888 Thriller Promo

[chf]

888 thriller chiller

reckon I did over 205,000 (pounds not dollars) wagering to qualify for that November 888 thriller/chiller bonus. lost money on the gambling - then the guaranteed bonus was withheld. my complaints were never acknowledged, eventually I put it down to experience. BAD THINGS HAPPEN WITH BAD CASINOS.
looking now though like the vips got thier thriller thrills if they complained hard enough whilst us High Rollers got the big wooden thing in a painful place.

 

[mickeywynne]

Shouldn't prima facie evidence of 888 fraud be reported to the authorities?

Yes, and it may have been one of the briefest Accreditations on record. I think it lasted ... maybe a few months. Hardly something to be proud of.

The story behind that is an unfortunate one: the casino achieved Accred status only because of the tireless efforts of their rep, Rachel888. Within weeks there were major problems because the casino(s) were not cooperating with the PAB process and because of white-label cross-marketing. Rachel did what she could to patch things up but without the casino's cooperation -- mainly following through with the requirements for Accred casinos -- 888's Accred days were seriously numbered. And sure enough, they got the boot.

Anyone bragging about 888's time as an Accred casino is very much barking up the wrong tree.

Is Rachel888 still the rep with CasinoMeister?

If she is, could you ask her to post something about why so many of their High Rollers (and VIPs) did not receive their promised Thriller bonuses. And ask her to explain why those denied their "guaranteed" bonuses were not told they were not going to get their bonuses until a few hours AFTER they had completed millions of pounds of wagering as required by the Terms and Conditions of the Thriller offer.

Could CasinoMeister help, in any way, the 888 Thriller victims to band together in a legal "class" action against that rogue casino?

But if this was all a deliberate fraud by 888 then should not this information be passed speedily to the police authorities in the UK, where 888 have a stock market listing, or Gibraltar where 888 are supposedly "regulated"?

Or do you think this goes all the way back to Israel where Cassava (aka the Operations Department of 888) is controlled from?

 

[Silencio]

I'm surprised at the amount of players involved in this.. Someone must've contacted / filed a complaint with eCogra about this right? If a group of people all have the same issue, they must be, more than usual, willing to do an in depth investigation into what happened.

 

[eliza]

I'm surprised at the amount of players involved in this.. Someone must've contacted / filed a complaint with eCogra about this right? If a group of people all have the same issue, they must be, more than usual, willing to do an in depth investigation into what happened.

Silencio - you have some connection with 888 so correct me if I have got this really wrong...

But is not there a John Alderton (or Anderton) or something like that who is a director of both 888 and eCogra? And aren't 888 one of the main financial backers of eCogra?

Twiggy - thanks to your thread I really think I've been saved a lot of money and embarassment. But you have gone really quiet.

 

[eliza]

Surprise - 888 REALLY DO pay-out big bonuses

I work in in the UK pensions industry and get a lot of stuff from the ABI - that's the British insurers' association. ABI currently has a "red-top" alert on 888 over the size of bonuses it wants to pay to members (board members that is).

Lucky winners include Aviad Kobrine (offered 170% of salary with no wagering requirement) and Gigi Levy (paid $500,000 ex gratia bonus - no wagering requirement). ABI has guidelines for limiting boardroom excess. 888 is really breaching those guidelines. Pension funds and other big investors may vote against these bonuses at the company's annual meeting.

I really wonder how much of these director bonuses have been "earned" from withholding those bonuses promised to members?

 

[Silencio]

Silencio - you have some connection with 888 so correct me if I have got this really wrong...

But is not there a John Alderton (or Anderton) or something like that who is a director of both 888 and eCogra? And aren't 888 one of the main financial backers of eCogra?

Hard to respond to this question without completely derailing this thread but yes, John Anderson. Well he never was the director. He was a non-executive director, so part of the board among many others. And yes he was one of the founders of eCogra. I'm not sure he still is part of it though, the board has been restructured last year. But regardless that doesn't mean eCogra wont do its job.

 

[twiggy60]

Hi eliza,

I've been quiet - I've been busy with work recently and family. I've put my online gambling on hold a little since my 888 debacle - but I can assure you my feelings towards them are very colourful and probably not suitable to be fully elaborated upon in a public forum!

I've never heard of Rachel, the 888 rep but perhaps she's decided 888 are a lost cause too!

One other potential option for complaining is the GRA:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

There appears to be a formal process. They do discuss 'bonus abuse' on their page but I think the tactics 888 have undertaken go beyond bonus abuse here - why else would they settle in full - twice after initially refusing to pay if it wasn't clear that they were in the wrong!?

 

[plangston]

Hi

Amazing, i thought i'd been singled out for special treatment by 888! They offered me a high roller thriller bonus in November 2011. I deposited a total of £18000 over the month, intending to qualify for the maximum bonus of £3000. My final deposit was on 29th November. I completed the wagering requirement, making a loss of over £1800 in the process and duly applied to the high roller team for the bonus on 30th November and received an email acknowledgment.

On the 2nd December I received an email from the Security Department at Cassava Enterprises informing me that my account had been permanently blocked due to an unspecified breach of terms and conditions. The balance of my account was returned but no bonus was awarded. I contacted the High Roller team at 888 several times by both email and telephone but they were unable to help. I contacted the security team at Cassava to try and find out what the problem was. I received two further emails from them reiterating that my account was blocked due to a breach of their terms and conditions.

My position is that 888 have blocked my account without justification, although they claim a breach of their terms and conditions which I dispute. 888 offered a promotion which I took part in, in good faith, meeting the terms and conditions of the promotion, therefore surely they should award the bonus. If they have decided to withdraw the promotion then they should refund any losses which I incurred in the course of wagering for the promotion.

 

[Silencio]

Hi eliza,

I've been quiet - I've been busy with work recently and family. I've put my online gambling on hold a little since my 888 debacle - but I can assure you my feelings towards them are very colourful and probably not suitable to be fully elaborated upon in a public forum!

I've never heard of Rachel, the 888 rep but perhaps she's decided 888 are a lost cause too!

One other potential option for complaining is the GRA:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

There appears to be a formal process. They do discuss 'bonus abuse' on their page but I think the tactics 888 have undertaken go beyond bonus abuse here - why else would they settle in full - twice after initially refusing to pay if it wasn't clear that they were in the wrong!?

So did you actually file a complaint? Or have any of you done this? eCogra, GRA, whatever..

 

[Ososurrey]

Sophistry

Hi everyone

I've only just signed up to this forum, first ever forum excursion so still getting my head round how it all works. The reason I joined was because of this thread, I thought I was alone in 888's sophistry but clearly not. I think my experience with them (888) trumps anything I've read so far. E-cogra were about as useful as an ashtray on a motor-bike, so I'm interested to learn there is a conection between e-gogra and 888. It's late now, had a beer and I don't want to say anything (in my first post) that will incur the wrath of the forum boss, so I'll post again in the cool light of day with more info.

In an earlier post I think it was Twiggy said about doing a personnal message - how do you do that?

 

[Quito1]

howdy from hail stoning London

Somethings up, new member, 888 listed as worst casino on profile, my take OP is VIP member at 888 and not getting the treatment of a VIP from the casino.

Quito man is back in London. Weather awful.

me_and_ed - man you got your finger on the pulse. your post was spot on.

Looks like something rotten in the state of Gibraltar.

the men from Del Monte smell bad cassava here.

 

[Ososurrey]

So did you actually file a complaint? Or have any of you done this? eCogra, GRA, whatever..

E-cogra were very slow and of no real help, they simply forwarded 888's reply to the effect that my play had breached the Terms and Conditions of the site. They highlighted - "In the interests of fair play on our Sites it is prohibited to utilise any recognised betting techniques to circumvent the standard house edge in our games. This includes (but is not limited to) any attempts at card counting. If the game play on your account indicates that you are using such betting techniques we shall immediately block the account and retain any funds in said account." And then said - "Bearing the above in mind we are confident that the operator has acted according to their Terms and Conditions in locking your account and as such I must inform you that we find your dispute to be invalid."

Complete nonesense of course. If I had found the holy grail of a 'technique to circumvent the standard house edge in... games' I'd now be on a beach in the Carribean, or similar!

What was the dispute, well get this!....

They very quickly promoted me to "High Roller" member status and then bombarded me with offers and bonuses via email, live chat and banners on the site, some of which were frankly too good to ignore like the £3k bonus last November. Having been coerced into doing far more wagering than I would otherwise have done, 888 suddenly and without explanation froze my account shortly after the bonus had been awarded. This information came in an email as a fait accompli. At this point there was over six thousand pounds in my 888 account. I tried to open a dialogue with 888 only to be repeatedly stonewalled. Eventually what appears to be their management company (Cassava) sent an email reading: "As for the funds remaining in your account, of the total £6147.60, we will be returning the amount of £2795.10 to your Debit Card. As for the remaining funds, please be advised that this amount includes a bonus of £3000 which still has 8545 status points left to wager. As this is the case, you will be unable to withdraw this outstanding amount."

I can't see how 888 have arrived at the figure they have returned, nor can I see anything in my activities at 888 to deserve this kind of treatment. Why did they credit my account with the bonus a week before banning me if it were not to lure me into (pointlessly) risking tens of thousands of pounds more money redeeming a bonus they never intended honouring? I think they are indulging in at best some real 'sharp practice' here and at worst downright criminality.

 

[twiggy60]

So - SheepyT...

What did you have to do to achieve such a volte face from 888? What leverage did you bring? In your first message you mention that this was the second time they pulled the trick on you but you still received full payment? What happened the first time?

It sounds like you may have the key to making 888 honour their obligations.

I received my settlement after an e-mail from Franck R (on behalf of Bernadette Edwards, head of VIP). It might be worth getting in touch with either of these people if you haven't already.

That was only two weeks subsequent to receiving the following e-mail afer I complained:

"Thank you for your email and while I can understand your frustration at being denied the bonus for the November Thriller promotion I must inform you that the decision taken by our Security Department is a completely separate one based on the recurring patterns of your playing activity. It is not related to the promotion in any way.



Our investigations are ongoing and at this stage your account has been closed based on their findings.

We will be in touch with you in due course and in the meantime your account with us will remain closed."

Prior to that I had my acount blocked and funds withdrawn without my permission and received this e-mail from Stuart H in the operations department (a matter of a few days after completing over £1million of wagering and requesting the bonus):

"I am Stuart H. from the Security Department at Cassava Enterprises (Gibraltar) Ltd.

I am contacting you in regards to your 888casino account with username "xxxxxxxxx".

During the course of the lifetime of a member’s account we reserve the right to carry out security checks so as to ensure the integrity of the account. We have recently carried out such enhanced security checks in relation to your account.

As a result of these checks we have been made aware of certain patterns within your game-play, which we believe are inconsistent with the restrictions contained in our Terms and Conditions.

In view of the above, and in accordance with the aforementioned Terms and Conditions, I must inform you that your account is now permanently blocked from use. Please do not open any further accounts with any of our sites as these too will be blocked with the possible loss of any funds that have been deposited or won on any such accounts."

My view is that if 888 have 'guaranteed' to pay £10k bonus money in return for the wagering they should do nithing less than pay that amount!

 

[plangston]

So did you actually file a complaint? Or have any of you done this? eCogra, GRA, whatever..

I've tried going down the ecogra route with no success. To begin with I had a fairly dismissive response from Tex Rees quoting from 888 T&Cs highlighting this particular passage:

“In the interests of fair play on our Sites it is prohibited to utilise any recognised betting techniques to circumvent the standard house edge in our games. This includes (but is not limited to) any attempts at card counting. If the game play on your account indicates that you are using such betting techniques we shall immediately block the account and retain any funds in said account.”

and informing me that:

“we are confident that the operator has acted according to their Terms and Conditions and as such I must inform you that we find your dispute to be invalid.”

In a follow-up call when I was trying to find out what I was supposed to have done wrong, Tex told me she couldn’t disclose the details of what I had done wrong because:

“if players understand how these patterns are figured out they (888) can’t fight against them” – my emphasis

All this gave me the impression that ecogra were “owned” by 888 so I responded with this email:

“Hi Tex

I must confess to being disappointed, though not surprised, by your findings.

I had hoped mediation might help me, and 888, avoid more expensive and messy civil proceedings. To this end may I please ask you now to pass to an independent mediator the supposed evidence from 888 that convinces you they acted lawfully in enticing me into substantial (and loss-making) wagering for a bonus they subsequently failed to pay.

You have suggested that disclosing 888’s case against me could damage the casino industry! This is risible. I am not a card counter. There was no “system” behind the way I lost all that money wagering for 888’s promised Thriller bonus. I never breached the Terms and Conditions of the 888 Thriller offer. 888 clearly did breach their own Terms and Conditions by wrongfully withholding their promised bonus.

But, if you are not happy with passing my game-play records to an independent mediator then please may I ask you to pass this so-called “evidence”, that you rely on for your opinion, to my solicitors. I am sure they will be willing to supply you with an undertaking not to use the supposedly “confidential” information to the detriment of the on-line gaming industry. (I shall be using a Gibraltar-based legal firm as my English solicitors advise this is necessary for jurisdictional reasons.)

For the record can you please confirm that the reason you cannot tell me anything about 888’s rejection of my claim is because 888 will not grant you permission?

Likewise, for the record, can you please confirm that 888 was one of the founders of the supposedly-independent eCOGRA organisation.

Please may I also ask you to confirm that the former 888 chief executive, John Anderson – who continues to serve as a director of 888 Holdings – is also a director of eCOGRA.

I am assuming your eCOGRA case file is now closed on my claim for that wrongfully withheld 888 bonus. So, unless you state otherwise, I shall proceed on the basis that the non-disclosure/no-publicity agreement I entered into at the start of our “mediation” process is now over.

Regards”

Well, I never got a reply to that email.

This was a couple of month ago. Since then I have tried to keep up a regular dialogue with Tex but she is usually unavailable to take my call/answer my email. I did manage to get through today though. Asked why ecogra were unable to tell me exactly what was my breach of 888 T&Cs, she said that:

​

“eCogra is unable to release information if the casino feels it will affect their security"

She then advised me:
“when a player is not happy with the outcome of ecogra’s attempts to mediate they can only suggest that the player approach the local authority in Gibraltar and request a review”

So, it seems like it’s the end of the line for ecogra and me. I think it’s telling that 888 feel so threatened by their punters that they need to “fight against them”. If that’s the case then they’re not fit to operate a casino and if ecogra are so obviously in their pocket then they’re not fit to offer what they claim is a “mediation service”

I am also concerned by the similarity between ecogra's reply to ososurrey and their reply to me. It looks like a cut and paste job. Rather as if ecogra are simply putting an official rubber stamp onto whatever 888 tries to get away with. There is no evidence of any detailed investigation by ecogra (or even of the most cursory checking of facts) before they reached their finding.

If any other 888 victims with a similar experience to mine are interested in joining with me in presenting a case for review to the Gibraltar Regulatory Authority then please message me.

 

[SheepyT]

@twiggy60 - I'm afraid I don't have the key to making 888 honour their guarantees, but my experience would suggest that one should not settle for nothing and certainly not be afraid to go back and demand what is rightfully yours after you've been shafted.

On the first occasion I was taken by surprise by 888 witholding my bonus. On that occasion I was owed £50,000! Eventually I said I would settle for £20k to aovid the heartache of mediation or any other action and to maintain a good relationship with 888. I made it clear this was my final offer but my account manager only came back with half that amount as their 'final offer'. Regretfully I accepted and took the £40k hit.

The second time I got refused a bonus (in the Thriller competition) I made it crystal clear I wasn't going to sacrifice any of the bonus I earned this time round. 888 did the right thing and paid up.

Send me a PM if you want to know any more details - or the results of my investigations into what other courses of action are available in seeking redress.

@plangston - you have mail.

 

[Ososurrey]

Hi plangston, I'd be up for joining in doing something via the Gib authorities. I'll personal message you my e-mail address so we can discuss privately if you like.

 

[kma]

You'll have to excuse me, this online forum thing is all a bit new to me! I had the same problem back in November with the 888 offer. I'd been playing for quyite a while and they upgraded me to their 'high roller club' and started bombarding me with email offers - whoopee i thought - can't be a bad thing, but just suckered me into playing lots more and then refused to pay out on bonuses saying id 'broken terms and conditions' but never saying how or if theyd give me the bonus. never saw any cash from the buggers

 

[Nifty29]

I've tried going down the ecogra route with no success. To begin with I had a fairly dismissive response from Tex Rees quoting from 888 T&Cs highlighting this particular passage:

“In the interests of fair play on our Sites it is prohibited to utilise any recognised betting techniques to circumvent the standard house edge in our games. This includes (but is not limited to) any attempts at card counting. If the game play on your account indicates that you are using such betting techniques we shall immediately block the account and retain any funds in said account.”

and informing me that:

“we are confident that the operator has acted according to their Terms and Conditions and as such I must inform you that we find your dispute to be invalid.”

In a follow-up call when I was trying to find out what I was supposed to have done wrong, Tex told me she couldn’t disclose the details of what I had done wrong because:

“if players understand how these patterns are figured out they (888) can’t fight against them” – my emphasis

All this gave me the impression that ecogra were “owned” by 888 so I responded with this email:

“Hi Tex

I must confess to being disappointed, though not surprised, by your findings.

I had hoped mediation might help me, and 888, avoid more expensive and messy civil proceedings. To this end may I please ask you now to pass to an independent mediator the supposed evidence from 888 that convinces you they acted lawfully in enticing me into substantial (and loss-making) wagering for a bonus they subsequently failed to pay.

You have suggested that disclosing 888’s case against me could damage the casino industry! This is risible. I am not a card counter. There was no “system” behind the way I lost all that money wagering for 888’s promised Thriller bonus. I never breached the Terms and Conditions of the 888 Thriller offer. 888 clearly did breach their own Terms and Conditions by wrongfully withholding their promised bonus.

But, if you are not happy with passing my game-play records to an independent mediator then please may I ask you to pass this so-called “evidence”, that you rely on for your opinion, to my solicitors. I am sure they will be willing to supply you with an undertaking not to use the supposedly “confidential” information to the detriment of the on-line gaming industry. (I shall be using a Gibraltar-based legal firm as my English solicitors advise this is necessary for jurisdictional reasons.)

For the record can you please confirm that the reason you cannot tell me anything about 888’s rejection of my claim is because 888 will not grant you permission?

Likewise, for the record, can you please confirm that 888 was one of the founders of the supposedly-independent eCOGRA organisation.

Please may I also ask you to confirm that the former 888 chief executive, John Anderson – who continues to serve as a director of 888 Holdings – is also a director of eCOGRA.

I am assuming your eCOGRA case file is now closed on my claim for that wrongfully withheld 888 bonus. So, unless you state otherwise, I shall proceed on the basis that the non-disclosure/no-publicity agreement I entered into at the start of our “mediation” process is now over.

Regards”

Well, I never got a reply to that email.

This was a couple of month ago. Since then I have tried to keep up a regular dialogue with Tex but she is usually unavailable to take my call/answer my email. I did manage to get through today though. Asked why ecogra were unable to tell me exactly what was my breach of 888 T&Cs, she said that:

​

“eCogra is unable to release information if the casino feels it will affect their security"

She then advised me:
“when a player is not happy with the outcome of ecogra’s attempts to mediate they can only suggest that the player approach the local authority in Gibraltar and request a review”

So, it seems like it’s the end of the line for ecogra and me. I think it’s telling that 888 feel so threatened by their punters that they need to “fight against them”. If that’s the case then they’re not fit to operate a casino and if ecogra are so obviously in their pocket then they’re not fit to offer what they claim is a “mediation service”

I am also concerned by the similarity between ecogra's reply to ososurrey and their reply to me. It looks like a cut and paste job. Rather as if ecogra are simply putting an official rubber stamp onto whatever 888 tries to get away with. There is no evidence of any detailed investigation by ecogra (or even of the most cursory checking of facts) before they reached their finding.

If any other 888 victims with a similar experience to mine are interested in joining with me in presenting a case for review to the Gibraltar Regulatory Authority then please message me.

The problem is that you agreed to those shitty terms in the first place....and they are very shitty.

I just don't understand why people play at places that have these "if we think you were listening to 80's music while playing we will not pay you" ridiculous terms.

Of course it is awful when someone doesn't get paid legitimate winnings, but I find it difficult to be sympathetic as in most cases, like yours, the terms were there and agreed to. You have only yourself to blame.

 

[SheepyT]

888 are based in Gibraltar, which is subject to EU law and as such must embody EEC directives regarding unfair contract terms into their law. I believe that a judge would look dimly upon a casino trying to use 'bonus abuse' or any other spurious terms to avoid honouring contract terms.

This act sounds like it was written to deal with casinos and other unscrupulous companies...examples of unfair terms given by the act include:

making an agreement binding on the consumer whereas
provision of services by the seller or supplier is subject to a
condition whose realisation depends on his own will alone;

This would seem to be a fair description of most casino Ts & Cs, including 888 in my view.

www.gibraltarlaws.gov.gi/articles/1998-37o.pdf

The text of the Act can be read above. plangston and others may wish to show this to their solicitors.

 

[Nifty29]

888 are based in Gibraltar, which is subject to EU law and as such must embody EEC directives regarding unfair contract terms into their law. I believe that a judge would look dimly upon a casino trying to use 'bonus abuse' or any other spurious terms to avoid honouring contract terms.

This act sounds like it was written to deal with casinos and other unscrupulous companies...examples of unfair terms given by the act include:

making an agreement binding on the consumer whereas
provision of services by the seller or supplier is subject to a
condition whose realisation depends on his own will alone;

This would seem to be a fair description of most casino Ts & Cs, including 888 in my view.

www.gibraltarlaws.gov.gi/articles/1998-37o.pdf

The text of the Act can be read above. plangston and others may wish to show this to their solicitors.

Are you a solicitor Sleepy?

 

[SheepyT]

Are you a solicitor Sleepy?

Hi Nifty,

I'm not a solicitor by profession, but I have regular dealings with legal teams in my work for a local authority and also in relation to family matters.

 

[Rightangle]

Been visiting this site on and off for years now to keep my finger on the pulse of what's happening in the on-line gaming world, but never posted before. It looks like you may be getting a group action rolling against 888, whilst I don't need to chase them for any money myself maybe my experience with them will help you build a picture of their activities around that time...

I too got drawn in to 888's Thriller bonus promo, just before Christmas as I recall. It was a 3k bonus, way bigger than any other bonus I had ever received, but long winter evenings so I thought why not? At that time it seemed like every time you logged on at 888 they were pushing one bonus or another at you, it was actually pretty confusing working out just where you were at with all the different promo's. I suddenly got bonus banned, but it must be said that 888 paid out on all my bonuses. It did leave a sour taste though, one day they honour you with high roller status and next thing they are bonus banning you for no reason, no reason I could see anyway. I just walked away from 888 thinking 'how bizarre is that'.

Good luck with recovering your bonuses, and be sure to keep us posted on the thread heh!

 

[Ososurrey]

The problem is that you agreed to those shitty terms in the first place....and they are very shitty.

I just don't understand why people play at places that have these "if we think you were listening to 80's music while playing we will not pay you" ridiculous terms.

Of course it is awful when someone doesn't get paid legitimate winnings, but I find it difficult to be sympathetic as in most cases, like yours, the terms were there and agreed to. You have only yourself to blame.

If you don't mind me saying Nifty, that's not a very helpful post from such an experienced member. As SleepyT points out, the casino T&Cs can't be used to allow them to escape contractual obligations in the way they have. There needs to be proper explanation of the supposed breach.

Thanks Rightangle for sharing your experiences, it does look like a group of us may test 888's legal position and yes, I'm sure we'll be able to post results.

 

[Nifty29]

If you don't mind me saying Nifty, that's not a very helpful post from such an experienced member. As SleepyT points out, the casino T&Cs can't be used to allow them to escape contractual obligations in the way they have. There needs to be proper explanation of the supposed breach.

Thanks Rightangle for sharing your experiences, it does look like a group of us may test 888's legal position and yes, I'm sure we'll be able to post results.

You agreed to the terms. If you don't want to be held to those terms, you shouldn't have played. You can't pick and choose.

I wasn't trying to be helpful. I was simply stating the obvious and pointing out the reality of the situation I.e. that the terms invoked were accepted by you when creating your account, so there is most certainly responsibility on the players side.

If the casino had added the terms after and/or not listed them on the site etc, then fair enough, but it is obvious that some didn't read the terms, and the onus is on the player to do so.

I'm giving you the benefit of my experience.

 

[Ososurrey]

You agreed to the terms. If you don't want to be held to those terms, you shouldn't have played. You can't pick and choose.

I wasn't trying to be helpful. I was simply stating the obvious and pointing out the reality of the situation I.e. that the terms invoked were accepted by you when creating your account, so there is most certainly responsibility on the players side.

If the casino had added the terms after and/or not listed them on the site etc, then fair enough, but it is obvious that some didn't read the terms, and the onus is on the player to do so.

I'm giving you the benefit of my experience.

Thank you Nifty, always good to get feedback from folk but you just sound suspiciously similar to (the now discredited) ecogra. In my view the TorC has yet to be written which could legitimise my experience with 888. I refer you back to my earlier explanatory post.