Online Roulette RNG

[14 man]

Hello am new to this site, but here we go, I have been playing Roulette for a lot of years and enjoy the game based on its pure randomness. The chances of hitting the number straight up are low but man it is good when you do. I have played several online casinos, 888, 32 red, casino.com. All of these i have been able to cash out decent amounts. Again all of these casinos paid me within days. Have absolutly no problem with that. I am however curious about the RNG. I was wondering if anyone else has wondered if these online roulette games are more like a slot machine than true random roulette. My reason for this is that on a slot machine i would expect to see the pay line almost always line up, but never quite get there. This is for thrills and spills i guess, give the feeling of (I alsmost got it) lets try again. I have absulutly no promlem with this concept as this is how slots work. They pay a percetage out at some time. Roulette on the other hand is purely random game so anything could happen. Is would be possable for a roulette wheel to pay absulutly nothing for ages and still be fair. Then again could pay heaps and heaps, no real percentage of payout to follow. When i play i usually play one or 2 numbers only. Generaly 14 and 7. When i play the numbers that seem to be drawn the most are 31, 20, 13, 15, or 28, 29, 8, 6. This i could understand if it was a slot but not on roulette. So my question is to weather RNG roulette are opperated more like a slot than a truely random roulette wheel. This seems to happen more with the higher the bet also, Today i was playing $200 straight up on 14 and 7. In 20 spins i got this result. 15,13,20,29,6,4,10,8,31,31,5,12,31,18,9,8,20,11,1,13. I then logged off. LOL. I have had some good wins, 70k plus so i am not saying that you cannot win but i am questioning the randomness of the numbers drawn. If this result was only every now and again i would say hey how unlucky was that, but this seems to be very,very common. I have played at land based casinos where i am betting 200 straight up and it keeps landing beside me so i know that it can and does happen, but more times than not it will land all over the place. As i have said i have had good cash outs and am not trying to be a bad losser, just want to know your opinion.

 

[Nifty29]

Hello am new to this site, but here we go, I have been playing Roulette for a lot of years and enjoy the game based on its pure randomness. The chances of hitting the number straight up are low but man it is good when you do. I have played several online casinos, 888, 32 red, casino.com. All of these i have been able to cash out decent amounts. Again all of these casinos paid me within days. Have absolutly no problem with that. I am however curious about the RNG. I was wondering if anyone else has wondered if these online roulette games are more like a slot machine than true random roulette. My reason for this is that on a slot machine i would expect to see the pay line almost always line up, but never quite get there. This is for thrills and spills i guess, give the feeling of (I alsmost got it) lets try again. I have absulutly no promlem with this concept as this is how slots work. They pay a percetage out at some time. Roulette on the other hand is purely random game so anything could happen. Is would be possable for a roulette wheel to pay absulutly nothing for ages and still be fair. Then again could pay heaps and heaps, no real percentage of payout to follow. When i play i usually play one or 2 numbers only. Generaly 14 and 7. When i play the numbers that seem to be drawn the most are 31, 20, 13, 15, or 28, 29, 8, 6. This i could understand if it was a slot but not on roulette. So my question is to weather RNG roulette are opperated more like a slot than a truely random roulette wheel. This seems to happen more with the higher the bet also, Today i was playing $200 straight up on 14 and 7. In 20 spins i got this result. 15,13,20,29,6,4,10,8,31,31,5,12,31,18,9,8,20,11,1,13. I then logged off. LOL. I have had some good wins, 70k plus so i am not saying that you cannot win but i am questioning the randomness of the numbers drawn. If this result was only every now and again i would say hey how unlucky was that, but this seems to be very,very common. I have played at land based casinos where i am betting 200 straight up and it keeps landing beside me so i know that it can and does happen, but more times than not it will land all over the place. As i have said i have had good cash outs and am not trying to be a bad losser, just want to know your opinion.

So, you're saying it's all fair and random when you WIN, but it is totally rigged like a slot when you LOSE.

Right.

I don't see anything in those results that suggest it is non-random. If you think it is not random, and it appears you do, then why do you keep playing?

If what you say i.e. the near miss happens EVERY time...then you might have a point. If it happens SOMETIMES/OFTEN...then it means...well nothing. It either works like you say or it does not...having it work like that only sometimes makes no sense.

When you have your documented results for the past 6 months containing tens of thousands (or more) of draws and your corresponding bet, then come back and post them and someone will analyse them for you.

Threads like this are started by someone who just lost 99.99% of the time. Why do you think that nobody posts a complaint that they won too many times in a row or that their number just kept on hitting and they couldn't seem to lose? THink about that one.

 

[14 man]

So, you're saying it's all fair and random when you WIN, but it is totally rigged like a slot when you LOSE.

Right.

I don't see anything in those results that suggest it is non-random. If you think it is not random, and it appears you do, then why do you keep playing?

If what you say i.e. the near miss happens EVERY time...then you might have a point. If it happens SOMETIMES/OFTEN...then it means...well nothing. It either works like you say or it does not...having it work like that only sometimes makes no sense.

When you have your documented results for the past 6 months containing tens of thousands (or more) of draws and your corresponding bet, then come back and post them and someone will analyse them for you.

Threads like this are started by someone who just lost 99.99% of the time. Why do you think that nobody posts a complaint that they won too many times in a row or that their number just kept on hitting and they couldn't seem to lose? THink about that one.

It is a wonder why people do post things when you get such a agressive and arogant responce. I was asking for thougts not ridicule. If i follow your suggestion i should not question anything and play for 6 months and doccument the results, then after tens of thousand of spins then i would be welcome to post a question. As for saying threads like this are started by people that loose 99.9 percent of the time is complete rubish. I already stated that i have done ok from roulette. I was only questioning to if they are set up more like a slot and that would explain why the numbers seem to fall beside my bets as it would be done for visual effects only.

 

[Cogge]

I find people questioning RNGs based on "personal experience" funny. A human could never notice if a RNG was rigged (except if you rigg it to never pay out).

What I mean is, all of the larger online Casino suppliers, like Netent, Playtech, Microgaming etc etc... are third party tested by eCogra, TST, etc... as well as by the licensing authority LGA/Gib/IoM/Etc (some probably take third party testing as proof though).

These companies run millions upon millions of runs of the RNG, and come to the conclusion that it's not fixed.

Most companies also tend realize the fact that there's no need to rig the games, people lose anyway, and a happy customer comes back.

Ps. It's highly likely that it's the same RNG running on all games from a supplier, so if the Roulette RNG is rigged, so are all other tables games, slots and whatnot from that supplier.

 

[Rick Deckard]

ONE SIMPLE SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM

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"A digital signature is a mathematical scheme for demonstrating the authenticity of a digital message or document. A valid digital signature gives a recipient reason to believe that the message was created by a known sender, such that the sender cannot deny having sent the message (authentication and non-repudiation) and that the message was not altered in transit (integrity). Digital signatures are commonly used for software distribution, financial transactions, and in other cases where it is important to detect forgery or tampering."


One online casino is already using this method (as a check sum) to give full confidence in it's software games. The question is why isn't anyone else?

This got me thinking that maybe the meister forum members could start a petition to ask the regulators such as Alderney (AGCC) and Gibraltar (GLA) to promote the use of digital signatures of the RNG in online casinos in their jurisdictions, in order to give peace of mind to players of ALL computer simulated gambling games such as Slots, Roulette and Blackjack.

Also it would stop a lot of arguing and monolithic debates on the integrity of online RNG gambling games.

 

[quber]

Hi 14 man,

First of all the slots don't work to give near misses to make it look you nearly won, the UK pub slots do but not normal slots, they work on a totally random spin. If the paytable is worked correctly then there is no need to rig it.

Same with Roulette, if the RNG is totally random then the house will win 2.7%, Land based casinos have been making loads of money over the last 4 to 500 years with this system so why change it? if you fiddle with these figures then players would soon move somewhere else and your profits would dwindle. It is better to play fair and keep players for years than fiddle and keep them for a few weeks.

 

[bigjohn]

It is a wonder why people do post things when you get such a agressive and arogant responce. I was asking for thougts not ridicule. If i follow your suggestion i should not question anything and play for 6 months and doccument the results, then after tens of thousand of spins then i would be welcome to post a question. As for saying threads like this are started by people that loose 99.9 percent of the time is complete rubish. I already stated that i have done ok from roulette. I was only questioning to if they are set up more like a slot and that would explain why the numbers seem to fall beside my bets as it would be done for visual effects only.

I believe the main reason threads like this are squelched quickly and aggressively, unless you have definitive evidence, is to keep the forum as a whole from deteriorating into a place where industry reps. would fear to tread.

There are certain topics that can trigger a shit-storm and if you choose to pursue those topics you better buckle up!

Also, the RNG (random number generator) just spits out numbers, it doesn't know or care if those numbers are going to a slot, a roulette wheel, or video poker. How those numbers are used is determined by the casino software.

 

[rockycatt]

I believe the main reason threads like this are squelched quickly and aggressively, unless you have definitive evidence, is to keep the forum as a whole from deteriorating into a place where industry reps. would fear to tread.

There are certain topics that can trigger a shit-storm and if you choose to pursue those topics you better buckle up!

Also, the RNG (random number generator) just spits out numbers, it doesn't know or care if those numbers are going to a slot, a roulette wheel, or video poker. How those numbers are used is determined by the casino software

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John could you please expand on the red colored sentence
thanks in advance R C

 

[catapultaudio]

ONE SIMPLE SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM

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"A digital signature is a mathematical scheme for demonstrating the authenticity of a digital message or document. A valid digital signature gives a recipient reason to believe that the message was created by a known sender, such that the sender cannot deny having sent the message (authentication and non-repudiation) and that the message was not altered in transit (integrity). Digital signatures are commonly used for software distribution, financial transactions, and in other cases where it is important to detect forgery or tampering."


One online casino is already using this method (as a check sum) to give full confidence in it's software games. The question is why isn't anyone else?

I think the 'casino' being referenced here is the quasi-gaming facility that works via bitcoin and is 'provably fair' because the algorithm works on a part of the bitcoin itself as input, in such a way that after you place your bet and they reveal their part of the 'secret' which is going to then be matched with the half in your bitcoin, you can run the maths yourself just as they are doing to decide if you win or not, hence you can be sure you have not been ripped off.. and this is the only way I can see a digital signature being of use in proving that a casino is not cheating, as a signature as described in your text above only verifies the integrity of the data being sent/received (like the padlock on a secure site in your browser) - the casino can still return any bad results it likes, but as long as you receive that bad result intact the digital signature test will be successful but prove absolutely nothing...

Possibly if casinos implemented the output of a 'true random number generator' (eg. based on radioactive decay), and used a digital certificate to prove that the program is using this data to create the result, that would be possible.. and cool!

 

[catapultaudio]

It is a wonder why people do post things when you get such a agressive and arogant responce. I was asking for thougts not ridicule. If i follow your suggestion i should not question anything and play for 6 months and doccument the results, then after tens of thousand of spins then i would be welcome to post a question. As for saying threads like this are started by people that loose 99.9 percent of the time is complete rubish. I already stated that i have done ok from roulette. I was only questioning to if they are set up more like a slot and that would explain why the numbers seem to fall beside my bets as it would be done for visual effects only.

Mate, when I first joined here I noticed a lot of threads being answered quite sharply and it was initially a little offputting, but if you stick around a few weeks you'll start to understand why - theres a WHOLE LOT of people like yourself drop by, complain the roulette/blackjack/[insert game here] "feels" rigged, with little or no evidence, then refuse to accept any of the mountain of evidence it is not rigged.. and people just tire of reading this same thing day in day out. So don't think it is personal because it definitely isn't, if anything people just want you to realise as quickly as possible that what you are saying is extremely, extremely unlikely, and the facts (not a gut feeling after a bad session) should convince you as such.

The numbers you posted look as "random" as any others - why are they "near" your bets? It's random, remember - those numbers were just as likely as any others on the table. The table didn't know your chips were nearby when it picked those numbers, sure you could say it's a bit of a co-incidence, but if you try (not even that hard) I'll bet you can point out a pattern of some kind in your roulette results EVERY SINGLE SESSION of one kind or another. Give it a try on free play !

 

[Rick Deckard]

I think the 'casino' being referenced here is the quasi-gaming facility that works via bitcoin and is 'provably fair' because the algorithm works on a part of the bitcoin itself as input, in such a way that after you place your bet and they reveal their part of the 'secret' which is going to then be matched with the half in your bitcoin, you can run the maths yourself just as they are doing to decide if you win or not, hence you can be sure you have not been ripped off.. and this is the only way I can see a digital signature being of use in proving that a casino is not cheating, as a signature as described in your text above only verifies the integrity of the data being sent/received (like the padlock on a secure site in your browser) - the casino can still return any bad results it likes, but as long as you receive that bad result intact the digital signature test will be successful but prove absolutely nothing...

Possibly if casinos implemented the output of a 'true random number generator' (eg. based on radioactive decay), and used a digital certificate to prove that the program is using this data to create the result, that would be possible.. and cool!

I was referring to betvoyager casino and my bad as I thought the latest digital signatures all use a SHA hash function/cryptograpic hash functions for the integrity of the data in it. The paragraph I quoted I can see doesn't explain properly as you said though if you read the page on the wiki digi signatures link I put up with the paragraph, it was mean't to provide more in depth info about it.


You mentioned a True RNG would be cool. BV use one in their casino using a quantum physics photon ray gun well thats a bit of an exaggeration but close enough. More about that at idquantique .com


The set up these guys below use is what I was trying to explain could be a solution like the quasi guys yo mentioned are maybe doing something similar

quoted from www. betvoyager .com/randomness/

" The checksum for each sequence is unique. It is virtually impossible to find two sequences with identical checksums. Therefore, the SHA-256 algorithm is generally applied for the confirmation of the authenticity of information and for forming digital signatures. "

 

[bigjohn]

I believe the main reason threads like this are squelched quickly and aggressively, unless you have definitive evidence, is to keep the forum as a whole from deteriorating into a place where industry reps. would fear to tread.

There are certain topics that can trigger a shit-storm and if you choose to pursue those topics you better buckle up!

Also, the RNG (random number generator) just spits out numbers, it doesn't know or care if those numbers are going to a slot, a roulette wheel, or video poker. How those numbers are used is determined by the casino software

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John could you please expand on the red colored sentence
thanks in advance R C

I'd love to.

As far as I know a typical RNG will return a decimal value between 0.00000001 and 1. For example 0.35278951 or 0.99499291.

In a simple example like a single dice with six possible outcomes the software would take the result from the RNG, multiply it by 6 then round it up to the next higher whole number. This would yield a random number from 1 to 6 which would then be assigned to a particular outcome. So if the final result was 2 the software might show a 2 on that roll.

If the software wanted a certain number to come up more often, for whatever reason, the result from the RNG could be divided by 7, rounded up and the result would be a random number between 1 and 7, you would then assign an extra result to whatever event you wanted more often like this; if the result from the RNG calculations is 1 show a 1 on the dice, if the result is 2 or 3 show a 2 on the dice, if the result is 4 show a 3 on the dice, if the result is 5 show a 4 on the dice etc. This way the dice would be weighted to come up to show a 2 more often.

Same with a deck of cards, take the decimal from the RNG, multiply it by 52 (for 52 cards), round it up and you get 52 random outcomes. Each card in the deck would be associated with a number between 1 and 52 so maybe if the result was 27 it would be translated as a Jack of clubs.

Multiply the decimal from the RNG by 37, round up and there is the roulette wheel.

BTW, using the dice example above, there is no reason a 4 could not be rolled 16 times in a row, or a 3 not showing up for many rolls, it's random.

 

[LaHutti]

I only have one comment: You should have played # 31 and # 13

 

[catapultaudio]

I was referring to betvoyager casino and my bad as I thought the latest digital signatures all use a SHA hash function/cryptograpic hash functions for the integrity of the data in it. The paragraph I quoted I can see doesn't explain properly as you said though if you read the page on the wiki digi signatures link I put up with the paragraph, it was mean't to provide more in depth info about it.

Hi mate,

I checked out betvoyager and it is very cool, it is not actually SHA that is used to protect the player in this instance, any encryption algorithm could be used, SHA was chosen for its current high level of security. It works like this: The result of the game (eg Roulette, "31") is chosen *before* the player places a bet - this result is encrypted with SHA and made available to you immediately. You then place your bets, and the values associated with this are added to the SHA data, which now contains the entire wager, IE, bets, amounts, and result, and the final packet is made available to you. Because you have the initial result packet, and you know the exact bets you placed, you can combine this data to ensure it matches the final outcome, which cannot be manipulated because the end result is dependent on the data chosen BEFORE you placed a bet.

So, you bet £10 on red, and the game gives you a packet which (unknown to you) says the result is RED, the game cannot possibly then deliver a BLACK result, because if you compute your £10 on red plus the value you were given before you placed a bet, it will not match the final result unless the ball is indeed on RED ... I hope that makes sense, it is difficult to explain, and whilst it doesn't actually guarantee randomness as such, it does guarantee you are getting a fair game, and I totally agree that is something that would be cool to see everywhere.

 

[Nifty29]

I'd love to.

As far as I know a typical RNG will return a decimal value between 0.00000001 and 1. For example 0.35278951 or 0.99499291.

In a simple example like a single dice with six possible outcomes the software would take the result from the RNG, multiply it by 6 then round it up to the next higher whole number. This would yield a random number from 1 to 6 which would then be assigned to a particular outcome. So if the final result was 2 the software might show a 2 on that roll.

If the software wanted a certain number to come up more often, for whatever reason, the result from the RNG could be divided by 7, rounded up and the result would be a random number between 1 and 7, you would then assign an extra result to whatever event you wanted more often like this; if the result from the RNG calculations is 1 show a 1 on the dice, if the result is 2 or 3 show a 2 on the dice, if the result is 4 show a 3 on the dice, if the result is 5 show a 4 on the dice etc. This way the dice would be weighted to come up to show a 2 more often.

Same with a deck of cards, take the decimal from the RNG, multiply it by 52 (for 52 cards), round it up and you get 52 random outcomes. Each card in the deck would be associated with a number between 1 and 52 so maybe if the result was 27 it would be translated as a Jack of clubs.

Multiply the decimal from the RNG by 37, round up and there is the roulette wheel.

BTW, using the dice example above, there is no reason a 4 could not be rolled 16 times in a row, or a 3 not showing up for many rolls, it's random.

If an operator did what you suggest, it would create a pattern....and patterns can be exploited by the player.

It would not take long for data analysis to reveal that "2" consistently comes up more than it should. The operator would be cleaned out by each and every player who tracks their results. Its ludicrous.

Anyone who thinks that operators cheat in this fashion....and cheating is exactly what it is....requires an immediate shiny hat fitting.

 

[bigjohn]

If an operator did what you suggest, it would create a pattern....and patterns can be exploited by the player.

It would not take long for data analysis to reveal that "2" consistently comes up more than it should. The operator would be cleaned out by each and every player who tracks their results. Its ludicrous.

Anyone who thinks that operators cheat in this fashion....and cheating is exactly what it is....requires an immediate shiny hat fitting.

I can't argue with your basic conclusion but your method of getting your point across, frankly, stinks. Again, you only saw the part that supports you personal POV. I think you are a good guy and I appreciate what you do here but you should really consider not always presenting yourself as such a dick.

 

[rockycatt]

um I see john got here to explain its over my head

 

[Nifty29]

I can't argue with your basic conclusion but your method of getting your point across, frankly, stinks. Again, you only saw the part that supports you personal POV. I think you are a good guy and I appreciate what you do here but you should really consider not always presenting yourself as such a dick.

Pot calling the kettle black methinks.

 

[bigjohn]

If the software wanted a certain number to come up more often, for whatever reason, the result from the RNG could be divided by 7, rounded up and the result would be a random number between 1 and 7, you would then assign an extra result to whatever event you wanted more often like this; if the result from the RNG calculations is 1 show a 1 on the dice, if the result is 2 or 3 show a 2 on the dice, if the result is 4 show a 3 on the dice, if the result is 5 show a 4 on the dice etc. This way the dice would be weighted to come up to show a 2 more often.

If an operator did what you suggest, it would create a pattern....and patterns can be exploited by the player.

It would not take long for data analysis to reveal that "2" consistently comes up more than it should. The operator would be cleaned out by each and every player who tracks their results. Its ludicrous.

Anyone who thinks that operators cheat in this fashion....and cheating is exactly what it is....requires an immediate shiny hat fitting.

In the example I made above it would not be cheating if the odds of rolling a 2 were correctly represented by said establishment and that particular dice was part of a game designated as a 'dice slot'. Like I said before, just seeing what you want and twisting things around to fit your personal agenda.

BTW, aren't you supposed to be trying to figure out how to drive your car or something?

 

[Nifty29]

In the example I made above it would not be cheating if the odds of rolling a 2 were correctly represented by said establishment and that particular dice was part of a game designated as a 'dice slot'. Like I said before, just seeing what you want and twisting things around to fit your personal agenda.

BTW, aren't you supposed to be trying to figure out how to drive your car or something?

You did not make that clear...you're only "clarifying" it now because I showed the flaws in your argument.

If the odds were correctly represented, then what's the issue?

You were trying to say that operators can "fiddle with" the numbers in the background to produce "dodgy" results. Well, at least that's what your argument has been all along i.e. that operators can (and perhaps do) "rig" games even though the RNG might be quite sound. As I said earlier, if I even suspected that for a second, I would never play again...as I have the courage of my convictions. It is EXTREMELY rare for the "It's rigged I tells ya" or "It's probably rigged I tells ya but I play anyway" Club Members to back their conspiracy theories/delusions up with action. I would expect people to think there was something amiss with me if I just kept on playing in the knowledge that I am/could be being taken for a ride.

The only thing I am trying to figure out is what size hat to order for you (Oh..that and how I am able to post in this forum even though I am not sure exactly how it is coded up.....)

 

[bigjohn]

You did not make that clear...you're only "clarifying" it now because I showed the flaws in your argument.

If the odds were correctly represented, then what's the issue?

You were trying to say that operators can "fiddle with" the numbers in the background to produce "dodgy" results. Well, at least that's what your argument has been all along i.e. that operators can (and perhaps do) "rig" games even though the RNG might be quite sound. As I said earlier, if I even suspected that for a second, I would never play again...as I have the courage of my convictions. It is EXTREMELY rare for the "It's rigged I tells ya" or "It's probably rigged I tells ya but I play anyway" Club Members to back their conspiracy theories/delusions up with action. I would expect people to think there was something amiss with me if I just kept on playing in the knowledge that I am/could be being taken for a ride.

The only thing I am trying to figure out is what size hat to order for you (Oh..that and how I am able to post in this forum even though I am not sure exactly how it is coded up.....)

There were no 'flaws' in my argument and there were no 'issues' raised.

I was answering another posters request about how software can use the result from the RNG. That's all. You are the one who saw some kind of conspiracy theory in what I had posted.

Instead of following me around breakin' my balls why don't you start a new thread in the attic entitled, "Why I think Bigjohn is a POS and deserves no respect" and I'll answer you there and maybe we can resolve this problem that you have with me.

 

[Cleveland]

Instead of following me around breakin' my balls why don't you start a new thread in the attic entitled, "Why I think Bigjohn is a POS and deserves no respect" and I'll answer you there and maybe we can resolve this problem that you have with me.

I'm fairly certain he doesn't think you deserve no respect. He is just direct and blunt in his point of views. I find it refreshing actually. We have a guy at work that's referred to as Angry Loyd. Same type of personality. You always know where you stand when dealing with him on any topic, and he is actually a very nice / friendly guy. Some just don't understand his nature (the directness), but he is one of my closest co-workers. I go to him with most problems I encounter because I know he will tell it like it is, and not try to sugar coat anything, or go with the status quo simply because everyone else is.

Once you separate the topic of discussion from the person, you realize the person is actually very friendly.

 

[Nifty29]

I'm fairly certain he doesn't think you deserve no respect. He is just direct and blunt in his point of views. I find it refreshing actually. We have a guy at work that's referred to as Angry Loyd. Same type of personality. You always know where you stand when dealing with him on any topic, and he is actually a very nice / friendly guy. Some just don't understand his nature (the directness), but he is one of my closest co-workers. I go to him with most problems I encounter because I know he will tell it like it is, and not try to sugar coat anything, or go with the status quo simply because everyone else is.

Once you separate the topic of discussion from the person, you realize the person is actually very friendly. ..

Angry Lloyd. LOL. I would be too if my name started with LL.

Anyway, all I have done is counter bigjohns arguments. He has decided to take it personally.

It should be noted that it was HE who told me (in public) that my "method of getting my point across stinks" and that I "present myself as a dick". I think it's more than a little hilarious that he would then accuse me of being disrespectful. Name-calling etc is the last resort of the desperate person who is bereft of any decent argument.

Be that as it may, I'm not going to clog up this thread with any more stuff about bigjohn or anyone else. Let's just get back to the topic so others can share their views about whether roulette is rigged/works like a slot/whatever.

 

[catapultaudio]

I'd love to.

As far as I know a typical RNG will return a decimal value between 0.00000001 and 1. For example 0.35278951 or 0.99499291.

In a simple example like a single dice with six possible outcomes the software would take the result from the RNG, multiply it by 6 then round it up to the next higher whole number. This would yield a random number from 1 to 6 which would then be assigned to a particular outcome. So if the final result was 2 the software might show a 2 on that roll.

If the software wanted a certain number to come up more often, for whatever reason, the result from the RNG could be divided by 7, rounded up and the result would be a random number between 1 and 7, you would then assign an extra result to whatever event you wanted more often like this; if the result from the RNG calculations is 1 show a 1 on the dice, if the result is 2 or 3 show a 2 on the dice, if the result is 4 show a 3 on the dice, if the result is 5 show a 4 on the dice etc. This way the dice would be weighted to come up to show a 2 more often.

Same with a deck of cards, take the decimal from the RNG, multiply it by 52 (for 52 cards), round it up and you get 52 random outcomes. Each card in the deck would be associated with a number between 1 and 52 so maybe if the result was 27 it would be translated as a Jack of clubs.

Multiply the decimal from the RNG by 37, round up and there is the roulette wheel.

BTW, using the dice example above, there is no reason a 4 could not be rolled 16 times in a row, or a 3 not showing up for many rolls, it's random.

I just wanted to add a few notes on this from a software developers point of view, when I see talk of a 'typical RNG' I can't help but wonder if there is a misconception that an RNG is some kind of box or piece of equipment, dedicated to producing random numbers for use in these games. This really isn't the case and I cannot imagine there is much software around that works in the way you have described above.

Take the common high level languages of the web as example, IE Java, PHP, Actionscript(Flash), and random numbers are usually available as a function call within the programming language. A 'salt' option is usually available, which is a way of providing a random value (usually, a microsecond value of the precise moment the number is requested so 15:28:22.847362836 for example, much too precise for a human to try and choose which particular microsecond to hit the button if they wanted to influence the result...). Other than the 'salt' parameter, you usually just ask for a number between 0 and x, which is then returned by the RNG built into the language.

Many programmers will enhance these built in random number functions, perhaps as part of their own programming toolkit or just as part of the application they are building. So literally getNumber(0,36) to get a roulette result again for example.

In the case of a deck of cards, I normally build a whole shoe in memory. You can then shuffle the whole 'shoe' and each index number will then refer to a different card.. a very simple procedure and you can then just ask for getNumber(0,Size of Shoe).

Anyway my point really is that there is no magic RNG box, application or otherwise outputting these numbers which then need to be interpreted in software in order to be used the right way.. at least in my experience, it is done the other way around, a number is generated within the necessary range.

 

[bigjohn]

I just wanted to add a few notes on this from a software developers point of view, when I see talk of a 'typical RNG' I can't help but wonder if there is a misconception that an RNG is some kind of box or piece of equipment, dedicated to producing random numbers for use in these games. This really isn't the case and I cannot imagine there is much software around that works in the way you have described above.

Take the common high level languages of the web as example, IE Java, PHP, Actionscript(Flash), and random numbers are usually available as a function call within the programming language. A 'salt' option is usually available, which is a way of providing a random value (usually, a microsecond value of the precise moment the number is requested so 15:28:22.847362836 for example, much too precise for a human to try and choose which particular microsecond to hit the button if they wanted to influence the result...). Other than the 'salt' parameter, you usually just ask for a number between 0 and x, which is then returned by the RNG built into the language.

Many programmers will enhance these built in random number functions, perhaps as part of their own programming toolkit or just as part of the application they are building. So literally getNumber(0,36) to get a roulette result again for example.

In the case of a deck of cards, I normally build a whole shoe in memory. You can then shuffle the whole 'shoe' and each index number will then refer to a different card.. a very simple procedure and you can then just ask for getNumber(0,Size of Shoe).

Anyway my point really is that there is no magic RNG box, application or otherwise outputting these numbers which then need to be interpreted in software in order to be used the right way.. at least in my experience, it is done the other way around, a number is generated within the necessary range.

As I understood it, the raw output from any RNG is a decimal value. If you bypass the OS of any computer (they all have their own built in RNG) and ask it directly for a random number you will get a decimal value over 0 up to 1. I believe any other result you get is a convenience of whatever particular programming language you using.

My only programming experience was with Basic and Assembly Language. I'm kinda old school and there are newer programming languages that I am not familiar with but I don't think the internal methods of computers have changed much.

 

[14 man]

Mate, when I first joined here I noticed a lot of threads being answered quite sharply and it was initially a little offputting, but if you stick around a few weeks you'll start to understand why - theres a WHOLE LOT of people like yourself drop by, complain the roulette/blackjack/[insert game here] "feels" rigged, with little or no evidence, then refuse to accept any of the mountain of evidence it is not rigged.. and people just tire of reading this same thing day in day out. So don't think it is personal because it definitely isn't, if anything people just want you to realise as quickly as possible that what you are saying is extremely, extremely unlikely, and the facts (not a gut feeling after a bad session) should convince you as such.

The numbers you posted look as "random" as any others - why are they "near" your bets? It's random, remember - those numbers were just as likely as any others on the table. The table didn't know your chips were nearby when it picked those numbers, sure you could say it's a bit of a co-incidence, but if you try (not even that hard) I'll bet you can point out a pattern of some kind in your roulette results EVERY SINGLE SESSION of one kind or another. Give it a try on free play !

Thanks Catapultaudio, fair call

 

[14 man]

I only have one comment: You should have played # 31 and # 13

to true, funny

 

[14 man]

Thanks to all for all the comments, i will admit a lot of it went over my head when it comes to the specific working of the software. Hey I enjoy playing a game were a little white ball flys around and lands in a slot and am i willing to put money on it, so obviosly not the sharpest tool in the shed lol. I did however read an article about online roulette seeming like the numbers your not betting on come up so much. The basis of this was due to the speed that online roulette is played. Land based casino roulette run at approx 1 spin per 3 minites, so that will result in 20 spins per hour. Compare that to appox 3 spins per minute with online roulette getting 180 results in a hour and all of a sudden the number you do not want seems to be drawn way to often. Purely based on the amount of numbers generated i mean. That does explain why i see them so much beside me but did make sense as to why it seem to be so often. , Guess it just is what it is. One of the question was why do i still play, because in my post i stated that you can win, i just wanted to know that when a number lands beside me i can be confident and say well that was bad luck, not you SOB your cheating. LOL

 

[incrediblestuff]

Thanks to all for all the comments, i will admit a lot of it went over my head when it comes to the specific working of the software. Hey I enjoy playing a game were a little white ball flys around and lands in a slot and am i willing to put money on it, so obviosly not the sharpest tool in the shed lol. I did however read an article about online roulette seeming like the numbers your not betting on come up so much. The basis of this was due to the speed that online roulette is played. Land based casino roulette run at approx 1 spin per 3 minites, so that will result in 20 spins per hour. Compare that to appox 3 spins per minute with online roulette getting 180 results in a hour and all of a sudden the number you do not want seems to be drawn way to often. Purely based on the amount of numbers generated i mean. That does explain why i see them so much beside me but did make sense as to why it seem to be so often. , Guess it just is what it is. One of the question was why do i still play, because in my post i stated that you can win, i just wanted to know that when a number lands beside me i can be confident and say well that was bad luck, not you SOB your cheating. LOL

You could of course switch to the live roulette section of your favourite Casinos, or if they don't have it switch to another,
These are just like the real thing, plus, the ladies are pretty
And don't forget to stick to the accredited casinos, and keep reading the forum!
Just my 2 ct..

 

[skiny]

I was betting on 26 which just happens to be right beside number 3 on the roulette wheel. The only problem is there is no roulette wheel which makes it rather hard for the ball that doesn't exist either to land right beside it.

I've had discussions in this forum about online roulette and the quirky way these games play out. It's kind of difficult around here to say "this is odd" without it being interpreted as "this is cheating" but that's the assumption that's usually drawn. I maxed out the number 26 last week and it showed up on the number board 3 times at once. This time it landed "beside it" 3 times on the board. If it was cheating today, it must have been cheating in my favour last week.

If you really work with random numbers you'll see how unpredictable and weird these things play out. I've written many flash programs that use random numbers including a classic 3 reel slot game and I was almost finished a 5 reel video slot game when my old hard drive crashed. I never recovered the data. I told the story before about how I ran my first (high speed, text only) test on the classic reel slot game with 15000 to 1 odds of hitting the jackpot and I hit it within the first 10 spins. Then I ran it for hundreds of thousands of "spins" and never hit it again. That's random numbers for you.

It's usually not quite so obvious when playing slot games because there are multiple reels instead of just one number but it happens just the same. If one of the reels lands in the same position twice in a row it is noticeable. I'm sure we've all seen it many times and never thought much of it. When a roulette "ball" lands in the same place twice we think "twice in a row? Really?" Realistically the odds of the roulette number being the same twice are probably better than the odds of the slot real doing it. (I'm just guessing.) It's just more noticeable when you're looking at a single number.

I came here once and said I just surrounded a number on the center line of the roulette table and hit every single number on that line except the one I surrounded. Of course some people said I was accusing the game of cheating but I thought it was worth mention. When a RNG does oddball things for or against you it doesn't automatically mean something dishonest is happening but it does mean something interesting is happening. I see it often enough but I don't really bother mentioning it anymore. Mostly out of laziness. I can't be bothered after the 2 line post, the 10 page debate that follows about whether or not I'm accusing the casino of cheating.

I'm more than happy to have a 10 page debate. I'd just rather it was about something more important than a roulette ball.