Are Slots Really Random?

[Nate]

Hi All,

Wanted a bit of your insight.... The question begs... ARE SLOTS REALLY RANDOM?

If you were to get the Free Spins on a particular game, do you think that your chances of winning any particular combination during the free spins are good or do you think before you even decide to play, the outcome may have already been predetermined for you...

Your thoughts and comments will be appreciated...

Me

 

[lots0]

There are about 500 different threads on this exact subject here.

M 2 cents...

If you believe in a predetermined fate, then the outcome was pre determined.

However, if you believe in Randomness, Chaos and Mathmatics, then it was just statistically your time to win/lose.

 

[Nate]

There are about 500 different threads on this exact subject here.

M 2 cents...

If you believe in a predetermined fate, then the outcome was pre determined.

However, if you believe in Randomness, Chaos and Mathmatics, then it was just statistically your time to win/lose.

Thank You Lotso... I apologize if there is repetition on the subject, however; thank you for the comment none the less...

My Scenario: I get 10 free spins at a 3x multiplier... before i click spin, do you think the game has already predetermined my win, or is every spin random and that anything can happen???

 

[KasinoKing]

If you were to get the Free Spins on a particular game, do you think that your chances of winning any particular combination during the free spins are good or do you think before you even decide to play, the outcome may have already been predetermined for you...

What's the difference?
If the spins are truly random you will win between X and Y.
If the predetermined win is truly random you will win between X and Y.

I tend to believe random as far as free-spins go; because the programmer would have to be a real bastard to design a predetermined win of ZERO!

You know, I've been playing slots just about EVERY DAY since 2005 and I can't saw with hand on heart that they are 100% definitely random - but I think they are.

KK

 

[Nate]

What's the difference?
If the spins are truly random you will win between X and Y.
If the predetermined win is truly random you will win between X and Y.

I tend to believe random as far as free-spins go; because the programmer would have to be a real bastard to design a predetermined win of ZERO!

You know, I've been playing slots just about EVERY DAY since 2005 and I can't saw with hand on heart that they are 100% definitely random - but I think they are.

KK

Lets say i got 10 free spins at a 3 X multiplier... and for some reason i see the outcome of the free spins before they are even spun (software blip)... would that then mean that they are still random ...or that they are predetermined and each spin was already calculated before you hit the feature?

 

[KasinoKing]

Lets say i got 10 free spins at a 3 X multiplier... and for some reason i see the outcome of the free spins before they are even spun (software blip)... would that then mean that they are still random ...or that they are predetermined and each spin was already calculated before you hit the feature?

Again, what's the difference?

When you see the reels spinning on your screen, that is just "eye candy".
The moment you click on spin the outcome is instantly determined.
It has been confirmed by an RTG engineer that their free-spins are all generated at once and then sent to your computer in one "packet" of information. No reason to think other softwares don't work the same.

KK

 

[aceking123]

hi i would of thought that its pre done , if the software fails you log back in & carry on from where it failed so i would of thought it knows what you would of got before you pressed start , bm casino now have a load up game when you hit a feature so its kind of the same. cant see that as random at all , not unless that part of it is random.

 

[Nate]

Again, what's the difference?

When you see the reels spinning on your screen, that is just "eye candy".
The moment you click on spin the outcome is instantly determined.
It has been confirmed by an RTG engineer that their free-spins are all generated at once and then sent to your computer in one "packet" of information. No reason to think other softwares don't work the same.

KK

I like that Explanation... Thanks KK

 

[bgermain1985]

I'm going to say that it is random.

Especially with free spins. I mean, there's been times where I win 57c off a 40c wager during bonus round.

I've bet 1c and have won 40$ during free spins (4000x total bet)


Now, again that is free spins. Multiplier wins and wheel wins are far from honest depending on the game. Things like that I like to refer to as 'weighted'.

For example, you can win a range of 3x-100x total bet. In that case, I like to think your prize is predetermined and then unclaimed prizes are randomly calculated. In 3 reel wheel bonuses, those big prize money wheels will selectively spot on smaller pays and do not correctly reflect the 'suggested' odds on landing a particular value. Reminds me of those ticket games for wheel of fortune or Cyclone where you chase the light going in circles. That is a skill game, yes, but the timing window for the value you actually want is much smaller than the rest of them.

 

[lots0]

Thank You Lotso... I apologize if there is repetition on the subject, however; thank you for the comment none the less...

No need to apologize. What I meant was... there is a LOT of info on this paticular subject here... even some perdy good rants and argments from all kinds of experts and players, if you care to look around.

 

[Mavin1]

What's the difference?
If the spins are truly random you will win between X and Y.
If the predetermined win is truly random you will win between X and Y.

I tend to believe random as far as free-spins go; because the programmer would have to be a real bastard to design a predetermined win of ZERO!

You know, I've been playing slots just about EVERY DAY since 2005 and I can't saw with hand on heart that they are 100% definitely random - but I think they are.

KK

So those of us that get the free spin features and win "ZERO", found the bastard programmer? Wish they would figure out which programmer that is and fire him/her!!!!!
They have a sadistic sense of humor!

My thoughts on randomness, yes I do believe you can have a random game, not saying where, ones play will tell them that. But I had played at one online casino and got a really nice hit on my 3rd spin in. This to me would indicate true randomness. But to have to spin 100's of times to hit a decent return or feature, on each game played one after the other, then I would doubt randomness.

Then again, maybe it's that same sadistic programmer!

 

[darkpixie]

In the short term yes the games are random, over the long term no. Nothing can be Random, if it is set to pay out at 90% or up. The fact that the game is fed this variable removes the randomness of the game. IMHO.

There are only 2 kinds of truly random slot machines:

#1 Ones which pay out 100% over the long term.
#2 3 reel B&M games with the RTP built into the reels.

Video slots can not be random, because their results are generated by the RTP variable.

 

[zap987]

In the short term yes the games are random, over the long term no. Nothing can be Random, if it is set to pay out at 90% or up. The fact that the game is fed this variable removes the randomness of the game. IMHO.

There are only 2 kinds of truly random slot machines:

#1 Ones which pay out 100% over the long term.
#2 3 reel B&M games with the RTP built into the reels.

Video slots can not be random, because their results are generated by the RTP variable.

The RTP on video slots are built into the reel design just like in your #2, the RTP isn't a number fed to the machine which decide what wins the slot shows, it's calculated from the reel design. If RTP is exactly 100%, 95% or even 10% it can still be completely random. For software like RTG that can change RTP on slots, it's done by changing the reels, see for example the thread about double pears on Fruit Frenzy.

 

[KasinoKing]

In the short term yes the games are random, over the long term no. Nothing can be Random, if it is set to pay out at 90% or up. The fact that the game is fed this variable removes the randomness of the game. IMHO.

What Zap said.
You are way off the mark there.
What you said may well be true of Fruit Machines (AWPs), but not on proper Video Slots.

KK

 

[takethemoney]

I think the slots were only completely random back in the day when the reels were launched into action, once your coin unlocked the handle for the pull. There were 20 stops on the reel and each one corresponded to a symbol. The only electronics involved were those that kept the lights on and those that kept track of your coins, based on what combo you hit. The reels would spin until they decided to stop, paying whatever combo they landed on. I wonder how they controlled the RTP on those? Actually, it wasn't an RTP it was the course of odds.

We live in an age of computerization, where software controls everything, based on what it is told to do by those with an interest in telling it what to do. In the casino's case, the software is programmed to turn a profit, while providing an interesting and fun gaming enviroment for the player. The casino's amount of need is programmed into the outcome of the games over time. Yes, to an extent they are all rigged. If a casino wants to hold 8% of the handle, well, it damn well better do that, since that is what they paid for the software to do. From the very first time you make a deposit and lose, you have begun a cycle that works in the casino's favor, for most people. Some people are an anomaly. If a person wins a great sum of money on their first few deposits, they may never be able to deposit and play enough to experience a loss before another win comes. There is a small handfull that will always be ahead of the curve. Most gamblers will end up losers over time.

 

[KasinoKing]

I think the slots were only completely random back in the day when the reels were launched into action, once your coin unlocked the handle for the pull. There were 20 stops on the reel and each one corresponded to a symbol. The only electronics involved were those that kept the lights on and those that kept track of your coins, based on what combo you hit.
The reels would spin until they decided to stop, paying whatever combo they landed on. I wonder how they controlled the RTP on those? Actually, it wasn't an RTP it was the course of odds.

Well actually you could be mistaken there!

Back in my younger years I actually bought a couple of old fruit machines for money boxes at home; One in particular, which must have been produced late 70's or very early 80's, was a 10p play, £100 jackpot machine.

Now by opening up the back I could hit the spin button and hold the reels in place, waiting for the solenoids to release the "stopper arms" and so produce any win I wanted.
BUT sometimes (obviously when the machine hadn't taken enough in) it WOULD NOT stop on the jackpot. I could hold the reels for ages and the motor would just carry on trying to spin them until I let go and so produce a non-jackpot combination.

So in the UK at least, fruit machines machines have been controlled by RTP for at least the last 30 years...

KK

 

[maphesto]

If a casino wants to hold 8% of the handle, well, it damn well better do that, since that is what they paid for the software to do.

The whole idea is that the reels and paytable already are calculated to give the casino their house edge.

To do it easy, you can imagine a slot machine with only one reel and it costs 1$/spin.
The reel has only 10 symbols which are numbers from 1 to 10, and here is the paytable:

1 = 1$
2 = 2$
3 = 3$
4 = 1$
5 = 1$
6 = 1$
7 = 0$
8 = 0$
9 = 0$
10=0$

The RTP is 90%

To do this with 5 reels and a lot of symbols with wilds and bonus games etc you can with a lot of maths combine it to a paytable with 95% rtp.

This is why casinos can adjust the rtp with adding/reducing symbols on reels.
The most known one is the additional pear on reel two on the RTG slot Fruit Frenzy.

From the very first time you make a deposit and lose, you have begun a cycle that works in the casino's favor, for most people.

The most common believe by players who notices changes in how the slots are behaving is that there is a cycle.

It's wrong. There is no cycle.
If it was a cycle, experienced players could easily figure out when to raisen the bet size.

With the software it's much easier for the to use other methods if they want to adjust/stabilize(call it want you want) the RTP.

All big casino softwares have a tested random number generator(RNG). Every time you click spin it produces a random number.

If we use the easy one reel machine I mentioned it can easily be tampered with to be either paying out more or less like this:

1. The machine has been paying to much lately, then when the RNG gives the machine the number 2 it's not approved and the RNG produces a new number, 4. Bingo, an approved number which is not paying out more than the bet.

2. The machine has payed out to less lately, then when the RNG produces a losing number the machine is not approve it and the RNG produces another number.

This was only an example and don't forget that the easiest way to cheat players is by todays crappy bonuses. To make players deposit and have a playthrough which is nearly impossible to make they have earned more money than the house edge

 

[rockycatt]

in this sample
1 = 1$
2 = 2$
3 = 3$
4 = 1$
5 = 1$
6 = 1$
7 = 0$
8 = 0$
9 = 0$
10=0$

The RTP is 90%

there is only six places to win out of a possible ten , i see that there is nine dollars in prizes = 90% of possible win if all ten spots are covered by a bet

how ever money aside there is only six spots to land on to win =60%
of a chance to win

so ive been told that there are different ways of accounting done by
corporations and this looks like a situation as that

plus this example would have to be a fixed bet size with all lines covered to work

so ? is there a mathematical advantage of playing less lines by one or two
i know its said to max a prize bet it full

but to change the odds of hitting a winning spot is this the same rule

RC

 

[maphesto]

in this sample
1 = 1$
2 = 2$
3 = 3$
4 = 1$
5 = 1$
6 = 1$
7 = 0$
8 = 0$
9 = 0$
10=0$

The RTP is 90%

there is only six places to win out of a possible ten , i see that there is nine dollars in prizes = 90% of possible win if all ten spots are covered by a bet

RTP = Return To Player

Look at this example:

1 = 0$
2 = 0$
3 = 0$
4 = 0$
5 = 0$
6 = 0$
7 = 0$
8 = 0$
9 = 0$
10=9$

The rtp is 90%

Don't mix rtp up with chance to win. The chance to win is another question which is to me a bad way to calculate.

how ever money aside there is only six spots to land on to win =60%
of a chance to win

so ive been told that there are different ways of accounting done by
corporations and this looks like a situation as that

No! RTP can only be calculated in one way.

plus this example would have to be a fixed bet size with all lines covered to work

I thought it was obvious that my one reel machine is a one line machine.
My machine could easily be an odds machine instead. Put 5 dollars in and you multiply every win by five instead.

RTP is still 90%

so ? is there a mathematical advantage of playing less lines by one or two
i know its said to max a prize bet it full

but to change the odds of hitting a winning spot is this the same rule

RC

There are no such thing as an mathematical advantage by playing less lines. The RTP is the same*.
But if you do play less lines on a machine and increase your bet/line you will have less chance to win but when you win it's of course bigger win.

* Slots with stacked wilds are harder to calculate this on. You can imaginge how bad it is to play one line and you see wilds all over the board...