. Given that the first ever withdrawals were denied, the players were given NO OPPORTUNITY to show continuing loyalty by depositing in further weeks.

Other than this, it is possible the rep has issued a "smokescreen" statement in the hope that it will vindicate their case, and it has spectacularly backfired as they have left out any clue to what they mean other than the fact these players played slots, with a slots bonus, and had one of the bigger wins that come along every so often, but were unlucky enough that it came along while playing the new player bonus.
The next stage is to have a list of excluded slots for slots bonuses (don't laugh, some casinos have!), and say everyone must play slots like Moonshine or Harveys that are more predictable in that they rarely give out the big hits but more of the small ones, thus giving no real chance of meeting 20xWR AND being ahead by 1x Bonus.

 

[rabiddog]

issued a "smokescreen" statement in the hope that it will vindicate their case,

I think you are probably correct here. I mean come on, if illegitemate playing activities were used, wouldn't that be a perfect reason to keep the money? Instead this group got caught itself using illegitemate business practices by eCogra and now they are trying to justify it with an accusation. Just pay people what you owe them and maybe somewhere down the road you can earn back the trust of the online community and work your way off the Casino Miester Rogue list. But after what this casino group has done, they will have to work hard to earn that trust back. And posting a statement like that instead of owning up to bad business procedure is NOT a good start. j

I also want to add, there is no such thing as +EV on slots in the long run. HA is just way too high. You may get lucky and have a decent run, like I made $300 on Loaded playing a little here and there, but all it was is luck. Like vinylweatherman said I think it was, "You just hit the spin button". What kind of strategy is that. Plus, some of us never even played for a bonus.

 

[thelawnet]

From reading the threads, it seems that a number of players are depositing, claiming the slots bonus, and spinning at mid to high bet levels on slots such as "Thunderstruck".

The rep claims this is an "illegitimate" playing method. Whether or not this was orgainsed, there is NO WAY that playing a slot at a bet available in the software is in any way "illegitimate".

That appears to be the case..... Basically they offered people bonuses to encourage them to deposit and lose, but got upset when they didn't spend hours grinding away against the house edge, and in some cases even one.

Apparently this is 'illegitimate'.



Perhaps they should learn that if they want to offer bonuses they should offer them to loyal players, and if they don't offer bonuses they won't have any problems, and above all that casinos have to pay the winners - the deposit button isn't a 'donate' button.

 

[GrandMaster]

The Vegas VIP Lounge would like to emphasise that the circumstances relating to this case are quite different from any other that it has encountered before. The players involved in these illegitimate playing activities have been both highly organised and inventive in their methods. Therefore, although their accounts will be reopened and winnings paid, the Vegas VIP Lounge Casino reserves the right to take whatever actions it sees as necessary should any of these players display any further signs of engaging in exploitative playing activities.

Please share with us what constitutes illegitimate or exploitative playing activities. If the players committed fraud, then they should not be paid, but if stayed within the T&C, then they should have been paid and then have their accounts closed. If they found a genuine loophole in the T&C, and weren't just too lucky for the casino management's liking, then the person responsible for the T&C should be sacked and a competent person hired.

 

[rabiddog]

the deposit button isn't a 'donate' button.

 

[tim5ny]

:axeman2: Lies, Lies, Lies!!! How the mighty have fallen! It's a sad commentary for online gambling when even Microgaming casinos are pulling this crap. Are any/all of these players from the U.S. ?

 

[UKDafoe]

While their actions the past few months have been extremely questionable, Im surprised theyve decided to refund the money they seized. It suggests theyre willing to start over with a new attitude, hopefully the one that earned them everyones respect and made them eCogra and CM members. Assuming they do actually refund the money seized, they should be taken off the rogue list.

 

[VegasVIP Lounge]

A Further Statement From The Vegas VIP Lounge Group

The Vegas VIP Lounge Group understands the concern of the wider gaming community over its use of ambiguous language in referring to this group of players activities as illegitimate, exploitative and abusive. The casino group however cannot release further details relating to this case due to its implications for its partners and for the wider security of the Casino Group. The Vegas VIP Lounge would like to once again emphasize that it pays millions of winners every year without delay or hassle. It is a fact that wherever the Casino Group has made a genuine error, it has always done all that it can to compensate the players in question.

Unfortunately, over the past six months the Vegas VIP Lounge group has endured a number of attacks by scammers that abused the casino and subsequently used this forum to discredit the reputation of the Group. Again the Vegas VIP Lounge would like to stress that the activities which took place were unlike anything it has experienced before, and therefore do not fall into conventional categories of bonus abuse or fraud or scamming.

 

[GrandMaster]

Unfortunately, over the past six months the Vegas VIP Lounge group has endured a number of attacks by scammers that abused the casino and subsequently used this forum to discredit the reputation of the Group. Again the Vegas VIP Lounge would like to stress that the activities which took place were unlike anything it has experienced before, and therefore do not fall into conventional categories of bonus abuse or fraud or scamming.

Something is still not clear. If they were "scammers" as you put it, why did pay them, why did you not expose them and defend your position in public?

 

[wolfman]

The casino group however cannot release further details relating to this case due to its implications for its partners and for the wider security of the Casino Group.

You can tell us which terms and conditions they broke.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Fire

When a fire is out of control, Gasoline is NOT the best remedy!

"Unlike anything seen before" but neither "fraud, bonus abuse or scamming", I can't see anything wrong with that! As far as I was aware, playing without the use of these three sins was legitimate, saying otherwise simply implies that players are not allowed to win "too much".

As for the idea that releasing more detail will damage Vegas Partners, well, it's too late for that now!
Releasing more detail will only serve to sway opinion that perhaps these players WERE indeed scamming, but not in the traditional sense. With no detail, and no accusations of fraud, new players can have absolutely no idea as to whether what they are doing is "legitimate", or could lead to them being in a "heads we win, tails you lose" situation with their wagering. There are so many other MG casinos out there that ONLY discriminate against fraud, and scamming, and innocent players will know that so long as they are genuine they will not be inconvenienced too much.

Allowing players to lose unchecked, but blocking them only when they win is extremely dangerous for the likes of compulsive gamblers who may be relying on the win to dig themselves out of a hole. This will serve to ensure that such a compulsive will be unable to dig themselves out and will come to the attention of the wider community, with the experience of non-payment the one that the anti lobby will sieze upon with great enthusiasm, just look at the ease with which Frist did such damage by playing on fears rather than fact - most who voted "yes" in the senate had probably had NO actual experience of online gaming but relied on what they read and were told.

 

[soflat]

It's pretty interesting. Apparently they did nothing wrong, so the casino is reluctantly paying them. You don't see a casino group admit to fraudulently withholding funds very often. I mean it is not like the casino is claiming they made a mistake or the players broke a rule or anything, they are just saying that they are paying.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Fraud

It's pretty interesting. Apparently they did nothing wrong, so the casino is reluctantly paying them. You don't see a casino group admit to fraudulently withholding funds very often. I mean it is not like the casino is claiming they made a mistake or the players broke a rule or anything, they are just saying that they are paying.

You still haven't; they are paying (reluctantly), but in the same breath are maintaining that they were in the right to take the initial action they did - and still believe so (..and presumably do the same in a similar situation).

All this is making me more and more interested in exactly what these players are supposed to have done that was neither fraud, bonus abuse, nor scamming. More interestingly, one player claims they did not even use a bonus to start with, and that whatever gaming they did on the slots was with entirely their own funds put at the mercy of the random nature of the game. Whatever their strategy was, they beat Microgaming slots so damn bad they got their winnings confiscated and account locked! The only POSSIBLE explanation I can think of is an obscure bug in the basic slot game engines that this innovative group have discovered, and then circulated through some form of organised internet community. Certainly this could cause damage if detailed, but could also be considered fraud (depending on the exact nature of the bug). The only explanation that does not involve a software bug or exploit is some form of leverage on the bonus, usually seen with Blackjack or Roulette play prior to grinding out a WR on allowed games. This is so well known in our circles that saying so will do no damage. Darren (Palace Group), said as much in a thread in their own dispute, detailing exactly that the player had deposited 75 for 75 bonus, placed 1 bet of 100 followed by one of 50 on Video Poker as the first two bets of play - and this is what was considered by them as "undesirable play". This at least tells new players what they are not expected to do with their sign-up offers.

 

[Vesuvio]

Therefore, although their accounts will be reopened and winnings paid, the Vegas VIP Lounge Casino reserves the right to take whatever actions it sees as necessary should any of these players display any further signs of engaging in exploitative playing activities.

The above is why this group must remain on the rogue list for the forseeable future. Claiming carte blanche to do whatever they like on the basis of "bonus abuse" (or "exploitative playing activities" - whatever you want to call it), when no terms and conditions have been broken, is rogue behaviour. This isn't an isolated incident as this group have deserved to be rogued for a considerable period of time. It's characteristic that instead of closing the accounts (which is perfectly acceptable - after paying - if they don't want particular players), the casino seem to want to keep them around so they have the chance of defrauding them at some point in the future.

 

[winbig]

Inquiring minds want to know...please tell us how playing slots can be considered BONUS ABUSE!

Or is there an actual PATERN to them that people have picked up on? IE: Non-Random IE2: RIGGED.

 

[1819]

While their actions the past few months have been extremely questionable, Im surprised theyve decided to refund the money they seized. It suggests theyre willing to start over with a new attitude, hopefully the one that earned them everyones respect and made them eCogra and CM members. Assuming they do actually refund the money seized, they should be taken off the rogue list.

willing to start over with a new attitude? since when is paying a winner a new attitude? if someone used some kinda software or had inside knowledge or whatever then thats different and they dont deserve to be paid. but since vegasvip isnt saying so, then we are led to believe they either a. had a great run of luck or b. "exploited" a "random" game without breaking any rules. to just say that someone "scammed" the casino is stupid. if the real reason is someone did figure out a pattern or tendency, and the casino doenst want to say so for fear of everyone catching on, well then shame on them for not having true random games. whatever the case may be they sure as hell shouldnt come off a rouge list just cause they pay the money. explanation first, then maybe some credibility will be restored.

 

[rabiddog]

Well I cant speak for anyone else who had problems with this group. I can only give my account. I did not play for a bonus. I also did not just play slots only. I did play some at number of different slots, both reel and video. But I also played blackjack and bacarrat. I think its probably more that I cashed out the same day I deposited. If playing for a bonus, I could see where a casino would accuse you of bonus abuse by cashing out the same day you deposit. But I wasn't playing for a bonus. I normally cash out on the same day I deposit, especially when Im ahead. I like to check the speed of cashouts at casino's I play. If they are slow, then I rarely play there anymore. Or if I have problems of some sort with a cashout, like continually asking for documents even after I sent them in. Just a stall effort. Cash outs say a ton about a casino's ethical side.

I for one am happy the group paid. And Im more than willing to let this die and the casino get on the road to building their credability back, it's probably going to take a while and some effort. But Im sure as long as they were Accredited here they should be able to work it out. I dont think they can afford to have anymore complaints filed against them, that would not help at all.

They did send me a crappy little email today stating they have paid my winnings and re-opened my account. But made it sound like they did it very relunctantly by making this statement "criticism from the wider gaming
community has prompted Old Samurai Casino to reappraise its recent
actions." Then also accused me of exploitative and abusive playing activity. The email sounded kinda like they were being made to pay winnings so they were going to get one last shot in and make it look like they were doing it out of the kindness of their heart, but we're going to accuse you anyhow.

I have the email saved in case I need it for any reason in the future.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Innocents caught up?

It is possible you were an innocent caught up in something big, and you just happened to play a similar pattern. Many players with fraud in mind often go for the quick exit, and this is why the first withdrawal, and it's handling, can be such a pain. Given this, I don't see why casinos cannot accept that it is no longer JUST fraudulent players that will make their first cash-out at the first opportunity. I do this myself now, as it separates the truth from the hype and promises of "easy cash-ins" that all casinos offer (they are hardly likely to post "if you think depositing is not easy, just wait till you try to cash-in").

If you deposited, claimed no bonus, but just played around for the day and cashed in to see what the service was like, I fail to see why you were tangled up in the first place. They must think you did something else far more sinister, perhaps some commonality in registration details or referral portal (yes, they DO record this, & it is also in the registry under the casino's main key as "cookie = ??????")

 

[Mousey]

.....

Unfortunately, over the past six months the Vegas VIP Lounge group has endured a number of attacks by “scammers” that abused the casino and subsequently used this forum to discredit the reputation of the Group. Again the Vegas VIP Lounge would like to stress that the activities which took place were unlike anything it has experienced before, and therefore do not fall into conventional categories of “bonus abuse” or “fraud” or “scamming”.

I appreciate that you have come here to 'clarify' matters for us, but I'm just an ordinary player who finds all this very disturbing. I think that you must find an appropriate word somewhere in the dictionary that describes these 'scammers'.

Scam

Pronunciation

Rhymes: -æm

[edit] Noun
scam

Fraudulent deal. Business plan intended to defraud.
That marketing scheme looks like a scam to me.

[edit] Verb
To defraud or embezzle.
They tried to scam her out of her savings.
Retrieved from "http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scam"

..... 'scammers' still seems to be the wrong word as players who defraud the casino should not be paid.

unlike anything it has experienced before

If what they have done is so unique that there is no common word for it, I think we're all in trouble.

And I'm one of these players that casinos don't like.... I cash out when I win. I may play 15 minutes and cash out, I may play 2 hours (yeah right), I may play off and on a few minutes at time over 2 days. I may deposit again the next day, or the next week, or never. It's rare that I leave money in a casino account for more than a day.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Gambler

As a scientist by trade, I will not likely rest till I find out what the hell happened that was neither Fraud, bonus abuse, nor a scam.

There are clues, suggestions, lines of possible research, but only the industry knows at present. Previously, the industry has put forward arguments as to why the exact details of a fraud must remain a secret, mainly that it prevents said fraudsters from benefiting from inside information to launch a modified, and far better, attack.

The fact this is also "inventive" and something "not seen before" rules out the traditional forms of bonus abuse, and there are many playing styles that this seems to cover nowdays.

One case does come to mind that may help, and that is affiliate fraud, especially in the case where the casino pays a bounty to an affiliate for getting a new player to register and deposit (irrespective of that player losing or winning). In a few cases, the bounty is greater than the players first deposit, and if player and afiliate were in together, a scam is possible with no bonus, no manipulations etc.
This could even be carried out with a large number of players making relatively small deposits having come through an affiliate link, and then playing nominally and withdrawing without the usual bonus restrictions, this would be incredibly lucrative, but is hardly innovative as it has been tried several times before, with one attempt documented on this forum, bragged about, and not paid. The group affected has now amended it's affiliate scheme to put a stop to it. Under this scenario, a player who deposits, plays a bit, and cashes out the same day, and while this is all going on, is going to be immediately snared by the investigation if their sign-up happened through one of the affiliate portals under investigation.

Bent portals are normally the ones that incessantly spam us, as with the Fortune Lounge issue last year, and at the time the casinos seemed not too concerned with shutting down such portals. Perhaps , if this is part of this issue, they will do more about rogue affiliates if only for their OWN potential protection. Who knows which spammy B*** affiliate will turn to something else if they are allowed to get away with it.

 

[Ferretktf]

One case does come to mind that may help, and that is affiliate fraud... In a few cases, the bounty is greater than the players first deposit, and if player and afiliate were in together, a scam is possible with no bonus, no manipulations etc.

This is definately not the case for me (I was one of those locked out without winnings) as most (if not all) of the Casinos in this group that I played were accessed directly from the Casino site and not through an affiliate.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Narrows the field.

This is definately not the case for me (I was one of those locked out without winnings) as most (if not all) of the Casinos in this group that I played were accessed directly from the Casino site and not through an affiliate.

This narrows the field then, and now the fact that it seems bonuses were not the issue points to something very sinister going on.
Last night I perused the PWC figures for a couple of casinos, simply because I recall something odd a couple of months ago at Challenge, which shows the latest figures when you log on.
It seems that the numbers for slots has been showing some HUGE variations about the norm, beyond the values that I have come to expect, which are from the low 90's% to a tad over 100%, this probably with the bigger hits and/or progressive payouts. The striking variation is all the more worrying because these are monthly means for ALL play at the casino, and seem to back up what has been posted recently, that is that the slots just sucked and sucked without mercy before October, and then after the US players got booted the slots went "mental" and started paying out. This was one of the conspiracy theories that were mostly laughed off, and I remember posting that we will see when the PWC figures come out.
Well, they're out now!

I'll need to have a closer look rather than just a random sampling of half a dozen. Further, what about those RTG outfits similarly maligned with NO audited figures. Were we all being shafted?

I will be back with some hard figures!

 

[MadMat]

This is getting silly now. You are barking up the wrong tree

I'm going to point out here that I'm a fairly succesful online poker player, with a 5 figure bankroll. (this isn't intended as a brag, just a fact)

Why would I bother trying to rip off Vegas VIP for a paltry 75 ?

The amount of time and effort I've expended on this little episode spent instead playing poker would have probably earnt me far more than that!

All I did was blew off some steam playing slots after a crappy night at the tables!

Mat

 

[vinylweatherman]

Put that way

This is getting silly now. You are barking up the wrong tree

I'm going to point out here that I'm a fairly succesful online poker player, with a 5 figure bankroll. (this isn't intended as a brag, just a fact)

Why would I bother trying to rip off Vegas VIP for a paltry 75 ?

The amount of time and effort I've expended on this little episode spent instead playing poker would have probably earnt me far more than that!

All I did was blew off some steam playing slots after a crappy night at the tables!

Mat

Put that way, no. You wouldn't put all that effort in for a measly 75, but at the beginning of this thread you wrote of having used the same "system" at other MG casinos with no trouble!
I can't see how blowing off steam on slots can get an account locked, but some sort of organised "system" possibly would if it involved the casino believing that "cheating" was going on.

It is the Vegas rep that made this interesting by seeming to admit that no player had actually abused a bonus, committed any sort of fraud, and even that no scam (in the normal sense) was taking place. Whatever DID take place, has sent shockwaves through the reputable end of the industry, and is a strong indication that SOME kind of "scam" took place, but in such a way that loads of innocent players got caught up, compounded by the poor way the casino then dealt with the issues!

I can understand that recovery of a mere 75 is not the main issue. It is a matter of principle that the casino pays winnings when due, irrespective of how much "clout" the player is able to bring to bear.

I may be barking up the wrong tree, but this means there must be a "right" tree to be barking up?!

 

[BBKPoker]

bump.

They have ignored a few emails of mine for the last three weeks.

Someone needs to light a fire under their a**.

 

[eeeee]

bump.

They have ignored a few emails of mine for the last three weeks.

Someone needs to light a fire under their a**.

AFAIK, all the players addressed by the hideous VegasVIP message have been begrudgingly paid, and not through any group effort. First their deposits, and later, their winnings too.

What haven't you been paid? What was the time period? Which casino?

 

[saternj]

still not paid

I won quite a bit and I haven't been paid and they aren't returning my emails. I am going to try to email their rep here now.

 

[rabiddog]

Forget about the rep. If you have a legitimate complaint go straight to eCogra if the casino will not return your emails in a timely manner.

I had a Fortune Lounge casino close my account for no reason. I emailed them and they replied and stated suspicious activity. What I won a small amount and that suspicious activity? Im not sure exactly what they thought was suspicious and they never told me. Anyhow, I replied back to them that I would be filing a complaint with eCogra and a PAB with this site, I also refered them to this message board and the complaints about the Vegas Affiliates group. They responded in less than a day saying they would be reopening my account. They just asked for verification documents. I had already sent documents in to another Fortune Casino, but obliged them and sent the same exact documents in again. They replied back that the documents were not clear and asked for color documents. I thought that was rediculus, but once I made a set of color I could really tell the difference in quality. So I sent in the color and they reopened my account.

 

[eeeee]

I won quite a bit and I haven't been paid and they aren't returning my emails. I am going to try to email their rep here now.

Good luck addressing the rep. Vegas VIP was rogued last month. Your best bet may be ecogra or PAB. Good luck again.