Software Complaint Casino software issue at Maxino.com

[vinylweatherman]

I have had a quick look, and the slot will quite happily launch even if not logged in. Although it states that it is in "free play mode", and the credits are marked as "demo credits", there is no in-your-face warning that you have launched demo mode.

It starts on 2000 demo credits, and then plays just as it would in real money play.

However, I then hit a problem. The slot could not be closed, clicking on the "x" was repeatedly ignored, and then the whole browser locked up. It took Task manager to forcibly close things down.

It is possible that this problem IS a software issue, but one related to the browser.

If there is no record, it is possible that this was not simply free mode, but the demo mode that can be played without logging in. This of course would leave no transaction record anywhere, since there would be no customer account to tag it to.

The OP lost connection, and then had to log in again. The odd thing here is that they were able to carry on where they left off, which was playing out the bonus round. This does not make sense if they were playing for real, but got interrupted such that they left the game at the start of the bonus round. If they accidentally went to demo mode upon returning, the slot would be in demo mode, and the bonus round would not be there.

If by coincidence they hit the same bonus round in their first spin after returning, but accidentally in demo mode, the train of events could be explained by the player having accidentally entered demo mode to win the 5K. However, upon their return the real mode, their real mode bonus round should still be there. If it is, then case solved. If not, then there is another issue on top of that already described, one where demo and real play can intermingle. This could be a problem if the bug works in reverse, such as getting the bonus round in free play, and then being able to access it in real money mode, effectively how the Chief's Fortune fiasco worked, but only once on a newly registered account.

Someone with a Maxino account could check this possibilty out.

If the OP took a screenshot of their 5K win, this would settle once and for all the argument as to whether this was free/demo mode or real money mode.

 

[Casinomeister]

It is possible it IS solved, like the Chief's Fortune fiasco of 2006, but there is now a cover up and non release of information about the problem.

And you have proof of a cover up? C'mon, when you make bold statements like this, you need to back them up with evidence. I'm really disappointed that a long time member like you has donned the tin-foil hat.

...Unfortunately, MGS do have a history of the "cover up", and the Chief's Fortune fiasco isn't the only one I know of. They are all major faults that get fixed on the quiet, but never officially recognised. In fact, in the 2006 event a number of casinos folded and paid up during the PABs that ensued rather than tell Bryan what had really been going on. I told Max about it at the Meister Meeting over a year later, and despite having handled this event from the PAB side, it was the first he had heard of the underlying fault that hordes of players had jumped upon and milked for the best part of 3 months.

This leads to the suspicion that when MGS just don't get back to a player on an issue, it is because the fault identified is too much of an embarrassment for them to admit to.

There never was a cover up, and you are clearly confusing yourself on what actually happened. The Chief Fortune "fiasco" was dealt with as far as I know with players being paid - it was also at the same time the MiniVegas group was having issues with a group of advantage players and ended up in the rogue pit. This had little to do with Chief Fortune - and these players were paid. It's here somewhere in the forum.

Max never heard of this because he didn't start working here until Nov. 2007 nearly a year after the fact. And there were no PABs filed about this, I have a handful from the advantage players during this time (Nov/Dec 2006). Not once was there any mention of a flaw in a game.

It seems lately you've been making up stuff in your head and reporting it as fact. I would appreciate it if you'd knock it off. Thanks!

 

[timoboy1976]

Are we living in North Korea?

And you have proof of a cover up? C'mon, when you make bold statements like this, you need to back them up with evidence. I'm really disappointed that a long time member like you has donned the tin-foil hat.




It seems lately you've been making up stuff in your head and reporting it as fact. I would appreciate it if you'd knock it off. Thanks!

If I wasnt been so exited of winning, I could have hear voices from my head: "take a shot of this", eitherway, Im using HP pavillion and my one of two hard disks in broken so I cant take a shot.

If you test that megadeth's bonus play, you realize the main issue of error. Bonus round were just started, waiting me to spinn the wheel when I had that phonecall. So I came back to play, I was logged out for cause of youre passivity etc., and I logged back in and coninued JUST WHERE GAME LEFT ME and I spinn that wheel and so I just started to won.

I am very tired and depressed of this, but I had to post this.

 

[Nifty29]

If I wasnt been so exited of winning, I could have hear voices from my head: "take a shot of this", eitherway, Im using HP pavillion and my one of two hard disks in broken so I cant take a shot.

If you test that megadeth's bonus play, you realize the main issue of error. Bonus round were just started, waiting me to spinn the wheel when I had that phonecall. So I came back to play, I was logged out for cause of youre passivity etc., and I logged back in and coninued JUST WHERE GAME LEFT ME and I spinn that wheel and so I just started to won.

I am very tired and depressed of this, but I had to post this.

"All line up! Single file! KIM JONG STYLE!!"

(does the dance)

Sorry couldn't resist.

Timo....if you need someone to re-phrase your words before you post, just PM me.

 

[dionysus]

"All line up! Single file! KIM JONG STYLE!!"

(does the dance)

Sorry couldn't resist.

Timo....if you need someone to re-phrase your words before you post, just PM me.

love key of awesome

 

[LaHutti]

Really weird case ...and really weird, that MG can't seem to find anything.

1. There has to be a record of a bonus round won, on this players account, around that time, if the player was playing in real play.

2. If there was indeed a bonus round won, it must either have paid something, and MG should be able to see the amount won, and every spin in the bonus round, or it hasn't been played at all, and should still be available to play.

or

3. Something is seriously effed up over at MG.

Can't wait to see how this ends.

 

[vinylweatherman]

And you have proof of a cover up? C'mon, when you make bold statements like this, you need to back them up with evidence. I'm really disappointed that a long time member like you has donned the tin-foil hat.


There never was a cover up, and you are clearly confusing yourself on what actually happened. The Chief Fortune "fiasco" was dealt with as far as I know with players being paid - it was also at the same time the MiniVegas group was having issues with a group of advantage players and ended up in the rogue pit. This had little to do with Chief Fortune - and these players were paid. It's here somewhere in the forum.

Max never heard of this because he didn't start working here until Nov. 2007 nearly a year after the fact. And there were no PABs filed about this, I have a handful from the advantage players during this time (Nov/Dec 2006). Not once was there any mention of a flaw in a game.

It seems lately you've been making up stuff in your head and reporting it as fact. I would appreciate it if you'd knock it off. Thanks!

I am not making it up. I saw it for myself!

The rep was very coy and said the players were engaged in "illegitimate play that was not fraud". He and MGS knew exactly what had happend, and they covered up by refusing to discuss or reveal what happened. It was obviously too sensitive for MGS to admit that they had made such a blunder, and then left it live for around 3 months. The multi accounting was down to greedy players who were not satisfied with one chunk, but who realised they could trigger the error once every time they opened a new account. They didn't take any bonuses because they hoped their gameplay would not be under such scrutiny. It was eventually found out because the casinos saw so many players who joined, deposited without a welcome bonus, and always won, never to come back. They were paid because the casinos decided to pay up and take the hit rather than present the evidence that would have made the "malfunction voids play" rule stand up to scrutiny. Other advantage players simply got caught up in the event, doing whatever they did anyway.

A few players figured I had already worked it out, and made contact with me about a year later to spill the beans as to exactly how they were working the bug. As it WAS a bug, the casino should not have paid any of these players who had been caught exploiting it, so why did they?

I told Max about this at the meister meeting shortly after he had joined. He had never heard of it.

You can also be certain that any players who submitted a PAB on this issue would have been equally as coy about exactly how they had won. They would probably have been insistent that they had only played slots, didn't take a bonus, and bet £3 (€3, $3).

During the event, the game was yanked from a number of casinos without explanation, a remarkable event in itself as it was the first time I have ever known MGS casinos to REMOVE a game. The next time games were removed was late 2009, and again there was a vague "technical issues" email about it from Ladbrokes, with a promise that the issues would be fixed in a couple of weeks and the games restored. It's now 2012, so where are they? Some trickled back, but not all. Whatever the issue was, operators seem to have said "no, we don't want them restored". There have been a couple of explanations offered, but mostly a string of "we'll get back to you", which of course never happens.

If there is no cover up, how about MGS offer an explanation and say what happend in 2006, and how it was dealt with.

The latest cover up was of course LOTR suddenly vanishing and being replaced by Batman. MGS issued what turned out to be a bogus cover story about the game not being popular enough, but it turned out that for the past year the Tolkien estate had been piling pressure on the movie studio over their selling on rights to MGS that were not theirs to sell on, and that it had come to a head with the Tolkein estate moving to issue formal proceedings.

MGS could simply have stated truthfully that their rights to use the LOTR brand on their slot were going to expire, and hence they were forced to withdraw it, and later relaunch it with different branding, which they did. They didn't need to go into all the details of the dispute, legal threats, etc. It would have let players know that MGS were not feeding them BS about the game not being popular, and that player were losing a game they liked for reasons beyond the control of MGS.

It doesn't matter what and why this happened this way, it was still a cover up.

It is surprising common for there to be a corporate cover up over something embarrassing. Sometimes they get away with it, sometimes they don't. Every time a company is caught out by events, they get revealed as having covered something up.

As well as this, we have the Playtech "bonus abusers database" that is shared among all Playtech casinos, and which Playtech denied the existence of for years, till the Grand Duke rep got out of line and admitted to having used it when deciding which new players at his completely new casino had abused bonuses elsewhere and confiscating their winnings. The trail led back to Paragon International Customer Care, based in the Philipines, which was effectively a company controlled by Playtech and part owned by Playtech and one of the founders of Playtech. What they operate is similar to the Rival database, something Rival denied till the evidence for it was overwhelming.

Not all conspiracy theories turn out to be the imaginings of the tin foil hat brigade, even though at the time they sound utterly ridiculous.

 

[timoboy1976]

It's been a week now from any contact from Maxino and allmoust two weeks that mg's investigate without any results. Nothing.
Well, this has certainly losted my interesting with playing.

 

[NordicBet]

It's been a week now from any contact from Maxino and allmoust two weeks that mg's investigate without any results. Nothing.
Well, this has certainly losted my interesting with playing.

Hi Timoboy,

As the Head of Casino for NGG I represent Maxino so if you mean that you have not heard from Maxino support in over a week that is probably true as they know that Robin and I are taking care of this.

Please check your PM explaining the information that I have received from MG, if you would like to share this with the forum members that is up to you and you will see that I have offered to have someone translate my PM into your native language so everything is clear.

Thanks,

Ben

 

[timoboy1976]

Amen

So, my case is closed and I havent won any. I'd like to thank my (Obi-Wan) Ben, for all of help.
Me versus MG 0-6
Over and out.

I still know what happened, but my sayings with any proof doesn't matter. End of my playings.

 

[Nifty29]

So, my case is closed and I havent won any. I'd like to thank my (Obi-Wan) Ben, for all of help.
Me versus MG 0-6
Over and out.

I still know what happened, but my sayings with any proof doesn't matter. End of my playings.

So what did MGS say?

Will you allow Ben to tell us?

 

[vinylweatherman]

So, my case is closed and I havent won any. I'd like to thank my (Obi-Wan) Ben, for all of help.
Me versus MG 0-6
Over and out.

I still know what happened, but my sayings with any proof doesn't matter. End of my playings.

This illustrates the problem. MGS say you didn't win, you saw with your own eyes that you DID win, and a very substantial amount. MGS can't say WHY you were able to spin and obtain this win, so their position is effectively that because they have no record of it, you didn't.

The main issue with this argument is the presumption that their records are 100% accurate, and that no software error can have occurred that would have failed to register a legitimate win. We know for a fact that MGS software is not 100% error free, so how can they be 100% certain that this is a rare situation where a player DID win, but it was an error in their systems that failed to record it.

Don't be too sore though, because in 2006 this arrogant attitude turned around and bit them in the ass when an error they refused to even contemplate could have gotten live ran for 3 months until the evidence for it was so overwhelming that operators decided to mass audit thousands of accounts to see what the hell was going on with the software suddenly paying 100%+ RTP for such a long period. They uncovered a game malfunction, and this was at the server. Rather than not recording a win, the error recorded a win that never even took place. In effect, every time a player created an account, the slot Chief's Fortune was credited with 4 out of the 5 arrows towards the bonus round before a single spin had been played. This is how it was done. The game was massively +EV when the 5th arrow was played for and the bonus round taken. Once taken though, everything went back to normal, no trail to follow really unless one went very deep into the Playcheck records and found that the FIRST arrow won triggered the bonus, when it should have been the 5th. It worked only once on a new account, hence the massive surge in gnoming that occurred at the time of the event. The error was also present on Diamond Deal, but less of the RTP was contained in the bonus round, so this was not such an issue.

I saw it when I created an account with Grand Mondial (Then Grand Monaco), but didn't realise just what I had discovered because part of the welcome deal was a "mystery package", and so I wrongly assumed that part of this had been boosting this game so that I could get the bonus round easily, and the mystery was that I had to find it. Had this happened in 2004 when I had only just started, I would have been actively creating MGS accounts, and would have spotted the pattern and known what I had stumbled upon. Some players had, and they created accounts at every MGS casino they could think of. MiniVegas and Fortune Lounge were hit particularly hard because they had so many active skins, so they got hit multiple times by individual players, even without the use of multi accounting.

I could never have taken part since I already had accounts at almost every MGS casino. I also didn't think it would run for so long. Even when the bug was fixed, not all operators took this game back.

It is a shame you didn't take a screenshot of this win, as it would have shown what mode the game was in at the time. This would have been a key piece of evidence either way.

 

[Nifty29]

This illustrates the problem. MGS say you didn't win, you saw with your own eyes that you DID win, and a very substantial amount. MGS can't say WHY you were able to spin and obtain this win, so their position is effectively that because they have no record of it, you didn't.

The main issue with this argument is the presumption that their records are 100% accurate, and that no software error can have occurred that would have failed to register a legitimate win. We know for a fact that MGS software is not 100% error free, so how can they be 100% certain that this is a rare situation where a player DID win, but it was an error in their systems that failed to record it.

Don't be too sore though, because in 2006 this arrogant attitude turned around and bit them in the ass when an error they refused to even contemplate could have gotten live ran for 3 months until the evidence for it was so overwhelming that operators decided to mass audit thousands of accounts to see what the hell was going on with the software suddenly paying 100%+ RTP for such a long period. They uncovered a game malfunction, and this was at the server. Rather than not recording a win, the error recorded a win that never even took place. In effect, every time a player created an account, the slot Chief's Fortune was credited with 4 out of the 5 arrows towards the bonus round before a single spin had been played. This is how it was done. The game was massively +EV when the 5th arrow was played for and the bonus round taken. Once taken though, everything went back to normal, no trail to follow really unless one went very deep into the Playcheck records and found that the FIRST arrow won triggered the bonus, when it should have been the 5th. It worked only once on a new account, hence the massive surge in gnoming that occurred at the time of the event. The error was also present on Diamond Deal, but less of the RTP was contained in the bonus round, so this was not such an issue.

I saw it when I created an account with Grand Mondial (Then Grand Monaco), but didn't realise just what I had discovered because part of the welcome deal was a "mystery package", and so I wrongly assumed that part of this had been boosting this game so that I could get the bonus round easily, and the mystery was that I had to find it. Had this happened in 2004 when I had only just started, I would have been actively creating MGS accounts, and would have spotted the pattern and known what I had stumbled upon. Some players had, and they created accounts at every MGS casino they could think of. MiniVegas and Fortune Lounge were hit particularly hard because they had so many active skins, so they got hit multiple times by individual players, even without the use of multi accounting.

I could never have taken part since I already had accounts at almost every MGS casino. I also didn't think it would run for so long. Even when the bug was fixed, not all operators took this game back.

It is a shame you didn't take a screenshot of this win, as it would have shown what mode the game was in at the time. This would have been a key piece of evidence either way.

As Bryan said recently, you are passing off your opinion as fact once again.

How do you know that MGS can't explain the error? According to Ben and the OP, MGS in fact MGS DID provide an explanation, which Ben forwarded via PM to the OP.

Since we don't know what MGS said, how can you possibly make those statements?

We don't even know if it even IS a bug, so the chiefs fortune etc stuff is irrelevant.

History tells us that playcheck records EVERY bet that the server processes. If it ain't in playcheck, it did not happen.

 

[vinylweatherman]

As Bryan said recently, you are passing off your opinion as fact once again.

How do you know that MGS can't explain the error? According to Ben and the OP, MGS in fact MGS DID provide an explanation, which Ben forwarded via PM to the OP.

Since we don't know what MGS said, how can you possibly make those statements?

We don't even know if it even IS a bug, so the chiefs fortune etc stuff is irrelevant.

History tells us that playcheck records EVERY bet that the server processes. If it ain't in playcheck, it did not happen.

History tells us what happened in the past, not what cannot possibly happen in the future.

Chief's Fortune is an old game that had been around long before 2006. History told us that the game had no bugs, and there was no reason to expect this situation to change since old games are "set in stone" once they go live. On this occasion, history was wrong.

In this case, MGS can't explain what DID happen. All they can say is that they have no record, not that they have a record that shows that the win was not made in real money mode.

It appears that MGS have closed the case, and are not going to try and find out what caused this player to be 100% certain the win was valid. This means there IS a bug of sorts, one that can lead a player to see and believe they have made a win in real money mode when they haven't. This still needs to be addressed and alterations made so that players are in no doubt as to which mode they are playing in.

 

[NordicBet]

History tells us what happened in the past, not what cannot possibly happen in the future.

Chief's Fortune is an old game that had been around long before 2006. History told us that the game had no bugs, and there was no reason to expect this situation to change since old games are "set in stone" once they go live. On this occasion, history was wrong.

In this case, MGS can't explain what DID happen. All they can say is that they have no record, not that they have a record that shows that the win was not made in real money mode.

It appears that MGS have closed the case, and are not going to try and find out what caused this player to be 100% certain the win was valid. This means there IS a bug of sorts, one that can lead a player to see and believe they have made a win in real money mode when they haven't. This still needs to be addressed and alterations made so that players are in no doubt as to which mode they are playing in.

Hi VWM,

As your providing your own speculation into this without actually knowing the facts I will overview what has happened without giving away any personal detail as the OP has not given approval to post more information about the case.

In essence there is no record of this transaction in our BO, nor in the MG transaction records, including Playcheck. Every transaction that shows in our back office also reflects in the MG back office. As we control the wallet, there would be a record of the transaction leaving our wallet to place the bet with Microgaming, there is no such transaction, every transaction is finalized.

MG has closed the case because they have provided proof that the transaction never happened, their logs reflect what my logs reflect and there were no failed transactions. I have asked them to search the play money logs, although I am not sure if there is any record if the player is not logged in and how long they keep play money logs if the player is logged in as this has not ever come up before, at least with the casino's that I have been operating.

It states in the bottom of the game frame that you are playing for play money or real money, shows the balance, and I think it is quite clear. Perhaps you could suggest something that MG, Netent, Playtech , RTG and most other new game providers could do to make this more clear rather than basically saying that MG and the operators are trying to screw the players and this is a bug when it is more a display issue (apparently).

Ben

 

[vinylweatherman]

Hi VWM,

As your providing your own speculation into this without actually knowing the facts I will overview what has happened without giving away any personal detail as the OP has not given approval to post more information about the case.

In essence there is no record of this transaction in our BO, nor in the MG transaction records, including Playcheck. Every transaction that shows in our back office also reflects in the MG back office. As we control the wallet, there would be a record of the transaction leaving our wallet to place the bet with Microgaming, there is no such transaction, every transaction is finalized.

MG has closed the case because they have provided proof that the transaction never happened, their logs reflect what my logs reflect and there were no failed transactions. I have asked them to search the play money logs, although I am not sure if there is any record if the player is not logged in and how long they keep play money logs if the player is logged in as this has not ever come up before, at least with the casino's that I have been operating.

It states in the bottom of the game frame that you are playing for play money or real money, shows the balance, and I think it is quite clear. Perhaps you could suggest something that MG, Netent, Playtech , RTG and most other new game providers could do to make this more clear rather than basically saying that MG and the operators are trying to screw the players and this is a bug when it is more a display issue (apparently).

Ben

A display issue is still a bug. If the game displays something other than what is present on the server, there is a software bug somewhere.

The OP is not going to be happy that the position is that there is no record of the win, so case closed. Saying that no record means the bet was not placed is also speculation. It could be that no record exists because an unusual set of circumstances ocurred that triggered a bug that has never been triggered before. It may even be a bug that was accidentally introduced during an update.

The complicating factor is that the OP had to stop playing whilst they answered the phone, and when they returned they had to relaunch the game in order to complete a bonus round they had left. Given that the bonus round was still there, they relaunched the game in the same mode it was in when they left it. Secondly, if this was demo mode, surely relaunching the game would NOT have allowed play to continue from where it left off, instead, a fresh demo mode would have launched. A final point relates to how the game can remember it's last state when relaunched with no transaction record available to record said state.

There are still quite a few questions that need an answer, and this is not the time to close the case and walk away.

The OP's story has circumstances that are not consistent with them having been playing in demo mode. There is ONE circumstance that IS consistent with demo mode play, that being no record of the bet having been found.

It shouldn't be for players to now research what really happend, it should be for MGS to now look at this game, even the entire Quickfire system, and try out a few abnormal circumstances like this that could cause the software to suffer issues. This might reveal how a player could play in real mode, get the bonus round, get disconnected because they went and did something else, and then reconnect and find that a bonus round they won during real money mode can somehow be played off in demo mode, and then no longer be present in real mode. This could be a serious software flaw, and one that would not necesarily always go against the player.

I wouldn't be surprised if advantage players are already playing around with this to see whether this has opened an exploit in Quickfire.

 

[NordicBet]

A display issue is still a bug. If the game displays something other than what is present on the server, there is a software bug somewhere.

The OP is not going to be happy that the position is that there is no record of the win, so case closed. Saying that no record means the bet was not placed is also speculation. It could be that no record exists because an unusual set of circumstances ocurred that triggered a bug that has never been triggered before. It may even be a bug that was accidentally introduced during an update.

The complicating factor is that the OP had to stop playing whilst they answered the phone, and when they returned they had to relaunch the game in order to complete a bonus round they had left. Given that the bonus round was still there, they relaunched the game in the same mode it was in when they left it. Secondly, if this was demo mode, surely relaunching the game would NOT have allowed play to continue from where it left off, instead, a fresh demo mode would have launched. A final point relates to how the game can remember it's last state when relaunched with no transaction record available to record said state.

There are still quite a few questions that need an answer, and this is not the time to close the case and walk away.

The OP's story has circumstances that are not consistent with them having been playing in demo mode. There is ONE circumstance that IS consistent with demo mode play, that being no record of the bet having been found.

It shouldn't be for players to now research what really happend, it should be for MGS to now look at this game, even the entire Quickfire system, and try out a few abnormal circumstances like this that could cause the software to suffer issues. This might reveal how a player could play in real mode, get the bonus round, get disconnected because they went and did something else, and then reconnect and find that a bonus round they won during real money mode can somehow be played off in demo mode, and then no longer be present in real mode. This could be a serious software flaw, and one that would not necesarily always go against the player.

I wouldn't be surprised if advantage players are already playing around with this to see whether this has opened an exploit in Quickfire.

Hi,

We have investigated this for over a week, MG said that the transaction did not happen and I asked for the entire game logs which they provided. The game logs show no open bets or incomplete game rounds. The game logs show 2 occasions where there was a long time between game rounds, the game round prior to the break was complete on both occasions and the game round after was also complete. MG has a time limit where they will be timed out of the system as does Maxino, which it there to protect players that walk away without logging off.

If the player had a bonus round started, then answered the phone, then came back an hour later and was timed out the game round would have finished once the player logged back in and reloaded the game. There are no game rounds that are not complete at any time.

I would love to pay the player but cannot as there is no evidence of the game round or the bet being placed which is handled on our side and would have been reflected in our transaction logs.

If you feel that there is some major issue in the Quickfire system and apparently NGG's admin system and this has not been resolved satisfactory then please help the OP PAB. On the players consent I am more than happy to provide Bryan or Max all the information that I have, put them in touch with PWC who audited our systems and put them in contact with my MG rep although I am sure Bryan knows many people at MG that he can talk to about this case.

Have a nice evening,

Ben

 

[timoboy1976]

A display issue is still a bug. If the game displays something other than what is present on the server, there is a software bug somewhere.

The OP is not going to be happy that the position is that there is no record of the win, so case closed. Saying that no record means the bet was not placed is also speculation. It could be that no record exists because an unusual set of circumstances ocurred that triggered a bug that has never been triggered before. It may even be a bug that was accidentally introduced during an update.

The complicating factor is that the OP had to stop playing whilst they answered the phone, and when they returned they had to relaunch the game in order to complete a bonus round they had left. Given that the bonus round was still there, they relaunched the game in the same mode it was in when they left it. Secondly, if this was demo mode, surely relaunching the game would NOT have allowed play to continue from where it left off, instead, a fresh demo mode would have launched. A final point relates to how the game can remember it's last state when relaunched with no transaction record available to record said state.

There are still quite a few questions that need an answer, and this is not the time to close the case and walk away.

The OP's story has circumstances that are not consistent with them having been playing in demo mode. There is ONE circumstance that IS consistent with demo mode play, that being no record of the bet having been found.

It shouldn't be for players to now research what really happend, it should be for MGS to now look at this game, even the entire Quickfire system, and try out a few abnormal circumstances like this that could cause the software to suffer issues. This might reveal how a player could play in real mode, get the bonus round, get disconnected because they went and did something else, and then reconnect and find that a bonus round they won during real money mode can somehow be played off in demo mode, and then no longer be present in real mode. This could be a serious software flaw, and one that would not necesarily always go against the player.

I wouldn't be surprised if advantage players are already playing around with this to see whether this has opened an exploit in Quickfire.

Thats the point, they have prooved that they didnt find a bug and thats all. They dont have proof actually nothing. There is no software 100% sure, made by human.

IF I accidently played demo mode and I quaranteed that I was logged in. Demomode starts with 2k..., so IF I play with demomode once, twice MAX and won about 5100€, HOW CAN MG EXPLAIN that my credits was about 5134€??? If I was in demomode, democreds have been over 7k.

Mg can burried this, any players shouldnt.

But I have nothing evidence, just saying that i was certainly run overed by a bug and lost my winnings.
This is really ending of my plays.

 

[timoboy1976]

"MG has a time limit where they will be timed out of the system as does Maxino, which it there to protect players that walk away without logging off. "

That happened with every smoke i took while playing in new game. Happened never in another Maxinos games before, in a few minutes.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Thats the point, they have prooved that they didnt find a bug and thats all. They dont have proof actually nothing. There is no software 100% sure, made by human.

IF I accidently played demo mode and I quaranteed that I was logged in. Demomode starts with 2k..., so IF I play with demomode once, twice MAX and won about 5100€, HOW CAN MG EXPLAIN that my credits was about 5134€??? If I was in demomode, democreds have been over 7k.

Mg can burried this, any players shouldnt.

But I have nothing evidence, just saying that i was certainly run overed by a bug and lost my winnings.
This is really ending of my plays.

This is what I found. It seems they DO have some record of you playing, and that there were long periods between plays that would have caused you to be logged off. There is also no unfinished bonus game shown on the system, however this fits your story that you played it when you came back. It still leaves a question of how some of your bets are on the system, and some are not, yet you remember playing the game in real mode, and returning to the same game when logged off after the software disconnected you for being idle too long.

With no records, there is no way to unravel what happened by going over logs, but there IS a path that can be followed, which is to try to reproduce the circumstances to see if the bug can be recreated, and if they can, analyse the data from the recreation to find a way to investigate what happened originally.

There are other occasions where no record of an event is created due to a bug, and this is not confined to casinos. A well known UK Fruit machine "emptier" works because the machine can be made to pay out a win, yet not make a record that it has. It is an "emptier" because the game is compensated, and when in effect, the bug means that wins are not recorded, hence the compensation becomes ever more frantic to keep paying wins to bring the RTP up to specification, wins that themselves are not recorded. This quickly empties the machine of all coins, and leaves it so far below RTP that every spins is some kind of win.

I know, I have done it to the ACE "Payrise" machine after finding out the sequence of events that causes the bug. If land based real money games are prone to this kind of bug, then so are online casino games. They are all just software. Some bugs favour the player, some favour the operator. Some are not bugs as such, but are "manipulators" which take the software so far out of it's comfort zone that the programmer didn't think it would ever be taken there during the course of normal operation. Messed up connectivity is one such "out of the comfort zone" situation for online software. Although there are safeguards built in to cater for this, connectivity issues can have so many causes that there is a possibilty that something could go wrong. Players who have poor connectivity can even find themselves being accused of "cheating" by game providers.

A case in point is Virgin Media. Players were suffering from such a poor service that their sessions kept getting lagged or disconnected altogether. The game providers started banning some of these players because they cound not accept that they genuinely had such a poor service from a "leading ISP", and so they had to be disconnecting deliberately to gain an advantage over others, such as disconnecting when they realised they were about to be killed by an opponent, thus cheating the opponent out of the kill. The games were designed for the internet, but the poor connectivity suffered by Virgin Media subscribers pushed the software so hard that it couldn't manage the problem fairly.

In terms of trying to recreate the error, I know what I should be trying. In terms of determining whether an exploit also exists (having proven the error does occurr), I also know what to try, as do others. This is how fruit machine manipulators and emptiers get discovered.

 

[timoboy1976]

So what did MGS say?

Will you allow Ben to tell us?

Yes, ofcourse I allow.

 

[Nifty29]

BHere's a scenario that hasn't been considered by the "its a bug" ("It's a TRAP!!") crowd.

The OP says they often go for a cancer stick when they hit a bonus round. Quite normal, as is getting a coffee.

In this instance, it was the phone ringing. Now, what are the chances that the phone call came the SECOND the bonus round triggered in real play? Important fact. Keep it in mind.

Now, the OP states they have played the same game in fun mode a few times previously. Let's say he was playing along on another day before this and hit a bonus round. What does he do? Goes for a smoke/coffee/number 1 etc. I don't know about you, but I often get distracted whilst doing this, and sometimes forget about the game. If it was real money, I might log back in and keep playing. If its fun play, I generally wouldn't bother as it would be just a time waster anyway.

So, the FUN play version is waiting to play a bonus round. You with me?

The OP receives a phone call during the session in dispute. IMO it was NOT the exact same moment he hit a bonus round. If he HAD, there would be an unfinished bonus round in playcheck.....and there wasn't. I'll explain why:

He comes back from the phone call. He accidentally logs in to fun mode (I've done it before on quickfire casinos as, unlike download casinos, you choose the mode PER GAME when you launch it, rather than your account being "logged in" to a "fun account"........and what does he find waiting? The bonus round he left behind last time in fun mode. IMO, he did NOT hit the bonus round in real play the second he got the phone call. IMO he logged in after the call to FUN play and thought "cool!" and assumed he hit a bonus round as he got up to.answer the phone.

In the haste of some to point the finger at MGS, they have neglected any other explanation including human error. As for the suggestion that advantage players will be all over it.......ummmm can you explain that one, given that it doesn't show in playcheck and hence will not be paid out anyway? The only "advantage" is that you get to waste more time than anyone else. Chiefs fortune again? Fruities? Sheesh. Totally different scenarios and totally irrelevant.......but at least a good opportunity to tell everyone once again how one beat the fruities and saved MGS millions of dollars etc. Sorry......but *yawn*

I suggest the following to clear the matter up even further, seeing as some don't understand what "case closed" means:

1. Have the OP provide the exact time of the phone call he received.

2. MGS/Ben can check when the next login was after that time. If there is no real play login, then its because the OP accidentally logged in to FUN play. Otherwise, we have to believe that playcheck/quickfire failed TWICE I.e. in not registering the actual login, AND in not recording an entire bonus round.

Do we REALLY believe there are TWO seperate and unrelated bugs at play here? One.....maybe.....but two? I don't buy it.

The OP logged in to real play and found the winnings weren't there. What was the screen showing? It should show either the bonus round result, or the scatters that triggered it. Assuming the OP didn't keep playing (silly if they did), why not take a screenie right now?

If the symbols on the screen match the symbols shown in the last playcheck transaction, then it really IS case closed. Perhaps the OP can help us out with this?

 

[vinylweatherman]

BHere's a scenario that hasn't been considered by the "its a bug" ("It's a TRAP!!") crowd.

The OP says they often go for a cancer stick when they hit a bonus round. Quite normal, as is getting a coffee.

In this instance, it was the phone ringing. Now, what are the chances that the phone call came the SECOND the bonus round triggered in real play? Important fact. Keep it in mind.

Now, the OP states they have played the same game in fun mode a few times previously. Let's say he was playing along on another day before this and hit a bonus round. What does he do? Goes for a smoke/coffee/number 1 etc. I don't know about you, but I often get distracted whilst doing this, and sometimes forget about the game. If it was real money, I might log back in and keep playing. If its fun play, I generally wouldn't bother as it would be just a time waster anyway.

So, the FUN play version is waiting to play a bonus round. You with me?

The OP receives a phone call during the session in dispute. IMO it was NOT the exact same moment he hit a bonus round. If he HAD, there would be an unfinished bonus round in playcheck.....and there wasn't. I'll explain why:

He comes back from the phone call. He accidentally logs in to fun mode (I've done it before on quickfire casinos as, unlike download casinos, you choose the mode PER GAME when you launch it, rather than your account being "logged in" to a "fun account"........and what does he find waiting? The bonus round he left behind last time in fun mode. IMO, he did NOT hit the bonus round in real play the second he got the phone call. IMO he logged in after the call to FUN play and thought "cool!" and assumed he hit a bonus round as he got up to.answer the phone.

In the haste of some to point the finger at MGS, they have neglected any other explanation including human error. As for the suggestion that advantage players will be all over it.......ummmm can you explain that one, given that it doesn't show in playcheck and hence will not be paid out anyway? The only "advantage" is that you get to waste more time than anyone else. Chiefs fortune again? Fruities? Sheesh. Totally different scenarios and totally irrelevant.......but at least a good opportunity to tell everyone once again how one beat the fruities and saved MGS millions of dollars etc. Sorry......but *yawn*

I suggest the following to clear the matter up even further, seeing as some don't understand what "case closed" means:

1. Have the OP provide the exact time of the phone call he received.

2. MGS/Ben can check when the next login was after that time. If there is no real play login, then its because the OP accidentally logged in to FUN play. Otherwise, we have to believe that playcheck/quickfire failed TWICE I.e. in not registering the actual login, AND in not recording an entire bonus round.

Do we REALLY believe there are TWO seperate and unrelated bugs at play here? One.....maybe.....but two? I don't buy it.

The OP logged in to real play and found the winnings weren't there. What was the screen showing? It should show either the bonus round result, or the scatters that triggered it. Assuming the OP didn't keep playing (silly if they did), why not take a screenie right now?

If the symbols on the screen match the symbols shown in the last playcheck transaction, then it really IS case closed. Perhaps the OP can help us out with this?

The flaw in this theory is the idea that the bonus round was gained in fun mode, and was not seen again until the inadvertant login to fun mode after the phone call. The problem is a lack of any records from which to resurrect the previous slot state from a fun mode session. With nothing being saved by way of records for fun mode play, it is impossible to restore a fun mode session, only to create a new one.

The ONLY way therefore to log in and find a bonus round waiting to be played is in real mode, unless of course there is a bug in the software.

No matter what mode is involved, if a previous state was restored, there had to be a record from which to restore it, yet MGS can't find any records at all.

This can be tested.

Login to fun mode, and play till a bonus round hits. Leave said bonus round unplayed and disconnect. Reconnect later on and see if the bonus round can be played from where the previous session left off.

If it can, which would support the OP having played BOTH sides of the phone break in fun mode, then there IS record keeping of fun mode play, and the proof of this case would be to find those records and show that this whole event took place in fun mode. This would be case closed, even if not in the OP's favour.

 

[Nifty29]

The flaw in this theory is the idea that the bonus round was gained in fun mode, and was not seen again until the inadvertant login to fun mode after the phone call. The problem is a lack of any records from which to resurrect the previous slot state from a fun mode session. With nothing being saved by way of records for fun mode play, it is impossible to restore a fun mode session, only to create a new one.

The ONLY way therefore to log in and find a bonus round waiting to be played is in real mode, unless of course there is a bug in the software.

No matter what mode is involved, if a previous state was restored, there had to be a record from which to restore it, yet MGS can't find any records at all.

This can be tested.

Login to fun mode, and play till a bonus round hits. Leave said bonus round unplayed and disconnect. Reconnect later on and see if the bonus round can be played from where the previous session left off.

If it can, which would support the OP having played BOTH sides of the phone break in fun mode, then there IS record keeping of fun mode play, and the proof of this case would be to find those records and show that this whole event took place in fun mode. This would be case closed, even if not in the OP's favour.

OK...test away! We shall await the results.

AFAIk fun mode uses your pc as a "server", so that is why it may not be recorded on the casino server. I wonder if there is a way to extract the information from one's PC?

 

[vinylweatherman]

I have completed the first test.

I played till the bonus round was triggered, then disconnected by closing the browser.

I went away and did something else, and then returned to relaunch the game again. The bonus round was gone, and the demo session started afresh with 2000 demo credits, not from where I left off. It is therefore not possible to log into demo mode and pick up a bonus round won from a previous demo mode session that has been forgotten about.

It is even not possible to win a bonus round, disconnect for long enough to take a call, and log back in to find a bonus round waiting in fun mode.

If not fun mode, the only way this can happen is if the bonus round was hit in real mode, there was a disconnect, and real mode was logged back in. Only real mode seems able to restore a game to a previous state and allow continuation of a previous bet.

This now leaves possibilities as to how one can have a big win in a bonus round, yet this not be there when attempting to withdraw. Incidentally, how does one even get as far as attempting to withdraw in fun mode - I didn't see it.

I can only presume it was when the OP left the game after playing the bonus round that they found the 5K had not been recorded. In normal MGS slots, this can only happen if the player plays the "double up" gamble at the end of the bonus round by accident thinking they have clicked to collect and/or leave the game, but I did not see this option on Megadeth. This however, would leave a record on the server.

Another possibilty is that the client was logged in to real money mode, but within this the game launched in fun mode. In this case, the bonus round cannot have been restored from a previous fun mode session, but by coincidence was won on the first spin, making it appear to have always been there, with the OP presuming that this was because it had been won when taking the phonecall whilst leaving the game on autoplay.

I also noted that even in fun mode, the game DOES send game requests back to the server rather than everything taking place locally. It would appear that the server does not record these transactions, but merely produces the RNG output and sends it back. In order to do this, the server must know that the client is playing in fun mode so that it does not record the transactions. Surely therefore, there is a record of the server knowing that it is in fun mode, or does it just send out results to anything that sends in a request flagged as fun mode without making any kind of record of doing so.

A client in real mode launching games in both fun and real mode sounds rather messy to me, and risky too given that no software is perfect.