What are your thoughts on tipping?

[vinylweatherman]

There is at least one restaurant here in town (fine dining) where the wait staff are paid well above minimum wage, and the owner pockets all the tips. I should not know this, employees sign a confidentiallty agreement.

Revenue Canada knows however, and the employees are not expected to pay taxes on non-existant tips. I suspect the owner doesn't declare all the cash tips either.

Here in Canada, we are expected to report all taxable income, which would include barter, such as I babysit your kids and your husband fixes my screen door. Both of us are expected to declare that.

How do they put a value on that.

If everybody really did declare absolutely everything, however minor, the tax office would go into meltdown.

If you pick up 5c someone dropped, do you have to declare that too?

 

[skiny]

I want to add...not all people know this. It would only be people who actually did this kind of work.

I wouldn't call it stealing, I would call the people who didn't tip assholes. I love when I see in yahoo the pictures that waitors/waitresses post of their receipts, that has an excuse for why they didn't tip. One comes to mind, the priest who wrote something like "I give God (some % I forget) why should I give you 15%"...A PRIEST wrote that!!!

I have never taken a taxi, (we start driving early in USA, I was 16 when I started) I don't understand why they get tipped? If they make minimum wage or more, why do they get tipped?

It's not stealing because I've never heard of people paying taxes on tips they expected to get. If they're paying taxes on it someone claimed it. Tips are not mandatory. At no time did the Canadian government add a 20% tip tax to your bill. If a person refuses to give a tip because they didn't like the service the tip should be removed from the bill and the only thing that will be taxed is the product and not the service. I have no idea what kind of scam some of these businesses are trying to pull but if an employer told me a customer didn't tip so I would have to cover it I'd tell him to go to hell when I stopped laughing. I think any employees that are being scammed like this should be having a closer look at the law because there is no law that says anyone has to leave a tip and I'm pretty sure any employer who is expecting their staff to foot the bill for customers who didn't feel gratuitous enough might need a little scrutinizing by the labour board because it's not a waitress's responsibility to leave the entire restaurant a tip when a customer doesn't feel like it. If you're paying tax on money you expected to get for any reason but never received you're giving away money for nothing. Income tax is based on income not numbers someone made up.

And this idea that my food cost less because everyone is expected to leave tips so the waitresses and waiters can be paid less per hour is ludicrous. Ontario has the highest minimum wage disparity in Canada between people who are and who are not in a position to receive gratuities. $1.35 less per hour. On a 40 hour week that's a gross arning of 54 dollars less. If a waitress receives a 15% tip on a single 15 dollar meal that's $2.25. If the money is left on the table like it should be and not taxed she's earned that 54 dollars back after serving less than 25 meals... That's single meals. A table usually has more than one person sitting at it. If each table has an average of 2 people that's less than 13 tables served. That 54 dollars less per week is earned back a single slow night. Even if people only tipped 10% and she only served 10 tables per night at 30 dollars per table that's still 150 dollars in tips after a 5 day week to cover the cost of the 54 dollars less in GROSS earnings and this IS the province with the highest minimum wage disparity in Canada.

I have no problem with people being tipped for good service and I'm happy to see people in any profession making as much money as they can but I have very little sympathy for people who decide to be waiters or waitresses instead of unskilled factory workers and then complain because they didn't make enough tips on any given night. The reality is that in Canada the difference in wages between unskilled factory workers and waitresses is very small and by the end of the week the waitress is probably earning more than the factory worker after tips are factored in so there's no reason at all that a restaurant can't pay a waitress minimum wage and stop expecting it's customers to pay some fixed percent of the bill which ends up being more than the extra cost of paying minimum wage. Paying waitresses less than minimum wage is just an excuse for another cash grab and it's disguised as a tip so people will feel guilty for not accepting it.

A tip is a gift. People shouldn't expect gifts.

As for taxes... you are in supposed to declare every penny you make. Years ago, a restaurant my ex worked was audited by Revenue Canada, and all servers had to declare 10% of sales as tips. At that time, an "average" tip was 12 - 15%, and now it's considered to be higher to be acceptable. End of year, a note was included with the T4 to indicate what your sales were.

Revenue Canada cannot tax people on undeclared cash tips. This is why tips should not be included on your bill. The government is not going to chase waitresses around to see how many times someone left 2 bucks in change on their tables. They will, however look at the year end books and see that 10% has been added to every bill as a standard tip. Tipping should never have become so expected that the government considers it a standard earning. It should never have come to the point where it is considered a portion of a person's wages. At some point in our history some greedy, selfish snobs decided they were going to turn their nose up to anyone who didn't give them a big enough gift and some how this attitude has caught on and trickled all the way down to every sector of the service industry. Gratuities have nothing to do with service anymore.

I think the next time someone buys a hand bag they really like they should give the cashier an extra 20% and see if she can somehow get it back to the poor old woman who took extra care when she stitched it together at minimum wage. Why should people in the service industry be the only ones getting paid extra when they do a good job?

 

[skiny]

How do they put a value on that.

If everybody really did declare absolutely everything, however minor, the tax office would go into meltdown.

If you pick up 5c someone dropped, do you have to declare that too?

I think "expected" is the wrong word. Nobody expects people to declare the 5 dollars grandma put in your birthday card. You are supposed to declare all earnings but realistically people only declare money that can be traced. If it's a thousand dollars for replacing your neighbour's roof the government would frown on you not claiming it. If it's 20 dollars for picking someone up on the way to work one week nobody cares.

I honestly don't the government wants millions of people submitting a lists of thousands of items at tax time ranging from 5 to 50 dollars where they managed to get a few bucks here and there from random sources.

 

[just play]

Skiny..again this conversation depends where you are from, or if you have indeed worked these kinds of jobs. The way you post you were brought up in a place where tipping isn't big, or you never worked these kind of jobs. It's almost like your angry that waitresses expect tips.

A tip is a gift. People shouldn't expect gifts.

This quote from you is why I said what I said.


That's just how it is here, and I do not complain because not all of us can enjoy college or get good jobs. Some people just have to work these types of jobs for whatever reason.


Tips are HUGE in USA...that's just how it is. Bryan and others said tips are much different where they are from, but those waitresses from other countries enjoy a good pay rate.

The reality is that in Canada the difference in wages between unskilled factory workers and waitresses is very small

The wages are HUGELY different between these 2 workers here. Unskilled factory workers earn pretty good pay here, (I know a few who make anywhere from 10-15 bucks an hour)....whereas waitresses earn (just guessing) 2-3 bucks an hour. That's a HUGE difference. BUT...some waitresses can make 100-150 bucks a night, depending where you work of course. Not at Friendlys or such places.

If the law lets employers pay this rate, why should the waitresses get punished for this? Any time someone is waiting on you hand and foot, IMO, they are entitled to a tip.

 

[skiny]

Skiny..again this conversation depends where you are from, or if you have indeed worked these kinds of jobs. The way you post you were brought up in a place where tipping isn't big, or you never worked these kind of jobs. It's almost like your angry that waitresses expect tips.

Because the comment about not tipping is stealing was from someone who apparently lives in Canada. I know what the wages are here and I know the difference between waitress wages and factory worker minimum wages.

That's just how it is here, and I do not complain because not all of us can enjoy college or get good jobs. Some people just have to work these types of jobs for whatever reason.

I also know you don't need a college degree to work in a factory. I know people who work in factories who don't even speak english and some people who are dumb a a stump but they still make the same minimum wage as everyone else. In Ontario minimum wage is $10.25. That means pretty much any full time job you do in Ontario that does not put you in a position to receive gratuities pays over 10 dollars an hour.

Tips are HUGE in USA...that's just how it is. Bryan and others said tips are much different where they are from, but those waitresses from other countries enjoy a good pay rate.

The wages are HUGELY different between these 2 workers here. Unskilled factory workers earn pretty good pay here, (I know a few who make anywhere from 10-15 bucks an hour)....whereas waitresses earn (just guessing) 2-3 bucks an hour. That's a HUGE difference. BUT...some waitresses can make 100-150 bucks a night, depending where you work of course. Not at Friendlys or such places.

If the law lets employers pay this rate, why should the waitresses get punished for this? Any time someone is waiting on you hand and foot, IMO, they are entitled to a tip.

Maybe someone should actually address this issue in the US. Personally I don't think people want to address it because they'll probably find if they raise their pay to minimum wage and lose their tips most of them would be making less money. I'm sure out of the 300 million people in the US some smart waiters or waitresses can start lobbying the government to increase their wages to minimum wage and cut out the expected tax/tip added on to people's bills. Give people a choice and they'll probably chose the tips and lower wages because in the end the tips probably amount to more than than unskilled people are making in factories and warehouses. The problem is that it's been a standard practice for so long that people are looking at it completely backwards. People in the service industry are actually getting angry because people didn't like the job they did enough to pay extra above and beyond the cost of the service. I don't understand how anyone can not see how backward that is. A tip is supposed to be a gesture of gratitude. The size of the tip is supposed to reflect the amount of gratitude. When the hell did this change? lol

 

[LaHutti]

If the law lets employers pay this rate, why should the waitresses get punished for this? Any time someone is waiting on you hand and foot, IMO, they are entitled to a tip.

This is exactly where I disagree... Noone is entitled to a tip, ever.
Everyone is entitled to get paid decent wages for their work, by their employer, who is scooping money from their employees, everytime someone tips them. The whole system stinks, and only benefits the owners.
Employees do not get paid what they SHOULD be paid, and customers pay 15% more than they should according to the bill and prices listed in the restaurant. The owner scoops it all.

 

[skiny]

Don't get me wrong. There's nothing wrong with leaving tips. I leave a tip every time I sit down and get served at a restaurant. But what I leave depends on how good the service was and how generous I'm feeling. What I really don't like is when you debit for your meal and there's a place to add your tip in. That goes directly to the restaurant's bank account and that's just not happening. If I like a waitress's service I'll give her a tip and she can put it in her pocket. That's nobody's business but mine and hers.

 

[just play]

Don't get me wrong. There's nothing wrong with leaving tips. I leave a tip every time I sit down and get served at a restaurant. But what I leave depends on how good the service was and how generous I'm feeling. What I really don't like is when you debit for your meal and there's a place to add your tip in. That goes directly to the restaurant's bank account and that's just not happening. If I like a waitress's service I'll give her a tip and she can put it in her pocket. That's nobody's business but mine and hers.

No, when you debit your meal and add on your tip it goes to the waitress, not the restaurant. The waitress goes to the register, has someone else ring the bill, (I dont believe she can do it herself, at least not when I waitressed) and that person gives the waitress the tip.

 

[LaHutti]

No, when you debit your meal and add on your tip it goes to the waitress, not the restaurant. The waitress goes to the register, has someone else ring the bill, (I dont believe she can do it herself, at least not when I waitressed) and that person gives the waitress the tip.

Yes it appears that the waitress gets the tips, but the tips is what the owner uses as an excuse to not pay decent wages, so effectively (by not paying his staff) he's scooping 15% extra.
If he paid decent wages, the waitress would still get tips, but because she's doing a good job, and people want to reward HER for it....not the owner.

 

[just play]

Yes it appears that the waitress gets the tips, but the tips is what the owner uses as an excuse to not pay decent wages, so effectively (by not paying his staff) he's scooping 15% extra.
If he paid decent wages, the waitress would still get tips, but because she's doing a good job, and people want to reward HER for it....not the owner.

I read Skinys quote...

What I really don't like is when you debit for your meal and there's a place to add your tip in. That goes directly to the restaurant's bank account and that's just not happening. If I like a waitress's service I'll give her a tip and she can put it in her pocket.

as he thought the waitress wasn't getting the tip. Because that tip that you write in does go to the waitress.

I didn't think of it meaning what you said.

But again, so you punish the waitstaff for their shitty boss?

 

[skiny]

No, when you debit your meal and add on your tip it goes to the waitress, not the restaurant. The waitress goes to the register, has someone else ring the bill, (I dont believe she can do it herself, at least not when I waitressed) and that person gives the waitress the tip.

I didn't mean the restaurant kept it. I mean from my bank account it goes to theirs. I assumed the waitress would get some of it eventually but there should be no middleman when I give someone a gift. There should also be no official record of it.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Maybe the politicians are so used to receiving their "gratuities" for service beyond the call of duty from their friends in big business that they don't want this tipping culture to change

Maybe the recession will be what it takes to force change.

If people start cutting back on the tips, and then the staff start throwing tantrums about it, people will wake up and see this for what it is, a spoilt child suddenly reacting when their bubble is burst, and they realise that a gift is not a right, but has to be earned.

In fact, the staff could be better off campaigning for better wages and an end to the opt-out tipping system. It will take some time for customers to get used to the change, and through force of habit many will still tip the staff as before even though they now get a decent wage and no longer have to rely on getting a set amount per night in tips to survive. This would explain why anyone owning such a business does NOT want anything to mess with the status quo.

The blame lies with past generations, who were in a much better position to put a stop to this before things got out of control. Now, there is significant pressure to comply with the tipping culture in order to fit in to the social order, making it far harder for small groups to try leading a change - they risk being seen as social pariahs, targeting the poor serving staff for their own gain, rather than resisting a bad custom that has been allowed to go on for too long.

The government is also to blame, as rather than try to keep things in check, they decided to tax it and encourage it to flourish even more as yet another source of revenue.

If there was no tax law to deal with tips, and they were used as untaxed income to balance artificially low taxed income, and artificially low turnover and profit figures for business, I am sure the government would have outlawed the practice right away as it would be widely abused for "tax evasion". It still can where tips are not booked as a percentage on the bill, but left as change on the table.

Perhaps a better way to fight this would be to refuse to have the charge added to the bill, but to insist things are done properly by leaving cash on your table when you have had good service. It would make it harder to owners to book the tips as their own revenue, and make it harder for them to control who received how much and when (and indeed how much they skimmed for themselves) among the staff.

 

[just play]

I didn't mean the restaurant kept it. I mean from my bank account it goes to theirs. I assumed the waitress would get some of it eventually but there should be no middleman when I give someone a gift. There should also be no official record of it.

Lol Skiny..your really making me laugh today.

She doesn't EVENTUALLY get it, and doesn't get SOME of it...she gets ALL of it right then and there. She literally walks up to the register, has someone ring out your check, then receives the tip.

 

[LaHutti]

But again, so you punish the waitstaff for their shitty boss?

Absolutely not ... my wife has been a waitress for many many years, and I try to get her to be my waitress, so I can tip her big
No...As I said in my first post, I do tip, but it really annoys me, that a restaurant owner can get away with not paying their staff, because the customers tip the waitresses....As a customer I don't want to tip the restaurant...I'm already paying for the food. When I tip, I want the tip to go to the right person. So restaurant owners ...stop being greedy bastards, pay your staff, and let the tips be just that....tips. Not and excuse for not paying people to work.

 

[Realitybitez]

Tipping is not a big thing in our country...

Or maybe it is, just for people on the higher income bracket buzz I rarely go to restaurants, in fact could count on one hand, the number of times I've actually been to a restaurant but I have tried waitressing once for a very short time, never again. What a hard hard job - all that standing

I really cant get over the low wages for servicing overseas. Our minimum wage is $13.75 for any job and for anyone of any age and I thought that was bad enough And its usually topped up by our Welfare System to bring it up to a live able income, as no one is really expected to live on that

I like to give my taxi drivers a little extra just because I know they don't make a heck of alot, and their income is mainly based on how many passengers they get, though find that they always look totally surprised, keep telling me I've overpaid them and keep trying to give me my change back which is a little embarrasing

My cousin, who seems to have the meanest luck on the slots in the pubs always tips the bar tender really well, every time she hits the jackpot ( which before anyone gets all excited lol!) is usually max only $1000 though tends to goes off all day. So I figure the day I win one too, I'd probably tip them as well... lol

 

[Balthazar]

There is a separation in Canada between "controlled" tips and "direct" tips. Direct tips are not taxed. Basically these are tips that don't show up on paper.

That could be different for other provinces but here in Quebec, you're taxed based on sales (8%). So if the customer buys a $30 steak, the government assumes that the waiter got at least a $2.40 tip. It doesn't matter if it shows on paper or not. So if you leave $1 or nothing, you actually cost him money.

It's actually the BUSINESS that is stealing. They are cheating customers by advertising a price that is lower than the correct price.

That's true. They are also stealing the staff by not paying mimimum wage. Say minimum wage is $10/hour and the pizza driver is earning $6/hour + tips, then it's just like the employer would pocket the first $4 tip that the driver gets every hour.

 

[Balthazar]

A tip is a gift. People shouldn't expect gifts.

In theory it might be a gift but in reality it's not. If you order pizza tonight, the guy that delivers your pizza with his car won't consider your tip as a gift but as an important part of his earnings. He needs that money to keep doing it, it's not some extra beer money.

If you don't tip, however, he will feel like not only you forced him to work for free, but he actually lost money because he wasn't delivering to another person while he was delivering your pizza. I've done this for many years, I know what I'm talking about here.

Sad state of affairs? Possibly. But it's the reality.

Now there's big difference between not tipping because you got bad service (justified) and not tipping because you don't like the idea or don't have the money (takeout is perfect for these people and they should use it).

 

[Jasminebed]

I didn't mean the restaurant kept it. I mean from my bank account it goes to theirs. I assumed the waitress would get some of it eventually but there should be no middleman when I give someone a gift. There should also be no official record of it.

A lot depends on where you work when you receive a tip left by debit or credit card. Some places tip pool, and the amount is paid weekly on your check. Some places take out 4% (their cost) of any tip left by credit card. Some places you have to "tip out" bus boys, service bar, hostess and kitchen, and sometimes "kitchen" includes the owner (and occasionally hostess is part of the owner's family).

When it's based on a percentage of sales (to avoid wait staff just pocketing cash and not sharing with the others), a poor table can leave a server out of pocket.

Many (if not most) delivery drivers are not paid any wage, but work for a set fee for delivery plua tips. After gas, it's often less than minimum wage. Most don't declare with their insurers that they are working delivery, or they would make no money at all.

Incidentlally VWM, that nickle on the ground is considered a "windfall" and not subject to tax, just like a lottery or casino win.

 

[skiny]

In theory it might be a gift but in reality it's not.

That's entirely backwards. In reality a tip is a gift but in PRACTICE it's not. Just because the service industry set up some sort of shady practice to allow them to pay people less than minimum wage and then try to force people to tip more than they want or think they should have to regardless of the service doesn't make it acceptable and the fact that the government has been playing along makes it even worse.

If you order pizza tonight, the guy that delivers your pizza with his car won't consider your tip as a gift but as an important part of his earnings. He needs that money to keep doing it, it's not some extra beer money.

If you don't tip, however, he will feel like not only you forced him to work for free, but he actually lost money because he wasn't delivering to another person while he was delivering your pizza. I've done this for many years, I know what I'm talking about here.

Charge a flat 2 dollars for delivery and pay the driver minimum wage for the entire night. An economical car can drive around all night for about 20 bucks worth of gas so the 2 dollars will cover the gas if the deliveries are local and the driver is guaranteed not to lose money. Most pizza places aren't more than about 5 or 10 minutes away anyway. Then if my pizza got here quickly and the order was correct I'll probably pass you a tip but if I don't it's my own business and it shouldn't be hurting your bottom line. Nobody should be relying on tips as part of their wages. This is the entire reason people are forced to tip regardless of service.

Sad state of affairs? Possibly. But it's the reality.

It's the reality because people let it become the reality. If everyone only tipped for exceptional service and refused to pay an exact percentage of the bill right from day one this wouldn't be the reality.

Now there's big difference between not tipping because you got bad service (justified) and not tipping because you don't like the idea or don't have the money (takeout is perfect for these people and they should use it).

You are correct. Everyone should use take out and all the places that don't know what the word "gratuity" means and have decided that giving gifts should be a requirement should be listening to crickets chirp under the tables.

All you have to do is replace the word "tip" and the word "gratuity" with "service tax" and then state clearly at the bottom of the menu that all prices are subect to 15 or 20% "service tax" and the whole practice will be fair and honest because nothing I'm expected to give is a tip or a gratuity.

 

[skiny]

Lol Skiny..your really making me laugh today.

She doesn't EVENTUALLY get it, and doesn't get SOME of it...she gets ALL of it right then and there. She literally walks up to the register, has someone ring out your check, then receives the tip.

Not always. There are no set rules and there are no set laws. The next place you work might give it to you on your pay cheque or add everyone's up and divide it equally among everyone. The customer has no way of knowing where the money goes or how it gets divided.

 

[gambler777]

Can't believe I missed this thread.

I've worked for tips for many years (pizza delivery, bars/pubs, restaurants...) so I know first hand that these people depend on tips (at least in North America). They earn less than minimum wage because they get tips. Pizza drivers use their cars and gas to bring the pizza to you, they get minimum (inadequate) compensation for it and sub-minimum wage. The ONLY reason why you get your pizza delivered at this price is because both the store and the driver expect you to tip. When you don't tip, you rely on others to pay for you and that's not cool. As for bartenders and waiters, they have to pay taxes on the "expected" tip even when they don't get any. So if you don't tip, you actually steal some money from of their sub-minimum wage because they'll have to pay taxes on the tip that you didn't give.

Taxi is a different story. I always tip them but they don't strictly rely on tips like the others.

Not tipping for food or drinks in Canada/USA is borderline stealing.

Sorry call this borderline stealing!!! When I go into a restaurant and order, all I should be expected to pay is the price on the menu plus taxes. If I choose to leave a tip because of exceptional service or food, that should be my choice. I should not anywhere be EXPECTED to make up what the employer does not pay to their employees. I know there are many service worker unions in USA, so I guess they should be petitioning the government to make it Minimum wage for all workers. If they are allowing employers to pay less, then the government should be expected to make up the difference. If you cannot run a business paying your employees a fair wage (ie at least minimum wage) then you should not be in business. One of the things I hate about the US is when people expect me to use my hard earned wages to make up what a business should be paying their own employees. And if you don't like what you are being paid then don't take the job. I guess then employers would be forced to pay a better wage or go out of business. And really, you think I should pay for bad, slow, or poor service or food because I should feel sorry for the employee because their employer is ripping them off.

 

[just play]

Not always. There are no set rules and there are no set laws. The next place you work might give it to you on your pay cheque or add everyone's up and divide it equally among everyone. The customer has no way of knowing where the money goes or how it gets divided.

You can always ask your waitress.

It may be different where you live. Here, she will get it right on the spot.

There is a law, if the waitstaffs tips and wage doesn't equal up to minimum wage, the owner must make up the difference.

 

[just play]

You know what's really strange? We are at a gambling forum, where people plunk down $50-$500 at a time to gamble, but have a problem with leaving a few measly dollars to someone waiting on them??? Actually to be honest, it's comical to me.

I don't find it strange with other countries, because customs are different, but from USA and Canada, I find it extremely strange.

 

[LaHutti]

You seem to ignore the fact that people don't have a problem tipping a waitress at all (At least not me...and I see others say the same thing)
What I have a problem with, is the fact that the owner of the restaurant/pizza place/whatever uses it as an excuse to not pay their staff, and as such is the one making extra money on it, while screwing the people who work for him. In my head every waitress should have an interest in changing that system, no ?

You know what's really strange? We are at a gambling forum, where people plunk down $50-$500 at a time to gamble, but have a problem with leaving a few measly dollars to someone waiting on them??? Actually to be honest, it's comical to me.

I don't find it strange with other countries, because customs are different, but from USA and Canada, I find it extremely strange.

 

[vinylweatherman]

You can always ask your waitress.

It may be different where you live. Here, she will get it right on the spot.

There is a law, if the waitstaffs tips and wage doesn't equal up to minimum wage, the owner must make up the difference.

This sums it up. The owner is using tipping as a subsidy, and counting as though they are HIS money right from the outset, forming part of his running costs, the wages.

Customers in general do not know much about how things work behind the scenes, they are merely playing along with what has become normal. It's normal for politicians to be on the make, but it doesn't make it RIGHT.

Here in the UK, our MPs recently got a very rude awakening. It was revealed that they were using the lightly regulated "expenses" scheme to make personal profits at the expense of the taxpayer. Expenses are meant to cover what you might spend of your own money in the course of your work, they are not something you should be manipulating for profit. Even after the big shakedown, some MPs still just don't get it.

In the service industry, it is the owners who are on the make, and the government has made sure it gets it's own cut, rather than doing what it should and outlawing the reliance owners place on tips to make wages up to the legal minimum. It should be minimum wage + tips, and only staff who work directly for customers should have a share in the tips. It should be the responsibility of staff to declare what they actually make for tax.

I expect the government have brought out taxation rules on tips because they know damn well that owners are "on the fiddle" by paying sub minimum wage "on the books" and making up the difference from cash tips not on the books.

It may take a clever lawyer, but maybe one day someone will challenge the government over this and use as their core argument that tips have always been gifts, and the current accepted tax regime is not actually underpinned by any proper legal definition of tips.

If a tip is a gift, it should not be taxed.
If a tip is part of the price, customers should be made aware of this price before they order, not expected to pull a figure out of their ass as to what the correct price is when they leave.

At worst, it will result in the honesty of tips being placed on the bill as a set "service charge", something you often see here in the UK, but consumer advocates have made it clear that unlike the prices laid out on the menu, we have the right in law to refuse to pay the service charge if we feel something was lacking in the experience. As Brits, most don't want to make the necessary fuss, so the restaurant gets to keep the money even if the service is mediocre.

As for the rest, we are brought up to say "thank you" to staff who serve, not give them extra money. The thanks is the reward for good service, happy customers who will come again. If we do tip, we expect it to be a private arrangement, nothing the owner nor taxman should have a stake in.

 

[Balthazar]

Sorry call this borderline stealing!!! When I go into a restaurant and order, all I should be expected to pay is the price on the menu plus taxes. If I choose to leave a tip because of exceptional service or food, that should be my choice. I should not anywhere be EXPECTED to make up what the employer does not pay to their employees. I know there are many service worker unions in USA, so I guess they should be petitioning the government to make it Minimum wage for all workers. If they are allowing employers to pay less, then the government should be expected to make up the difference. If you cannot run a business paying your employees a fair wage (ie at least minimum wage) then you should not be in business. One of the things I hate about the US is when people expect me to use my hard earned wages to make up what a business should be paying their own employees. And if you don't like what you are being paid then don't take the job. I guess then employers would be forced to pay a better wage or go out of business. And really, you think I should pay for bad, slow, or poor service or food because I should feel sorry for the employee because their employer is ripping them off.

They'd all raise their prices by 15% or 20% and you'd be more than happy to pay the exact same thing as you pay now with tipping. In fact, you should be happy that as a customer, you have the option to NOT pay as much if you get bad service. If the service charge was included in the price, you'd not have that liberty; good or bad service you'd pay your 15% or 20%. The fact that it would be hidden in the price wouldn't make it cheaper, or nonexistent.

FTR, stealing the service (because that's what it is) is no more honorable than stealing the food.

 

[P.V.]

Haven't read the thread but I tip anywhere between 15 - 20%. If the service stinks, not a dime!

 

[just play]

You seem to ignore the fact that people don't have a problem tipping a waitress at all (At least not me...and I see others say the same thing)
What I have a problem with, is the fact that the owner of the restaurant/pizza place/whatever uses it as an excuse to not pay their staff, and as such is the one making extra money on it, while screwing the people who work for him. In my head every waitress should have an interest in changing that system, no ?

Your thinking about it the wrong way. When you do your taxes, you abide by the law and fill them out correctly. The owner of the restaurant is only abiding by the law. He is not required to pay minimum wage. so he doesn't. Does that make him an asshole, sure. Does that mean more money in his pocket, sure. Should the waitresses be pissed, sure. But he's not doing something illegal.

In my head the customers shouldn't screw the waitress just because her boss is doing something legal.

Waitresses would never try and do anything about this, because another waitress is just around the corner waiting to take her job.

 

[skiny]

There is a law, if the waitstaffs tips and wage doesn't equal up to minimum wage, the owner must make up the difference.

That means some amount of the tips I leave you goes to him. If a server makes no tips and his boss obliged to pay you full minimum wage and then the server receives a 3 dollar tip, he's still only getting minimum wage. His boss is just keeping the 3 dollars. This will go on until he's taken out of his employee's tips whatever amount he's allowed to by law. If your boss is allowed to pay you 100 dollars a week less provided you're making it back up in tips, the first 100 dollars you make in tips is just going to him.

Now you can say he's not taking it out of your tips but if he's deducting your tips from the wage he's paying you, it's coming out of your tips.

 

[Nifty29]

Your thinking about it the wrong way. When you do your taxes, you abide by the law and fill them out correctly. The owner of the restaurant is only abiding by the law. He is not required to pay minimum wage. so he doesn't. Does that make him an asshole, sure. Does that mean more money in his pocket, sure. Should the waitresses be pissed, sure. But he's not doing something illegal.

In my head the customers shouldn't screw the waitress just because her boss is doing something legal.

Waitresses would never try and do anything about this, because another waitress is just around the corner waiting to take her job.

Interesting POV, in that you don't seem to apply the same reasoning when it comes to casino disputes. If you did, you would have supported casinoplex in the other thread. Small derail but given its a gambling forum I thought the comparison was worth making.

On tips....in my country, you give a tip if the service is above average. Wait staff are paid a proper hourly rate on which they can live without the tips, so anything extra they get is deserved and earned. Min adult wage over here is $600 per week for 40 hrs ($15 per hr approx).

Tips should be given for great service I.en better than average. Forced payment of "tips" is a charge, not a tip, and its BS. If the service is crap, I give nothing.

 

[harrys99]

To add from a restaurant & bar/back of the house management perspective-our servers and bartenders make $2-3 per hour.

Some of these employees make more money in cash than I make in salary and that's only what they claim for payroll.

I can count on one hand the number of times we as the employer have had to issue "tip make-up" in order to make up the difference per hour to minimum wage in the last year.

I have often wondered if I am working on the wrong side of the house LOL. Granted these are for the most part unmarried people under the age of 30-working 30-40 hours per week and have to put up with the drunks and working past midnight etc. I like going home at 4pm.

 

[Balthazar]

our servers and bartenders make $2-3 per hour.

That's next to nothing, literally.

 

[harrys99]

That's next to nothing, literally.

I agree-when I first started I was shocked. But over the course of 17 years I have seen these folks more than make up the difference in cash which they only have to claim a percentage of and not get taxed on. In my business it is young kids charging drinks and tips on mom and dads credit cards-I honestly doubt they have a real grip on what they are spending.

 

[secret2]

I agree-when I first started I was shocked. But over the course of 17 years I have seen these folks more than make up the difference in cash which they only have to claim a percentage of and not get taxed on. In my business it is young kids charging drinks and tips on mom and dads credit cards-I honestly doubt they have a real grip on what they are spending.

How much for, let's say, for a vodka tonic in a bar? Lol...I'd rather buy a half pint at a liquor store and save tons....but the 'interaction' with others is not the same as being home.

If I am going out on the town, then I am prepared to tip...if I can't afford a tip, then it's home with a liquor store bought bottle.

I used to waitress in a little diner in the UK when I was just 14 years old and one day a customer gave me a 50 pence tip but also advised me as to how to make my service better...I was not offended, it helped me.

The Uk tipping is soooo different to NYC tipping...it's expected in NY but not as much in the UK.

One can earn so much if you have the looks and have the 'gab' in the USA...literally thousands without taking your clothes off.

 

[skiny]

To add from a restaurant & bar/back of the house management perspective-our servers and bartenders make $2-3 per hour.

Some of these employees make more money in cash than I make in salary and that's only what they claim for payroll.

I can count on one hand the number of times we as the employer have had to issue "tip make-up" in order to make up the difference per hour to minimum wage in the last year.

I have often wondered if I am working on the wrong side of the house LOL. Granted these are for the most part unmarried people under the age of 30-working 30-40 hours per week and have to put up with the drunks and working past midnight etc. I like going home at 4pm.

Most people don't give 100% tips which means if they're making that much money in tips someone is making more than that in sales. So why can't these people be paid minimum wage? Someone has obviously deemed in each respective country the minimum amount of money a person should be paid per hour. I have not heard a single valid reason why a restaurant or hair salon shouldn't pay this minimum wage while other small businesses should.

The only thing I keep hearing over and over is that waitresses or other people working in the service industry are in a position to make tips so they should either rely on the generosity of clients to make an above poverty wage or their boss should take the first chunk of their tips until it amounts to the minimum wage and then they can keep the rest. The last one boggles my mind. I might as well walk into the back office and hand the boss my 3 or 5 bucks and say "Here, put this toward your waitress's salary."

People who work in the service industry have to deal with people. It's their job to make customers comfortable and happy. They earn a standard wage for taking orders and carrying the food to the tables. If customers feel they've done their job well whether it was speed of service, attentiveness, a friendly personality or many other reasons they'll leave something extra. I can't for the life of me figure out how that translates into the boss taking the first 50 or 100 dollars of it and sticking it in his pocket. If your boss is paying you less than minimum wage because somebody ELSE gave you money, he's just taking your money.

Back in the old days I used to be a carpenter. When my crew did a nice job people would offer us gestures of gratitude. Often it was a nice meal at the end of the job or a few drinks with the home owner. When I renovated houses or built additions or added decks happy clients would often bring out coffee or juice and snacks through out the course of the job. Can you imagine if a client came out and handed me a hundred bucks because I finished the job earlier than expected or did some extra things to make the finished product a little nicer and my boss said "Good, now I can deduct 100 bucks from your pay." When I finished laughing I'd have told him I'd start the next job when he put it back on.... AND I'm still on the clock. I'll just sit here on the tailgate until you stop being a dink.

 

[harrys99]

How much for, let's say, for a vodka tonic in a bar? Lol...I'd rather buy a half pint at a liquor store and save tons....but the 'interaction' with others is not the same as being home.

If I am going out on the town, then I am prepared to tip...if I can't afford a tip, then it's home with a liquor store bought bottle.

I used to waitress in a little diner in the UK when I was just 14 years old and one day a customer gave me a 50 pence tip but also advised me as to how to make my service better...I was not offended, it helped me.

The Uk tipping is soooo different to NYC tipping...it's expected in NY but not as much in the UK.

One can earn so much if you have the looks and have the 'gab' in the USA...literally thousands without taking your clothes off.

Yes I find it interesting that the UK tipping must be different than USA. I agree I would much rather pay for my drink at the store and go home.

As I understand the bar business, the big tippers never have an empty glass, bartenders and servers wipe their "place" off or basically make them feel like they are appreciated. But there is the fine line of cutting them off-without offending them. Like I said-maybe that is why they get the big cash. Put them in a taxi and make sure they are safe.

It takes so few words to make someone feel "appreciated" but if you are only hearing them from the person who is serving you I guess you are willing to pay.

I think this is the secret of the recipients of big tips-you must be a good listener and also observant.

Secret2=yes you can buy in the store what you would pay for one drink

 

[vinylweatherman]

They'd all raise their prices by 15% or 20% and you'd be more than happy to pay the exact same thing as you pay now with tipping. In fact, you should be happy that as a customer, you have the option to NOT pay as much if you get bad service. If the service charge was included in the price, you'd not have that liberty; good or bad service you'd pay your 15% or 20%. The fact that it would be hidden in the price wouldn't make it cheaper, or nonexistent.

FTR, stealing the service (because that's what it is) is no more honorable than stealing the food.

It's not actually stealing because there is no price displayed for service. You are served for free when you walk in and sit down. At the end, you get your bill based on the menu prices and pay it. That isn't stealing. It WOULD be stealing if there was a displayed instruction of how the service charge operated, and that you knew from the start that you were expected to pay a percentage directly to the service staff as well as pay the restaurant owner for the food. Remember, the customer knows nothing of the inner workings of the industry. As far as they are concerned, they either tip or they don't, but it's their personal choice, and they shouldn't be judged on it.

It only works because most do tip. They have been brought up to tip, and see tipping as polite, the same as we were brought up to say "thank you" for being served by staff.

It really shows that in the US, society is more materialistic than in other cultures, where a mere "thank you" isn't good enough any more, money needs to change hands under a set of unwritten rules that can only be learned through being brought up in that culture.

When someone from outside the US encounters this, staff with outstretched palm and a visibly insulting sneer if all they get is a polite "thank you", they are going to think that US staff are greedy moneygrabbing whatevers, because as far as they are concerned, they have been told how much it is going to cost, and that's what they expect to pay. It comes across as dishonest to pretend a service comes as part of the deal when offering it, and then suddenly trying to charge for it after the fact.

Service staff in tourist hotspots may well find they don't make the tips they had expected, although this would depend on where the tourists had come from. Some may have been taught about "local customs" that would include tipping, but they may see this as a negative aspect of the culture, an expression of materialistic greed at all levels.

If booking a cruise here in the UK, you can "buy out" the need to tip in advance. This buyout means you are not expected to tip anyone at all for the entire voyage. This comes across as very odd indeed. The Brit will pay this charge because it makes a vague situation clear and fuss free, and even if faced with pressure to tip, they know they have bought out the need to do so, so can avoid any feelings of guilt for appearing to be "tight". It also places a specific price on the total tip, so this also makes it easy to justify making the payment. We pay the charge, and someone more familiar with how this all works makes our tips for us.

Unfortunately, it leaves us with a negative view of US values where everybody is expecting a "bribe" of sorts in order to just do their jobs properly.

 

[cheetahwind]

Very well said, to those who think tipping is ludicrous. I will totally agree that here in the US we have been brought up in a very barbaric system. Mainly that supports the business owners to pay front of house staff a lower wager in exchange for tips. I really have had many of days when I have thought about just quitting, because of the infrequency of business and sometimes the tips are good and other times not so much.
I really wish I could be given a wage based on performance and how well drinks are made. Not just some shoddy wage that barely covers the taxes taken out of my check.
Don't get me wrong, there are times I love working for tips because like on a Saturday night / Sunday Brunch hell I'm raking in $100 to $200 for a measly 5 hour shift.
Then you get that 6 hour shift during the day on a oh say a Tuesday and you get a few business guys. Make like $30 and that's your wage for the day.
I long for the day my wage is consistent and something I can count on, but oh well until I change jobs or the business dries up. I guess I can't complain too hard.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Very well said, to those who think tipping is ludicrous. I will totally agree that here in the US we have been brought up in a very barbaric system. Mainly that supports the business owners to pay front of house staff a lower wager in exchange for tips. I really have had many of days when I have thought about just quitting, because of the infrequency of business and sometimes the tips are good and other times not so much.
I really wish I could be given a wage based on performance and how well drinks are made. Not just some shoddy wage that barely covers the taxes taken out of my check.
Don't get me wrong, there are times I love working for tips because like on a Saturday night / Sunday Brunch hell I'm raking in $100 to $200 for a measly 5 hour shift.
Then you get that 6 hour shift during the day on a oh say a Tuesday and you get a few business guys. Make like $30 and that's your wage for the day.
I long for the day my wage is consistent and something I can count on, but oh well until I change jobs or the business dries up. I guess I can't complain too hard.

Funny how the business guys see tipping as a mugs game, yet they unleashed this devil. If they believed that tipping made them look more socially responsible, you would make as much from a few business guys as you do from a weekend full of "ordinary folk".

This recession may be what puts the squeeze on, the rich being aware it's a mugs game, and the less well off barely able to afford the set prices, let alone the tips. The owners could lose out because some may go once a week instead of twice just so that they can fit in with the norm and leave a 10% tip on the table, which takes the place of their second visit where the owner has a second bite of 100% of the menu price.

If you buy "take out", you are not going to tip, so it will be an even cheaper option.

Do McDonalds staff expect to be tipped in the US?

 

[cheetahwind]

Actually you would be surprised how many actually do tip for take out. It's actually flooring how many people leave anywhere to a couple of dollars to skies the limits on take out.
I had one guy who came in for a blackened chicken caesar salad and a coke. The bill was like $13.00 and he left me $10.00 for me boxing up the order, making sure he had silverware, and the salad was made correctly.
Yeah not everyone tips for take out, but you would be surprised how many do.
Also it's amazing how many people even want to tip the cook if the meal was surprisingly good and cooked to expectations.
Now as for the McDonald's comment I have never once seen a McD's employee get a tip.
Yet we have a fast food chain here in town that serves tacos for $0.50/hard shell and so on and so forth. When I worked for them for my first few years, actually I had quite a few older folks who leave me dollar or two. Just for being friendly, getting there order right and what not.
It's really surprising how many people tip at the oddest of places, that I have found especially here town in town. People do tip for the oddest of things.

 

[secret2]

So, how do you guys feel about the Check-Cashing stores?...Yep, it's true...cup is out for tips at 'Davids Check Cashing', chain in Nyack, NY.

Are you kidding me? After fees for cashing the check? Are you kidding me?

 

[Jasminebed]

Well, there's a tip box at most casino cashier windows.

Here in Ontario, it's only servers of alcohol that can be paid a lower minimum wage. McDonalds here (and probably the States) has a no tipping policy, and there are charity boxes out for Ronald McDonald House or whatever. But other fast food chains have tip jars out, and so do most coffee places.

But I'm not tipping the cheque cashier, or the supermarket cashier. We used to tip the box boy when I was a kid, who bagged your groceries and carried them out to your car.

 

[LaHutti]

Your thinking about it the wrong way.

LOL...well then, that explains everything.
For the record, I don't agree.

 

[harrys99]

So, how do you guys feel about the Check-Cashing stores?...Yep, it's true...cup is out for tips at 'Davids Check Cashing', chain in Nyack, NY.

Are you kidding me? After fees for cashing the check? Are you kidding me?

I had to give that scenario some thought-not quite sure what it is that they are expecting to be tipped for.

Like the bigger the tip the faster the process? Or being tipped makes you a more qualified candidate?

That stuff is typically based on your income and frequency of your pay and this is coming from a chain store. That's really taking advantage of the situation-Bizarre and to be avoided if at all possible-LOL.

 

[ksech]

A quick response to this thread and that will be it...I have worked in food service for 35 years...

Here in my little corner of the world...waiter/waitresses MUST declare 15% of their total SALES (not tips) for the day...these are tallied and totalled for the week...they pay taxes on the total weekly sales (whether or NOT they have received a tip)...right now a server earns $5.00/hr (here...the amount is different for each state)...tips declared must make up to the minmum wage amount...if the amount does NOT make up, then the server must PAY money in...in other words, they get a $0.00 paycheck, and they get higher tax amounts withdrawn the next week...

When I started waitressing 35 years ago...minimum wage for a server was $.75/hr (yes...that says 75 cents!)...

Do I tip when I go out to eat? Yes!
Do I tip for take out orders? Yes!
Do I tip delivery? Yes!

But to each their own...and yes, it should be considered a "gift" for good/great/excellent services rendered...but our greedy government has seen to it that servers now have to depend on these tips to make a living...

 

[skiny]

A quick response to this thread and that will be it...I have worked in food service for 35 years...

Here in my little corner of the world...waiter/waitresses MUST declare 15% of their total SALES (not tips) for the day...these are tallied and totalled for the week...they pay taxes on the total weekly sales (whether or NOT they have received a tip)...right now a server earns $5.00/hr (here...the amount is different for each state)...tips declared must make up to the minmum wage amount...if the amount does NOT make up, then the server must PAY money in...in other words, they get a $0.00 paycheck, and they get higher tax amounts withdrawn the next week...

When I started waitressing 35 years ago...minimum wage for a server was $.75/hr (yes...that says 75 cents!)...

Do I tip when I go out to eat? Yes!
Do I tip for take out orders? Yes!
Do I tip delivery? Yes!

But to each their own...and yes, it should be considered a "gift" for good/great/excellent services rendered...but our greedy government has seen to it that servers now have to depend on these tips to make a living...

What country is this that forces you to pay income tax on money that doesn't exist?

 

[Stovetopp]

These folks do this for a living!
Unless they were really bad I think one should always tip Its their living
Even if they are "no good" as a waiter or waitress s/he slould be paid Unless s/he is deliberately rude .
In that case it fweels good to say FU OR LEAVE 50C ENTS and hope the mgmt asks why

 

[Andy Walker]

These folks do this for a living!
Unless they were really bad I think one should always tip Its their living
Even if they are "no good" as a waiter or waitress s/he slould be paid Unless s/he is deliberately rude .
In that case it fweels good to say FU OR LEAVE 50C ENTS and hope the mgmt asks why

Tipping should be totally unnecessary as proper remuneration would negate the need for such an old fashioned practice.

I worked in the catering industry in my younger life to bolster my money from my weekday job and to think that a waiter would get a tip for providing a great service does miss the point of the hard work the kitchen staff behind the scenes and bar staff that supplied / prepared the drinks have done, even when they pool the tips, the kitchen staff tend to miss out.

There are of course others that add to the mix and these are the cleaners that do their work before and after and sometimes between that never ever get to see the praise of a few coins thrown their way.

For those of you that have never done the “Vegas thing” expect the ultimate in tipping etiquette, by the time you have tipped the Bellmen, Concierge, Valet parking attendants, Front desk clerks, Cocktail Waitresses, Food servers and Taxi drivers, oh and Room Service you have either seriously depleted your bank balance or discovered a lifetime aversion to ever tipping again.

Wages should suffice, it should show the employer respects the employee enough that the work they do has enough productivity, profitability and merit to avoid such embarrassment.

 

[Jasminebed]

Had poor service at a favourite restaurant recently. He tried to blame the kitchen, but it's his job to make sure orders come up in a timely manner too. We sat without water or bread too, or a check on our cocktails, or he might have noticed our dinners weren't on our table.

Had to remind him to bring my glass of wine I'd ordered when the dinner did finally arrive.

No offer of a small compensation such as a coffee on the house to finish our meal.

Tipped 12% pre-tax. I'm usually much closer to 20, and I probably would have left at least 15% despite everything had he not tried to lay all the blame on the kitchen.

This is somewhere we go often, so I'm familiar with their usual standard.

 

[Andy Walker]

Had poor service at a favourite restaurant recently. He tried to blame the kitchen, but it's his job to make sure orders come up in a timely manner too. We sat without water or bread too, or a check on our cocktails, or he might have noticed our dinners weren't on our table.

Had to remind him to bring my glass of wine I'd ordered when the dinner did finally arrive.

No offer of a small compensation such as a coffee on the house to finish our meal.

Tipped 12% pre-tax. I'm usually much closer to 20, and I probably would have left at least 15% despite everything had he not tried to lay all the blame on the kitchen.

This is somewhere we go often, so I'm familiar with their usual standard.

I suppose reducing the tip instead of failing to tip sends a bigger message to an establishment that is frequented often. I do hope in their debriefing or daily meetings after a bad night they would realise the patience loyal customer’s show, and offer some added value to the next visit.

Perhaps in the heat of the moment when things weren’t going right; the mentality of it’s just a job panned out.

One would hope the next visit is very different.