"Relic Raiders" slot is a steaming POS

[Balthazar]

Most of you have probably noticed that when you're playing MGS' Tomb Raiders II, you always get the first 4 books pretty quickly but the last one takes forever (and cost a fortune) to get. That's the problem with these slots where you need to collect things in order to get a bonus round. Now if it were purely random, I'd not have a big problem with it, but these slots are blatantly made to quickly get unsuspecting fools at a place where they can't leave, which is a shame.

Relic Raiders is one of these "collect" slots...you need 4 "relics" to get a "bonus prize".

To start collecting relics, you need to get 3 "bonus" symbols on a paying line, from left to right. This will trigger a "pick me" bonus round with hidden stuff: random small prizes, a relic and a tarantula. If you pick the hairy spider, the bonus ends. So the trick is to pick the relic before picking the spider. Each bonus round has one relic and one spider (so a 50% chance to pick one or the other, am I right?).

-------
So I found this game and started playing for the first time earlier tonight. I didn't plan to play much but decided to try it for a few spins to see how it is. I got a bonus round and didn't get a relic, no big deal. Kept playing a little and found my first relic on the next bonus round. Then found the 2nd and 3rd ones on my following 2 bonus rounds. Not bad! 4 bonus rounds, 3 relics!

Now, you need 4 of them to get the bonus prize (and I've no idea what kind of bonus prize it is since it isn't mentionned on the pay table). For all I know it could be 5x stake or 2000x stake. I wasn't going to leave since I got "lucky" D) and got the first 3 in only 4 rounds. The slot is extremely boring and doesn't pay, but since nothing on the pay table suggests that you can win anything, I had to conclude that a large part of the RTP was hiding in that bonus*.

Anyways, hundreds and hundreds of spins, two hours and two deposits later, I still didn't get the 4th. Amazing isn't it? Just like Tomb Raiders II! TWELVE ROUNDS where I picked the spider instead of the relic. TWELVE. That's like flipping a coin and landing on "tails" 12 times in a row (odds: 1 chance in 4096). Talk about bad luck.


On top of that, my relics will expire in 36 hours.

I've been sucked in like a newbie, stuck at chasing a bonus. Rule #1 of slot machines: "never chase anything". Well, this one makes you break that rule by design.

Fool me once...


* I later learned that this POS is running at 90% RTP! 90%! Are you kidding me?

 

[Balthazar]

Finally got the 4th relic. Prizes were 12x, 14x, 20x and 40x and I picked the 40x, which is still a joke considering the kind of money spent to get it.

Fun fact: I triggered it during free spins, and during the same free spin session, I triggered the bonus again and it gave me the 1st relic immediately.

"Randomness" is funny, isn't it?

/sarcasm

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I am not familiar with this slot, what software provider is it?

 

[Balthazar]

I am not familiar with this slot, what software provider is it?

NetEnt!

 

[incrediblestuff]

one of the older Netent ones..

Played it once and never again, same with Tomb Raider 2 except i played that twice

 

[ChopleyIOM]

NetEnt!

Ahhh right I've just checked at Redbet and I do remember it now, I loaded it up last year when I was having my Redbet phase, took one look at the paytable, laughed my ass off at the 90% RTP and never so much as thought about it again.

The behaviour you've described doesn't surprise me though, a lot of Netent slots have some oddly non-random behaviours about them.

 

[Redbet-Andy]

I did a double take there.
Had to check and you are of course correct.
The game used to be listed at rtp of 95% and was recently changed to 90%.

I actually quite like the game but at 90% - ouch!

 

[Balthazar]

one of the older Netent ones..

Played it once and never again, same with Tomb Raider 2 except i played that twice

These slots are straight up evil, especially Relic Raiders. It will give you the first 3 relics very soon in the game then threaten you to lose them after 36 hours. The only reason to do that is to hook the unsuspecting player and make him play for as long as possible on the shitty 90% RTP slot. Of course, the 4th relic won't come before another 1000 spins and with a top prize of 40x, you have no chance to get your money back. Disgusting.

 

[Redbet-Andy]

I loaded it up last year when I was having my Redbet phase, took one look at the paytable, laughed my ass off at the 90% RTP and never so much as thought about it again.

Maybe not so recently changed then.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I did a double take there.
Had to check and you are of course correct.
The game used to be listed at rtp of 95% and was recently changed to 90%.

How recently? I'm sure I remember seeing it at 90% last year and running a mile, unless I'm hallucinating.

I'm also a little bit concerned to hear the RTP has been changed by 5% by Netent, did the game itself change or were they previously misreporting its RTP?

 

[incrediblestuff]

These slots are straight up evil, especially Relic Raiders. It will give you the first 3 relics very soon in the game then threaten you to lose them after 36 hours. The only reason to do that is to hook the unsuspecting player and make him play for as long as possible on the shitty 90% RTP slot. Of course, the 4th relic won't come before another 1000 spins and with a top prize is 40x, you have no chance to get your money back. Disgusting.

I absolutely agree with the fact that the expiry of achievements needed to achieve at least some of the (low) 90% RTP is
terrible, it shouldn't expire at all, but 36 hours is ridiculous...

 

[Redbet-Andy]

How recently? I'm sure I remember seeing it at 90% last year and running a mile, unless I'm hallucinating.

I'm also a little bit concerned to hear the RTP has been changed by 5% by Netent, did the game itself change or were they previously misreporting its RTP?

I assume they were TRTP at launch and after so much gameplay they are adjusting them to reflect the truer values. I'll ask

They updated a few recently, I'm just having someone go through them.
We are showing 91.6 on Silent Run but that's a typo it's 96.1, apologies RTP fans.

 

[Redbet-Andy]

Just in case anyone's unaware.
You can get the most up to date RTPs on Netent games by clicking on the little "?" in the bottom left corner of the game screen.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I assume they were TRTP at launch and after so much gameplay they are adjusting them to reflect the truer values. I'll ask

But TRTP is TRTP, it never changes unless the game changes.

I'd be very worried if Netent couldn't work out the TRTP of their slots before launch, and had to later update them once they'd got the right numbers.

On top of which, as far as I'm concerned the ONLY value that should be displayed on a paytable is the TRTP, what the slot has actually paid out this week, or month, or year - is not the figure that's important!

 

[Redbet-Andy]

But TRTP is TRTP, it never changes unless the game changes.

I'd be very worried if Netent couldn't work out the TRTP of their slots before launch, and had to later update them once they'd got the right numbers.

On top of which, as far as I'm concerned the ONLY value that should be displayed on a paytable is the TRTP, what the slot has actually paid out this week, or month, or year - is not the figure that's important!

I see what you mean but isn't there a case for saying something like:
OK we estimated that at 95% RTP and after billions of rounds (ok maybe millions) we see that it's paying back 90% so in fairness to players that's the figure we should now state?

 

[Balthazar]

On top of which, as far as I'm concerned the ONLY value that should be displayed on a paytable is the TRTP, what the slot has actually paid out this week, or month, or year - is not the figure that's important!

Or better yet, how about keeping all the games in the same 1%-2% range? Sometimes I'm trying new slots and I don't think about looking at the RTP for each one of them. On Netent, I just assumed that most slots are ~96% or so. A 6%-7% RTP loss is very noticeable even on a single session, especially on a lower variance game like this one.

 

[Balthazar]

I see what you mean but isn't there a case for saying something like:
OK we estimated that at 95% RTP and after billions of rounds (ok maybe millions) we see that it's paying back 90% so in fairness to players that's the figure we should now state?

Maybe I'm being naive but the TRTP should come from a mathematical formula, no?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I see what you mean but isn't there a case for saying something like:
OK we estimated that at 95% RTP and after billions of rounds (ok maybe millions) we see that it's paying back 90% so in fairness to players that's the figure we should now state?

But that should never happen, any competent software provider should be 100% confident of a slot's T-RTP before it's released, and state that T-RTP on the paytable. I'd expect any slot to have had millions upon millions of spins chucked through it before launch, so that the T-RTP is verified as to being what the slot actually returns. (And remember they won't actually have to 'play' millions of spins, they can just hammer the RNG as fast as their servers will let them, to the extent that they should be able to gather millions of spins worth of data in a relatively short period of time.)

If Relic Raiders has changed from 95% to 90%, I'm very interested to know why!

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Maybe I'm being naive but the TRTP should come from a mathematical formula, no?

As I understand it you can work out the T-RTP from a mathematical formula provided you have access to all the possible game results, or the reel layouts, or whatever it takes - all stuff that the developer themselves will have access to anyway.

From there I'd expect the slot to be rigorously tested prior to release (and I'm talking tens of millions of spins) to make sure that the T-RTP is the same as the actual RTP.

Anything else would be unforgivably sloppy IMO.

 

[Redbet-Andy]

If Relic Raiders has changed from 95% to 90%, I'm very interested to know why!

I've asked Netent. Will update the thread when they get back to us.

 

[Balthazar]

As I understand it you can work out the T-RTP from a mathematical formula provided you have access to all the possible game results, or the reel layouts, or whatever it takes - all stuff that the developer themselves will have access to anyway.

If you have 5 reels and X number of symbols with different values on each reel and X number of possible stops, you should be able to easily calculate the TRTP. It gets a bit more complicated with the "rigged" (aka "different") bonus rounds but it's nothing that can't be done strictly on paper. I see absolutely no reason (outside of incompetence) why a slot wouldn't return the mathematical TRTP figure on the long run.

Will wait for Netent's answer as I'm curious to hear that.

 

[rainmaker]

How recently? I'm sure I remember seeing it at 90% last year and running a mile, unless I'm hallucinating.

TheLastCylon posted a NetEnt TRTP list in January last year:

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/net-entertainment-slot-rtp-list.48510/

Relic Raiders was at that time also listed with a 90% TRTP, so you are not hallucinating

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I see Mr Cylon has been banned

 

[Nifty29]

I see Mr Cylon has been banned

Indeed he has.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Indeed he has.

Shame, he was a good poster.

 

[Balthazar]

Indeed he has.

I couldn't find anything offensive in his most recent posts. Something must have happened in private or the posts got deleted.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I couldn't find anything offensive in his most recent posts. Something must have happened in private or the posts got deleted.

I believe the problem was he'd been banned in a previous incarnation and had registered a new account under a different alias, or at least, he was accused of that - it seemed to take a while for the 'proof' to come to light and for the banning to be handed out.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I see what you mean but isn't there a case for saying something like:
OK we estimated that at 95% RTP and after billions of rounds (ok maybe millions) we see that it's paying back 90% so in fairness to players that's the figure we should now state?

No, but there is a case for investigating what appears to be a SERIOUS error in the game engine.

It now makes it look as though NetEnt got greedy, and even 95% wasn't enough, so they changed it to make 10% for the house.

The idea that the TRTP of existing games can be dropped right down to 90% on a whim is going to drive players away from a particular provider, and it's the casinos offering the games that will suffer the most.

Who do NetEnt think they are? Cryptologic

 

[dunover]

Finally got the 4th relic. Prizes were 12x, 14x, 20x and 40x and I picked the 40x, which is still a joke considering the kind of money spent to get it.

Fun fact: I triggered it during free spins, and during the same free spin session, I triggered the bonus again and it gave me the 1st relic immediately.

"Randomness" is funny, isn't it?

/sarcasm

Foil hat despatched today, the 'deluxe' gold with antenna edition. FOC. Gratis.

 

[quber]

I would assume the TRTP requires all relics to be found in a 48 hour period, if 3 relics are lost due to non play, then you start again on the next session from zero, it is taking 7 relic picks in total to get to the bonus round. if a big percentage is made from the bonus round then this is affecting TRTP.

Before a game is launched Netent would have no way of knowing how many players do not reach the bonus round and just give in, so would have to give an TRTP that included always reaching the bonus, now the game has been live for a while they will have data on this and would be able to give a more accurate figure.

The way the game should work though is that the collected relics never expire then an accurate figure can be given.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I would assume the TRTP requires all relics to be found in a 48 hour period, if 3 relics are lost due to non play, then you start again on the next session from zero, it is taking 7 relic picks in total to get to the bonus round. if a big percentage is made from the bonus round then this is affecting TRTP.

Before a game is launched Netent would have no way of knowing how many players do not reach the bonus round and just give in, so would have to give an TRTP that included always reaching the bonus, now the game has been live for a while they will have data on this and would be able to give a more accurate figure.

The way the game should work though is that the collected relics never expire then an accurate figure can be given.

It's how it works with MGS, so how come other game developers can't do it?

It is also a problem with regard to responsible gambling as a 36 hour time limit would prompt players to chase down the relics by playing beyond their comfort zone rather than leaving it for a few days and coming back to the game.

The problem is illustrated by the above review, where chasing down the last relic was an ordeal, with the equivalent of 12 consecutive coin tosses going against you. A player that has lost heavily, but is a relic short, is sure to chase down that relic rather than abandon the game and lose whatever prize might be awarded on the very next spin.

It's the same with MGS Tomb Raider II, the final passport can take 300+ spins and several deposits, but at least the other 4 don't expire in a mere 36 hours.

I recall some fruit machines in the 1980's that had a similar feature that grew during play. Action Bank and Action Pack were an early pair, and nudges were added to a bank which players could take right away, or leave to build to award a jackpot prize. After a while, this type of feature was banned because it induced players to chase for the maximum bank value and a jackpot prize. I can see the UKGC having a similar problem with an online game with a "chase me" type feature accompanied with a harsh time limit after which everything gained so far is removed. They may even question the MGS model, as although nothing expires, it still induces an element of chasing, although in mitigation a player could leave it a month or more, and come back when they again have some spare money left over.

 

[Balthazar]

if a big percentage is made from the bonus round then this is affecting TRTP.

It would actually make sense if they'd have dropped the TRTP after realizing that some people lose their relics, which is a net RTP loss. I don't think that 5% is locked in that bonus though.

Can you can get more than 40x your avg bet in that bonus? Andy?

 

[mrmark21]

Most of you have probably noticed that when you're playing MGS' Tomb Raiders II, you always get the first 4 books pretty quickly but the last one takes forever (and cost a fortune) to get. That's the problem with these slots where you need to collect things in order to get a bonus round. Now if it were purely random, I'd not have a big problem with it, but these slots are blatantly made to quickly get unsuspecting fools at a place where they can't leave, which is a shame.

Relic Raiders is one of these "collect" slots...you need 4 "relics" to get a "bonus prize".

To start collecting relics, you need to get 3 "bonus" symbols on a paying line, from left to right. This will trigger a "pick me" bonus round with hidden stuff: random small prizes, a relic and a tarantula. If you pick the hairy spider, the bonus ends. So the trick is to pick the relic before picking the spider. Each bonus round has one relic and one spider (so a 50% chance to pick one or the other, am I right?).

-------
So I found this game and started playing for the first time earlier tonight. I didn't plan to play much but decided to try it for a few spins to see how it is. I got a bonus round and didn't get a relic, no big deal. Kept playing a little and found my first relic on the next bonus round. Then found the 2nd and 3rd ones on my following 2 bonus rounds. Not bad! 4 bonus rounds, 3 relics!

Now, you need 4 of them to get the bonus prize (and I've no idea what kind of bonus prize it is since it isn't mentionned on the pay table). For all I know it could be 5x stake or 2000x stake. I wasn't going to leave since I got "lucky" D) and got the first 3 in only 4 rounds. The slot is extremely boring and doesn't pay, but since nothing on the pay table suggests that you can win anything, I had to conclude that a large part of the RTP was hiding in that bonus*.

Anyways, hundreds and hundreds of spins, two hours and two deposits later, I still didn't get the 4th. Amazing isn't it? Just like Tomb Raiders II! TWELVE ROUNDS where I picked the spider instead of the relic. TWELVE. That's like flipping a coin and landing on "tails" 12 times in a row (odds: 1 chance in 4096). Talk about bad luck.


On top of that, my relics will expire in 36 hours.

I've been sucked in like a newbie, stuck at chasing a bonus. Rule #1 of slot machines: "never chase anything". Well, this one makes you break that rule by design.

Fool me once...


* I later learned that this POS is running at 90% RTP! 90%! Are you kidding me?

Yeah I got that on Devils something or other (can't remember the name). I agree not random. You get many of the needed souls/relics early on (extremely easily) and then they set you off on a chase for the remaining ones. Then the "feature" returns poor results. Yeah fool me once

Originally Netent was one of my favorite providers until I started to find that hitting more than a 100x win was near impossible (at least for me anyway). Netent's good for small wins (50-100x) that keep you're bankroll going. Good for people that play purely for entertainment but where's the excitement when you can't win enough to get excited?