Play 'n go - Different RTP at different sites!

[CompleteFailure]

I'm not commenting on rtp because i have and others have so it'd be beating a dead horse.
I'm saying I think player perspectives and expectations, combined with changes in what's being put out - by casinos and player demand, have changed

Fair enough, what do you think about the argument that as a industry matures the consumer price and profit margins are driven downwards? Why is this not happening in the gambling industry?

 

[trancemonkey]

Ok, so you think it's mostly illusion combined with a trend towards higher volatility. And you are not commenting on changes to RTP.
Interesting about the trend towards higher volatility, I would have thought the opposite given the move towards fixed lines.

Fixed lines has nothing to do with volatility...

Yes, on a game with selectable lines, the lower the lines, thev higher the volatility, but I can make a game with any number of lines and have any volatility I want for that game...

 

[CompleteFailure]

Fixed lines has nothing to do with volatility...

Yes, on a game with selectable lines, the lower the lines, thev higher the volatility, but I can make a game with any number of lines and have any volatility I want for that game...

Why have providers fixed the lines of games that previously were configurable? My guess was that the casinos requested this cause they wanted to reduce the volatility.
Anyway, in general do you think there has been a change in volatility offered?

 

[bebo67]

Not all casinos put the rtp in their help section, but they should. After closing my account with VS, that left HOJ. I was miffed when I found out their rtp was 93-96% as a casino. I sent an email asking what their rtp on Gemix is, and waiting to hear back from Playnblow. If I find out that it's below 94% ( my gut is telling me it's not going to be good) I don't know what I'm going to do My gambling days have pretty well come to a halt, that is why I am not out here anymore, but wouldn't it be great to stick my foot up their butts and get any money back! Ohhhhh I would love to!

 

[Harry_BKK]

That is not an example, it is the ONLY WAY what you say can be true and it requires that the top win to be extremely rare and take more than 12% of the RTP (as per your example for offered RTP versions).

Although it does matter how they do it, there is no way you won't suffer from it. It is simple math.

Well, let's stay with BoD.

On the 96% version, the 5,000x rate is 1:37,500,000 spins as the excerpt below shows.

Now reduce that to 1:75,000,000 and you've got your RTP reduction without affecting the rest of the gameplay. Again, 99.9999999999% of players won't notice the difference except the one in 37.5 million as he/she won't get the 5,000x win. You could go much lower than that if needed.

Hyperwins are typically 2 - 4% of the RTP



There are many ways how you can increase/reduce/shift RTP. Have an educated guess how much the RTP portion is for the scatters pays on DoA? There is a lot you can shift around without players noticing much.

On DoA2, they shifted appr. 2.5% of the RTP from the base game to the free spins to cover for the additional Hyperwins. You can see it in the base game because you hit more often wins with royals than with premiums compared to DoA.

*17.4%

 

[Harry_BKK]

Yeah, who want those top-wins anyway.
But for real tho, no matter how they change it, 94% is worse than 96%.

It is also true that you probably wont notice much of a difference, depending on how they have reduced it (like you said, less chance for topwin)
But i will always encourage people to play with the highest rtp offered. There are so many sites offering non-reduced versions of all slots, so there is really no reason to ever play them at a site that uses a lower rtp-setting.

Fully agree, always try to play the version with the highest RTP.

However, we will see more slots in the future being released with 95 - 96% RTP as the default. That is preparing us to go to 94 - 95% within the next year or two. They are just trying to do it gently, so you won't have too much of an uproar among players. My opinion only, but in the last few weeks I had quite a few Blueprint and Red Tiger Gaming slots that were below 96% which is unusual.

 

[Harry_BKK]

You sound like a typical shill who can't follow an argument or remember key facts. Remember, one of the key facts: Some of the brands authorized by Playngo do not even show any RTP in the help file and will refuse to provide that info when asked.

Thanks for your "compliment".

Play'n GO does not authorize brands, they simply supply the games as a provider and per the customer's requests.

All casinos licenced by the UKGC, Swedish Spelinspektionen, MGA, DGA and a few other jurisdictions will display the RTP in the help file. You can report them if they don't.

Curacao, Costa Rica and other banana licenses don't require it, and the casinos do not have to provide it.

 

[goatwack]

It's a tired analogy but let's go back to the bag of marbles....9 black, one white
You can reach in and pull out a win (white)
but so can the next person; the white isnt removed from the bag, but put back in
edit - i see Kroffe responded

It's a good analogy for sure, but I need to clarify a couple of things.

1) What if the bag has holes in it/ is made of paper

2) How big are your balls

 

[Kroffe]

Fully agree, always try to play the version with the highest RTP.

However, we will see more slots in the future being released with 95 - 96% RTP as the default. That is preparing us to go to 94 - 95% within the next year or two. They are just trying to do it gently, so you won't have too much of an uproar among players. My opinion only, but in the last few weeks I had quite a few Blueprint and Red Tiger Gaming slots that were below 96% which is unusual.

Yeah, i noticed the Dragon fire megaways and Golden leprechaun has something like 95,72%
Sneaky bastards.

 

[Harry_BKK]

I get that but if said math and RTP is measured over lets say 1 million spins and those 1 million spins have say 10 mega and 100 big wins. If 2 years ago 100 people were in that pool of spins now 200 people then surely my chance is reduced?

I guess it depends on the pool of spins and how its distributed on the servers? BOD may have done 1 mill spins a day whereas now its 5 mill. How would that affect our chances?

Please Harry or Trancemonkey, if your not tired of repeating yourselves, help my feeble mind comprehend?

Found this:

Another growing segment of the gambling industry is online. The global market size of online gambling was forecasted to reach over 59 billion U.S. dollars in 2020, growing by around 20 billion U.S. dollars in just five years. The largest share of this industry segment is made up of casino gambling and sports betting

Will try to explain it.

- 10 players do 1 million spins and you have 10 mega/100 big wins
- if now 100 players start spinning they would do 10x more spins - 10 million spins - and the number for the wins would increase accordingly to 100 mega/1,000 big wins

The number of players hitting a slot won't make a difference. Maybe in that one split of a second when the RNG for a hyperwin comes up. If there are 10 players who pressed spin at that moment you have a chance of 1:10 to be "the chosen one" but if 100 players have pressed spin then your chance is only 1:100.

In the long run, it won't make a difference because more players means more spins and more mega/big wins.

BTW, with 1 or 5 million spins/day on BOD you are way off the mark. It is more like 10x the latter number.

 

[nikantw]

Well, let's stay with BoD.

On the 96% version, the 5,000x rate is 1:37,500,000 spins as the excerpt below shows.

Now reduce that to 1:75,000,000 and you've got your RTP reduction without affecting the rest of the gameplay. Again, 99.9999999999% of players won't notice the difference except the one in 37.5 million as he/she won't get the 5,000x win. You could go much lower than that if needed.

Hyperwins are typically 2 - 4% of the RTP

View attachment 115644

There are many ways how you can increase/reduce/shift RTP. Have an educated guess how much the RTP portion is for the scatters pays on DoA? There is a lot you can shift around without players noticing much.

On DoA2, they shifted appr. 2.5% of the RTP from the base game to the free spins to cover for the additional Hyperwins. You can see it in the base game because you hit more often wins with royals than with premiums compared to DoA.

*17.4%

The reason I reacted to the first post is that it was like you are saying that nobody will notice any RTP reduction.

Of course I agree with this one, where you are saying that "it is possible for providers to reduce the RTP of HV slots by up to 2% without most people noticing much difference." *

* I summarized it properly

 

[Harry_BKK]

Yeah, i noticed the Dragon fire megaways and Golden leprechaun has something like 95,72%
Sneaky bastards.

Eye of Horus Megaways to be released by Blueprint in November has an RTP of 95.02%.

also

The Pig Wizard Megaways - 95.75%
Wish Upon a Leprechaun Megaways - 95.50%

Red Tiger released or coming soon:

Fruit Snap: 95.75%
Mystery Reels Power Reels: 95.67%
Dragon's Luck Megaways - 95.69%
Da Vinci's Mystery Super Lines - 95.67%

The trend is not clear yet but there are more and more creeping up with an RTP below 96%. I doubt it is a pure coincidence.

 

[bebo67]

Eye of Horus Megaways to be released by Blueprint in November has an RTP of 95.02%.

also

The Pig Wizard Megaways - 95.75%
Wish Upon a Leprechaun Megaways - 95.50%

Red Tiger released or coming soon:

Fruit Snap: 95.75%
Mystery Reels Power Reels: 95.67%
Dragon's Luck Megaways - 95.69%
Da Vinci's Mystery Super Lines - 95.67%

The trend is not clear yet but there are more and more creeping up with an RTP below 96%. I doubt it is a pure coincidence.

Makes you want to fly to these casino's and just hand them your money. At least you are getting something for it. Exp. Trip....

 

[sufferinsilence]

Eye of Horus Megaways to be released by Blueprint in November has an RTP of 95.02%.

also

The Pig Wizard Megaways - 95.75%
Wish Upon a Leprechaun Megaways - 95.50%

Red Tiger released or coming soon:

Fruit Snap: 95.75%
Mystery Reels Power Reels: 95.67%
Dragon's Luck Megaways - 95.69%
Da Vinci's Mystery Super Lines - 95.67%

The trend is not clear yet but there are more and more creeping up with an RTP below 96%. I doubt it is a pure coincidence.

Seasoned players are going to bow out if RTP becomes lower and volatility goes through the roof. It's going to be like playing the lottery or buying a scratcher... No wonder most people prefer the old favorites and rarely mix it up throwing newer slots into the mix. New players won't be returning if they get shafted on their first deposit either. I'm not sure if this is the way to go, you want returning customers instead of them getting disillusioned on their first try.

 

[trancemonkey]

But how would that make sense?
Lets say there were a "pot" of winnings the slot took from. More players spinning would mean bigger pot, would it not?
Now, hush, before Harry or Trancemonkey finds out we have been talking about these kinds of things.

The kind of games you are talking about are games that work on a ticket pool system (Category B4A in the UK, Washington state in the US, and very few others I can think of). However, i dont know any provider that does this online or would allowed to be in any of the regulated markets...

Every spin has to have the same chance of every outcome.

Why have providers fixed the lines of games that previously were configurable? My guess was that the casinos requested this cause they wanted to reduce the volatility.
Anyway, in general do you think there has been a change in volatility offered?

I think you failed to read the bit where I said lines has nothing to do with volatility.

Casinos didn't ask for fixed lines ..

The reason we use fixed lines is because its much easier to do the maths for the games that way

 

[trancemonkey]

Why have providers fixed the lines of games that previously were configurable? My guess was that the casinos requested this cause they wanted to reduce the volatility.
Anyway, in general do you think there has been a change in volatility offered?

And as a second point, and answer to you question, players have a huge say in the way volatility goes...
If players don't play the volatile games, providers don't make them.
The more people play the volatile games, the more we make them.

It's simple really.

And casinos don't necessarily WANT volatile games, as they can lead to a very volatile casino economy, which is not good for the casino.
Casinos prefer less-volatile economies, although the bigger the casino, the more volatility they can handle...

 

[lotusch]

Fixed lines has nothing to do with volatility...

Yes, on a game with selectable lines, the lower the lines, thev higher the volatility, but I can make a game with any number of lines and have any volatility I want for that game...

Yeah I used to play Pimped and Masquerade with just 1 win line trying to get the feature.
Instead of 10 lines - 20c per line, just 1 or 2 Euro spins with 1 win line as the feature guarantees a win on every spin.
I always tried to figure out how it would affect the game play and volatility of the slot.

I must say above gave me some really big hits, 4 OAK premiums already pay huge and if lucky with a few retriggers it would be a very juicy bonus round.
Had better results this way than playing it on full lines with lower line bets.

 

[CompleteFailure]

Yeah I used to play Pimped and Masquerade with just 1 win line trying to get the feature.
Instead of 10 lines - 20c per line, just 1 or 2 Euro spins with 1 win line as the feature guarantees a win on every spin.
I always tried to figure out how it would affect the game play and volatility of the slot.

I must say above gave me some really big hits, 4 OAK premiums already pay huge and if lucky with a few retriggers it would be a very juicy bonus round.
Had better results this way than playing it on full lines with lower line bets.

I received very good bonus offers to play on playngo slots. Looked at the help file and sure enough no RTP stated. Guess I can assume it's the 89% version.

 

[CompleteFailure]

The kind of games you are talking about are games that work on a ticket pool system (Category B4A in the UK, Washington state in the US, and very few others I can think of). However, i dont know any provider that does this online or would allowed to be in any of the regulated markets...

Every spin has to have the same chance of every outcome.

I think you failed to read the bit where I said lines has nothing to do with volatility.

Casinos didn't ask for fixed lines ..

The reason we use fixed lines is because its much easier to do the maths for the games that way

"Fixed lines has nothing to do with volatility..."
Number of lines are related to volatility of course. Less lines means more volatility. So your statement was inaccurate. But yes, I get what you mean. Of course you can make a new slot game with fixed lines and high volatility. But let's not quibble.

Microgaming and Netent went out of their way to create fixed line version of many of their popular slots. They did not do this because the math was easier. The games were already done. The casinos must have requested them and I imagine it was in order to reduce volatility. Or was there another reason?

 

[CompleteFailure]

Fully agree, always try to play the version with the highest RTP.

However, we will see more slots in the future being released with 95 - 96% RTP as the default. That is preparing us to go to 94 - 95% within the next year or two. They are just trying to do it gently, so you won't have too much of an uproar among players. My opinion only, but in the last few weeks I had quite a few Blueprint and Red Tiger Gaming slots that were below 96% which is unusual.

Can we know what the real RTP is? Can we be sure that the RTP in the help file matches the game being played? I don't have much faith that Playngo, Red Tiger, etc. would make this foolproof.

 

[CompleteFailure]

Thanks for your "compliment".

Play'n GO does not authorize brands, they simply supply the games as a provider and per the customer's requests.

All casinos licenced by the UKGC, Swedish Spelinspektionen, MGA, DGA and a few other jurisdictions will display the RTP in the help file. You can report them if they don't.

Curacao, Costa Rica and other banana licenses don't require it, and the casinos do not have to provide it.

Playngo authorizes brands to use their games. Use your head.

 

[samdog21]

Play and go is definitely tied the rope on many games but different sites big time I love vikingruinfeild on vs its gone from good rtp to absolutely shit. But ojo I was rockin it last week at 1.50$ spin hit the feature 3 times. Vs I had an rtp on vikingruinfeild last year at 97% now it don't register lol

 

[hhhelllo]

The danish version if the 4th new one

Maybe there are more versions still unknown since curacao liscenced games doesnt show rtp.

Play it at mga liscenced places. The only place not shy about their 92% dead versions is any genesis joint aka the company that takes security so seriously... that developped an obsession with notarized pictures, haircuts and and straignt up lies. Never tried this fun safe envionnement. Lower rtp is less stressful as a bonus.

I feel the exact same difference on any mga liscense quickspin slots. Eastern emerald : 97% over 40 000 spins on n1 and paradise.
40% rtp on any curacao casino with the dead.slow laggy version.

Ever tried ancient fortunes or tomb raider with the jackpot when there is an error message showing when you open the help section to look at rtp? Don't tell me these 2 games arent configurable.

It even worst than betsoft slots

 

[CompleteFailure]

Play N Go lets all their casino providers choose from 3 different RTP's from their casino porfolio.

Its something like this (numbers are circa!) 89% / 94% / 97%. Then slots are around that number.

One big reason for why operators would need to change RTP depending on country, is due to high taxes in different countries. If tax is too high, the casino need to lower RTP to earn more to be able to pay the taxes.

Has anyone seen the 89% stated in a help file?
Funny that they are shy to state it since according to some posters on this forum who don't think it's a big deal say: players either don't know or it doesn't make a big difference to play anyway.

Here are my top 5 search results for "book of the dead rtp."
1. slotwise.com - 94.17
2. slotcatalog.com - around 96%
3. askgamblers.com - unknown
4. pokernews.com - 96.21
5. yummyspins.com - "impressive RTP of 96.21%"

Virtually no players are aware of this insanely low 89% version and probably all would assume that the RTP is whatever they saw on affiliate sites if they saw it missing from the help file. They wouldn't guess that Playngo is making horrible versions of the popular slot. Only tinfoil hatters on here would have guessed that!