1. By continuing to use the site, you agree to the use of cookies .This website or its third-party tools use cookies, which are necessary to its functioning and required to achieve the purposes illustrated in the cookie policy.Find out more.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Follow Casinomeister on Twitter | Facebook | YouTube | Casinomeister.us US Residents Click here! |  Svenska Svenska | 
Dismiss Notice
REGISTER NOW!! Why? Because you can't do diddly squat without having been registered!

At the moment you have limited access to view most discussions: you can't make contact with thousands of fellow players, affiliates, casino reps, and all sorts of other riff-raff.

Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join Casinomeister here!

Online Roulette RNG

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by 14 man, Aug 30, 2013.

    Aug 30, 2013
  1. 14 man

    14 man Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    Australia
    Hello am new to this site, but here we go, I have been playing Roulette for a lot of years and enjoy the game based on its pure randomness. The chances of hitting the number straight up are low but man it is good when you do. I have played several online casinos, 888, 32 red, casino.com. All of these i have been able to cash out decent amounts. Again all of these casinos paid me within days. Have absolutly no problem with that. I am however curious about the RNG. I was wondering if anyone else has wondered if these online roulette games are more like a slot machine than true random roulette. My reason for this is that on a slot machine i would expect to see the pay line almost always line up, but never quite get there. This is for thrills and spills i guess, give the feeling of (I alsmost got it) lets try again. I have absulutly no promlem with this concept as this is how slots work. They pay a percetage out at some time. Roulette on the other hand is purely random game so anything could happen. Is would be possable for a roulette wheel to pay absulutly nothing for ages and still be fair. Then again could pay heaps and heaps, no real percentage of payout to follow. When i play i usually play one or 2 numbers only. Generaly 14 and 7. When i play the numbers that seem to be drawn the most are 31, 20, 13, 15, or 28, 29, 8, 6. This i could understand if it was a slot but not on roulette. So my question is to weather RNG roulette are opperated more like a slot than a truely random roulette wheel. This seems to happen more with the higher the bet also, Today i was playing $200 straight up on 14 and 7. In 20 spins i got this result. 15,13,20,29,6,4,10,8,31,31,5,12,31,18,9,8,20,11,1,13. I then logged off. LOL. I have had some good wins, 70k plus so i am not saying that you cannot win but i am questioning the randomness of the numbers drawn. If this result was only every now and again i would say hey how unlucky was that, but this seems to be very,very common. I have played at land based casinos where i am betting 200 straight up and it keeps landing beside me so i know that it can and does happen, but more times than not it will land all over the place. As i have said i have had good cash outs and am not trying to be a bad losser, just want to know your opinion.
     
  2. Aug 30, 2013
  3. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
    So, you're saying it's all fair and random when you WIN, but it is totally rigged like a slot when you LOSE.

    Right.

    I don't see anything in those results that suggest it is non-random. If you think it is not random, and it appears you do, then why do you keep playing?

    If what you say i.e. the near miss happens EVERY time...then you might have a point. If it happens SOMETIMES/OFTEN...then it means...well nothing. It either works like you say or it does not...having it work like that only sometimes makes no sense.

    When you have your documented results for the past 6 months containing tens of thousands (or more) of draws and your corresponding bet, then come back and post them and someone will analyse them for you.

    Threads like this are started by someone who just lost 99.99% of the time. Why do you think that nobody posts a complaint that they won too many times in a row or that their number just kept on hitting and they couldn't seem to lose? THink about that one.
     
  4. Aug 30, 2013
  5. 14 man

    14 man Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    Australia
    It is a wonder why people do post things when you get such a agressive and arogant responce. I was asking for thougts not ridicule. If i follow your suggestion i should not question anything and play for 6 months and doccument the results, then after tens of thousand of spins then i would be welcome to post a question. As for saying threads like this are started by people that loose 99.9 percent of the time is complete rubish. I already stated that i have done ok from roulette. I was only questioning to if they are set up more like a slot and that would explain why the numbers seem to fall beside my bets as it would be done for visual effects only.
     
  6. Aug 30, 2013
  7. Cogge

    Cogge Accredited Casino Representative

    Occupation:
    Managing Director for CasinoEuro
    Location:
    Malta
    I find people questioning RNGs based on "personal experience" funny. A human could never notice if a RNG was rigged (except if you rigg it to never pay out).

    What I mean is, all of the larger online Casino suppliers, like Netent, Playtech, Microgaming etc etc... are third party tested by eCogra, TST, etc... as well as by the licensing authority LGA/Gib/IoM/Etc (some probably take third party testing as proof though).

    These companies run millions upon millions of runs of the RNG, and come to the conclusion that it's not fixed.

    Most companies also tend realize the fact that there's no need to rig the games, people lose anyway, and a happy customer comes back.

    Ps. It's highly likely that it's the same RNG running on all games from a supplier, so if the Roulette RNG is rigged, so are all other tables games, slots and whatnot from that supplier.
     
    1 person likes this.
  8. Aug 30, 2013
  9. Rick Deckard

    Rick Deckard Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    UK
    ONE SIMPLE SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM


    You must register/login in order to see the link.

    "A digital signature is a mathematical scheme for demonstrating the authenticity of a digital message or document. A valid digital signature gives a recipient reason to believe that the message was created by a known sender, such that the sender cannot deny having sent the message (authentication and non-repudiation) and that the message was not altered in transit (integrity). Digital signatures are commonly used for software distribution, financial transactions, and in other cases where it is important to detect forgery or tampering."


    One online casino is already using this method (as a check sum) to give full confidence in it's software games. The question is why isn't anyone else?

    This got me thinking that maybe the meister forum members could start a petition to ask the regulators such as Alderney (AGCC) and Gibraltar (GLA) to promote the use of digital signatures of the RNG in online casinos in their jurisdictions, in order to give peace of mind to players of ALL computer simulated gambling games such as Slots, Roulette and Blackjack.

    Also it would stop a lot of arguing and monolithic debates on the integrity of online RNG gambling games.
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. Aug 30, 2013
  11. quber

    quber Senior Member

    Occupation:
    spy
    Location:
    Europe
    Hi 14 man,

    First of all the slots don't work to give near misses to make it look you nearly won, the UK pub slots do but not normal slots, they work on a totally random spin. If the paytable is worked correctly then there is no need to rig it.

    Same with Roulette, if the RNG is totally random then the house will win 2.7%, Land based casinos have been making loads of money over the last 4 to 500 years with this system so why change it? if you fiddle with these figures then players would soon move somewhere else and your profits would dwindle. It is better to play fair and keep players for years than fiddle and keep them for a few weeks.
     
  12. Aug 30, 2013
  13. bigjohn

    bigjohn Meister Member MM PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    Swimming Pool Serviceman
    Location:
    Northeast Coastal USA
    I believe the main reason threads like this are squelched quickly and aggressively, unless you have definitive evidence, is to keep the forum as a whole from deteriorating into a place where industry reps. would fear to tread.

    There are certain topics that can trigger a shit-storm and if you choose to pursue those topics you better buckle up!

    Also, the RNG (random number generator) just spits out numbers, it doesn't know or care if those numbers are going to a slot, a roulette wheel, or video poker. How those numbers are used is determined by the casino software.
     
  14. Aug 30, 2013
  15. rockycatt

    rockycatt meistercatt CAG MM

    Occupation:
    carpenter
    Location:
    Boston
     
  16. Aug 30, 2013
  17. catapultaudio

    catapultaudio Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Computer Programmer
    Location:
    Leeds, UK
    I think the 'casino' being referenced here is the quasi-gaming facility that works via bitcoin and is 'provably fair' because the algorithm works on a part of the bitcoin itself as input, in such a way that after you place your bet and they reveal their part of the 'secret' which is going to then be matched with the half in your bitcoin, you can run the maths yourself just as they are doing to decide if you win or not, hence you can be sure you have not been ripped off.. and this is the only way I can see a digital signature being of use in proving that a casino is not cheating, as a signature as described in your text above only verifies the integrity of the data being sent/received (like the padlock on a secure site in your browser) - the casino can still return any bad results it likes, but as long as you receive that bad result intact the digital signature test will be successful but prove absolutely nothing...

    Possibly if casinos implemented the output of a 'true random number generator' (eg. based on radioactive decay), and used a digital certificate to prove that the program is using this data to create the result, that would be possible.. and cool!
     
    1 person likes this.
  18. Aug 30, 2013
  19. catapultaudio

    catapultaudio Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Computer Programmer
    Location:
    Leeds, UK
    Mate, when I first joined here I noticed a lot of threads being answered quite sharply and it was initially a little offputting, but if you stick around a few weeks you'll start to understand why - theres a WHOLE LOT of people like yourself drop by, complain the roulette/blackjack/[insert game here] "feels" rigged, with little or no evidence, then refuse to accept any of the mountain of evidence it is not rigged.. and people just tire of reading this same thing day in day out. So don't think it is personal because it definitely isn't, if anything people just want you to realise as quickly as possible that what you are saying is extremely, extremely unlikely, and the facts (not a gut feeling after a bad session) should convince you as such.

    The numbers you posted look as "random" as any others - why are they "near" your bets? It's random, remember - those numbers were just as likely as any others on the table. The table didn't know your chips were nearby when it picked those numbers, sure you could say it's a bit of a co-incidence, but if you try (not even that hard) I'll bet you can point out a pattern of some kind in your roulette results EVERY SINGLE SESSION of one kind or another. Give it a try on free play !
     
    2 people like this.
  20. Aug 30, 2013
  21. Rick Deckard

    Rick Deckard Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    UK

    I was referring to betvoyager casino and my bad as I thought the latest digital signatures all use a SHA hash function/cryptograpic hash functions for the integrity of the data in it. The paragraph I quoted I can see doesn't explain properly as you said though if you read the page on the wiki digi signatures link I put up with the paragraph, it was mean't to provide more in depth info about it.


    You mentioned a True RNG would be cool. BV use one in their casino using a quantum physics photon ray gun :) well thats a bit of an exaggeration but close enough. More about that at idquantique .com


    The set up these guys below use is what I was trying to explain could be a solution like the quasi guys yo mentioned are maybe doing something similar

    quoted from www. betvoyager .com/randomness/

    " The checksum for each sequence is unique. It is virtually impossible to find two sequences with identical checksums. Therefore, the SHA-256 algorithm is generally applied for the confirmation of the authenticity of information and for forming digital signatures. "
     
  22. Aug 30, 2013
  23. bigjohn

    bigjohn Meister Member MM PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    Swimming Pool Serviceman
    Location:
    Northeast Coastal USA
     
    1 person likes this.
  24. Aug 30, 2013
  25. LaHutti

    LaHutti Sr. ÜberUnter Ass. Man. webby PABnonaccred PABaccred

    Occupation:
    .
    Location:
    East and West
    I only have one comment: You should have played # 31 and # 13 :D
     
    1 person likes this.
  26. Aug 30, 2013
  27. catapultaudio

    catapultaudio Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Computer Programmer
    Location:
    Leeds, UK
    Hi mate,

    I checked out betvoyager and it is very cool, it is not actually SHA that is used to protect the player in this instance, any encryption algorithm could be used, SHA was chosen for its current high level of security. It works like this: The result of the game (eg Roulette, "31") is chosen *before* the player places a bet - this result is encrypted with SHA and made available to you immediately. You then place your bets, and the values associated with this are added to the SHA data, which now contains the entire wager, IE, bets, amounts, and result, and the final packet is made available to you. Because you have the initial result packet, and you know the exact bets you placed, you can combine this data to ensure it matches the final outcome, which cannot be manipulated because the end result is dependent on the data chosen BEFORE you placed a bet.

    So, you bet £10 on red, and the game gives you a packet which (unknown to you) says the result is RED, the game cannot possibly then deliver a BLACK result, because if you compute your £10 on red plus the value you were given before you placed a bet, it will not match the final result unless the ball is indeed on RED ... I hope that makes sense, it is difficult to explain, and whilst it doesn't actually guarantee randomness as such, it does guarantee you are getting a fair game, and I totally agree that is something that would be cool to see everywhere.
     
    3 people like this.
  28. Aug 31, 2013
  29. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
     
  30. Aug 31, 2013
  31. bigjohn

    bigjohn Meister Member MM PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    Swimming Pool Serviceman
    Location:
    Northeast Coastal USA
     
    1 person likes this.
  32. Aug 31, 2013
  33. rockycatt

    rockycatt meistercatt CAG MM

    Occupation:
    carpenter
    Location:
    Boston
    um I see john got here to explain its over my head
     
    1 person likes this.
  34. Aug 31, 2013
  35. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
     
  36. Aug 31, 2013
  37. bigjohn

    bigjohn Meister Member MM PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    Swimming Pool Serviceman
    Location:
    Northeast Coastal USA
    In the example I made above it would not be cheating if the odds of rolling a 2 were correctly represented by said establishment and that particular dice was part of a game designated as a 'dice slot'. Like I said before, just seeing what you want and twisting things around to fit your personal agenda.

    BTW, aren't you supposed to be trying to figure out how to drive your car or something?
     
  38. Aug 31, 2013
  39. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
    You did not make that clear...you're only "clarifying" it now because I showed the flaws in your argument.

    If the odds were correctly represented, then what's the issue?

    You were trying to say that operators can "fiddle with" the numbers in the background to produce "dodgy" results. Well, at least that's what your argument has been all along i.e. that operators can (and perhaps do) "rig" games even though the RNG might be quite sound. As I said earlier, if I even suspected that for a second, I would never play again...as I have the courage of my convictions. It is EXTREMELY rare for the "It's rigged I tells ya" or "It's probably rigged I tells ya but I play anyway" Club Members to back their conspiracy theories/delusions up with action. I would expect people to think there was something amiss with me if I just kept on playing in the knowledge that I am/could be being taken for a ride.

    The only thing I am trying to figure out is what size hat to order for you (Oh..that and how I am able to post in this forum even though I am not sure exactly how it is coded up.....)
     

Share This Page