What do Casinos mean by "Use of a System"???

[Westland Bowl]

I've been around a long time in playing online casino games, particularly blackjack. Up until recently, I have always thought that online casinos were referencing use of computers and bots to play online casino games when they mention "systems." But now I'm getting the impression from reading some recent posts here that the casinos mean a betting system when they mention "systems" in their terms and conditions.

So does this mean that use of a Martingale betting system, any sort of progressive/repressive betting system or cat turd reading betting system is in violation of the terms and conditions in regards to "use of a system"??? If so, wouldn't this go against prevailing knowledge that betting systems don't work, at least in the long run when luck evens out?

So "use of a system" means what.... a betting system or a computer system?

 

[vinylweatherman]

I've been around a long time in playing online casino games, particularly blackjack. Up until recently, I have always thought that online casinos were referencing use of computers and bots to play online casino games when they mention "systems." But now I'm getting the impression from reading some recent posts here that the casinos mean a betting system when they mention "systems" in their terms and conditions.

So does this mean that use of a Martingale betting system, any sort of progressive/repressive betting system or cat turd reading betting system is in violation of the terms and conditions in regards to "use of a system"??? If so, wouldn't this go against prevailing knowledge that betting systems don't work, at least in the long run when luck evens out?

So "use of a system" means what.... a betting system or a computer system?

From some rep replies, it seems ANY kind of pattern, even if not a known betting system, can be used to void a win. Given that systems don't work on a random game, it seems that many casino managers are in the wrong job.

The problem here is that any player can be accused of using a system, because one can find "patterns" in anything if you look hard enough.

 

[raj]

Any casino with any confidence behind the randomness and mathematical probability models and paytable behind its games, would welcome with open arms anyone wishing to try a "system".

This applies to all games with the possible exception of non random AWP's of which I believe Vinalweatherman is an "old master".

Raj
bidbingo

 

[KasinoKing]

So "use of a system" means what.... a betting system or a computer system?

I have always taken it to mean any betting system - whether computer aided, or manually undertaken.

Casinos who have this term are obviously trying to cover their ass for any unforeseen eventuality, but I think only in extreme exceptional cases would any reputable casino enforce it.

KK

 

[Mousey]

From some rep replies, it seems ANY kind of pattern, even if not a known betting system, can be used to void a win. Given that systems don't work on a random game, it seems that many casino managers are in the wrong job.

The problem here is that any player can be accused of using a system, because one can find "patterns" in anything if you look hard enough.

I had an aunt who loved keno. She always, always included her husband's birthday as one of the numbers when she picked. Always. That's a system too, as ridiculous as it sounds. Susperstition... system... most cases there is no difference. I may hold the high card in VP hand everytime my cat sneezes on the deal... that's a system...

Knowing proper BJ and VP strategy could be considered a 'system'... we've seen that some casinos disallow 'systems or strategies' ...

Some casinos worry about the 'take a bonus, bet big with the initial bets to either win or bust out, then grind out the WR' 'system'.

We've also seen that casinos - whether manager or owner - have no regard for the 'numbers' - Odds, etc. ... most of them are even more clueless than I am....

Now... would one of you guys point me to the thread this one is coming off of... I've just woke up and I've lost track...

 

[Nifty29]

Any casino with any confidence behind the randomness and mathematical probability models and paytable behind its games, would welcome with open arms anyone wishing to try a "system".

This applies to all games with the possible exception of non random AWP's of which I believe Vinalweatherman is an "old master".

Raj
bidbingo

I'm telling you right now.....if 32Red even suspected Vinylweatherman or anyone else had found a way to consistently beat their AWP games via some kind of programming error (which is what it would have to be), they would have removed those games permanently or at least banned bonus play on them. Any casino would, and there is no way they have been online all these years without casinos noticing that certain players are "taking them to the cleaners".

You do see some big wins, but you don't hear about the big losses....and they happen, as I'm sure vinyl would, if being honest, admit. It may be possible to "see" some kind of jackpot coming on an AWP, but unless you can make/force it to happen every session then you will lose in the end. Even TI could be forced, but still pay back less than what was put in. The hiphopohippopippopotsmus or whatever it is....that is not forceable. If you hit big, it is pure luck....and luck cannot be controlled, so if you cannot control the game then you cannot win consistently. Vinyl might be ahead over the past few years on AWPs, but it could just as easily have happened playing normal slots.

If there really was a concrete way to rip off AWPs, the bonus and casino whore forums would be full of players cashing in every day. The truth is, if you sink $5000 into ANY slot (like vinyl has told us he has done regularly), you would have a fair chance to triple or quadruple your money at some point. It would be an interesting experiment to put $5000 through an AWP and then a conventional slot and see what the net result is of each. It might be an eye opener.

I'm not saying VWM is lying by any means, just that you need to understand the sums of money he puts through them and that he doesn't always win. After all, there's no copy in that is there. As I said, 32red, as fantastic as they are, would not be taking his or anyone else's action if they thought any kind of manipulation was possible, and/or being done.

 

[Westland Bowl]

In all my play and knowledge of real casinos, the brick-and-mortar-and-mind-control-carpet-patterned casinos, they never, EVER, have banned players because they use a betting system aside from card counting (Don Johnson excepted). For online casinos to put language into their terms and conditions for players to not use a betting strategy or betting system is to acknowledge that some of the betting systems work. Either some betting strategies work or their RNG is not really random, that it has some type of compensating controls over the win/loss outcomes. In another thread on here, perhaps this is why one online casino shut down the live dealer option for a player and encouraged him to play the RNG version of their blackjack. So if betting systems do not really work then online casinos terms and conditions seem to indicate the opposite. Dem all crazy!

 

[raj]

Hi Nifty,

Non random AWP's can be beaten, well certainly in the land based UK sector anyway, through selective and controlled gameplay and learning/understanding the program the machine is adhering to. Also the non random nature of AWPs leaves them prone to programming errors, some deliberate,some accidental.

I spent a lot of years in the early 90's topping up my income using AWP's like this and i know Vinalw. did the same. I am not sure how/if he has managed to perfect the same methods for online AWP's.

I had the pleasure of meeting Vinalweatherman at a Casinomaster meet a few years ago and we spent a pleasurable hour or two exchanging AWP stories from back in the days when there were rich pickings to be had. He is very knowledgable and his tales are most definately true. I gave up all this a long time ago as it got harder and harder to make it pay, but I beleive Vinal still dabbles in this sector.

Raj

I'm telling you right now.....if 32Red even suspected Vinylweatherman or anyone else had found a way to consistently beat their AWP games via some kind of programming error (which is what it would have to be), they would have removed those games permanently or at least banned bonus play on them. Any casino would, and there is no way they have been online all these years without casinos noticing that certain players are "taking them to the cleaners".

You do see some big wins, but you don't hear about the big losses....and they happen, as I'm sure vinyl would, if being honest, admit. It may be possible to "see" some kind of jackpot coming on an AWP, but unless you can make/force it to happen every session then you will lose in the end. Even TI could be forced, but still pay back less than what was put in. The hiphopohippopippopotsmus or whatever it is....that is not forceable. If you hit big, it is pure luck....and luck cannot be controlled, so if you cannot control the game then you cannot win consistently. Vinyl might be ahead over the past few years on AWPs, but it could just as easily have happened playing normal slots.

If there really was a concrete way to rip off AWPs, the bonus and casino whore forums would be full of players cashing in every day. The truth is, if you sink $5000 into ANY slot (like vinyl has told us he has done regularly), you would have a fair chance to triple or quadruple your money at some point. It would be an interesting experiment to put $5000 through an AWP and then a conventional slot and see what the net result is of each. It might be an eye opener.

I'm not saying VWM is lying by any means, just that you need to understand the sums of money he puts through them and that he doesn't always win. After all, there's no copy in that is there. As I said, 32red, as fantastic as they are, would not be taking his or anyone else's action if they thought any kind of manipulation was possible, and/or being done.

 

[Nifty29]

Hi Nifty,

Non random AWP's can be beaten, well certainly in the land based UK sector anyway, through selective and controlled gameplay and learning/understanding the program the machine is adhering to. Also the non random nature of AWPs leaves them prone to programming errors, some deliberate,some accidental.

I spent a lot of years in the early 90's topping up my income using AWP's like this and i know Vinalw. did the same. I am not sure how/if he has managed to perfect the same methods for online AWP's.

I had the pleasure of meeting Vinalweatherman at a Casinomaster meet a few years ago and we spent a pleasurable hour or two exchanging AWP stories from back in the days when there were rich pickings to be had. He is very knowledgable and his tales are most definately true. I gave up all this a long time ago as it got harder and harder to make it pay, but I beleive Vinal still dabbles in this sector.

Raj

Yes, I'm up with vinyls exploits with the old fruities, but the online versions are a different animal almost completely.

It's not possible to use button combinations or forcing (the latter is possible on some but can cost more than it pays) and other methods.

My point is that IF he can fleece them by exploiting errors, then so can others, and it would have caused him issues before now.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Yes, I'm up with vinyls exploits with the old fruities, but the online versions are a different animal almost completely.

It's not possible to use button combinations or forcing (the latter is possible on some but can cost more than it pays) and other methods.

My point is that IF he can fleece them by exploiting errors, then so can others, and it would have caused him issues before now.

Well, Prime casino held up a £500 withdrawal after my previous £6K+ plus win off the AWP fruities was paid. They were "investigating" my account they said, and said they had to follow eCogra procedures. My documents had been verified already, and they didn't want any documents again. I agreed that they were correct about the eGap provisions, and I would wait the full 14 days before taking the matter further. I was paid the next day!

What was more interesting is that although they paid, having found nothing in the investigation, Ruby Fortune dropped me like the proverbial "hot potato" the following week by booting me so far out of the VIP program that I didn't even get the lucky draw and wager challenge invites, let alone any deposit offers.

I had been playing almost exclusively on the AWP games, and caned Prime's ass.

I have still not had a proper explanation as to why Treasure Ireland will not be accepted back by the majority of operators, even though the glitch in balance tracking was fixed early in 2010.

It does seem some operators are wary of these AWP games, and are looking into my exploits, but finding nothing untoward.

Whilst they can take over 10K to squeeze out a mere 5K by "forcing", I redress the balance by the occasional "megastreak" than can pay tens of thousands after a few hundred quid has gone through. Other than Six Bomb, no AWP on offer has completely caned MY ass.

Perhaps I do remember the big hits, and underestimate the long spells of shovelling money in and getting little out. I do not keep detailed records like KK, just total deposits and total cashins.

I suspect that if loads of players tried all the various tactics on these games MGS would look more closely, or operators might consider them not to be "slots", and weight play on them as they do the other non slot games.

Maybe MGS are willing to do nothing rather than take action that would expose the true nature of these games via an "on the record" statement from MGS.

I have tried the AWP style offerings at Intercasino, but they showed no sign of being compensated or in any sense "doable". MGS versions DO behave as though there might be a chance that a game play strategy exists that can trick them into paying 100% long term, although I have yet to find one.

 

[threescatters]

How much did you win on treasure island vinyl?

 

[hucorte]

As I stated in another thread, if a casino wants to void your winning, they can do it even with slots. If you "use martingale" there and suddenly you get lucky and cash out...oops you were using a betting pattern.

 

[vinylweatherman]

How much did you win on treasure island vinyl?

Which one? - I have had more big wins from this AWP than I can keep track of

 

[skiny]

The problem here is that any player can be accused of using a system, because one can find "patterns" in anything if you look hard enough.

My Cheerios spelled ooo ooo ooo this morning.

They were disqualified.


I ate them anyway.

 

[Westland Bowl]

Over at the Purple Lounge megathread, there was mention about PL probably waiting for players to deposit and lose in order to pay winning players but it appears that never happened and now they are in trouble. It always amuses me that will all the house advantage inherit in these casino games that they end up going broke. PL's head company kept giving PL money to pay players and I'm sure they were wondering, "Why aren't the players LOSING so we don't have to dish out all this money! Were is that bloody "long-term" that is supposed to kick in for the house advantage?"

Do you think the PL players just got lucky, even long-term lucky, or were most of them using a "system?"

 

[Jufo]

Over at the Purple Lounge megathread, there was mention about PL probably waiting for players to deposit and lose in order to pay winning players but it appears that never happened and now they are in trouble. It always amuses me that will all the house advantage inherit in these casino games that they end up going broke. PL's head company kept giving PL money to pay players and I'm sure they were wondering, "Why aren't the players LOSING so we don't have to dish out all this money! Were is that bloody "long-term" that is supposed to kick in for the house advantage?"

Do you think the PL players just got lucky, even long-term lucky, or were most of them using a "system?"

Well PL was giving deposit match bonuses quite regularly. At some point I got from them £400 in 100% deposit match bonuses every week! I didn't end up winning from them but I heard some others made a consistent profit from their bonuses. So bonus advantage play is one possibility.