Dear Fortune Lounge Management

jetset

RIP Brian
Joined
Feb 22, 2001
Location
Earth
"In my opinion, when I make a deposit at a casino and receive some type of bonus, then I am making a contract with them, the terms of which are fixed at the time I make my purchase and thus enter into the contract. The casino is affirming this contract when they give me the bonus money (we have an offer and acceptance), and at that point, both parties are bound by the conditions of the contract (the w/r). The casino can't go back and retroactively change the terms of the contract at cash-in time as this would be a breach of the contract."

Exactly JPM - well put. Regarding recourse, I'm hoping that the eCOGRA initiative (at least as far as casinos holding their seal are concerned) will improve the recourse aspect so long neglected by the jurisdictions and even the IGC. Now that they have seals awarded and an online dispute structure in place it's delivery time for them.

Grand Master, I agree that any Support training shortcomings should by now have been overcome. Without defending inefficiency, I know from experience in setting up a Support centre that it is only as good as the quality of the CSRs that you recruit (and sometimes paying over market rate is an option that gets you better people and less expense in the end) And of course how well you train 'em and keep them up to speed and motivated.

That said, the whole bonusing thing has become way more complicated since I was on the operational side of this industry in its early years, so it must be a nightmare keeping FAQ and briefing files up to date, ensuring correct interpretation and keeping training up to scratch. I think all of us acknowledge that T&C's have now become so complex that one almost needs a legal eagle to interpret them!

Maybe its time for the operators to get back to basics...
 

GrandMaster

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Location
UK
Clayman said:
Do you (or anyone) still get those weekly bonuses? Do you get any? I wish I could try a few even with the increased WR's which aren't that big of a deal to me. Since they've increased the WR's, I haven't received a single bonus anyway.
I got several this week, mostly just 10%. At this level the WR starts to matter. If you get a 10% bonus on $200, you have to wager $200 first, then 10x(D+B)=$2200, $2400 in total. The only way to play it is to use autoplay and hope for the best. You only expect to keep 50-60% of the bonus.
 

Clayman

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 12, 2004
Location
Pennsylvania, USA
GrandMaster said:
I got several this week, mostly just 10%. At this level the WR starts to matter. If you get a 10% bonus on $200, you have to wager $200 first, then 10x(D+B)=$2200, $2400 in total. The only way to play it is to use autoplay and hope for the best. You only expect to keep 50-60% of the bonus.

If I could get the 10% every week on the 5 casinos I have that still use the old single-deck, I'd happily grind out my $88/week for less than a day's work.
 

GrandMaster

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Jan 21, 2004
Location
UK
Clayman said:
If I could get the 10% every week on the 5 casinos I have that still use the old single-deck, I'd happily grind out my $88/week for less than a day's work.
What is you bet size? I assume that $88/week is the expected value of $100 bonus on $1000 deposit, which requires $12000 in total wagering. Flat betting $4/hand, $12000 is about a full day's work. The standard deviation is about $250, so there is still a pretty high chance of losing. I would rather use autoplay even if the expected value is smaller.
 

Clayman

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 12, 2004
Location
Pennsylvania, USA
GrandMaster said:
What is you bet size? I assume that $88/week is the expected value of $100 bonus on $1000 deposit, which requires $12000 in total wagering. Flat betting $4/hand, $12000 is about a full day's work. The standard deviation is about $250, so there is still a pretty high chance of losing.

Yes, exactly.

And, with the autoplay, despite the higher HA, you could play $2/hand and play twice as many hands and still only lose your own money about the same 36% of the time. Can't argue with that.

I'm just old-fashioned, I guess, and, despite rumors to the contrary, I do vary my bet from time to time.

It sort of seems to me alot of bonuses these days, be they 10%, 20% or whatever, often seem to come in at that 50-60% EV range you mentioned. Sure is a change from the not so distant past.

Would it be possible to have both single-deck and Viper versions installed simultaneously? I would assume so if installed in different directories.
 

GrandMaster

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Jan 21, 2004
Location
UK
Clayman said:
Would it be possible to have both single-deck and Viper versions installed simultaneously? I would assume so if installed in different directories.
The installation of Viper will uninstall the old version. You may be able to keep the old one, if you set up different user accounts and install Viper in another user account, this depends on where the registry entries are, but you may need two copies of the operating system.

Btw, you should consider yourself lucky that you did not get the promo. I have played at two casinos and I am already down $100 in real money. :(
 

Clayman

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Mar 12, 2004
Location
Pennsylvania, USA
GrandMaster said:
Btw, you should consider yourself lucky that you did not get the promo.

LOL - you'll get it back.

I currently have 2 different versions of Fortune Room installed in different directories. I think the more recent version is a double-deck game and maybe not the full Viper. Anyway, I had to do it because the old Fortune Room e-cash guy had no provision for Neteller. So I purchase chips thru the new version, play under the old version, and cash-out under the new version. Same user account of course.
 

GrandMaster

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Jan 21, 2004
Location
UK
Clayman said:
LOL - you'll get it back.

I currently have 2 different versions of Fortune Room installed in different directories. I think the more recent version is a double-deck game and maybe not the full Viper. Anyway, I had to do it because the old Fortune Room e-cash guy had no provision for Neteller. So I purchase chips thru the new version, play under the old version, and cash-out under the new version. Same user account of course.
You can use the flash casino to deposit, too, and it still has the single deck version I believe. Of course, it is not as fast as the download version.

I had my worst BJ session in a long time. Here are the stats: 1250 hands, down 85 units, probability 0.017.
 

Clayman

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Joined
Mar 12, 2004
Location
Pennsylvania, USA
GrandMaster said:
You can use the flash casino to deposit, too, and it still has the single deck version I believe. Of course, it is not as fast as the download version.

I had my worst BJ session in a long time. Here are the stats: 1250 hands, down 85 units, probability 0.017.

Thanks for the tip - I hadn't thought of that.

Sorry for your bad session. I'm way overdue for one - I expect it'll be a doozy when it happens.
 

ftg

Banned User - bogus claim - violation of <a href="
Joined
Aug 4, 2003
GrandMaster said:
I had my worst BJ session in a long time. Here are the stats: 1250 hands, down 85 units, probability 0.017.

This is a 1 in 59 event. So you have been very lucky before.

I have had not up a single unit in every session the recent 2 months, playing Vegas Strip BJ in Viper. Always down down down. For most sessions, I was down at least 20-40+ for playing a merely ~200 hands for each session and then I stopped. That's why I mentioned I highly suspect MG's BJ.
 

ftg

Banned User - bogus claim - violation of <a href="
Joined
Aug 4, 2003
I'm playing Vegas Strip BJ. In about 250 actions, I'm now down 40 units. I feel frustrated. I'll update here when I finished my session.

(Due to the bad results recently, I did double check my strategy card with Wiz web site and make sure it's 100% correct before I started playing.)
 

Stanford

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 22, 2004
Location
USA
What's Up FL?

FL,

I have been watching this thread for your response. Anything new?

As I recall the questions are:

1. Do you apply bonus terms retroactivly by using day of cashin rather than day of deposit.

2. What are you doing about your customer service who seem to not understand the difference in terms between your sign up and your weekly promotions. That is, 20% rule on blackjack/Jacks or Better only applies to the sign up, not the ongoing promotions.

3. The non carryover provision is not in the Ts&Cs of your promotion. And while I have read it relates to all the casinos you process for, it is still a little disconcerting.

4. There is a suggestion that you treat all balances under a $1 as zero so that a small error by the player doesn't cost him his entire bonus. That is because it isn't apparant where odd cents can be wagered and the customer service reps are not familiar enough with the games to advise the player. Under 25 cents would be fine as well.

I wanted to recap because I thought they might be getting lost in the thread.

Again thank you for being available to the players to make sure all is well and again congratulations on being awarded the ECOGRA seal for excellence and fairness.

Stanford
 

HateMG

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 6, 2004
Location
Brooklyn, NY
It's my first post here and I'd like to share my FL and MG experience.
I played a lot in MG casinos and of course lost plenty. One time I liked the software and thought it was a fair one but not anymore and I'll try to explain why. Recently playing in one of FL casinos I got a hand in Atlantic City BJ which was reminiscent of movie "Maverick" you probably remember when a guy got 4 of a kind in Poker another one had straight flush and Maverick pulled a Royal flush at the same time. Of course poker is different from BJ but the odds of that happening is probably in the same vicinity.
My first 2 cards were 2 7's against dealer seven. Naturally I split them and got the next 2 cards 7's as well, split them again for total of 4 hands. 2 of the hands I have doubled after the second card, on third hand I got one more 7 and a four. On the last hand I got a 10 on the second card. My doubled hands were for total of 20 each. And you guessed it right the dealer turned 3 7's.
I understand there are 32 7's in 8 decks of cards but c'mon 8 7's in 14 cards dealt. There is no doubt in my mind that was a set hand. It's like telling you don't play with us you stupid moron.
There is a game called Triple Sevens Blackjack in which there is mandatory $1 side bet and it pays bonuses for player having 7's dealt. The house edge for that bet is close to 38% less 3.45% for every $10,000 in the progressive meter. The probability for 3 unsuited 7's(which btw pays 250 to 1), according to Wizardsofodds is 0.00038 which means in average you'll get 38 3 unsuited 7's dealt for every 100,000 hands. In my case I got 4 first cards 7's and the dealer got 3. The odds, I think, should be of the chart.
Playing AC BJ a lot I noticed that for approximately every 200 hands or so you'll get a hand where you split your cards 3 times (not necessary the 7's) and in most cases you would lose all of them.
I don't trust MG anymore and needless to say I don't play there anymore.
 
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kniepm

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 6, 2003
This is a breakthrough in efficiency. Instead of examining the results of millions of hands to determine if software is fair, we'll just take limited anecdotal evidence and extrapolate from there.

So by the same token, if I happen am dealt two black jacks in a row at any particular casino, that casino must be "rigged" in my favor?

Wake up people. If the cards always fell "the way they're supposed to," this gambling wouldn't get the adrenaline and endorphines pumping, it would be as boring as an evening home with the wife.

It has been my experience that improbable shit happens; when it does, that does not necessarily mean the laws of nature and/or probability have been tampered with. If the dealer pulling triple sevens when you have upped your original bet six-fold is too much for you, go back to playing Yahtzee with your Aunt Flo.
 

HateMG

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Apr 6, 2004
Location
Brooklyn, NY
Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
It has been my experience that improbable shit happens; when it does, that does not necessarily mean the laws of nature and/or probability have been tampered with. If the dealer pulling triple sevens when you have upped your original bet six-fold is too much for you, go back to playing Yahtzee with your Aunt Flo.
________________________________________________________________

Look I'm not talking about how much I bet or how much I lost. I'm talking about fairness. I want to play, win or lose, if it's at least a random and a fair game. I've been playing for the last 8 months, in some casinos I've wagered 50000-150000 and the more I played the more I got convinced that MG is not always random. You can feel that some hands are predetermined regardless whether it's in your or dealer favor. That hand was just the last straw and it's not just dealer triple sevens as you said, which happens btw suspiciously too often for supposedly random game but I had 5 7's in 11 cards as well first 4 of which are 4oak and all of them happened to be 7's. If you played in land casinos you would probably see 3 splits once in a blue moon, in MG AC BJ that "improbable shit happens" quite too often for that game to be fair.
 

jpm

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 29, 2002
I only wish he had a screen shot of that game at the end. It would have been something to see. Though I still don't believe that the regular MG blackjack game plays fair, I've felt better about some of the other permutations (like vegas strip, etc) that come in the viper version.

That being said, I gotta tell you what happened to me at a land based casino one day. I was playing $5 bj at a super 7s table. That's similar to the triple 7s game on MG, except its not progressive. Its a $1 side bet, non mandatory and pays $3 for one 7, $50 for 2 unsuited, $100 for 2 suited, $500 for 3 unsuited, $5000 for 3 suited. I play the $5 table for this one because I'm playing the 7s game and not looking to make anything on the BJ part. In one 8 deck shoe, playing in the #3 or 4 seat of a full table, I pulled 2 unsuited 7s for $50 each, one suite 7s for $100, and one unsuited 3 - 7's for $500 (and won the hand against a dealer 20 too, woohoo). There may have been one more unsuited pair in there as well, can't recall. I just remember walking away after that shoe with a pocket full of black chips after the eye in the sky reviewed the table thoroughly. It was an incredible run and who knows what the odds on that were, probably close to what you just experienced. So it does happen in land based play as well as online.

I still won't play that european version on MG though. I just don't trust it one little bit.
 

thesmacker

Most Annoying Forum Member of 2006
Joined
Jun 22, 2003
I've played both at B and M casinos and Online. What have I learned? That no matter what, crazy, beyond the odds events happen at the same rate at both types of casinos. I beleive people are more suspect of online casinos because they probably are able to play 5-10 times as many hands in the same amount time compared to a B&M casino. Because of this players see crazy events happen at a more frequent pace at online casinos and come to the conclusion that they are rigged. Now I understand that there are types of online casino software that are obviously rigged but microgaming I feel is not one of them. I have played over 500 000 hands at MG and have a about a 99.85% return. This includes play at their single deck European and Vegas Strip. I know it often feels funny but I think most of it is because people go into online casinos with a pessimistic attitude and when odd events occur you are more prone to notice them. Just my 2 cents.
Cheers
 

GrandMaster

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Location
UK
HateMG said:
It's my first post here and I'd like to share my FL and MG experience.
I played a lot in MG casinos and of course lost plenty. One time I liked the software and thought it was a fair one but not anymore and I'll try to explain why. Recently playing in one of FL casinos I got a hand in Atlantic City BJ which was reminiscent of movie "Maverick" you probably remember when a guy got 4 of a kind in Poker another one had straight flush and Maverick pulled a Royal flush at the same time. Of course poker is different from BJ but the odds of that happening is probably in the same vicinity.
My first 2 cards were 2 7's against dealer seven. Naturally I split them and got the next 2 cards 7's as well, split them again for total of 4 hands. 2 of the hands I have doubled after the second card, on third hand I got one more 7 and a four. On the last hand I got a 10 on the second card. My doubled hands were for total of 20 each. And you guessed it right the dealer turned 3 7's.
I understand there are 32 7's in 8 decks of cards but c'mon 8 7's in 14 cards dealt. There is no doubt in my mind that was a set hand. It's like telling you don't play with us you stupid moron.
There is a game called Triple Sevens Blackjack in which there is mandatory $1 side bet and it pays bonuses for player having 7's dealt. The house edge for that bet is close to 38% less 3.45% for every $10,000 in the progressive meter. The probability for 3 unsuited 7's(which btw pays 250 to 1), according to Wizardsofodds is 0.00038 which means in average you'll get 38 3 unsuited 7's dealt for every 100,000 hands. In my case I got 4 first cards 7's and the dealer got 3. The odds, I think, should be of the chart.
Playing AC BJ a lot I noticed that for approximately every 200 hands or so you'll get a hand where you split your cards 3 times (not necessary the 7's) and in most cases you would lose all of them.
I don't trust MG anymore and needless to say I don't play there anymore.
The odds of there being eight 7's in the top 14 cards in an 8 deck shoe is just over 1 in a million, so it really is a rare event. However, rare events do happen, they just should not occur too frequently. :) For example, I just got the 10 and 7 of spades against the dealer's 3 of hearts. The probability of this happening is about 1 in 140000. If you are implying that the casino is cheating, I am sure they could do it in more subtle ways. Btw, how many hands have you had and how many of them did you split 3 times? 1 in 200 is way too often, if you can substantiate it, then we have definite evidence of cheating.

I had a hand where I split 3 times, doubled down, got 20 or 21 on each hand, the dealer got 18, so I won 8 times my original bet. I once saw a player get five 8's in a row in a land based casino. He kept splitting and splitting, the dealer had to stop him when he wanted to split the 4th time.
 

Clayman

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Mar 12, 2004
Location
Pennsylvania, USA
HateMG said:
the more I played the more I got convinced that MG is not always random.

The best advice I can give you, or anyone, is to record all your hands with W's, L's, T's & BJ's. All the more so when you feel they're cheating you.

And even though you say you will no longer play MG, or whatever, it's a good habit to get into because I can guarantee you that you will feel the same way again.

Had you recorded the thousands of hands you've already played, I bet you dollars to doughnuts you'd be be looking at this hand as the interesting oddity it is rather than evidence of non-fairness.

Good luck to you in your future gaming.
 

HateMG

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Apr 6, 2004
Location
Brooklyn, NY
Thesmacker,

You're right that we play a lot more hands in online casinos, but you observed 5-6 hands at a time playing with other players and believe me I spent a lot of time playing in B&M and I never saw anything as weird as what's going on in MG BJ and I'm not talking about just that particular hand.
When I play in crypto or Boss I don't feel like being cheated. Yes the dealer gets crazy 5's and 6's to 16 and 15 sometimes, but they bust as often and you get quite a few brakes in your favor as well. When I play in MG and I'm on winning streak, in most cases, I know I would get a 5 to my 16, OTOH 9 out of 10 times I would get a 10 to my 12, or lose my double down right after the losing streak started. Another example If I play with an average bet of $10-$15 for a while and than increase it to $50-$100 it would eat me alive in a NY minute giving me 1 win out of 10-12 hands and that happens time after time after time.
Maybe I'm just paranoid but I'll go with what I see and what I feel.

.
 

GrandMaster

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Location
UK
GrandMaster said:
You can use the flash casino to deposit, too, and it still has the single deck version I believe. Of course, it is not as fast as the download version.

I had my worst BJ session in a long time. Here are the stats: 1250 hands, down 85 units, probability 0.017.
This week started bad and continued worse. I made a small profit at one casino (even without a bonus), a small loss at another, and a big loss at 4 others. Here are my full stats from the Fortune Lounge group: 7000 hands at $2, gambling loss $340=170 units. I got $140 bonus, so I only lost $200 in real money. :( The expected loss is about 25 units, so I am down 145 units from the expected value. The probability of doing this badly or worse is about 6.5%, or 1 in 16, so I am not complaining about cheating but it hurts. I was hoping that they would send me some better promos seeing how much I lost, but I just got another bunch of 10% deals. :( I will try it once more and if it does not improve, I will quit. I cannot afford to lose $200 a week. On the plus side I already have enough point for silver VIP status. :)
 

hhcfreebie

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Joined
Feb 22, 2003
Location
USA
HateMG said:
Maybe I'm just paranoid but I'll go with what I see and what I feel.

.
Actually, there is nothing wrong with that. It's your money, your game.
Clayman suggests you to record every hand and I'd suggest the same. You might find it's hard to believe at this moment but your feeling can be deceiving. I'd trust my record much more than my "feeling". Maybe I just don't have any "gambler's instinct" whatsoever.
Last week I had terrible luck with two cryptologic casinos. I even had a record-breaking 9 straight loose on BJ. Both events have less than 1% chance of happening. Guess what? I bounce back all the money and more in the following days.
Maybe you will have better luck next time. Once again, it's your call.
 

Stanford

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 22, 2004
Location
USA
Will FL return to this thread?

I keep revisiting this thread to see if FL is responding. It is very troublesome that they have not addressed at least the issue regarding bonus terms changing retroactivly. Is anyone else concerned and is it likely that they will review this thread?

Stanford
 

m249a

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 16, 2004
Location
Pa
Why would they respond? Its their casino, their rules. I'm sure they know from experience that eventually this will all blow over and they can continue to do whatever they want to whomever they want. I have seen this post stray from the original question, then the entire original question was broken down and re-asked. Still no response. Maybe they are too busy. Or most likely, its blatent comtempt. After all we are faceless, nothing more then a paychek to these people. Even with as much power and influnce the meister has, at the end of the day its a numbers game.
 

Adde

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Location
Sweden
As for my original post, Wim (Fortune Lounges VP) was very helpful in solving it. The reason he gave for me being treated with the "run around" was many new people at support staff. No excuse perhaps, but I have to give Wim credit for being nothing but a class act when he finally got his hands on this matter! When all transactions have finally been sorted out I will make a post to close my case, so to speak.
 
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