A Vegas VIP Lounge Statement Regarding The Recent Dispute Over Payment of Winnings

[VegasVIP Lounge]

The Vegas VIP Lounge would like to express its sincerest regret over a recent dispute that has arisen between the Casino Group and a number of players that are known to have been partaking in what can only be described as exploitative and abusive playing activities.

Following an in-depth investigation of this case, the Vegas VIP Lounge initially took the decision to lock the offending player's accounts and refund their initial deposits.

Although the Vegas VIP Lounge Group knows that this was the correct and just response to the actions of the players in question, criticism from the wider gaming community has prompted it to reappraise its recent actions. In turn the Vegas VIP Lounge has decided to pay the offending players their "winnings" (payments will be processed by 9 pm GMT on 07/12/06). The Vegas VIP Lounge would like to emphasise that the circumstances relating to this case are quite different from any other that it has encountered before. The players involved in these illegitimate playing activities have been both highly organised and inventive in their methods. Therefore, although their accounts will be reopened and winnings paid, the Vegas VIP Lounge Casino reserves the right to take whatever actions it sees as necessary should any of these players display any further signs of engaging in exploitative playing activities.

 

[mucullus]

If Vegas VIP Lounge had disclosed some more details on the circumstances of these case the gaming community may have been able to understand the casinos' judgement.

With the information presented in several threads and the concurrent lack of communication by this group of casinos how could anyone come to the conclusion that VVL took the "correct and just" action?

With all due respect, your statement is bad crisis PR.

 

[MadMat]

I played the same "system" on over a dozen mg Casinos through november. all but one paid me out when I won. (and I didn't win everywhere)

And I fail to see how playing the games you offer on the software you provide can be deemed exploitative abusive play!

Feel free to close my accounts, nothing in the world would entice me to redeposit at any of your casinos.

Mat

 

[soflat]

I played the same "system" on over a dozen mg Casinos through november. all but one paid me out when I won. (and I didn't win everywhere)

What system were you playing?

 

[MadMat]

What system were you playing?

LOL I've worked out a way to profit from slots only bonuses, and you want me to post it on here for everyone!

do your own homework

Mat

 

[soflat]

LOL. I didn't know this involved some super secret winning slot system. Good luck.

 

[MadMat]

LOL. I didn't know this involved some super secret winning slot system. Good luck.

I'd happily sell "MadMats Super Secret Beat the Online Slots System" for $100 to anyone who wants a copy!

If I sell enough copies the system will have worked

Mat

 

[vinylweatherman]

Interesting

So, now even playing slots with a 5% house edge on a bonus with 20x WR AND a requirement to exit with D+2xB at the end can not only be beaten, but in an exploitative manner.
Clearly, playing slots on a slots only bonus is now bonus abuse (the more common term for exploitative play). This amounts to saying players are not permitted to even TRY to win with the sign-up bonus.
This is often the WHOLE DAMN POINT of signing up, you see the terms, and feel you have at least a fair chance of winning enough to make it worth while placing your own funds at risk. This is NOT a "free chip" players deposited their own funds as well, and these were most certainly at risk.

It would seem that Vegas Affiliates and players are suggesting that the explotation was to play "certain specific slot games", and in a "certain manner".
WTF, press "spin"!!! It's bloody RANDOM, and with a house edge of 5%!
The only strategy on slots is to press "spin". We have been told there are NO PATTERNS, NO NON-RANDOM STRATEGIES/CYCLES in these slots. Yet not only do these players claim to have a winning slots system, the damn casino has admitted it is TRUE that "RANDOM" slot games can be beaten, and have reignited a debate about the possibility of the online games being "RIGGED" by inadvertantly suggesting that, perhaps, maybe, in some way they are!

The only comparison to this affair is getting banned for playing and winning on a UK pub "Fruit Machine", games that are about as random as Newtonian mechanics and planetary orbits.

I am sure many other players will be interested, and I suspect the endorsement of the casino industry will make these players a tidy sum and create a big headache for the industry.
If this turns out to be a software bug it will be too funny It takes MG forever to fix these!

 

[vinylweatherman]

System

I'd happily sell "MadMats Super Secret Beat the Online Slots System" for $100 to anyone who wants a copy!

If I sell enough copies the system will have worked

Mat

I think I know the system, but am utterly gobsmacked that it actually WORKS, because it really shouldn't unless the games are merely pseudorandom rather than fully random.

My own ideas are based on looking for the way the scatters fall in the free spin slots to predict bonus rounds, and also the way that the "hotness" and "coldness" of some slots varies with coin size and sometimes coins per line. It seems to alter a scatter dropping cycle that they don't have because they are random

I tried such an idea last week on Munchkins, and did not manage to turn £50 into £1000 by betting into, and out of, various scatter fall patterns. I didn't bet progressively in certain situations as this could not work due to the random nature of the game. In the end I didn't withdraw £1000 after deciding that enough was enough, and luck still played a huge part in all this.
Luckily, the casino had instant Neteller payments, so I DIDN'T HAVE TO WAIT



Ps - That WAS the punchline - nothing more to come!

 

[MadMat]

Yet not only do these players claim to have a winning slots system

I think your sarcasm detector might be broken matey . . . .

 

[soflat]

Clearly, playing slots on a slots only bonus is now bonus abuse (the more common term for exploitative play). This amounts to saying players are not permitted to even TRY to win with the sign-up bonus.

That's why good little players like me always try to lose when we play slot bonuses. Then the casino can't blame us if we happen to win.

The player in this case was clearly trying to win and not even hiding his intentions.

 

[terrellk11]

That's why good little players like me always try to lose when we play slot bonuses. Then the casino can't blame us if we happen to win.

The player in this case was clearly trying to win and not even hiding his intentions.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Sarcasm

I think your sarcasm detector might be broken matey . . . .

It's the industry that has put their big foot in it. There have been many cases of bogus slot systems being sold on the net, and casinos just laugh at people who come along thinking they can beat slots (as opposed to games like Blackjack) by using a system that does not involve tampering with the game itself. One player claims to have bet only $3 per spin, yet was still deemed to have been exploiting slots. Given that quite a few slots have the bet MINIMUM not too far below this because coin min is 25c this is a joke!

My tale was not sarcasm, I actually DID happen, but the casino accepted this as something that will happen on a random game, and whatever strategy I used made no difference to the outcome in the end, the slot was "s**t hot" that day, and I would have won whatever fiddlings I did with coins and lines.
For a casino group to elevate such types of system to the level of fraud and exploitative play either means the rep has mislead us in the explanation (missed out a few crucial facts), or has admitted that Microgaming slots at least CAN be consistently beaten by following set patterns of play. Their bonus has -EV on slots as a whole, so a normal run of luck should not have had this effect on them as they would always get it back in the end.
To cause worry, such a system must be capable of consistently beating the bonus more than not, and must mean that the slot payback is somehow affected by patterns of play or choice of games.

When I got banned from some Fruit Machine places I simply played the game with the buttons on the cabinet in front of me. I read the cycles to see whether the game was hot or cold, and chose feature games that had the best outcomes in the long run. Sometimes, although rarely, a software bug was involved, but often bans followed play that did NOT involve exploitation of such bugs.

However, I probably know more than you might think I do about beating bonuses by fair means or foul. If it is in the terms and conditions, then it is fair to at least try to win, and casinos should only be banning such players from FUTURE promotions if they are too skilfull, retrospective confiscation should NEVER be used unless a clear breach of terms has been committed, or the player has fraudulently obtained the promotion in the first place.

 

[kavaman]

What strikes me is that some of the payment of winnings were even without a bonus if im not wrong... Ok i understand that if a player joins into all these casinos barely meeting the wagering requirements, he "might" have a chance of winning something if he gets lucky, but bonus abuse. Cmon.. Slots 20x wr.

-kavaman

 

[fatihkur]

I have just received a reply from casino. They are not going to open my account with 5175 dollar in it. So here ,at the forum, their representative says one thing for the public and in private emails the casino says the opposite. May be that is because i won "too much". They will now pay 100 and 200 dollar winnings to some players just to keep situation quiet and they are not going to pay out the big winnings like mine. I have just sent an email to Ecogra. This casino lies all the time!

 

[BBKPoker]

Given the number of complaints, good riddance to this group. You deserve to be rogued. I thought it was suspect when they had tons of complaints a few months ago, then I thought it was peculiar when they stopped advertising on Meister, and now we know why. These guys seem to be out to lock and confiscate winnings wherever they arbitrarily feel like without listening to any kind of rationality or reason.

Hope they go out of business and 32red goes back to accepting US customers to replace them.

 

[Mousey]

.... The Vegas VIP Lounge would like to emphasise that the circumstances relating to this case are quite different from any other that it has encountered before. The players involved in these illegitimate playing activities have been both highly organised and inventive in their methods. Therefore, although their accounts will be reopened and winnings paid, the Vegas VIP Lounge Casino reserves the right to take whatever actions it sees as necessary should any of these players display any further signs of engaging in exploitative playing activities.

Dear me... now I'm dying of curiosity! "organized", "inventive", "illegitimate playing activities" (I do think the later should be spelled out in the T&C, don't you??) I see no mention of fraud (multiple accounts, etc.), nor of violation of T&C ... so... ummm... (and I know the casino rep won't tell us) I'm wondering just what the devil were these players doing that was so gosh darned awful ?? -- other than cashing out, that is.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Guilty of?

From reading the threads, it seems that a number of players are depositing, claiming the slots bonus, and spinning at mid to high bet levels on slots such as "Thunderstruck".

The rep claims this is an "illegitimate" playing method. Whether or not this was orgainsed, there is NO WAY that playing a slot at a bet available in the software is in any way "illegitimate". In one case, it seems that even $3 is seen as "illegitimate". Previously, grinding out bonuses with tiny bets are "illegitimate" methods of play - whatever next? what is this tiny window between 0.90c and $3 that will constitute "legitimate" play on slots?

"Organised" may simply mean that one of their affiliates did a damn good marketing job, and they should be grateful that so many players tried them out. Given that the first ever withdrawals were denied, the players were given NO OPPORTUNITY to show continuing loyalty by depositing in further weeks.

Other than this, it is possible the rep has issued a "smokescreen" statement in the hope that it will vindicate their case, and it has spectacularly backfired as they have left out any clue to what they mean other than the fact these players played slots, with a slots bonus, and had one of the bigger wins that come along every so often, but were unlucky enough that it came along while playing the new player bonus.
The next stage is to have a list of excluded slots for slots bonuses (don't laugh, some casinos have!), and say everyone must play slots like Moonshine or Harveys that are more predictable in that they rarely give out the big hits but more of the small ones, thus giving no real chance of meeting 20xWR AND being ahead by 1x Bonus.

 

[rabiddog]

issued a "smokescreen" statement in the hope that it will vindicate their case,

I think you are probably correct here. I mean come on, if illegitemate playing activities were used, wouldn't that be a perfect reason to keep the money? Instead this group got caught itself using illegitemate business practices by eCogra and now they are trying to justify it with an accusation. Just pay people what you owe them and maybe somewhere down the road you can earn back the trust of the online community and work your way off the Casino Miester Rogue list. But after what this casino group has done, they will have to work hard to earn that trust back. And posting a statement like that instead of owning up to bad business procedure is NOT a good start. j

I also want to add, there is no such thing as +EV on slots in the long run. HA is just way too high. You may get lucky and have a decent run, like I made $300 on Loaded playing a little here and there, but all it was is luck. Like vinylweatherman said I think it was, "You just hit the spin button". What kind of strategy is that. Plus, some of us never even played for a bonus.

 

[thelawnet]

From reading the threads, it seems that a number of players are depositing, claiming the slots bonus, and spinning at mid to high bet levels on slots such as "Thunderstruck".

The rep claims this is an "illegitimate" playing method. Whether or not this was orgainsed, there is NO WAY that playing a slot at a bet available in the software is in any way "illegitimate".

That appears to be the case..... Basically they offered people bonuses to encourage them to deposit and lose, but got upset when they didn't spend hours grinding away against the house edge, and in some cases even one.

Apparently this is 'illegitimate'.



Perhaps they should learn that if they want to offer bonuses they should offer them to loyal players, and if they don't offer bonuses they won't have any problems, and above all that casinos have to pay the winners - the deposit button isn't a 'donate' button.

 

[GrandMaster]

The Vegas VIP Lounge would like to emphasise that the circumstances relating to this case are quite different from any other that it has encountered before. The players involved in these illegitimate playing activities have been both highly organised and inventive in their methods. Therefore, although their accounts will be reopened and winnings paid, the Vegas VIP Lounge Casino reserves the right to take whatever actions it sees as necessary should any of these players display any further signs of engaging in exploitative playing activities.

Please share with us what constitutes illegitimate or exploitative playing activities. If the players committed fraud, then they should not be paid, but if stayed within the T&C, then they should have been paid and then have their accounts closed. If they found a genuine loophole in the T&C, and weren't just too lucky for the casino management's liking, then the person responsible for the T&C should be sacked and a competent person hired.

 

[rabiddog]

the deposit button isn't a 'donate' button.

 

[tim5ny]

Lies, Lies, Lies!!! How the mighty have fallen! It's a sad commentary for online gambling when even Microgaming casinos are pulling this crap. Are any/all of these players from the U.S. ?

 

[UKDafoe]

While their actions the past few months have been extremely questionable, Im surprised theyve decided to refund the money they seized. It suggests theyre willing to start over with a new attitude, hopefully the one that earned them everyones respect and made them eCogra and CM members. Assuming they do actually refund the money seized, they should be taken off the rogue list.

 

[VegasVIP Lounge]

A Further Statement From The Vegas VIP Lounge Group

The Vegas VIP Lounge Group understands the concern of the wider gaming community over its use of ambiguous language in referring to this group of players activities as illegitimate, exploitative and abusive. The casino group however cannot release further details relating to this case due to its implications for its partners and for the wider security of the Casino Group. The Vegas VIP Lounge would like to once again emphasize that it pays millions of winners every year without delay or hassle. It is a fact that wherever the Casino Group has made a genuine error, it has always done all that it can to compensate the players in question.

Unfortunately, over the past six months the Vegas VIP Lounge group has endured a number of attacks by scammers that abused the casino and subsequently used this forum to discredit the reputation of the Group. Again the Vegas VIP Lounge would like to stress that the activities which took place were unlike anything it has experienced before, and therefore do not fall into conventional categories of bonus abuse or fraud or scamming.