PR: NEW HOPE FOR GRAND PRIVE AFFILIATES

[dominique]

I received a note that my claim is being investigated.

 

[triple777s]

I filed my claim with them and must say they were my biggest earners back when promoting, since then my affiliate business tanked a great deal and thats because while working with GP i devoted almost my entire site to them for over 5 years, they sponsored contest after contest and promotion after promotion, they were my main advertisers and when they locked me out it hurt greatly!

With that said, i still believe this is bullshit. Yes they may pay us a drop in the bucket of what they think they owe, but what about all the players that may have signed up but had not yet made thier first deposit back before Dec.08? What if they have all become active players since? Don't they owe us that money also? I mean they are still our players and were supposed to be for life, so as far as i am concerned they will never pay what is owed us because there is no way to put a money amount on this.

 

[dominique]

Ok, I am ready to talk about this now. But first everyone should be aware of this:


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[vinylweatherman]

I filed my claim with them and must say they were my biggest earners back when promoting, since then my affiliate business tanked a great deal and thats because while working with GP i devoted almost my entire site to them for over 5 years, they sponsored contest after contest and promotion after promotion, they were my main advertisers and when they locked me out it hurt greatly!

With that said, i still believe this is bullshit. Yes they may pay us a drop in the bucket of what they think they owe, but what about all the players that may have signed up but had not yet made thier first deposit back before Dec.08? What if they have all become active players since? Don't they owe us that money also? I mean they are still our players and were supposed to be for life, so as far as i am concerned they will never pay what is owed us because there is no way to put a money amount on this.

Do I take it that your site was for EVERYBODY, not just American players. If so, some of your players will STILL be able to deposit & play, players YOU originally recruited, but who would no longer be contributing to your income stream should they have decided to continue playing. Many may have left after they stopped sponsoring the competitions on your site, but others would surely have continued because of the Grand Prive offerings.

Given the about turn by MGS, there may still be US players at Grand Prive with these "Grandfather rights" preserved so long as the original casinos remain open, as they did after news of their imminent demise & replacement with European facing brands was exaggerated

 

[dominique]

There are still all american players playing. They just aren't taking new ones.

The most flawed thing is that they are NOT contacting affiliates. The great majority of affiliates do NOT visit the ecogra site or any message boards. They need to be notified by mail that claims can be submitted.

 

[Simmo!]

There are still all american players playing. They just aren't taking new ones.

The most flawed thing is that they are NOT contacting affiliates. The great majority of affiliates do NOT visit the ecogra site or any message boards. They need to be notified by mail that claims can be submitted.

I know eCOGRA started talking to GP early in 2009, even though at that stage eCOGRA weren't directly servicing affiliates, so I imagine reaching an agreement as to how to proceed has taken some time.

Both PR's call for eCOGRA to "notify all affiliates" which I think most people realise is probably not possible without co-operation, hence the claim form, as eCOGRA don't have an affiliate base to reach out to directly. Hopefully Andy & Warren have spoken to Andrew Beveridge or Tex Rees and made them aware of how they can help with that because the last thing we need is internal disagreements over procedures and processes right now. Also, if AGD/CAP clash with eCOGRA that will be potentially detrimental to affiliates now that eCOGRA have decided to assist in representing them. Unity is what is needed now.

I also wouldn't mind betting that GP don't have the affiliate contact details anymore, or else what you suggest Dom would be an obvious action.

I expect AGD and CAP will email/PM their members to let them know of the claim process anyway so hopefully that will help reach far and wide.

One thing I am pleased to see is that eCOGRA have got lawyers involved in this. I have alread had two emails from the law firm. It would be great if the experience of CAP and AGD can be used to assist in the process.

 

[dominique]

Without an impartial affiliate representation, such as AGD could provide, we will now never know if the affiliate data base is intact and if affiliates can be contacted. My guess is that it does and that it is just more convenient and cheaper to deal with the vocal ones that visit the message boards and stop the blacklisting that way.

Andy says:

Our plan would have included contacting all Grand Prive affiliates (not just those who submitted a claimant form) in the same manner that a class action lawsuit informs all affected persons.

That is only resonable.

Warren says:

That's when I contacted Andy from Affiliate Guard Dog (AGD), and even got the support of my contact at Grand Priv to allow Andy to oversee the audit, which was to be handled by an independent auditor such as Price Waterhouse or similar at the time.

While these talks were still in progress, out of the blue over the weekend, came the ecogra press release.

Affiliates were completely side stepped.

One has to wonder: "why???"

 

[jetset]

I know eCOGRA started talking to GP early in 2009, even though at that stage eCOGRA weren't directly servicing affiliates, so I imagine reaching an agreement as to how to proceed has taken some time.

Both PR's call for eCOGRA to "notify all affiliates" which I think most people realise is probably not possible without co-operation, hence the claim form, as eCOGRA don't have an affiliate base to reach out to directly. Hopefully Andy & Warren have spoken to Andrew Beveridge or Tex Rees and made them aware of how they can help with that because the last thing we need is internal disagreements over procedures and processes right now. Also, if AGD/CAP clash with eCOGRA that will be potentially detrimental to affiliates now that eCOGRA have decided to assist in representing them. Unity is what is needed now.

I also wouldn't mind betting that GP don't have the affiliate contact details anymore, or else what you suggest Dom would be an obvious action.

I expect AGD and CAP will email/PM their members to let them know of the claim process anyway so hopefully that will help reach far and wide.

One thing I am pleased to see is that eCOGRA have got lawyers involved in this. I have alread had two emails from the law firm. It would be great if the experience of CAP and AGD can be used to assist in the process.

Seeing as everyone is indulging in a little speculation here, I'll add my 2 cents by noting CAP's return from the reputation dustbin - could it be that it is seeking to rehabilitate itself by bringing off a GP coup? And is now discomfited because a more professional solution has been commissioned?

Memories are short in the affiliate world it would appear. I'm not sure I would want to involve CAP in a sensitive project like this after the embarrassing and unprofessional management shenanigans, breathtaking arrogance and monopolistic tendencies we saw earlier this year.

I'm truly surprised that AGD has allied itself with CAP in apparently already trying to cast shadows on the credibility of the eCOGRA investigation. I would hope that Andy, who's affiliate watchdog activities in the past deserve great respect, independently engages with eCOGRA with constructive suggestions before slamming the initiative on his website and seeking to turn affiliates away from what could well be a fair and reasonable solution by fair and reasonable (eCOGRA) people.

Judging by recent history, I doubt there are altruistic motivations for CAP's involvement here.

In my opinion the bottom line is that an organisation that has the professional skills, extensive auditing experience, commitment and, yes, independence too, has been engaged to achieve the best possible resolution of an extremely ugly affair for which GP has been deservedly condemned.

It is a pity that we are apparently yet again seeing affiliate politics and in-fighting rear its unpleasant head.

 

[dominique]

It has nothing to do with the reputation dustbin - the fact was that no one had been able to establish contact with GP in a year. And Warren still had a contact, and while he was hesitant (fearing exactly a reaction such as this) I pushed for it.

Once the contact was established, an organization with a perfect track record was needed, and AGD was contated.

There are no alignments, AGD was happy to pick up the ball and do what it always does - look out for affiliate rights.

It's that simple.

The issue here is GP, not whether Tom, Dick or Harry established contact for AGD.

Warren knew it would cause a lot of low blows directed at him, and he still acted in the best interest of affiliates.

Usually I count on you to be a voice of reason, Jetset, and I hope this time too, you will be able to stick to the actual issue, the contacting of all affiliates who may have been affected.

That is the issue, and turning this into some mud slinging contest is not in the interest of anyone, not GP, not Microgaming (who was also on board re. AGD) not eCOGRA, and most definitely not the affected affiliates.

So can we please focus on rational, impartial problem resolution?

 

[Simmo!]

While these talks were still in progress, out of the blue over the weekend, came the ecogra press release.

Affiliates were completely side stepped.

One has to wonder: "why???"

So eCOGRA were unaware that AGD/CAP were preparing something and AGD/CAP were unaware eCOGRA were planning something. So what? Things like this happen and it's no-one's fault. Or are you saying AGD/CAP informed eCOGRA they were planning something but they went ahead anyway?

Regardless, politics aside, eCOGRA moved first and hopefully CAP/AGD will offer them some help where they need it: offering to contact their affiliate members being a good start. Andy's not the type to start playing politics about who should have done what or who gets the credit - he's exactly the sort of person that eCOGRA could use and affiliates will want involved.

One thought: AGD/CAP have spoken to GP about getting the list of their affiliates, and presumably from reading the PR reached agreement to use it: they should let eCOGRA know that this information is available because it sounds like GP possibly weren't as open with eCOGRA on that front.

 

[dominique]

Contact with eCOGRA has been established, but nothing came of it. The press release came as a total surprise.

My only thought is that GP, Microgaming and eCOGRA are not properly familiar with the function and reputation of AGD in the affiliate industry.

AGD is always impartial and factual, and is a perfect organization to cooperate in efforts and look out for the affiliate side of things. The involvement of AGD would have gone a very long way in establishing affiliate trust in the proceedings.

 

[dominique]

BTW there was an issue with securing a properly independent auditing firm, and eCOGRA was included in conversations because of this.

eCOGRA was a less than perfect solution merely because of it's close relationship with microgaming and GP, not because of it's auditing capabilities.

For that reason, AGD involvement would have been instrumental in making sure everything was being done in the pure interest of making things right by affiliates.

Contacting ALL GP affiliates is the most important aspect that was sidestepped.

Giving forum revellers two weeks to file a claim is not an appropriate outreach to the injured parties out there.

 

[kwblue]

This is Andy from AGD, of course Sorry I did not post earlier, just caught this thread this morning after a long night of trying to fix the heat in my house (still broken)

Anyway - I certainly am not trying to disparage eCogra. I hope it does not come across in that manner. I have no problem with any organization fighting for affiliate rights. The more, the merrier

I do believe that their plan of action thus far needs to be tailored into a proper investigative path, however, which is why I put the outline of what our plan was to be within the content of my post at AGD. It was not meant to be 'political', but more of a 'Here is what happened - what's the move forward' type of post.

I am one of those people, like many of you, who posts first.... and then reads my own posts later.... and then thinks: 'I could have worded that better'

So - my apologies if it came off the wrong way. My goal (as it has always been) is to help affiliates even when it costs me money. I've done that quite a bit over the years and this is just me being me.


So - no political.... no bs... just talk:

I want eCogra to succeeed for ALL former Grand Prive affiliates. I want ALL former GP affiliates to be contacted like they would had their been a class action lawsuit.

If all affiliates are not contacted - then I simply cannot forgive Grand Prive's past actions. I'll be happy for those affiliates who got their due, of course, but that won't earn Grand Prive's respect back.

 

[Simmo!]

One thought: AGD/CAP have spoken to GP about getting the list of their affiliates, and presumably from reading the PR reached agreement to use it: they should let eCOGRA know that this information is available because it sounds like GP possibly weren't as open with eCOGRA on that front.

Contacting ALL GP affiliates is the most important aspect that was sidestepped.

If all affiliates are not contacted - then I simply cannot forgive Grand Prive's past actions. I'll be happy for those affiliates who got their due, of course, but that won't earn Grand Prive's respect back.

Hey Andy,

Re. the above quotes, any chance that you could get the list of affiliates from GP and give it to eCOGRA? That would cover the angle.

As for GP getting the respect of affiliates back...that's gonna take a lot more than this I think.

 

[dominique]

GP has settled on eCOGRA and they need to hash this out among themselves, unless they do want the participation of the AGD.

Affiliate involvement has been effectively severed.

 

[Simmo!]

Affiliate involvement has been effectively severed.

Do you mean eCOGRA have been contacted and they said they don't want any assistance? Or do you mean that because eCOGRA made the first announcement everyone else is opting to sit it out Dom?

I trust Andy, but CAP's involvement, comments saying affiliates are being "sidestepped" and involvement is being "severed", coupled with one or two terms used in the PR, I'm starting to get this uneasy feeling that there is a bit of political manouevering going on here. In fact, come to think of it, why was there even a need for a PR? I hope I'm wrong.

If CAP and AGD have contacted eCOGRA and been rebuffed then fair enough. But there's only a few days left to act if the organisations are going to help each other. No good moaning after the event...the time to act if someone WANTS to act is before the 21st.

 

[dominique]

Do you mean eCOGRA have been contacted and they said they don't want any assistance?

This is the case.

I can't speak for Andy or Warren, but cooperation was and still is the idea.

It's about affiliates, not organizations. The goal is to create a fair solution for all affected affiliates, and nothing else.

 

[Simmo!]

Do you mean eCOGRA have been contacted and they said they don't want any assistance?

This is the case.

That's a shame. I would have expected them to ask for AGD/CAP to send out mass Emails/PM's to cast a wider net at least. And it sounds like AGD/CAP had agreement from Grand Prive to use their database - they shouldn't have turned that offer down.

I'll chat to Bryan and see if he can talk to eCOGRA on monday.

 

[dominique]

I truly hope that for once politics can be put aside and a common goal can be pursued by everyone affected, be that various affiliate organizations or GP, Microgaming and eCOGRA.

Everyone wants the same thing here - resolution of the payment issue.

This situation has the potential of setting a precendent - a very positive precedent of the industry working together towards a common goal.

Let's do it! Let's fix things instead of destroying things. It's about time we all came together when we have a common goal.

 

[mojo]

That's a shame. I would have expected them to ask for AGD/CAP to send out mass Emails/PM's to cast a wider net at least. And it sounds like AGD/CAP had agreement from Grand Prive to use their database - they shouldn't have turned that offer down.

I'll chat to Bryan and see if he can talk to eCOGRA on monday.

Do you think with Bryans help and the first order of biz we could get the 21st deadline extended first and foremost? I am worried for the affs that will not make the deadline.

Dom - I did get two mails in my webmaster mail from ecogra. The first was the press release and the 2nd was the claim link. Joe didn't get either. I think this is due to the fact that I had previously signed up for ecogras newsletters where joe had not. In other words, contact mails went out to only those who already were on ecogras mailing list. Not GP's aff data which is unacceptable of course. Especially with a short deadline!

Hope that helps.

 

[Simmo!]

Do you think with Bryans help and the first order of biz we could get the 21st deadline extended first and foremost? I am worried for the affs that will not make the deadline.

Worth asking.

In other words, contact mails went out to only those who already were on ecogras mailing list. Not GP's aff data which is unacceptable of course. Especially with a short deadline!

It sounds to me like GP have not offered this info up to eCOGRA and only to CAP/AGD. Andy: can you or Warren step in and help resolve that one possibly?

 

[dominique]

I don't know that it was offered, it was on the negotiating table when suddenly the eCOGRA announcement appeared. Negotiations came to an abrupt stop at that time.

 

[kwblue]

ok...... I'm getting a little tired of my transparency being called 'PR'. There was no press release at all and all I did was speak the truth and offer up what has taken place behind the scenes so that everyone is on the same page (i.e., Transparency).

I know that transparency is not all that common in this industry - but let's not confuse it with something it is not. It is not a political statement and it is not a press release. It is a statement of facts.

eCogra will do the right thing and contact everyone possible. I have no list to give them. But you can bet that eCogra, if they have access to 'raw data' will have that.

If they do not have access to 'raw data' then this is all a moot issue.

 

[RobWin]

Worth asking.

It sounds to me like GP have not offered this info up to eCOGRA and only to CAP/AGD. Andy: can you or Warren step in and help resolve that one possibly?

It does seem though that if eCOGRA wanted to do a thorough job of this by being extremely attentive to accuracy and detail then this would be one of the first things they would ask for from GP IMO...That's just good business!
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[Simmo!]

It does seem though that if eCOGRA wanted to do a thorough job of this by being extremely attentive to accuracy and detail then this would be one of the first things they would ask for from GP IMO...
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Asking for it is one thing, but getting it is another entirely.