Getting money back from a casino under police investigation?

[sparkz]

So heres the story (and theres a bit of "its your own fault" that may be sent my way... but it wasnt).

I found a new no deposit bonus at this casino (I will name it further down).

I thought it was a new casino. I never played there before. Never heard of it. However numerous people had said they had been paid and its a good casino.

Played the free chip and won 100 euros. WR seemed to of been met. I checked the casinomeister website and found them in the "no can do list". Got a bit worried but noticed they were in it under "Rival casino's". Because their site didnt seem rival anymore, I though they had changed software as they were offering games like "Bobby 7's" and "300 shields" plus many other people had said it was a good casino.


Put in the minimum 25 euros deposit and my free chip winnings disappeared. Gathered that WR couldnt of been met.

Fair enough, decided to play a bit with that 25 euros. Got balance to about 45 euros and decided to cashout.

Last night I checked the website and its down :O. Today I was hoping it would be back and found some information:

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Which after looking online basically translates to:

"Three people from Netgame solutions have been suspected of laundring drugmoney.

In the Netherlands two brothers, (Michel G and Maurice G) and a third person(Stijn F) have been arrested because they are suspected to have laundered drug money(Cannabis) through their company: Netgaming solutions, which holds several online casino brands including:
amsterdamscasino.com
amsterdamspoker.com
fruitluck.com
golden10casino.com
jackpotred.com
tanzoo.com
triplegoldcasino.com

All these online casinos have been taken offline and until the investigation is complete, they will stay offline and even may never return."

Typical.

The casino itself I played at was Jackpotred.


Yea its only 25 euros but thats a few beers really and a shame to see it gone from this.



Thanks

 

[mimi26]

But surely if you deposited in a 'no can do' casino it basically is your own fault. Personally I would never deposit in a casino that wasn't in the recommended list

 

[sparkz]

But surely if you deposited in a 'no can do' casino it basically is your own fault. Personally I would never deposit in a casino that wasn't in the recommended list

To some extent yes.

However it was "no can do" because it was listed as a rival casino. All rival casinos are there in that section.

I know the whole thing with rival software, rogue, corrupt and no good. I would never give money to a rival casino. However jackpotred didnt have rival software anymore from what I saw. It was more "Nextgen Gaming" software so I thought they had moved software providers. Plus with a lot of people saying they were paid many times and its a good, popular dutch casino it seemed logical to deposit since I originally thought I was getting 100 euros profit.

I am quite sure that if this police raid thing hadnt happened and the site was shut down, I would of received my payment with no problems

 

[susanjbo]

FORGET ABOUT GETTING A CENT!

Let me tell you now, if that story is true then u will never see a red cent of your money. Its goes like this, first ones to get anything from the sale of assetts or moneys is the Tax department, then its the banks, then the creditors, then the staff and employee institutions then its the landlord, and then theres you, right down the bottom, and if by chance theres $5000 left to spread, then thats proportional to your claimed debt, so u might if lucky get 1-2 cents in every $10.

Dont want to wilter your hopes, just giving it too you as it is, and not some fantasy world explaination.

 

[Nifty29]

But surely if you deposited in a 'no can do' casino it basically is your own fault. Personally I would never deposit in a casino that wasn't in the recommended list

Totally agree.

TBH sparkz, you should know by now to do your due diligence. Rivals are "No can do" for a reason, and white label Rivals fold like yesterdays washing almost on a monthly basis, so it isn't like this is a one-off.

Sorry to rub it in, but it is important that newbie members realise why there is an accredited and rogue section.

Who were the "numerous people" you talk about who told you about how great they were?

 

[sparkz]

Thanks peeps.

I gathered that although yes its in the no can do, its only there for the reason of being rival but the software had changed to Nextgen. Thats 1 of the first things I always try and do (a simple google search for "casinomeister" "*casino name*"). Its like any of the rival casinos currently in the rogue pit, could potentially become accredited if they changed software and showed signs of being legit.

The people saying they are legit and pay are long standing members of other gambling forums who mention about getting paid after joining and recently depositing and winning.

It does look that was susanjbo.

Seems like this is some massive operation with 150 police involved who are seizing big asset's.


"Real Estate
It is also known that the main suspect, a 32-year-old man from Geldrop, who has probably earned money to trade in soft drugs, and his 34 year old brother hold shares in several Dutch companies, the umbrella companies of more than 40 organizations with property good deal. Yet investigated how the capital villas and other property financed and whether illegal money is involved. Also in Spain have the brothers brothers apartments, expensive vessels and vehicles and a luxury villa under construction. All this is estimated to be worth more than 10 million."

"Scale research
Was such an investigation carried out on such a large scale. Never before The research is led by prosecutors of the National Prosecution Service and the Public Prosecutor's Office, but also the Dutch kansspelautoiteit is involved in the research. This is because seven gambling sites which defendants are involved and which is known to be visited. Monthly by more than 85,000 players The suspects are also owner of the million company Teletick , a company that focuses on online payments"

(Both translated using google translation so may be a few words out of place)

 

[GOCC]

If you deposited with your credit card, just do a chargeback surely?

 

[sparkz]

Thanks, Its debit card...

Would that be a valid reason for a chargeback?

 

[rockycatt]

Thanks, Its debit card...

Would that be a valid reason for a chargeback?

I believe it would have to be a viable working casino to make a valid complaint against a charge back [ proviso: I do not recommend charge backs ] lead with your common sense and good luck

 

[Jasminebed]

How about contacting one of the police departments involved in the investigation?

I wouldn't rush to make a chargeback. It might cause you more than $25 worth of heartbreak down the road.

 

[Nifty29]

You may have a legal right to chargeback, but as Jasmine said the ongoing cost in processor blacklists etc might not make it a viable one.

I'm also sure the CM rules say no CBs under any circumstances, so that might be worth considering.

Personally, I'd forget the $25 but remember the lesson learned.

 

[sparkz]

The problem is casinos get away with too much, so its more about principles.

I have had some casinos treat me like complete dirt over the years. I could go on all day about the way many casinos treat people... weather its accusing them of going against the "spirit of the bonus" bullcrap or refusing to pay because they player won more than they deposited, theres always some sort of drama's.

I know when I started playing about 8 years ago it was on some William Hill website. i remember some Tennis slot and Sheerluck Holmes games. Things were easy, as they should be. Deposit and lose... Fair enough. Deposit and win and you will 100% be paid. For William Hill they even had an option to generate and print a ticket of your winnings so you could pop in their bookies and get paid on the spot.

The years that follow have shows casinos going down the plughole. Most casinos refuse to have any common sense approach nowadays. After the good times of being paid by printing off a ticket at William Hill I soon started getting skanked by needing certain ID (im sure as I put in other posts). At the time I didnt know about needing ID for casinos online. Several thousand pounds of winnings had been void because of casinos not having any common sense. Just because I dont have passport/driving licence, it doesn mean im a fraudster. I have 20 other forms of documentation (many of them being government certified) which proves I am who I say I am. Refusal of common sense has been an excuse to not pay me.

I lost a fair bit of cash when respectable and popular rival casinos (Vegas Regal to name 1) suddenly decided to change their business into a rogue outfit.

Casinos never tend to keep to their withdraw times. That "48 hour max pending time" usually turns out to be 2 weeks because of "issues" out of their control, whilst in that time they have sent promos and free chips in the hope I will be on a gambling buzz and reverse and lose my balance.

You dont walk down the high street and have to do your research before entering a shop. You know you can go in any shop, see a product you want and buy it. No hassle. Even real casinos, arcade and bookmakers are easy to go in, play and if you win you will see your money.


Then theres all this crap now with this jackpotred casino. Its not my fault someone was doing money laundering and whatever else it was. I didnt know they were doing it but im just supposed to let that money go, even though my intention for depositing wasnt to gamble, it was originally to cashout freechip winnings.

Annoying that iv let casinos off with too much. Let money go and learnt from it and now I have to just forget about blatant theft of my money

 

[just play]

I'm also sure the CM rules say no CBs under any circumstances, so that might be worth considering.

If this is indeed true, (which I think may be a grey area) what about all the members from this thread?

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/56992/


Should they just hope and pray that they don't get charged with $500 at some point? I would like to have Bryan chime in here and answer this about chargebacks. If a casino charged someone an amount of money and didn't return it, the player wouldn't have the right to claim a chargeback and be banned from CM? I highly doubt that.

 

[sparkz]

Anyone got ideas of payment processor they used? Just come through on my statement now:

CARD PAYMENT TO NorthDakotaEnterprises UK ON 2013-05-24


Only info I can bring up shows as "non trading" and "dormant"

Also its part of jackpotred's "net gaming solutions" network.

Seems like the casino owned the payment processor

 

[Nifty29]

If this is indeed true, (which I think may be a grey area) what about all the members from this thread?

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/56992/


Should they just hope and pray that they don't get charged with $500 at some point? I would like to have Bryan chime in here and answer this about chargebacks. If a casino charged someone an amount of money and didn't return it, the player wouldn't have the right to claim a chargeback and be banned from CM? I highly doubt that.

I don't make the rules.

Bryan has that rule for a good reason. If he said "no chargebacks unless under reasonable circumstances" then some players would consider losing their bankroll legitimately a "reasonable circumstance".

If the player could prove beyond any doubt that the charge was fraudulent/unauthorized.....which should be quite simple after a comparison between the player's bank statement and the player's casino account....then I would think exceptions could (and should IMO be made).

The problem here is that the chargebacks may show up on casino fraud databases in the future which may affect players adversely. I'm not saying it should, just that it might.

The easiest solution would be for the casino to place the disputed amounts into the player's casino account and allow them to withdraw it just like a clean deposit. It may be that the casino is out of pocket, but someone needs to take responsibility somewhere along the line, and if the processor won't, then the casino should considering that they were using their services. It most certainly is NOT the player's fault.

 

[sparkz]

A bit more info I dug up from the internet:

Over 118,000 euros is owed to players, so a lot of people left in the dark about this.


Some extra info found (translated so may have words out of place):

Sunday May 26 - Last night we could connect to a spokesman of the management of Amsterdam Casino first contact. North Dakota Enterprises in Costa Rica is the company behind Amsterdams Casino. A company spokesman says it is shocked and are aware of any harm.

Last Friday (Black Friday 24-05-2013) there have been raids at various places in the Netherlands and abroad. The direct consequence of this is that all gambling websites of the organization from Costa Rica are closed and no longer available for both players and staff. It was not easy for us to get. A spokesman for Amsterdam Casino

"It's a hectic time and there is a lot at us now. We have only one priority and that is the Amsterdam Casino get back online as quickly as possible so that we can stand. "Our players back to word

Unfortunately, the company spokesman North Dakota Enterprises not go too deeply into the money laundering allegations.

"We have not done anything wrong and hope to put this. Upcoming week right as soon as possible"

Although Amsterdams Casino can not look ahead they are hopeful. When asked if we could pass on to the players something even the answer was resolute:

"Our players have always been with us on this number one with us now get the absolute priority. We have the goal to get the site back online as soon as possible and we are with our entire team hard at work. We will do everything to the players who now have money payout stand or in their account to offset so keep having confidence in us. "




From the translations of some users comments... Seems some are blaming the gamblers. 1 guy alone is owed 44,000 euros. Some are saying its the gamblers fault for gambling at an "illegal" casino? No sense in that because if people depositing knew the casino was doing behind the scenes dodgy business then its unlikely they would of deposited.

 

[Casinomeister]

Just an admin note about chargebacks: the issue is whether or not the chargeback was done maliciously intent on defrauding someone. If you make a deposit, win, get paid, and then make a chargeback - that is malicious and you are defrauding someone. To make a chargeback against a company that is defrauding you, that is a different story. That's a choice one has to make - you need to understand what consequences might transpire, if any.

 

[dunover]

Yes, it's a minefield. In casino land chargebacks are usually fraudulent by disgruntled losers denying use of their cards by falsely representing they didn't make the transactions. You can do a chargeback with a debit card IF you haven't received goods or services due or reasonably expected when you made the transaction, except it's not called 'chargeback' and uses a different process via your bank.

In the case of Purple Lounge would a chargeback not be justified by unpaid winners? Surely to blacklist those who did a chargeback in these circumstances only would be grossly unfair. I'm surprised many expecting PL withdrawals didn't do chargebacks if paid by card, as they would have had 6 months to do so. To spend money on real credits and not be paid winnings is a breach of the transaction by the vendor, in both spirit and money. In effect you would have been playing fun credits which required no purchase.

 

[just play]

Just an admin note about chargebacks: the issue is whether or not the chargeback was done maliciously intent on defrauding someone. If you make a deposit, win, get paid, and then make a chargeback - that is malicious and you are defrauding someone. To make a chargeback against a company that is defrauding you, that is a different story. To make a chargeback against a company that is defrauding you, that is a different story. That's a choice one has to make - you need to understand what consequences might transpire, if any.

Thank you very much for responding.


The last line of the bolded part is what scares me. That we as players may have consequences because we were ripped off. And now there is proof people are being ripped off, sure the amounts are small, (in the thread I highlighted) but what if the amounts raise, ya know? If this happened to me, I would have no problem doing a chargeback, money was stolen from me, but then I would have to worry about some blacklist, but I was the one that was ripped off.

Sometimes this online gambling world makes no sense to me.

 

[Jasminebed]

I have a friend that's a bar owner. She told me every employee is going to rip you off, it's just how much they rip you off is a decision in who she keeps and who she lets go. Also told me that it's always better to have an employee that steals from you than steals from your customers. I am not trying slag off any bartenders here!

The large majority of corporate theft is employee theft. When employees feel they are treated unfairly, they tend to steal more. Or even if not, when controls are lax.

By US laws, anyone processing payments is a criminal. And when you deal with criminals, you lose a certain entitlement to trust. If the casinos want US players to trust them, they need to step up to the bat when processors steal from their customers. If it comes to point where it is no longer cost effective to do so, then pull out.

I encountered a casino or two that used their US processor for me, where's there's no need to. I don't play there anymore.

If you want to pass on additional costs to the player, then charge 2%, 5%, whatever.

Please do not expect people to stay quiet on unauthorized charges.

Unauthorized charges are just that, not charge backs IMO.