Old Topic Revisited: WB Vs. Cipher???

[Gremmyboy]

When bored I often read through the old threads here or find a banned user and try and find out why they were banned(entertains me for some reason lol)

I was just wondering if anyone knew the outcome of this thread?

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/16265/

It took a while to read and ended with the thread being closed and the matter being dealt with behind the scenes through lawyers.

Does ayone know how it turned out in the end and what happened to Cipher?
I've seen WB post since I've joined about a casino owing money, etc... so know that he is still around.

Why is Ciphers account suspended and not banned?

Thanks in advance for any insight!
It was a good read but I feel like I've read a long novel and the final few pages were missing so have no closure on the story, frustrating!


Cheers
Gremmy

 

[The Dude]

Cipher was an active member - and at times a very informative and productive member, but he had the tendency of being overly abrasive. He was a real jerk with a serious anger issue. His account was suspended a couple of times before this incident. When this thread appeared, I didn't get involved until later; his account was suspended until he got back to me on what was going on between him and Westland Bowl. He never did get back to me so I guess I should finally ban him for good

 

[jetset]

What Bryan said - my recollection of this member was that he was touting some sort of system that was supposed to give the player a significant advantage - he was quite skilful if at times a little heavy handed in publicising his success. It was quite a talking point at the time.

BTW Westland Bowl has been back here recently - perhaps he can weigh in with more background on his specific issue?

 

[Westland Bowl]

Bruce Holway, aka Cipher, played successfully for years with online blackjack and sold a simple system that provided a visual layout of how your blackjack session is going with red blocks representing losses and pushes and with green blocks representing wins. Using various betting strategies depending on how your session (anywhere from 10 to 40 hands) has gone, you make a progression bet.

The key strategy was to do minimum bets when you are losing and make progression bets after wins so to win a session, you really only needed to have two wins in a row. Sometimes all you need is back and forth action ("Switchbacks") to do progressions with. Anyway, I have done well with this and saw it worked for me. Since Cipher played with big money and was very experienced in this style of betting, he offered to give a return on any money I gave him ($20,000). He gave back $2,400 the first month.

Since I didn't need the second month's money for my mother's care-taking expenses, I wanted the payouts to accumulate and make more money on top of that. Several months later, I needed that money but Cipher kept on stalling and stalling and never getting back with me on status of funds and that is when I called his bluff. I learned that a number of other people also where not getting paid by Cipher (one group gave $100,000) and I exposed him after I warned him he better pay up.

So the expose took many turns and spread over into Winner Online and Blackjack Info and Online Players Union forums. Those forums banned Cipher when he never answered direct questions from the forum owners and members. End result, I never got my money partly because I didn't have the money to take him to court. The district attorney where Cipher lives did not pursue it even though he said he would.

I later found out that Cipher's wife works as a court reporter on the floor above the district attorney and all these people knew each other. Figures. This whole story still didn't end there as a couple of years later the Heroes Casino owners said Cipher claimed I worked as a developer of Cipher's blackjack software! Cipher was a positive reviewer (shill?) of Heroes Casino. But using various betting strategies I learned from the Cipher system and merging other strategies with it, I won almost $40,000 from Heroes Casino and additional $20,000 from a number of other casinos until I hit a brick wall in November 2009.

The things I've seen online since then is another long story. But I'm out of online gambling now.

 

[BingoT]

A blast from the past 2009,
Cipher- The Wizard of BJ

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[Westland Bowl]

A blast from the past 2009,
Cipher- The Wizard of BJ

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Actually that is from early 2007. The Heroes Casino fiasco was from 2009.

 

[bpb]

But using various betting strategies I learned from the Cipher system and merging other strategies with it, I won almost $40,000 from Heroes Casino and additional $20,000 from a number of other casinos until I hit a brick wall in November 2009. The things I've seen online since then is another long story. But I'm out of online gambling now.

Are you still not willing to accept that Cipher's system didn't work at all? It was a glorified martingale system. The brick wall you hit wasn't due to online casinos "changing", but rather the fact that you can't overcome a negative game with any betting system.

Maybe I misread your intention, but your post doesn't seem to have the total condemnation of that filthy scammer Cipher that I would expect from someone who got taken by him.

 

[Westland Bowl]

Are you still not willing to accept that Cipher's system didn't work at all? It was a glorified martingale system. The brick wall you hit wasn't due to online casinos "changing", but rather the fact that you can't overcome a negative game with any betting system.

Maybe I misread your intention, but your post doesn't seem to have the total condemnation of that filthy scammer Cipher that I would expect from someone who got taken by him.

The Cipher system and Cipher are two different things. Cipher stole from me. The system still works for me in the real casinos. It's not Cipher's system anymore as I did my own modifications to suit me. Cipher himself ruined himself by getting greedy and scamming others.

i INSIST that the brick wall I hit IS DUE TO THE US-FACING ONLINE CASINOS CHANGING!

 

[Nifty29]

The Cipher system and Cipher are two different things. Cipher stole from me. The system still works for me in the real casinos. It's not Cipher's system anymore as I did my own modifications to suit me. Cipher himself ruined himself by getting greedy and scamming others.

i INSIST that the brick wall I hit IS DUE TO THE US-FACING ONLINE CASINOS CHANGING!

No system works in the long run. Not one...not his, not yours.

The brick wall you hit WAS the house edge. You can call it cheating software etc, but we all know the realities of playing games with negative expectation....even people pike yourself do, but admitting it means admitting defeat which is one thing system players find almost impossible to do I.e. its always something else that made them lose etc.

If systems like Cyphers worked, he would have kept winning and you would have kept being paid.

 

[bpb]

The Cipher system and Cipher are two different things. Cipher stole from me. The system still works for me in the real casinos. It's not Cipher's system anymore as I did my own modifications to suit me. Cipher himself ruined himself by getting greedy and scamming others.

i INSIST that the brick wall I hit IS DUE TO THE US-FACING ONLINE CASINOS CHANGING!

Wow ... just ... wow ...

People like you are the reason scammers exist.

 

[LaHutti]

Not the reply one would expect, from someone who was burned like that.
I realize that the guy stole your money, but doesn't it occur to you, that he probably lost the lot, due to the fact that the "system" doesn't work ?
What puzzles me too, is the fact that his duck (intentionally misspelled due to the holy season) wasn't tied to the exhaust of a red ferrari ... or a black porche......... you picture it....

 

[ksb11]

Bruce Holway, aka Cipher, played successfully for years with online blackjack and sold a simple system that provided a visual layout of how your blackjack session is going with red blocks representing losses and pushes and with green blocks representing wins. Using various betting strategies depending on how your session (anywhere from 10 to 40 hands) has gone, you make a progression bet.

The key strategy was to do minimum bets when you are losing and make progression bets after wins so to win a session, you really only needed to have two wins in a row. Sometimes all you need is back and forth action ("Switchbacks") to do progressions with. Anyway, I have done well with this and saw it worked for me. Since Cipher played with big money and was very experienced in this style of betting, he offered to give a return on any money I gave him ($20,000). He gave back $2,400 the first month.

Since I didn't need the second month's money for my mother's care-taking expenses, I wanted the payouts to accumulate and make more money on top of that. Several months later, I needed that money but Cipher kept on stalling and stalling and never getting back with me on status of funds and that is when I called his bluff. I learned that a number of other people also where not getting paid by Cipher (one group gave $100,000) and I exposed him after I warned him he better pay up.

So the expose took many turns and spread over into Winner Online and Blackjack Info and Online Players Union forums. Those forums banned Cipher when he never answered direct questions from the forum owners and members. End result, I never got my money partly because I didn't have the money to take him to court. The district attorney where Cipher lives did not pursue it even though he said he would.

I later found out that Cipher's wife works as a court reporter on the floor above the district attorney and all these people knew each other. Figures. This whole story still didn't end there as a couple of years later the Heroes Casino owners said Cipher claimed I worked as a developer of Cipher's blackjack software! Cipher was a positive reviewer (shill?) of Heroes Casino. But using various betting strategies I learned from the Cipher system and merging other strategies with it, I won almost $40,000 from Heroes Casino and additional $20,000 from a number of other casinos until I hit a brick wall in November 2009.

The things I've seen online since then is another long story. But I'm out of online gambling now.

Wow WB, that is a fascinating story. Thanks for the interesting info.

 

[Westland Bowl]

No system works in the long run. Not one...not his, not yours.

The brick wall you hit WAS the house edge. You can call it cheating software etc, but we all know the realities of playing games with negative expectation....even people pike yourself do, but admitting it means admitting defeat which is one thing system players find almost impossible to do I.e. its always something else that made them lose etc.

If systems like Cyphers worked, he would have kept winning and you would have kept being paid.

If your win rate in the first 50 hands of blackjack after you make a deposit always, ALWAYS, is below the 35% win rate, that is online casinos f**king with you! The win rate in normal blackjack is 43%. You should be able to get some decent wins in a row above 45% on SOME new deposits but I always, ALWAYS, hit the negative variance right from the start in EVERY fricking damn deposit since November 2009! That is fricking BS!

Once you get a reputation for being an advanced player, if your balance is around $200 and you make a bet size that is around 10% of your remaining balance, you will lose about 80% of your blackjack hands. Not 47%, not 60%, no, it is 80%. BS!

Some casinos have CONSISTENTLY made me lose double-downs on my progression bets as if they know which ones would be as such. Normal win rate on double-downs are about 55% but many of the online casinos I've played only allowed me to win about 40% of them. FT! Same story with splits. The ones I win are those during a losing streak when I would be betting minimum bets anyway. FT!

These are a few of the shit I experienced the past two years.

Cipher lost the money due to blowing on sports bets, not casino betting, according to a guy who worked with Cipher to develop the software further. He did well with blackjack but couldn't help himself to losing huge sportsbets where he didn't have a edge.

Wow ... just ... wow ...

People like you are the reason scammers exist.

 

[Westland Bowl]

Not the reply one would expect, from someone who was burned like that.
I realize that the guy stole your money, but doesn't it occur to you, that he probably lost the lot, due to the fact that the "system" doesn't work ?
What puzzles me too, is the fact that his duck (intentionally misspelled due to the holy season) wasn't tied to the exhaust of a red ferrari ... or a black porche......... you picture it....

Cipher lost the money due to big losses on sportsbets from what I heard.

 

[bpb]

I'll give you my personal guarantee that one day you'll hit the same "wall" in live casino play that you hit in online casino play. I'm curious as to what you'll blame your losses on when that happens. I'm sure you won't take any personal responsibility for them.

 

[Westland Bowl]

I'll give you my personal guarantee that one day you'll hit the same "wall" in live casino play that you hit in online casino play. I'm curious as to what you'll blame your losses on when that happens. I'm sure you won't take any personal responsibility for them.

Of course I will take personal responsibility for them in real casinos because I will SEE that the cards DID NOT move around in the live real shoe. The cards are right in front of me where I can see them UNLIKE the online casinos where you are supposed to trust them completely that they are dealing you an honest game.

Try asking a dealer in a real casino what he/she thinks of online casinos and they just shake their heads. Most of them don't believe online casinos deal a fair game..."It is so different."

 

[LaHutti]

Of course I will take personal responsibility for them in real casinos because I will SEE that the cards DID NOT move around in the live real shoe. The cards are right in front of me where I can see them UNLIKE the online casinos where you are supposed to trust them completely that they are dealing you an honest game.

Try asking a dealer in a real casino what he/she thinks of online casinos and they just shake their heads. Most of them don't believe online casinos deal a fair game..."It is so different."

Really...what did you expect them to say about the competition ?
Also, I don't think it's wise to publicly say that you, or anyone else, actually believe that any of these so called "systems" work.
Others may, wrongly, think you're right, and THAT would not be helpfull to them.
Ofcourse this is just my humble opinion.

 

[Simmo!]

Wow ... just ... wow ...

People like you are the reason scammers exist.

Although that is worded condescendingly IMO, there is a good point behind that. While there are players who believe a game of chance can be beaten there will always be opportunities for scammers. And I suspect there always will be.

On a more positive note, I think that it's good that Westland Bowl has quit online gambling because he believes that online casinos cheat. Personally, I don't think that's the case with the casinos using major software-platforms but I am constantly amazed by how many players pass through here with the same thoughts as Westland Bowl and then continue to play.

PS. To make people aware this is an old topic re-hashed, I have retitled this thread

 

[Gremmyboy]

Thanks for the answers everyone!
Didn't mean to pluck a raw nerve, didn't occur to me that t may be a sensitive issue still. sorry about that!

The thread was a great read though and kept me entertained for hours!

It's sad that WB didn't recieve any of his money back but positive that Cipher has been removed from most forums and can't trawl for marks anymore! Hopefully this means he is no longer online and scamming people!

You never know though when it comes to the internet?!?!

Cheers
Gremmy


Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all!