is it just me or is my tin foil hat picking up a trend here

[Azzurri]

I think the debate is a healthy one regardless of what side of the fence you're on. I don't think it's necessary for some meisters to sarcastically tease other posters, as everyone is entitled to an opinion, or to share their thoughts and experiences. That is the general idea behind forums.

I think we would all like to think no funny business, or corruption is involved when it comes to the software. However, just as it may seem naive to some, that players become suspicious, perhaps it is just as naive to believe it is all entirely above board, because those who provide the software, and distribute it, tell us it is.

The change I've noticed with MG, has nothing to do with being on a losing streak, as I have continued to win and hit features, however the size of the wins have drastically reduced, when compared to the same hits, and bet sizes, as approximately 4-6 months ago. My playing habits haven't changed, hence I made comments regarding my experiences, whether crazy sounding or not.

If the comment made by someone within this thread, regarding MG funding ecogra, is true, then surely that's a huge conflict of interest. It sounds too crazy to be true, as surely it's not a great message to be sending the end client. I'm not saying anything untoward is occurring, but if true, surely every player has a slight concern that the provider themselves have created and funded the very organisation who's job it is to police and enforce fair play from that provider. Very confusing.

 

[243 lines=daft]

Does it need to be so hard to find evidence? Can't MG just release evidence that would put all players minds at ease.

The only statements I've seen from Microgaming on the issues of how their slots run relate to the RNG, pointing out that it is a tried and tested clean RNG.

That doesn't address any of the real issues though. The RNG can be clean but how that reflects in the player's experience is another matter.
It seems so hard to have any kind of discussion about this without people swooping down and assuming

a- Randomness is being questioned (I never have disputed that MGS use a clean RNG)
b- Anyone discussing the issue is on a losing streak (I'm not! I'm down net at 32Red but up at the other Microgaming casinos I play at)

Microgaming could make things much clearer by being transparent about how their slots work.
I don't know why they don't, beyond the fact that nobody in positions of relative power ever seems to ask them.

The fact that results are tested by ECogra doesn't address the issues either. ECogra engage in outcome based testing rather than examining source code which to my mind is a bit like trying to work out what someone had to eat by examining their burps.

 

[mrmark21]

Free play cannot be used as evidence at least not IMO. Which is a shame because I was so ready and hoping that I accepted it at first glance. But IMO that just cant be seen as evidence. Thanks for trying though Dunover and Gagamel

If the comment made by someone within this thread, regarding MG funding ecogra, is true, then surely that's a huge conflict of interest. It sounds too crazy to be true, as surely it's not a great message to be sending the end client. I'm not saying anything untoward is occurring, but if true, surely every player has a slight concern that the provider themselves have created and funded the very organisation who's job it is to police and enforce fair play from that provider. Very confusing.

But that is true (according to what I've read about MG outside this forum) and part of the reason I'm so confused about these people that continually ignore that little piece of information and continue to base their decision purely on hearsay. I think ignorance is bliss.


P.s. Would you like me to post the article?

 

[brianmon]

AFAIK eCogra only test 3 slot games randomly chosen.

if you click on their logo on any of the sites which display it. they give a percentage payout report for the casino and 3 certificates of randomness but for only Blackjack, roulette and video poker. they don't appear to issue one for slots !!

 

[dunover]

AFAIK eCogra only test 3 slot games randomly chosen.

if you click on their logo on any of the sites which display it. they give a percentage payout report for the casino and 3 certificates of randomness but for only Blackjack, roulette and video poker. they don't appear to issue one for slots !!

The games/slots per se aren't tested, but the RNG that controls the outcomes. Independently.

 

[dunover]

The only statements I've seen from Microgaming on the issues of how their slots run relate to the RNG, pointing out that it is a tried and tested clean RNG.

That doesn't address any of the real issues though. The RNG can be clean but how that reflects in the player's experience is another matter.
It seems so hard to have any kind of discussion about this without people swooping down and assuming

a- Randomness is being questioned (I never have disputed that MGS use a clean RNG)
b- Anyone discussing the issue is on a losing streak (I'm not! I'm down net at 32Red but up at the other Microgaming casinos I play at)

Microgaming could make things much clearer by being transparent about how their slots work.
I don't know why they don't, beyond the fact that nobody in positions of relative power ever seems to ask them.

The fact that results are tested by ECogra doesn't address the issues either. ECogra engage in outcome based testing rather than examining source code which to my mind is a bit like trying to work out what someone had to eat by examining their burps.

It's the source code which creates the outcomes indirectly via the RNG and the reels maps in the source code. If the outcomes are kosher, it follows the source code is too. I don't see the need to differentiate.

 

[243 lines=daft]

If the outcomes are kosher, it follows the source code is too.

The outcomes can demonstrate that the RNG is producing random results and that the RTP is as it should be.

There are two concerns that they don't necessarily address.

1 - Juicing. i.e. Is a slot mapping the results of the RNG to a set of outcomes that increase the 'excitement' of the experience for the player?
Here's a simplified example of what I mean

Let's say you have an RNG that cleanly produces a number between one and nine inclusive.
You could map that to the following set of outcomes

9 pays 9 pounds
8 pays 8 pounds
7 pays 7 pounds
6 pays 6 pounds
5 pays 5 pounds
4 pays 4 pounds
3 pays 3 pounds
2 pays 2 pounds
1 pays 1 pound

This pays an average of 5 pounds across the nine results and is what one might expect.
But what if that number from 1-9 was mapped to this

9 pays 9 pounds
8 pays 9 pounds
7 pays 8 pounds
6 pays 5 pounds
5 pays 5 pounds
4 pays 5 pounds
3 pays 2 pounds
2 pays 1 pounds
1 pays 1 pound

This would give a much more exciting experience to the player by increasing the incidence of top line hitting
but would still average out at 5 pounds across all the nine results. And the RNG could still be clean as a whistle.

2 - Fixed RTP. This would be impossible for an outcome based test to spot, because it is delivering the expected results (guaranteed, not theoretical). So if eg the house was down and some support/resistance bounce point was triggered then the RNG could map to a set of player outcomes that would feature less top lines and more weak results, still with

(a)a totally clean RNG and
(b)all paylines being hittable (albeit in greater or lesser proportions) and
(c)an overall RTP matching player expectation

until the running RTP moved back to a point closer to the Fixed RTP level.

Both of these are simplified speculative examples, but in theory both juicing and RTP Fixing could exist alongside clean RNGs, reel strips and outcome based testing.

So what would be nice would be some cold hard facts to satisfy all of us naturally inquisitive paying customers.
And on that note, please Mark do post the article you mentioned.

 

[mrmark21]

Here it is...

Online Casinos Rigged?

Online slot players grow louder echoing similarity of questions, are online casinos rigged?

If you’d asked me this question pre UIGEA (Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act) you’d have received the following reply: - I’ve gambled at numerous Microgaming casino since 1997 and I’m 99.999% Microgaming online casinos are not rigged. Now in December 2010 I’m not so sure.

Yet another casino player posts their discord about lack of game fairness with online casino gambling. Eventually you have to wake up and smell the coffee. Time to Quit Online Casino Gambling. I remember in 2003 Microgaming releasing Thunderstruck, its first 5 reel 9 pay-line free spin bonus slot machine. It was the month MGS also released its casino games platform upgrade from Thumper to Viper.

Microgaming in early 2010 upgraded Viper to wide screen. However many issues followed. With numerous updates to core features, slots players are now wondering if these updates have included the alterting or weighting of slot reels & or their return to player percentages.

NB – All Microgaming casinos had their casino games audited on a monthly basis by PriceWaterhouseCoopers until eCOGRA opened up shop in 2003. From that point forward eCOGRA conducted all MGS casino game audits. It should be noted, eCOGRA was established and funded by Microgaming who even to this day has a Microgaming employee sitting on the eCOGRA Non Executive Board.

Granted I played online casinos a lot back then, maybe my average of hitting 2 complete sets of scattered Thunderstruck rams per month was not everyone’s average hit ratio. But since the UIGEA got dropped into our laps in late 2006, wins like this have been getting far less frequent as each year passes.

Albeit Microgaming has increased its release of bonus slots with free games and bonus feature games. To the point where there are over 250 of the aussie style pokies games available at casinos powered by MGS. Three new slot games per month are now being released on average. More bonus slots, with less people playing due to the UIGEA, means less money per slot machine being dropped.

In layman terms, your chances of winning are decreased. Although the overall RTP (return to player) percentages may be set to 95% for each slot, these may not have changed. However reiterating with less money going into each slot machine the chances of getting a decent win is also decreased.

Microgaming has always claimed their RTP is set in stone. That is, once the games goes live neither the casino operator nor MGS can alter or change the return to player percentage pay-out. However with more and more casino software being brought into contention about less than fair slots game play, one surely has to consider that Microgaming may possibly be tweaking their casino games.

Looking at this from a hypothetical stand point, fact is Microgaming (like most casino software providers) receive royalties or in blunt terms, kick back percentages on all money deposited through each licensees online casino. With the UIGEA profits would have taken a huge decline. It would not seem unreasonable for players to adopt the belief when their slots game play has commenced going South and correlating this back to the commencement of the UIGEA.

I can’t prove either way if Micrgaming casino software or if all online casinos are rigged. However I can say, like so many other players I too used to get a decent run of play time with a $100 deposit. However these days I can drop $1,000US in less than 3 hours and get totally sucked dry, with little or no chance of even peaking over my initial deposit balance. Add this same scenario to mimic other online slot players experiences and maybe it is time to quit online casino gambling.

NB – Unlike land based casinos, online casinos only supply the average pay-out percentage of their combined slot machines each month. In my opinion each Microgaming online casino should supply the RTP on each slot machine.

Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

 

[brianmon]

Of course, it could be all down to MG buying a secondhand RNG from NetEnt..

I did notice there was a Gymp-master-6000 for sale on eBay.

 

[KasinoKing]

I don't want to add any fuel to any fires, but I do have to point out something which I find a little annoying about these conversations;

What does a RNG do? It produces a random number. That's all it does. Just a number, nothing else.
It's what the game's software does with that number that you are talking about.
The RNG could be the most fairest in the universe, but the software of the game could (putting it very simply) be programmed in certain circumstances to ignore a number which corresponds to a winning result and replace it with a new number until it makes a losing result.

A software provider could have say 100 games all running off the same 100% true RNG, but still half of their games COULD be totally fair, while the other half COULD be totally rigged.

So when you are are talking about the fairness of a game, it should only be the game's software you are talking about, not the RNG.

KK

 

[243 lines=daft]

So in a state of slight frustration at the way these threads always seem to end with condescension/sarcasm and picking over semantics, I logged into an MGS casino to ease down the tension with a few spins.

And to be fair to Microgaming, within a couple of minutes my first five scatters of 2014 drops in.
Boom, a 500 quid boost for the holidays. Thank you mister officer

It changes nothing and imo the general play still feels manifestly different to early 2013, but I'm going to put the tin foil cap in the cupboard for a few days and wish you all a Happy Easter

 

[Slotster!]

In layman terms, your chances of winning are decreased. Although the overall RTP (return to player) percentages may be set to 95% for each slot, these may not have changed. However reiterating with less money going into each slot machine the chances of getting a decent win is also decreased.

They've had an absolute nightmare there.

Taken two different things, mixed them together and come up with a donkey. On a unicycle.

So MG software monitors ALL deposits and bets across ALL it's slots at ALL times and then pays out a 95% RTP across ALL its games. In real time.

I re-iterate. You are all bonkers.

 

[Azzurri]

Nice hit! First 5 scatters for 2014? You must be doing alright then? I'm still waiting for my first 5 scatters ever! I've just convinced myself all the screenshots on here are Photoshopped, and the mythical beast never really existed.

 

[243 lines=daft]

Nice hit! First 5 scatters for 2014? You must be doing alright then? I'm still waiting for my first 5 scatters ever! I've just convinced myself all the screenshots on here are Photoshopped, and the mythical beast never really existed.

Yeah they do really happen I promise (though they needed to actually happen for me to believe in them lol).

I've had a good few (all at different groups but especially Ladbrokes) over the last few years, and have had it happen twice in free spins which is just the biggest buzz, especially as both times they came in at the tail end of an otherwise dead free spins round and suddenly boom ...beautiful chaos and a stuffed account.

 

[Azzurri]

Good on you mate.

If I can't hit them, at least it's nice to know someone is.

Cash out and enjoy.

 

[mrmark21]

So in a state of slight frustration at the way these threads always seem to end with condescension/sarcasm and picking over semantics, I logged into an MGS casino to ease down the tension with a few spins.

And to be fair to Microgaming, within a couple of minutes my first five scatters of 2014 drops in.
Boom, a 500 quid boost for the holidays. Thank you mister officer

It changes nothing and imo the general play still feels manifestly different to early 2013, but I'm going to put the tin foil cap in the cupboard for a few days and wish you all a Happy Easter

Wow! Congrats So how long did it take you to hit that?

 

[243 lines=daft]

Wow! Congrats So how long did it take you to hit that?

Two minutes max.... easy peasy (except for the fact it came off the back of a five month drought of big hits..)

But of course being a gambler I'd rather gloss over the dead patches and just enjoy the buzz and a

 

[mrmark21]

Two minutes max.... easy peasy (except for the fact it came off the back of a five month drought of big hits..)

But of course being a gambler I'd rather gloss over the dead patches and just enjoy the buzz and a

I've been playing for two years and have NEVER seen five scatters I've found it virtually impossible to hit four BUT maybe I could get it after my terrible run of luck. I'm too scared to find out

Enjoy your win

 

[Full tilt]

I was going to put the tin foil hat on and say that the slots always tighten up every 4 th Friday when my wages go in!

In my view it's just hitting the right slot at the right time, pure luck. The last two weekends I have managed to turn a £40 deposit into £400 and £900 respectively at 32 Red just playing MG slots; Isis has been very kind to me with one lot of free spins paying £600 alone at 50p a spin! My favourite for the last 6 months, TS 2 seems to have dried up on me lately so I'll give that a miss for a while.

I've had periods where I can't seem to hit a barn door then sessions where I seem to hit every slot I play so overall things seem fair to me.

 

[whodatrec]

Anyone who belive the nonsense casinos are saying about it being random are just plain stupid. Ive won mulitple times so im not saying its impossible to win. But these slots are not truly random as in; hit spin and random symbols appear. They are either compensated or "rigged" in some way or another. Because ALWAYS after cashing out, that casino goes dead.

 

[dunover]

Anyone who belive the nonsense casinos are saying about it being random are just plain stupid. Ive won mulitple times so im not saying its impossible to win. But these slots are not truly random as in; hit spin and random symbols appear. They are either compensated or "rigged" in some way or another. Because ALWAYS after cashing out, that casino goes dead.

If you truly believe that, one must wonder why you ever deposit a cent at any casino.

As for your cashing-out, this stands to reason. You cannot perpetually be on the RTP up-curve, so when you've just cashed out you must have been on it just prior to cashing out, so there is a high likelihood you'll then go on a down-curve. This is normal.

 

[jshort]

[/

If you truly believe that, one must wonder why you ever deposit a cent at any casino.

As for your cashing-out, this stands to reason. You cannot perpetually be on the RTP up-curve, so when you've just cashed out you must have been on it just prior to cashing out, so there is a high likelihood you'll then go on a down-curve. This is normal.

See Gambler's Fallacy;

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Unless its rigged, the odds of you going on the down-curve are just as likely regardless of what your previous success history has been.

 

[dunover]

[/

See Gambler's Fallacy;

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Unless its rigged, the odds of you going on the down-curve are just as likely regardless of what your previous success history has been.

I said 'high likelihood' because this is what happens usually. The only sure thing about luck is that it will change. As will your RTP as you continue playing. Nobody goes on winning and winning and winning indefinitely, the reel maps see to that. Unless these unrelated RNG picks went in your favour continuously at odds of billions to one against.

 

[chris87]

I said 'high likelihood' because this is what happens usually. The only sure thing about luck is that it will change. As will your RTP as you continue playing. Nobody goes on winning and winning and winning indefinitely, the reel maps see to that. Unless these unrelated RNG picks went in your favour continuously at odds of billions to one against.

A good point. Therefore what you're saying is that a losing streak will also end at some point too, so that overall the RTP is achieved (or near to it) The question is how long with that streak last I guess.

I don't want to reopen the debate but to try and avoid hitting the down curve I tend to switch to other casinos when I've had a decent win on MG, but then you hit the down curve on them anyway!!

 

[tinybettor]

Bloody oath these slots are tight as hell. I don't have any proof but I still have an inkling that these slots are compensated somehow. One day you can win on any slot and have dozens of screenies of nice hits like the casino had money to splurge. On the other spectrum you go months of daily deposits where you can't even get one single nice hit no matter how many deposits or slot-changing. I had a nice session last year getting the huge Playboy hits. In between those I got a nice 1000x bet on TFROL and heaps of good medium hits in between. Now I can't even get one win that comes close to the medium ones in endless deposits that eclipse those combined winnings. I still play these slots, in the hope I can be at the right time when there's money to payout.