Realtime Gaming alert

[jerseyguy11]

oh and i have lost a good amount of money to groups i dont bitch about. before i made money at Fortune lounge, i was down about 5k. I have always spoken highly about them. They are one of the best groups out there.

I lost 1k at casinowebcam and still find them fine (obviously they are a different situation being live bj). I lost about 3k on gaming club and i dont talk poorly about them. so dont imply that im a sore loser, im truly not.

 

[Lurkio]

Err on one hand it seems phoenician has a sterling reputation from this board..then you lose there,so its their fault and then you post and "infer" that they manipulate software..which also damages ALL casinos on that software.

Personally I find that irresponsible on a public board..the damage is done..I'd be spitting nails.

I am lucky i guess..i have never NOT been paid as an affiliate by ANY casino...maybe id be bitching if i had..maybe not..i look at the bottom line as do most professional webmasters.

I couldnt give a rats backside about your hacker mate..they are worse than any rogue casino operator..you think if a major software provider like RTG / MGS or playtech got hacked they wouldnt be aware of it!..or couldnt dtop it!?? you are dreaming!

..and dont be such a post snob! just because i lurk and dont post doesnt mean i cant read or have opinions! I have been sending casino traffic for over 5 years and I know a little about how they operate at least from an affiliates view..so my opinions arent clouded by losing to them..

nothing personal ..just playing devils advocate here..it all seems very one sided..the casinos,dean or any other seem damned if they do , damned if they dont!

 

[DeMango]

Untill there is a real accounting firm or other interface that plays the software and gives us true reports, no one will be satisfied that all software plays a fair game. The very fact that every hand of BJ is freshly dealt makes it a different game from a land casino. I have stopped playing BJ recreationally (only for WR) untill I'm satisfied as to the fairness of the game. My results with RTG, Crypto and MG have not been up to expectations.

 

[Phoenician]

Let me ask you Dean how many decks of cards is the Realtime Gaming software for Blackjack set-up for? In other words Dean, how many decks of cards is Realtime Gaming blackjack dealt with?

To your direct knowledge is there any way in which the number of decks can be manipulated on the casino's end. Or in other words do you have direct knowledge of a process whereby the number of decks incident to Realtime Gaming blackjack can be increased and or decreased according to the casinos desired effect?

If the answer to that last question is: Yes, the number of decks can be manipulated. At what point would you consider that manipulation as being fair to the player?

Dean, if you take a look at the various Cipher strands that I've posted on the Casinomeister website there are far and away more winning sessions than losing sessions. I'd be interested to know why you would want to infer otherwise?

Now Dean, you've made comments such as this on numerous occassions...

"There are many players who post and/or lurk on these forums that have won some very decent amounts from us and have been paid without problem and promptly." Would you care to offer any form of verifiable proof of such wins? And are any of these "decent wins" equal to the many tens of thousands of dollars that have been lost by some the folks who post and lurk here on the Casinomeister website? Have a good one.

1. the RTG casinos can determine the number of decks used in the blackjack games from between 2-8 decks from memory. it is not an insignificant task to change the number of decks ( i also believe it can only be done when there are no active sessions ) , it is something that happens system wide , it cannot be linked to an individual player or outcome or anything. in other words you cannot change the number of decks during a game or to alter a result of a game in progress. i am not a maths giant but my understanding there is little variation between 2 and 8 decks anyway. there is no function in the rtg software that changes the number of decks to conicide players play at all. the right answer to your question is the decks can be changed but they cannot be used to manipulate the outcome of a game.

2. re infering you have posted losing sessions - i am discussing this thread cipher where you have inferred that our casino is manipulating software and i am simply pointing out that you are winning at our casino and this particular session that you are using to prove your point is 23 hands.

3. re player wins - i can post here many players winning sessions but what will that prove and i certainly would not feel right about posting players data without permission first. there are plenty of players that have won and cashed out of our casino cipher and i am sure that you know that.

btw i could ( but wont ) also ask you to substantiate that do you have any proof of such losses from people.

cipher you and i have had a good history over various matters and i do not wish to run around in circles on this issue with you. you believe that we manipulate the software then that is sad but it is what you believe. my response to your comments is we do not manipulate software we run a professional operation and i believe we have professional integrity. you have stated your position and i have stated mine/ours. personally i am dissappointed that questioning the integrity of my operation also questions my personal integrity which is a shame.

cheers


dean

 

[jerseyguy11]

Err on one hand it seems phoenician has a sterling reputation from this board..then you lose there,so its their fault and then you post and "infer" that they manipulate software..which also damages ALL casinos on that software.

Personally I find that irresponsible on a public board..the damage is done..I'd be spitting nails.

I am lucky i guess..i have never NOT been paid as an affiliate by ANY casino...maybe id be bitching if i had..maybe not..i look at the bottom line as do most professional webmasters.

I couldnt give a rats backside about your hacker mate..they are worse than any rogue casino operator..you think if a major software provider like RTG / MGS or playtech got hacked they wouldnt be aware of it!..or couldnt dtop it!?? you are dreaming!

..and dont be such a post snob! just because i lurk and dont post doesnt mean i cant read or have opinions! I have been sending casino traffic for over 5 years and I know a little about how they operate at least from an affiliates view..so my opinions arent clouded by losing to them..

nothing personal ..just playing devils advocate here..it all seems very one sided..the casinos,dean or any other seem damned if they do , damned if they dont!

well friend isnt the right word. more like, person i knew from the game (when i played it i was like 14 years old). i hated him for hacking he was a jerk. in the end EA couldnt do anything to stop his programs so they shut the game down online. Thats how easy it is to manipulate software. Thats the point im trying to make.

Theres a guy named Professor I. Nelson Rose. a simple search on google for "professor online gambling" will return info on him and his articles. I've read his articles for a few years now.


"It is still a crime for someone in California to bet on a sport events. No ethical lawyer would ever tell you to break the law. But I have not found one reported case, in the history of the United States and Canada, of a player being arrested for making a bet on the Internet.

It also does not mean that betting on the Internet is safe. You might not be committing a crime, but how about the operator? Is an unlicenced operator going to run an honest game?"


Old / Expired Link

 

[cipher]

1. the RTG casinos can determine the number of decks used in the blackjack games from between 2-8 decks from memory. it is not an insignificant task to change the number of decks ( i also believe it can only be done when there are no active sessions ) , it is something that happens system wide , it cannot be linked to an individual player or outcome or anything. in other words you cannot change the number of decks during a game or to alter a result of a game in progress. i am not a maths giant but my understanding there is little variation between 2 and 8 decks anyway. there is no function in the rtg software that changes the number of decks to conicide players play at all. the right answer to your question is the decks can be changed but they cannot be used to manipulate the outcome of a game.

2. re infering you have posted losing sessions - i am discussing this thread cipher where you have inferred that our casino is manipulating software and i am simply pointing out that you are winning at our casino and this particular session that you are using to prove your point is 23 hands.

3. re player wins - i can post here many players winning sessions but what will that prove and i certainly would not feel right about posting players data without permission first. there are plenty of players that have won and cashed out of our casino cipher and i am sure that you know that.

btw i could ( but wont ) also ask you to substantiate that do you have any proof of such losses from people.

cipher you and i have had a good history over various matters and i do not wish to run around in circles on this issue with you. you believe that we manipulate the software then that is sad but it is what you believe. my response to your comments is we do not manipulate software we run a professional operation and i believe we have professional integrity. you have stated your position and i have stated mine/ours. personally i am dissappointed that questioning the integrity of my operation also questions my personal integrity which is a shame.

cheers


dean

No Dean, "the right answer to your question is the decks can be changed." and you do not know if they can or cannot be used to manipulate the out come of the game. Do you?

Don't you think it would be nice or maybe even fair for the player to know if he or she is playing with a 2, 8 or for that matter a 38 deck shoe?

The 23 hand session you refer to is an exemplar of a session played at the Phoenician. I can see where you would have loved for me to keep playing in that type of game where there is no more than one winning wager in a row for the player but multiple winning clumps for your house. I guess that's the difference between me and more than a few people that didn't have sense enough to cut that kind of nonsense off because they couldn't see that trend developing but instead they just waited through tens of thousands of dollars for your system to even out. I mean after all Dean says his game is fair so it must be.

I'll tell you what I'll do Dean. I'll make contact tomorrow with some of your customers. Who have sent there log data files to me and incident to the loss of tens of thousand of dollars. All of those sessions (by the way) bearing the same "one and done" characteristics as that 23 hand session. I'll ask those people for permission to post their data.

In the meantime why don't you contact some of those big winners you refer to and get their permission to post that information.

Finally, Dean the operative word in your last paragraph is "HAD."

 

[Phoenician]

I mean after all Dean says his game is fair so it must be.

and you say it isnt so it must not be !

Cipher - i dont have any more to add to this conversation and i am not going to get involved in a slugging match with you or anyone else , i have said what i have to say i see no sense in going around in circles. You do what you feel you have to do.

cheers


dean

 

[Simmo!]

OK i'm not getting involved in the goodness/badness of this particular cipher strand as i don't play RTG casinos, however something intrigues me.

Phoenician (and one or two other RTG's like iNetBet etc) seem to have good reputation around these parts in general - so why do they use RTG who seem to be blighted by casinos giving them a bad name? And then end up having to defend themselves in threads like this one. If it was me, i'd be on a Crypto or MG platform like greased lightening!

Is it a complicated process to switch? Or is it because RTG are less stringent in regulating?

 

[ftg]

Serveral Comments:
1. We can never tell online casinos cheat or not without looking at the program codes, especially if they cheat professionally.

2. If online casinos cheat, I believe only the casino software providers have the "switch", but no operators - too risky to have that switch accessible for the operator - and operators and provider are on the same boat.

3. Enlightening by Simmo, how come there is not a single casino group having different brands for different popular software platforms (Willima Hill do have 2 platform but that's probably not their target to create different branding for different software)? Wouldn't it be nice to see Dean to have 4 different casinos running BM, Crypto, MG and RTG so that their group can cover almost everyone that gamble online?

4. For the payout reports, I do see casinos using crypto sometimes have over 100% payout for TABLE games but never seen at MG or RTG casinos. Why? For me, it's very natural even the house will have a bad month but seems never for MG or RTG (or BOSS?).

 

[Simmo!]

4. For the payout reports, I do see casinos using crypto sometimes have over 100% payout for TABLE games but never seen at MG or RTG casinos. Why? For me, it's very natural even the house will have a bad month but seems never for MG or RTG (or BOSS?).

I have a theory on this. I can only speak from a Video Poker angle, but MG have 2 VP games with 99.93%+ (JoB & DW multihand) expected returns and Crypto has Double Bonus with 99.94%. I suspect Table games are similar too. But, MG (& RTG for that matter) has "Reverse Withdrawal" whereas Crypto generally uses Ecash which is instant. Thus, i reckon, most players reverse withdrawals on MG when they run out (the "oh go on, one more try" theory!) whereas Crypto players go and do the washing up.

Just my theory - and why i always ask MG casinos to bring the RW down to 1 hour before i play

Oh - ftg - just an aside. Will Hill use Crypto i know, but whats the second platform???

 

[ftg]

Oh - ftg - just an aside. Will Hill use Crypto i know, but whats the second platform???

They have got BM for their Euro version:

Old / Expired Link

 

[caruso]

Re. number of decks: the "default" is four. You can be sure no operator uses less than that, so two decks isn't happening. The difference in house edge between four and eight decks is 0.1%, - 0.49% as opposed to 0.59%. This doesn't have any impact on player strategy. If you want to be "sure", then assume six decks - that's what I do.

If you want to go one better, stop playing RTG blackjack and play pontoon. That is a GUARENTEED eight deck game, and the house edge is three times lower at 0.17%, so you'll lose three times less. Comp points shave it right down to the bone, although a vague memory is telling me Phonecian don't offer comps for pontoon play - correct me if I'm wrong. Some RTGs have better than average comp programmes.

For those concerned about "trends" and "streaks", I would suggest you're looking at the bark on the trees and not the forest. A bunch of wins here and there doesn't tell you anything. One session doesn't tell you much either, but it's better than looking at "clumps" of this and that over four or five hands. Better still, look at the win / loss stats for a collection of sessions. Better still, look at your TOTAL win / loss stats, ignoring bet size. If you want to examine bet size you need to look at all bets of that particular size, you can't mix them all together and try to draw conclusions - this would be no more valid with real cards than with virtual ones online.

 

[jerseyguy11]

I guess that's the difference between me and more than a few people that didn't have sense enough to cut that kind of nonsense off because they couldn't see that trend developing but instead they just waited through tens of thousands of dollars for your system to even out.

I didnt have the sense :/

 

[bethug]

I just won 400 buck in less than a hour playing a rtg casino, looking at cipher logs, i would have done well with my hood 3000 system.
I have won more money with rtg casinos then any others.

 

[bpb]

For those concerned about "trends" and "streaks", I would suggest you're looking at the bark on the trees and not the forest. A bunch of wins here and there doesn't tell you anything. One session doesn't tell you much either, but it's better than looking at "clumps" of this and that over four or five hands. Better still, look at the win / loss stats for a collection of sessions. Better still, look at your TOTAL win / loss stats, ignoring bet size. If you want to examine bet size you need to look at all bets of that particular size, you can't mix them all together and try to draw conclusions - this would be no more valid with real cards than with virtual ones online.

Good post.

A lot of gamblers go broke looking for "trends". Thats why casinos hand out cards for tracking previous hands at the Baccarat tables. That's why all roulette tables now have display boards showing the past 20+ numbers. These trend seekers can only hurt themselves by deviating from optimal play due to something they see in the trend.

But regarding online "trends", here's the problem I have. Either a casino is dealing a fair game, or they are manipulating the deal to increase the house advantage. If they were to manipulate a blackjack game, they would likely opt for simple change such as, when the dealer is drawing to a 16, if the first card off is a bust card, discard it and draw again (having the 2nd card play regardless of whether its a bust card or not). This simple change would increase the house advantage in a fairly subtle way. Such a change could easily be triggered by bet size, etc.

However, to think that a casino is manipulating the deal in a way that can not only be detected, but exploited via manipulating bet size is incomprehensible to me. If a casino is going to cheat, wouldn't they have the resources and desire to do so correctly, ie in a way that is not easily detectable, and certainly not exploitable.

 

[sw2003]

Attachments to above post:

Usually Cipher strand screenshots are rather clear and easy to see! This time the two screenshots are so tiny and vague that I can't see a thing.

 

[cipher]

Usually Cipher strand screenshots are rather clear and easy to see! This time the two screenshots are so tiny and vague that I can't see a thing.

Hi SW2003; I don't know what the difference is one day they turn out crisp and then the next day they turn out like you've said. I'm going to try re-posting them in a bit. Have a good one.

 

[cipher]

Usually Cipher strand screenshots are rather clear and easy to see! This time the two screenshots are so tiny and vague that I can't see a thing.

Re-post of Cipher strand from 8 30 04 for clarification. Have a good one.

 

[cipher]

I've attached three Cipher Strands. One for Phoenician today, one for Casino Fortune today and one for Oasis casino & sports book for today.

The "one and done" routine at the Phoenician is still very prevalent today and checking back it has been prevalent for some six days in a row now. Have a good one.

 

[sw2003]

I've attached three Cipher Strands. One for Phoenician today, one for Casino Fortune today and one for Oasis casino & sports book for today.

The "one and done" routine at the Phoenician is still very prevalent today and checking back it has been prevalent for some six days in a row now. Have a good one.

I have seen something similar to the first Phoenician result at a Cryptologic casino. That session started off insane for about 30 hands but eventually it normalized. The second screenshot of Phoenician is kind of insane if you are the player. Oasis's one is also bad but the result from CF doesn't seem too horrible by comparison. The last one has at least 3 or 4 blocks of green.

Oh thanks Cipher for reposting with better screenshots!

 

[bethug]

cipher, what software do u you think is fair?

 

[cipher]

cipher, what software do u you think is fair?

Hi Bethug; That's a great question and to be honest Bethug that basically changes everyday. But when I go into the office every morning I review the Cipher strands (that have been recorded over the previous evening) which generally have about 7 hours or so recorded on them and then I make my decisions for play based on those Cipher strands. Have a good one.

 

[eek]

So you're talking about a dynamic situation, dependent on the results of the immediate prior period.

Do I smell some subject matter for a whole new thread...

 

[natophonic]

Attachments to above post:

I can't seem to read these pics, the resolution seems too low. I'm not sure what a 'cipher strand' is... is there some sort of automated play that allows for a high number of hands/spins/rolls/whatever to establish 'read world' odds?

... ahem ... I read further on and found bitmaps in .zip files that I could read. So I gather you've got some sort of windows or java app that you've done that gathers these statistics?

Also, is there any 'easy' way to correlate your stats (e.g., overall games 23/60 38.33%) to the 97-98% 'payout' rates that most of the online casinos advertise?

 

[jpm]

Are you using Win XP natophonic? If so, it will automatically size pictures to fit the screen and thus screw up the readability of them. Try this, open one of the cipher strand pictures and then hover your mouse over the lower right corner of the picture. When you see the orange box pop up with the arrows in each corner, click on it and see if that improves the picture.