MG VP Autohold....how bad is it?

[VayCayMom]

I have played Jacks or better and a few other games after practicing with Winpoker to learn the best stragedy. I never played 10s or better until I played Microgaming video poker. I like to use autohold but with 10's or better the cards held at times made no sense to me.
So I programmed the numbers into Winpoker and then checked my autohold hands ( in practice mode) against what Winpoker suggested, I was pretty shocked. Lot's of holds were correct, but some were so far down the lists of the best cards to keep I almost think it is a attempt to totally deceive a player. Most of the auto holds were anywhere from 4th down the list on Winpoker all the way to 11th place!!!
At times I noticed an error on Jacks or better, this hand was played as if it were Double Bonus Poker, not JOB. That is a small error in terms of coins lost.
Anyone know how they arrive at the autohold hints they use?
I'd sure like to hear some input from others.


I feel like a dummy, like I have been drinking the KoolAid (if you know what that expression means)

 

[footdr]

I PRINTED OUT A STRATEGY FROM ONLINE SITE

I PRINTED OUT A STRATEGY guide from some popular video poker site(too long ago, can't remember name) followed it instead of auto hold, made no difference. I never, ever win consistently on vidoe poker slots.

The reason I started looking at these strategies was because I was just not good at playing vidoe poker, but I think no matter what, playing RIGHT may cut losses, but big wins are still pure luck

 

[JlSpitFirelC]

Yea

I agree. I am a low roller $1 - $7.50 or so, but I occasionally play at video poker. I can't say I have ever won anything substantial, but I also can't say I've played for longer than 20 minute sessions without thinking to myself, "I could be losing my money on slots which take more time rather than video poker which goes rather quickly."

I think it has to do with session length, but I am sure you've come to the same assumption. Longer playing sessions, better chances of hitting something worthwhile.

 

[Simmo!]

As an FYI, we have had a discussion on the MG auto-hold before regards VP and if memory serves, the examples of imperfect strategy given were disproved and the general concensus was that MG had it right.

The oddities I'd noticed were things like on Joker Poker, holding a joker and a 7 or something silly like that, but even that turned out to be correct based on the cards being discarded and the remaining options.

I'll try and find the thread...

 

[vinylweatherman]

Agree

I have to agree with the OP on this one. I recently played 10's or better, and something has changed. For example, the autohold holds two to a straight (unsuited) rather than discarding a hand of low cards. I am sure this was not always the case, and I am sure discarding the entire hand was the norm. MG have certainly updated something here, but whether it is correct is open to debate, although winpoker seems to be at odds with MG on this.

 

[Simmo!]

Hmm ok if it's changed then the old thread is irrelevant. Sounds like it needs some investigation

 

[Mousey]

Since I haven't been playing for money, I haven't been playing VP. (Talk about watching paint dry... LOL) I haven't even checked to see if MG has changed payouts. Just played a few hands of 10's on autohold -- even though I don't play 10oB very much I feel like something's hinky. And it could be that it isn't just 10oB that's been monkeyed with....

I've got to get ready for work, or I'd do some runs and check it against WinPoker myself. I'm sure you guys will have the numbers and screens by the time I get in from work.

Go get 'em!!

 

[VayCayMom]

I have to agree with the OP on this one. I recently played 10's or better, and something has changed. For example, the autohold holds two to a straight (unsuited) rather than discarding a hand of low cards. I am sure this was not always the case, and I am sure discarding the entire hand was the norm. MG have certainly updated something here, but whether it is correct is open to debate, although winpoker seems to be at odds with MG on this.

Holding 2 to a straight is just crazy but I have had many, many hands where a 10 and a face card OR three face cards are discarded and a random card like 6 is kept, or a 9 and an 8 etc. That is not quirky, that is just plain wrong, wrong , wrong.
Just from playing it on Winpoker a short while, the stragedy it seems should be very similar to JOB. In JOB I believe you never hold even cards 4 to a straight unless 3 of the cards are face cards. ( In this case 10 would count as a face card)

In JokerPoker, yes , keeping a random card with a Joker seems odd but that can be totally correct.

Yes, someone please investigate this !!

 

[thenmh]

I think that autohold is different than autoplay

 

[VayCayMom]

The way I understand it is that Autohold will select and hold the correct cards in the hand, all you need to do is hit the draw button. Some casinos do not have this function and you must analyze the hand and hit the hold button for each card you wish to hold. Other casinos use a method that only selects and holds the cards if it is a paying hand.
Autoplay I believe takes Autoplay one step further and holds the cards and then hits the draw button, completing the entire play without your involvement.

 

[Mousey]

Playing single hand (in play mode), max bet, $1 denom, at Big Dollar. 257 hands and nothing weird, yet. (Except that I'm winning like crazy. **sniffle** I miss playing for real.) I'll run some more hands later this evening ....


VayCay, if you (or anyone) get one of those weird autohold hands again, could you do a screenshot for us?

 

[VayCayMom]

you bet!!

 

[vinylweatherman]

Example

Here is an example of what is wrong. This is 2 to an unsuited straight autoheld, not even face cards. I even noticed it hold a single 7, and then a single face card while discarding the other.
It gets it right on the better hands, but fails lower down by holding when it should be discarding, It holds 2 to a straight flush even when the held cards are 3 apart! (such as 8 and Q suited).

 

[vinylweatherman]

Analyser

I have looked at the analysis for this autohold, and it thinks it is correct, but I would have thought the correct move to be to hold the 10 and K

 

[vinylweatherman]

One Up

I have just opened the single line version of 10's or better, and used the analyser to recreate the exact hand wrongly autoheld in the 4-UP example. In this case, the cards are the same, but quite a few of the analyser results are different, this is 100% evidence of a bug, else the figures at least would be identical for the same cards on the same paytable.

WTF are they playing at this month - this is beyond a joke. Can we really trust the rest of the software when we are told it is "OK" or we are "seeing patterns because that's how the brain is designed.........."
I am sure we will be told the autoholds are correct, and it is our less than comprehensive knowledge that makes us think otherwise, such as the oddities seen in the Joker wild games that at first seem odd choices to autohold.

Note - in this case, the correct selection has been made, holding the 10 and King (just as I suggested above).

 

[Mousey]

Defined a 10s or Better game into my Winpoker. Punched in the MG paytable. Punched in this hand. Here's Winpoker's analysis. We should hold the K & 10.

So what's going on MG??

 

[vinylweatherman]

Winpoker

Winpoker is in precise agreement with the analysis for the single hand version, and nothing odd was spotted on that. The bug is in the four hand version.
Golden Reef has not updated yet this month (nor will it on this PC ), so this error has been around for at least a month. It WILL have cheated some players, those who trust the autohold having seen it work pretty well before, and perhaps see the odd choices but think "must be right, always has been, and this is an established game".
I have to wonder if other VP games have an error, and how many. In some of the more exotic variants it won't be so obvious. What about Blackjack, could there be glaring errors there too!

 

[Mousey]

Winpoker is in precise agreement with the analysis for the single hand version, and nothing odd was spotted on that. The bug is in the four hand version.
Golden Reef has not updated yet this month (nor will it on this PC ), so this error has been around for at least a month. It WILL have cheated some players, those who trust the autohold having seen it work pretty well before, and perhaps see the odd choices but think "must be right, always has been, and this is an established game".
I have to wonder if other VP games have an error, and how many. In some of the more exotic variants it won't be so obvious. What about Blackjack, could there be glaring errors there too!

Precisely!

Players, we still need screenshots of weird autoholds! Dang... I just don't have much time right now to play and try to spot some of these. So you think it's only 4 line that's hinky, VWM? Could be single line play in some other games... Good grief... what about 10 play... 50 play... 100 play....

While we're on about it... is play mode as good as real for checking this 'bug'?

 

[vinylweatherman]

Play vs Real

I found these bugs in Golden Reef practice mode, so I believe practice mode can be used to identify problems, so no need to burn real money looking for bugs - that should be Microgaming's job.

MG need to explain this, as they have "fixed" an old game that was never broken in the first place, and this must have been recently as I am sure players would have quickly noticed bugs in such a simple VP variant.

Unfortunately, (for Microgaming), I still have those old Dependency Walker logs from the last couple of months, and I should be able to tell if the 10's or Better received an update, rather than a check. If so, I can see what other VP games updated as well, and these would be the best places to start looking for these autohold bugs.

 

[VayCayMom]

I wil post screenshots today as soon as I read again how to do it from just my computer screen. Hey do you think MG will give me a reward or a partial refund for finding this?? I bet I lost a nice chunk before I caught this!

 

[VayCayMom]

Here ya go, you only have to play for a few minutes before you get an example like this. There are even worse autoholds than this.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Laughable!

Here ya go, you only have to play for a few minutes before you get an example like this. There are even worse autoholds than this.

Honestly, a five year old would choose better than this!

Holding an unsuited 8 and 9 for the straight, yet discarding TWO face cards that could also, in theory, result in a straight, but also gain "10's or better" quite readily.

Where are the casino reps? a deafening silence, they usually pick up on these kinds of threads during the working week.

Since the 10's or better bug is so obvious, it will be worth seeing if ALL MG casinos have it, or only some.

 

[VayCayMom]

Honestly, a five year old would choose better than this!

Holding an unsuited 8 and 9 for the straight, yet discarding TWO face cards that could also, in theory, result in a straight, but also gain "10's or better" quite readily.


WINPOKER ranks this play number 18!!!
In other words there are 17 better choices for this hand including throwing them all out!
I have noticed this at more than 1 casino, but some do not even carry this game, hmmm, maybe they know it has a bad bug?


I just sent a note to Vegas7's vip email address regarding this because I play there a ton and I am sure it has affected my bankroll in a very negative manner. You are almost ensured of losing hands like this.
I'll keep you posted.

 

[VayCayMom]

Really, really bad

This is so bad it is pathetic. This is the 15th best way to play this hand.

 

[VayCayMom]

Vegas7

Vegas 7 replied they are forwarding this on to Microgamimg. I'm happy at the fast response. I know ultimately it is MG's issue most likely.

What is the policy when this happens? Is there one?
I recall something about English harbor, I'll take a look at the archives, though I recall they did not handle it well.

I want some restitution!

 

[aka23]

What is the policy when this happens? Is there one?
I recall something about English harbor, I'll take a look at the archives, though I recall they did not handle it well.

I want some restitution!

Shortly after the Gold Series games game out, a blackjack autoplay error was discovered and corrected. Casinos took different stances on what to do about players that lost money due to autoplay errors. Some credited players for losses, others did not. King Neptune's was very generous and credited me for all hands I might have lost money, then rounded up the overall total. 32 Red did not credit me for my losses, but I'm told they credited some other players.

I expect that something similar will happen with this issue.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Crumbs!

This is so bad it is pathetic. This is the 15th best way to play this hand.

This just beggars belief, the two face cards are an adjacent unsuited pair for a straight, just as when it wrongly holds unsuited low cards that are adjacent, now it wants to discard THREE face cards, including two adjacent for a straight, yet hold a single 6

How on earth does the strategy calculator work this one out. It isn't like the BJ autoplay, where we can at least edit it if we disagree on the finer points of strategy, the VP games are wrecked unless autohold is switched off, and one might as well play elsewhere, as MG casinos factor the availability of autoplay in determining the WR for bonuses, as they have to assume we can play perfect strategy with no more effort than clicking the mouse once, and going to bed

 

[GrandMaster]

I have verified that the same thing is happening at Platinum Play. My explanation is that it calculates the strategy for a different game, "Tens or lower".

 

[vinylweatherman]

Question.

Question is, how did this happen?

1) This is an old game.
2) They don't update old games each month, they just check (this was the official responce to the complaints about slow downloads and old games turning red and "reinstalling".


This leaves two possibilities.

1) We are all stupid, having never noticed before that 10's or better autoplay was so far out of kilter.

2) Microgaming have lied about old games not updating, and indeed updated old games on a routine basis, but this time something went wrong and they introduced an error into an old game that used to be absolutely fine.

If (2) - it shows they are wasting our bandwith by unnecessarily updating old games for whatever reason, but this reason has to be "secret" as they officially deny updating old games. Other than the error introduced, I can see no change in this game, and this seems to have made tasking an update unnecessary. We are still seeing posts about lengthy monthly updates, so they may well be continuing to waste our bandwitdth, as well as now making certain that 10's or better DOES now need an update, perhaps so do an unknown number of other games yet to be discovered.

 

[Mousey]

I thought todays heavy duty MG update (there was a LOT of hard drive grinding going on) might have repaired our 4 play 10s or Better autohold, but I guess not. Just got this....

 

[ocf]

This bug was reported in December 2006 by one player. I forwarded the information to MGS. In the end of January 2007 I was told by MGS that this was resolved and was in testing before deployment.

It's surprising to me that the same bug remains there after 2 months.

 

[Vesuvio]

This bug was reported in December 2006 by one player. I forwarded the information to MGS. In the end of January 2007 I was told by MGS that this was resolved and was in testing before deployment.

It's surprising to me that the same bug remains there after 2 months.

And neither Microgaming nor any of their casinos thought it might be necessary to inform players in the meantime

 

[GrandMaster]

This bug was reported in December 2006 by one player. I forwarded the information to MGS. In the end of January 2007 I was told by MGS that this was resolved and was in testing before deployment.

It's surprising to me that the same bug remains there after 2 months.

They are too busy releasing a dozen new slots each month.

 

[The Dude]

Thanks Grandmaster for the heads up on this thread. I was away on Spring Break when this appeared. I'm in the process of contacting MG on this at the moment.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Cheating

Well if MG knew about this from December, then they have been cheating players by not informing them of the problem. Players who lost money on this game could well invoke the clause about software errors voiding the wagers. I have seen casinos pull this one when players win "too much", but not all MG casinos refunded losses last time this happened with Mega Moolah.

Since MG seem to have a policy of keeping players in the dark about these bugs, how can we be expected to trust them, and in particular the software. No longer can we assume that lack of an announcement means there is no issue.

How about fixing the intermittent bug in EZBonus that is cheating players left, right & centre, and has been since November.

 

[VayCayMom]

Thanks Grandmaster for the heads up on this thread. I was away on Spring Break when this appeared. I'm in the process of contacting MG on this at the moment.

Thank Goodness! I was begining to feel that I was the only one that felt this was a very big deal indeed, considering the hoopla MG and the casinos make about being FAIR & HONEST. This seemed like a GROSS mistake that was being ignored by casinos and MG as well.
I am sure this gross error and my lack of notice till recently have cost me a great deal of money. I want , no, I EXPECT restitution!

 

[Mousey]

Makes ya wonder just how many players (especially those who have no clue about proper holds) have played (and are still playing!) using this screwy autohold.